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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
27.09.2008
They Both Lost


They both lost tonight. We can go back and forth about whether McCain's anecdotes were more intimate or whether Obama's jabs were snappier. But beyond stylistic differences in the personalities they project from behind the podium (McCain's the weary parent, Obama's the sharp young know-it-all), I thought they both conspired to bring us a narrow, defensive, small debate.

That surprised me, because McCain and Obama are two of the most exceptional political figures of their generations, so expansive in their own visions of what they represent. But you wouldn't have known that if you were, say, a Martian tuning in to this campaign for the first time. Neither of them really faced the bailout head-on, sharply differentiated themselves from the other, or (most disappointing of all) tried to offer a big argument or central narrative about what's wrong with the country. Sometimes, their positions even seemed to converge. The two of them reminded me of a bickering older couple that's lived in the same familiar space so long -- the campaign -- that they've stopped arguing about the big things (do we move? have a baby?) and are now litigating the color of the salt shakers.

The whole debate was weirdly imitative. You brag about your soldier's bracelet, I'll brag about my soldier's bracelet! Obama was more afflicted with this imitation disorder -- he called for giving Georgia and Ukraine NATO Membership Action Plans "immediately," a stance Sarah Palin was derided for taking in her interview with Charlie Gibson, and McCain has already released a post-debate ad featuring clips of Obama agreeing with the senator from Arizona. But what happened to the aggressive, hot McCain who loved to rib Ahmadinejad? McCain sounded awkward and reined-in on Iran, while on meeting sketchy heads of state -- a question on which McCain's and Obama's instincts seem naturally and sharply opposed -- the two men sounded as though they'd nearly converged (yes, you reach out; no, you don't get on a plane as soon as Kim Jong Il sends you a text message). "I'm not parsing words," said Obama. "He's parsing words, my friends," retorted McCain. "I'm using the same words your advisers used," huffed Obama.

He's parsing words, he isn't parsing words, let's call the whole thing off. The two guys fought all night in the weeds, tussling Talmudically over Henry Kissinger, the difference between a "strategy" and a "tactic," Obama's exact earmark request, and our official designation for the Republican Guard, without stepping back to explain what was really at stake in their differences of opinion. The debate's small-bore quality made me wonder if they'd prepped for it by watching Sarah Palin's horribly vague interview with Katie Couric, breaking out in a cold sweat, and vowing to drop as many figures as possible.

The discussion was often backward-looking, defensive, and record-oriented. Here's Obama: "Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess ... that we were potentially going to have a problem." And here's McCain: "I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." And Obama: "Six years ago, I stood up and opposed this war." ... And McCain: "I stood up, and I voted against [Marines going into Lebanon]." (See, I told you this debate was imitative.) At one point, during a particularly excruciating McCain stemwinder on how nobly he's taken care of veterans, the friend I was watching the debate with -- a McCain fan -- wailed, "Oh, stop patting yourself on the back!"

Some back-patting is okay. I'd rather see a candidate run on his record than on empty promises. But neither McCain nor Obama succeeded in making the connection between what they have done and what they want to do during their hypothetical presidencies. Just what do they want to do, anyway? Eighty percent of Americans think their country is on the wrong track, but they're also unsure of why, exactly, the ship is so endangered, and how to right it. It's these candidates' job to suggest at least the beginnings of an answer. But tonight, they barely uttered their campaigns' basic mantras, "straight talk" and "change." Restricted by their need to appeal to a narrow slice of independents, they battled like two people trapped in a tight cell, tussling over whether $18 billion is a big or a small number.

When McCain momentarily tried out a grand theory of what ails the country and his argument for how he can help it heal, here was what came out: "Reform, prosperity, and peace, these are major challenges to America ...It's well known I have not been elected Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate nor with the administration."

Very inspiring. Because when I think of who I want at the helm during these treacherous times, it's Grouchy Smurf.

Maybe my expectations were too high. If so, then Obama won, by default. I wish both candidates had offered, as David Brooks put it, an "overarching argument" for their soon-to-be-non-hypothetical presidencies. But McCain was the guy who had to do that. One, he's behind. Two, his whole campaign has been based around game-changing, rules-breaking moves. To maintain consistency, he needed to break a little ground. He played it way too cautious, and way too dour. The country may be sick, but he looked like he was already holding the funeral. The candidates' joint failures of inspiration could be only McCain's undoing.

--Eve Fairbanks

Posted: Saturday, September 27, 2008 1:20 AM with 64 comment(s)

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aeromonas said:

Weird take on the debate, Eve.  Yeah, there was nothing to get particularly fired up about, but is that what you look for in a debate?  And in a foreign policy debate in particular?  You called this a "joint failure of inspiration," but do you seriously want "inspired" leadership with respect to foreign policy?  It was George Bush's "inspiration" that landed us in the Iraq quagmire.  

The candidates had on their f.p. plates several very specific challenges--Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia--precisely because the nation and the next President will face these same very specific challenges.  And as televised debates go, there was quite a lot of meat on the bone of their responses with respect to these specific challenges.  Sparks didn't exactly fly, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that with the exception of Iraq, the candidates aren't too far apart on the f.p. issues.  I thought the longish duration, the open format, and Jim Lehrer's evenhanded, substantive moderation made this all around one of the better presidential debates in my recollection.  

I was, I think, the first one on this site to call the debate a draw.  (I see that tomeg strongly disagrees, but his/hers appears to be a minority view.) I stand by that, and like most commentators around my soft hunch is that a draw favors Obama.  But to return to the quality of the debate as a whole, I think your expectations were way to high and your negative assessment way too harsh.

blogs.tnr.com/.../storytelling.aspx]

September 27, 2008 1:53 AM

Nippers said:

Eve,

Best post-debate take on TNR so far.

September 27, 2008 2:03 AM

rozenson said:

Astute observations, Eve. It was a very confined debate, with really only Obama's talking about deregulation as making a broader point about the approaches of the two parties.

September 27, 2008 2:05 AM

dylanposer said:

Eve,  

Truth or dare?  Truth?  Oh... okay.  Um (tilts head towards ground)... I kinda, you know... was nodding off at about :50 into the speech.  I thought this might be due to an otherwise benign narcolepsy was manifesting its ugly head--I did it on the train after work earlier this evening, too.  But now, I just don't know.  Hehe (blushes, trains eyes on shoes), thanks for, ya know, hehe, puttin' things in a sorta perspective.  Hehehehe.

(blushes again)

Best post of the night,  Again.  

September 27, 2008 2:08 AM

austinexpat said:

Did you miss the beginning of the debate, Eve?  Because I quite clearly got the impression from Obama's very first answer that his "grand theory" of what ails the country is, quite simply, that Republicans like George Bush, aided and abetted by John McCain, have been in charge of it for seven years.  I mean, it's not like we all simultaneously contracted mono or something.  Obama placed the blame, as challengers must, on the party in power -- then pointed out that his opponent not only showed up to that party but helped mix the drinks, and finally laid out the bones of a plan to turn it around.  That's as much of a world-view as you need to win an election, and that was his mission tonight.

Because this was a debate, not a speech.  Both candidates were answering (or failing to answer in some cases) specific questions about specific issues, and launching off into rhetorical flights of fancy or Grand Unified Theories would have been more than a little ridiculous.  When you have two minutes and change to make your case and you don't know what questions are coming, there's absolutely no reason to start burbling on about the purpose and destiny of our great nation.

And far from converging, I think on the most basic issue of foreign policy, Obama absolutely distinguished himself from McCain -- if not all Democrats from all Republicans.  Both candidates' responses made the dichotomy clear: Democrats are eager to talk to our enemies, but reluctant to send troops to their countries unless we get exactly what we want out of the exchange.  Whereas Republicans are eager to send troops to our enemies' countries, but reluctant to talk to them unless we get exactly what we want out of the exchange.  Not to put too fine a point on it, that's why I'm a Democrat rather than a Republican.

The idea that McCain thinks he can score a point by pettishly ridiculing Obama's principle of engagement with a hostile regime, while simultaneously attempting to give himself a free pass for being Totally Dead Wrong on the decision to invade Iraq by trumpeting his support of the too-little, too-late surge and capping it with a declaration that the American people fundamentally do not believe and will not accept -- "we are winning in Iraq" -- just goes to show how out-of-touch he and his party really are.  After four years of bleeding in the desert, Americans are more than ready to give talking their way out of conflicts a try.

For me, the defining moment of this debate was Obama saying, "John McCain likes to act as if the war began in 2007.  It began in 2003.  And John, you were wrong about the WMDs, wrong about the potential for sectarian violence, and wrong about us being greeted as liberators."  Yammering on about the surge and preconditions is pretty small beer after that bombshell -- which, as you'll recall, went uncontested by McCain.

After half a week's acting as if he was terrified by the thought of getting into a room with Barack Obama and holding a debate on foreign policy, tonight's competent and confident performance by John McCain probably did exceed expectations.  But when foreign policy is your strength and you've made your entire case about belittling an opponent who matched you blow for blow in your own house, you can't be all that happy about (possibly) notching a 1-point win.  Especially with two debates left to go, neither of which will be on territory as friendly to your case as this one.

September 27, 2008 2:10 AM

woland said:

Great post Eve.  Very boring debate really.  But I think that's what Obama wanted.  He just wanted to prove he could hold his own with McCain on McCain's strong suite foreign policy and Obama did that.  There are two more debates that will entirely focus on the economy and social issues and Obama will slam him on those.  

September 27, 2008 2:18 AM

kkeown said:

Jeez, Eve, I didn't think it was that bad. It seems like pundits get fixated on the soundbity lines they can play the next day and twenty years from now. It didn't seem to me like there was a really salient one, so maybe that's why the punditry sounds divided and frustrated. Don't get me wrong, I'd like Obama to put McCain away as much as the next Dem, and perhaps he is too cautious sometimes. But I think it was one of his best debate performances. He seemed confident, his ideas on the economy and the foreign policy issues were fairly cogent, and he didn't get rattled at any point. I thought McCain seemed a bit cranky, and his obsession with bringing every economic issue back to earmarks was was a little bizarre. If you spend your waking hours cursing earmarks, McCain is your guy. It was just weird that McCain wanted to talk more about bear DNA than Bear Stearns. Yes, he came alive during the foreign policy segments, but he didn't score a big takedown. McCain needed to shake it up. He didn't. Obama needed to NOT screw up. He didn't. Advantage: Obama

September 27, 2008 3:51 AM

bdgreen said:

I thought this was the most adult and interesting debate I've ever seen in my entire life of watching presidential debates. But I hate theatrics and I'm interested in the candidates' ideas. I also can't give the slightest credence to this "but what would they DO" nonsense -- how many times does Obama need to deliver freaking enumerated lists of his priorities until this response is dealt with? Is the problem that he hasn't made up an exciting plan for it? The Great Obama Forward? The Call to Baracktion?

I always come away from debates with a three-hundred-and-sixty degree opinion from everyone else, so congratulations, Eve, you are no doubt at the forefront of debate analysis and your take will be the CW tomorrow. That's not even snark, you're probably right. Other posters here think so.

But I thought it was a shockingly thoughtful and antic-free debate, almost something from the past. Both candidates are under dire threat of public dismissal if they show anger, so I'd expect more of these "boring" debates, if that's the word. But I was not bored. I actually found myself not tuning out during every bit of McCain's nonsense, as I'm prone to do.

Spending freeze except for the military and vets? Seemed like a risky idea, like saying: "What domestic priorities would I cut? Don't be stupid, I have no domestic priorities! They can all hang!" Obama grudgingly put renewable energy on his hypothetical back burner. Obama suggested immediate NATO membership for Russia's regional rivals -- hawkish as hell for Obama. Didn't find myself bored at all. But I accept that I'm an outlier.

September 27, 2008 5:20 AM

Robert Powell said:

In typical campaign mode, I'll second Aeromonas'  points while agreeing that Eve nailed it--if you get a tie, almost by definition both teams lost an opportunity if not the game.

Obama needed to demonstrate that he understands the ongoing strategic importance of Iraq as distinct from Afghanistan. He didn't, and allowed McCain to score unanswered points on the nature and lessons of the war in both places.

McCain had an opportunity to point out that Obama's remark that the war started in 2003 rather than in 2007 demonstrates ignorance, perhaps due to inexperience, of the crucial fact that the war started in 1991 and was about rather more than Osama bin Laden.

To the extent that this debate succeeded as journalism, which I think it did, it's attributable in my view to the exemplary performance of Jim Lehrer.

September 27, 2008 6:07 AM

teplukhin2you said:

McCain sounded calm, in control, normal. Obama sounded competent, in control, normal. Listening to them on the radio made me think I was listening to GHW Bush vs Paul Tsongas or Bill Bradley. I yawned and turned it off.

Neither one's terribly deep or inspiring, but either one will do a decent job. Or as decent a job as can be expected given the many and massive constraints the next POTUS will face.

Assuming the financial mess doesn't clear anytime soon, I'd guess McC will hammer his spending freeze proposal and the virtues of divided gov't. I don't think he can scare people about Obama's f-p naivete any more.

September 27, 2008 6:39 AM

teplukhin2you said:

Re "joint failures of inspiration," I think the naton could do with less inspirational theatrics and more simple competence. Just don't f*** things up. It's an extraordinarily complex world that's taking shape, and whoever tries to impose an "overarching argument" upon this complexity is certain to get it wrong.

Case in point is the financial mess that neither Paulson nor anyone else seems to have much visibility into, let alone clue as to how to unwind it in a semi-orderly fashion. Case #2 is Iran (ditto re lack of visibility), #3 is Pakistan (ditto ditto), #4 is China's economic/financial strategy...

September 27, 2008 6:45 AM

teplukhin2you said:

btw, great job, Eve. One of the best posts I've seen on The Stump. Level, balanced, no screaming of those insipid McLiar!!! snarks that send TNR's blogs Kos-ward with increasing and disturbing regularity these days.

Thanks, more like this pls.

September 27, 2008 6:47 AM

BHLnyc said:

Interesting analysis, if way too glum.

Maybe the debate felt "small" to you, but after the last two months of sniping about lipstick on pigs, about how many houses and cars each owns, about who's the bigger celebrity, about whose vice presidential nominee had the bigger gaffe and about which media outlet is in the tank for whom, I found it was hugely refreshing not to have to rehash this point-scoring nonsense.

By comparison, this debate was practically on par with Lincoln-Douglas.

September 27, 2008 6:59 AM

BHLnyc said:

Tep says: "Neither one's terribly deep or inspiring, but either one will do a decent job."

That's exactly what the voters thought in 2000 (I certainly did). And they were wrong. Big time. Don't be lulled into ignoring the big red flashing danger signs about McCain. His selection of Palin is, quite simply, as disqualifying a judgment as any that any candidate has ever made during a presidential campaign.

September 27, 2008 7:11 AM

teplukhin2you said:

What BHL said. In the midst pf the internet campaign's noise, hysteria, and obnoxious 24/7 Sullivan-ism, a  straightforward and boringly COMPETENT discussion like this is like a few lungfuls of fresh air.

The biggest victory goes to Jim Lehrer and other media grownups. Maybe boring old quality media shall rise again. Or at least well-funded strictly nonpartisan media like PBS and the Christian Science Monitor. This is good news.

September 27, 2008 7:20 AM

teplukhin2you said:

BHL = "That's exactly what the voters thought in 2000 (I certainly did)."

I didn't. I knew Bush was a lightweight. I voted for Gore.

September 27, 2008 7:22 AM

aeromonas said:

Robert Powell: "Obama needed to demonstrate that he understands the ongoing strategic importance of Iraq as distinct from Afghanistan. He didn't."

Well, maybe Obama needed to make such a demonstration to solidify your support for him RP, but it's highly debatable whether the larger electorate expects any such thing.

Also, there's nothing inconsistent about a recognition of Iraq's strategic importance and the belief that we should withdraw our forces from the country.  Obama may have felt that to belabor this point would only serve to muddy his message and sow confusion.

September 27, 2008 8:39 AM

lesserliz said:

The debate reinforced my view that there is no significant difference between the two major parties and neither came off with significant advantage although a tie keeps Obama in the fight to later deliver the knockout. McCain's hysterial implications that talking to Iran=2nd Holocaust served to send overt and subliminal signals to voters on who is most likely to start new horrible Bushian premptive wars.

September 27, 2008 8:57 AM

boxofrox said:

I didn't watch. I don't much care. At this point in the campaign McCain is going down in flames. Over the last two weeks Obama has met the financial crisis with a semblance of coherence. If only for appearances sake. He was willing to put a place marker with his own thematic bias out for folks to lean on. He has appeared more competent and presidential.

Powell: You know I'm with you on foreign policy. I think that both campaigns have decided to stick to their simplistic positions for the sake of public consumption. Personally both positions are salted with more than a bit of condescension. Bowing to campaign pragmatics is insulting to all. In McCain it has been obscene. In Obama it has been palliatively and resourcefully dishonest. Atlantic has a good piece on what has turned the Iraq war. It has indeed turned and all due credit to the brave, courageous, and decent servicemen and women who have made it happen.

Tep. As a market veteran let me reassure you that Paulson and Bernanke had no choice but to put forth their proposal as such. The markets were poised for a profound meltdown in the most crucial sectors. All else would have followed. From a purist perspective the markets would indeed take care of themselves. It might take a while but there are plenty folks out there with the capacity to scavenge the carnage and make themselves fat at the expense of the fallen. It's just that very, very few would like the terms. It would be a loser for the large majority of people. As it is contingencies are valid and proper. Perhaps inconvenient and somewhat mitigating to the ability to press a solution with leverage and clarity. Necessary nonetheless.

September 27, 2008 9:21 AM

michael said:

A good review of a debate. I do not believe Barack approached this as a debate.

This wasn't a typical contest to meet expectations, Obama had to shatter preconceptions, convictions and prejudice. (How many viewers believe he's Muslim?)

Consider: On policies an issues? Barack is already ahead, it is not 'what' he presented but how he 'won' when people said, "Yeah, (he's not alien, he's not messianic, he's not green).". Barack is favored on the issues but only when people accept him.

It was not insignificant or a simple matter of style that McCain didn't face Obama. He seemed pained, sheepish and if he did face Obama, I could imagine Barack jab a finger and say, "Isn't that right!" McCain was a soldier who was being reprimanded.

So I don't judge each person's score because Obama had an easier and more difficult challenge. He had to knock down all the vague but sticky accusations dating back to Hillary. "He had this, McCain had that and Barack had a speech." It was McCain who relied on slogans and his past and Obama shredded, scolded and then pivoted to "And that's why things are fucked up, people know it and you're going out the door with Bush-Cheney."

Barack didn't win the debate as much as he met his challenger as promised, "If he want's to discuss _______ , that's a debate I welcome.". Barack was eager and leaning forward, McCain was in the docket. Then, Barack prosecuted McCain's mutiny and John seemed pretty damn guilty.

September 27, 2008 9:37 AM

boxofrox said:

Addendum: I believe the over all tenor of McCain's campaign has effectively defeated the very strengths he once enjoyed. I am in agreement with his Iraq stance and general foreign policy disposition. I also think that he is to be given credit for his determination in the face of Obama and his fellow defeatists attitude toward the Middle East and specifically Iraq. Yeah. I know there are those out there who think that it possible to be a smarter advocate for liberty. It is only a basic unbending disposition to its principle that really has any currency.

September 27, 2008 9:57 AM

fougasseu said:

Obama was the clear winner.

I've fired many McCains. I grew up working for these guys - smart, feisty, terrible listeners, unable to work with women or teams - and when I took over the company, I moved them out or moved them into finance.

People like McCain (i.e., fundamentalists, Talk Radio hosts, most Republicans, guys who keep their lawn tractors spotless, cigar store owners, etc.) appreciate that authoritarian, my-way-or-the-highway command-contral style of managing.

The rest of us, who actually have to function in the real world, only work for these guys if they pay us a lot of money.

I hire managers, looking for leaders. McCain needs Kool-Aid drinkers or highly-paid toadies to succeed. And generally, these guys aren't terribly successful (i.e., Donald Rumsfeld).

I can see people from all walks of life, of differing backgrounds, working tirelessly for Obama because Obama listens, builds alignments, and can deliver. Just look at his campaign.

Andrew Sullivan had it right, this is a generational election.

Last night was like watching a Bush or a Cheney or a Rumsfeld debating Obama. Time for these wrong-headed know-it-alls to leave the stage. Time for a Change.

September 27, 2008 9:58 AM

michael said:

Good point, tep. The night went to Lehrer.

He wasn't out to lay traps and Jim didn't control the match. He posed simple, broad questions and got out of the way.

Perhaps Barack took advantage of the open ended nature? It wasn't a town hall were McCain could volley slogans and not be challenged. Obama felt comfortable addressing McCain and Barack's first task was to put him down without being shrill or threatening. Any moderator I can think of would have tried to steer one or the other candidates in one direction and Jim only said, "More, keep going!" rather inject conflict or walk them through a minefield.

But Obama will have to face a McCain who knows he can't stand there and take it. Both will adjust so it will be interesting to see how Barack responds to a McCain who can't afford to be scolded. This has been compared to a boxing match but it was really one round in a match.

Both will modify their style-strategy but only a hands-off moderator allowed them to maneuver. Or, as in other sports? Lehrer decided  "It's in their hands, I'll let them play.". I hope they're allowed the same freedom and don't have a third party running the show.

It may not have been Lincoln-Douglas? This wasn't a two man press conference.

September 27, 2008 10:08 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

OK, I'll be the goof in the room, what else is new.  I disagree with you Eve.  

I agree that they both dodged the bailout stuff, but that was smart on both their parts.  Negotiations started again at 9:00 am this morning.  Best to not step on that.  I'm also pissed no one brought up Constitutional issues - remember that?  We the people etc?  I'm sick of pundits not caring about that. What are these candidates plan's fpr habeus corpus?  Hamden?  This is the stuff has has demolished our standing in the world.  This is not a small issue.

Anyway, Obama is offended by Republican ideology and the priorities they have, he made that clear all night.  McCain doesn't like greed -- very big of him. A total dodge.  He's learned nothing from this.

Yes, I wish Obama was a more emotional guy at times about being offended, but he's not. But I saw almost no "convergence" on anything philosophically or pratically. Can someone please name me one issue (except torture and only Obama brought that up) where the two converged?  One theme or ideological inclination that converged?  They both have said in other venues that they'd close Guantanomo thank GOD, but not in this debate.

There is a clear difference between the two on economic values and approach to the world - night and day.  

I think you watched this as a super-smarty pants pundit, of which you are the tops Eve - one of America's best and the TNR posters too - a bunch of super smarty pants types I always learn so much from.  

But very few people live in DC or know anywhere near as much as you or TNR yakkers do.  People mostly see the big picture of priorities, approach and demeanor.  In that sphere, where most of us live - there is little to nothing in common between them.

September 27, 2008 10:20 AM

fougasseu said:

It wasn't Lincoln-Douglas. It was Patton vs. John Kennedy.

September 27, 2008 10:23 AM

michael said:

fougasseu  wrote: "It wasn't Lincoln-Douglas. It was Patton vs. John Kennedy."

Or? "There are four ways of doing things: the right way, the wrong way, the Navy way, and my way. If they do things my way, we'll get along." Lieutenant Commander Phillip Francis Queeg.

People respect the honor-duty pitch from John but this is not a nation rooted in some sort of Prussian ideals. If anything defines the blue collar worker it's the refusal to wear a suit and tie uniform. Given the choice of having their boss be an ex-officer or an ex-community organizer...Well, most of the middle is seeking direction and motivation and not a set of rules based on discipline. Sure, older folks like the sound of someone giving orders...Till they find out someone is telling *them* what to do.

September 27, 2008 10:51 AM

tomeg said:

Dude, it was a debate, not a seminar. Debates per se don't explore issues on a grand scale. They are more like negotiations with an enemy. S(he) say, (s)he say, and after what seems an interminable ping-pong match, one side or other changes up a nanometer, and maybe for a couple of volleys it's interesting. Or it's not.

The point of debate, as Wm. F. Buckley succinctly put it, "is to win."

September 27, 2008 11:10 AM

jacobt1 said:

gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/.../devastating-dems-refuse-to-reform.html

At this 2004 hearing Democrat after Democrat, including Rep. Barney Frank and Rep. Maxine Waters, covered up for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Democrats covered up and killed legislation that would reform their cash cows.

Obama has received $105,849 from troubled mortgage giants Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae:

September 27, 2008 11:11 AM

jacksondyer said:

Only voters decide who loses and who wins in a political debate.

Both candidates stretched some points and misrepresented others but only Obama told a lie about himself.

When McCain pointed out that Obama said shortly after Russia invaded Georgia that he had blamed both sides in the conflict the Democratic candidate said that he hadn’t, but called Russia the aggressor. This is patently false:

Here is the NY Times account of what he said at the time:

“Candidates’ Reactions to Georgia Conflict Offer Hints at Style on Foreign Affairs “

By ELISABETH BUMILLER and MICHAEL FALCONE

LAS VEGAS —

“When Russian troops rolled into South Ossetia on Friday, Senator John McCain’s response was immediate and tough.

Russia had crossed “an internationally recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia” and should “unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces,” said Mr. McCain, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, in a statement delivered at an airport.

Senator Barack Obama, his Democratic rival, trod more carefully, a characteristic of his approach to foreign affairs. In an initial statement released by his campaign, he did not directly blame Russia and instead offered a more measured response, which largely echoed the official comments of the European Union, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and President Bush.

“Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war,” Mr. Obama said in the statement, which focused on negotiations and concluded that “all sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia.”

Mr. Obama did harden his rhetoric later on Friday, shortly before getting on a plane for a vacation in Hawaii. His initial statement, an adviser said, was released before there were confirmed reports of the Russian invasion. In his later statement, Mr. Obama said, “What is clear is that Russia has invaded Georgia’s sovereign — has encroached on Georgia’s sovereignty, and it is very important for us to resolve this issue as quickly as possible.””

www.nytimes.com/.../10react.html

Here is a columnists’ view of his comment at the time:

“Facing the bear - Obama didn't have impressive reaction to Russian invasion”

By JAY AMBROSE / Scripps Howard

Monday, August 18, 2008

“After Russia invaded Georgia with the same Soviet-style, bullying ways the world grew to hate during the Cold War, we got a chance to see how Barack Obama reacts to a crisis. He blinked.

He called for diplomacy and restraint by Russia, which was OK, but he also called for restraint by Georgia, which is a bit like seeing a 200-pound man whacking a 130-pound woman and saying, "Excuse me, lady, but please don't hurt this guy."”

www.courierpress.com/.../no-headline---18a08ambrose-col

 Can someone who lied so brazenly be said to have won the debate or even to have tied it? I don’t think so.

September 27, 2008 11:17 AM

vanwurs said:

Regarding your complaint that it wasn't about anything "big" and nobody "inspired" or offered any original insignts or original ideas.......

Something nobody seems to have noticed or commented on was Barack's extended riff on oil and how our dependence on oil makes Putin, Chavez, and a whole host of bad guys more important than they need to be.  He could have made this point a little more cogently, but the very fact that he made it all, and dwelled on it, and tried to convey the idea that an energy reality that makes oil (all oil, not just "foreign" oil...and he made that point when he pointed out that "domestic" oil is a pretty insignifigant few drops in the big oil bathtub.) the essential fuel of a global economic machine makes troublesome folks more important and powerful then they need to be.  Putin without oil is just Yeltsen with nice pecs.  Chavez without oil is a second rate Castro without any cold war leverage.

Iran without oil is an insignifigant player in the Middle East, let alone the larger world.  Without oil we aren't messing around in Osama Bin Laden's precious "holy places" in the first place and we're not the big enemy of Islamic Jihadists.  

That's a big and original idea, and Barack spent some time introducing it and developing it.  

September 27, 2008 11:34 AM

kbecker said:

Uhh... Fairbanks, you've made up your mind who you're going to vote for, right? Then why should anyone care that much on what you think about the debate? This was about the independents and Obama won them over.

September 27, 2008 11:39 AM

jacksondyer said:

"This was about the independents and Obama won them over. " kbecker

Really? How do you know?

Oh yes, one limited "poll" of instant reaction told you so.  

Hope springs eternal in becker's breast.

September 27, 2008 12:11 PM

lonestarpedro said:

Well said Eve.

Didn't really lay the groundwork for governing and building support for their vision either.

September 27, 2008 12:23 PM

AlanSP said:

I agree with aeromonas, tep, RP, and others who noted what a great job Jim Lehrer did.  I wish he'd been there for some of the high profile primary debates.  It's really refreshing to hear questions about real policy issues instead of all the peripheral crap we see so much of.  And I like that he tried to push them when they both attempted to dodge the question about how their agendas would have to change in light of the financial crisis.

September 27, 2008 12:43 PM

kbecker said:

jackson- So every poll is wrong huh? That's rather sad.

September 27, 2008 1:42 PM

williamyard said:

I tend to be easily pleased, perhaps more so than Ms. Fairbanks. Then again, I prefer low-scoring pitchers' duels to ERA-busting slugfests. A universe is born, expands, and burns itself out in the time between the second and third pitch to the clean-up hitter with two outs and a guy on third in the bottom of the eighth of a scoreless game. It's easier to notice as we age and everything slows down.

I enjoyed the debate. I watched the first half-hour on CNN's website and listened to the rest on XM's POTUS channel as I drove home.

It was a "proud to be an American" moment. Both those guys could have been better, I suppose, but each of them individually--their contrasting stories and styles--and the two of them clinching and sparring as one unit reminded me how fortunate we are to have our system of governance.

I'm happy for Ole Miss. The debate for them must have been a cathartic act of public grace, like during Mass on Holy Thursday when we line up to wash each others' feet, kneeling then seated, giving then receiving.

Both men wore neckties. I hate neckties, and will wear one only under duress. But in this case it's a job interview, so they had to dress up. Have you ever interviewed someone for a job? What an honor it is to do so, to be asked to pass judgment on someone who wants to work for you. An unusual, almost archaic ritual of dominance and submission. In this case job applicants who will go so far as to debase themselves by wearing a necktie. Politicians are whores, and as y'all who know me a bit will confirm, I mean that in a good way. In this regard I wanted to reach out to McCain, the more flustered of the two, with his constant nervous chuckle, and say, there there, John, it's okay, we may not all agree with you but you can relax, we don't bite.

I particularly liked the fact that they both stayed true to themselves, to the classes to which they both appear iconic. Lehrer (amused, unflappable, terrific) kept trying to bait them into directly confronting each other. I think they are far less comfortable doing so than allowing their surrogates to do the dirty work. They are both friends of democracy; Obama at one point stopped himself from responding to one of McCain's criticisms by siding with Lehrer who had been trying to start a new line of questioning. In other words, Obama caught a couple jabs after the bell but played by the rules. I was reminded that patriots can be found in the cockpit of a fighter jet as well as behind the bar in a court of law.

That whole spat about talking to Iran without "preconditions" struck me as ironic, because I'd bet my next paycheck that the impetuous McCain would be much more likely to order Air Force One to be fired up in the middle of the night to fly off to secretly meet with somebody or other than would the circumspect, process-obsessed Obama. Then again, so much of this election has been about Bachelor Number One accusing Bachelor Number Two of being Bachelor Number One.

September 27, 2008 2:18 PM

fougasseu said:

Put Curtis LeMay, Nathan Jessep ("A Few Good Men"), Bull Meechum ("The Great Santini"), Don Rumsfeld, and Col. Cathcart ("Catch-22") in a blender set on high, and out comes that feisty muzzle-loader, John McCain.

Thank God the brilliant Jim Lehrer gave them room to display themselves, to not try to upstage them (i.e., George Stephanopoulos), and let America watch them in action. The generational differences could not be more stark.

McCain isn't a Republican, he's a martinet.

Time for the bullies to exit, time for leadership and statesmanship.

Time for a Change.

September 27, 2008 3:17 PM

lesserliz said:

Did McCain actually go through the whole thing and not mention his POW days or did I doze off and miss it?

September 27, 2008 4:30 PM

icarusr said:

lesser - he did.  That was his closing line.

September 27, 2008 4:50 PM

williamyard said:

I didn't hear it either, les. He could have worked it in, so either he forgot or he thinks (has been told) that it's wearing a little thin amongst those he's still fishin' for.

September 27, 2008 4:52 PM

esmense said:

Good post. I was beginning to despair that anyone at TNR ever had anything to say that reflected some observation of reality rather than knee jerk promotion of ideology.

September 27, 2008 5:33 PM

williamyard said:

icarusr, I need to borrow your earwax remover sometime.

Would not surprise me if he said it and I missed it. For weeks now my brain has suffered from political bulimia: binge and purge. The other day I started out intending to send my daughter a happy birthday email and realized, just before sending, I'd launched into an unintelligible screed about "bitter partial-birth Ground Zero hockey mom surge bailouts." Thank Goddess I deleted it before giving her even more reason to get Durable Power of Attorney and have me shipped off to some botfly-infested county hospital dementia ward.

September 27, 2008 5:36 PM

davedenali said:

Maybe my expectations were too high"

That's an understatement if I ever heard one.  I've followed US politics since the 1960s.  I have yet to see an illuminating debate -- at least not one that rises to the level of great thought or probing discussion of the issues.   I don't claim to know why -- candidates are too cuatious, too constricted by the format or too shallow --  but if you want Churcill or Lincoln, these debates aint the place to look.

September 27, 2008 6:12 PM

ironyroad said:

esmrnse:  "I was beginning to despair that anyone at TNR ever had anything to say that reflected some observation of reality rather than knee jerk promotion of ideology."

What has the promotion of ideology got to do with it, knee-jerk or not?  If different people read the debate differently, that is likely because they are already committed to one candidate or another, and therefore going to see the qualities in their candidate coming out and the negatives in the other.  Hence I thought myself that Obama, on balance, did rather well.  If someone else thinks McCain did well, fine.  But that doesn't mean either of us is blinded by political/tribal loyalties.  

To have a different take on events is not necessarily ideological at every level, but rather repesents a kind of interior "setting" in which you view and interpret such events, depending on age, profession, gender, experience etc.  Often more mature people are aware of that, and try to look at an event with more objectivity.  And, of course, ideological loyalties play a role too.  But they are not absolute, and if Obama had been a total dork last night, I would have noticed, irrespective of my agreement with his positions.  My approving of his performance (mostly) is not my knee-jerk ideological reaction, but is perhaps 25% of it.

In short, although people have their prejudices, you shouldn't have to agree with all of Obama's positions to recognize he did reasonably well.  You don't have to disagree with McCain to notice that he was somewhat grumpy and condescending.

September 27, 2008 6:28 PM

frilz1 said:

Did anyone else notice McCain's constant rapid eye blinking? Back in my freshmen psych class I recall learning that this is an indicator of somebody who is not being truthful.

September 27, 2008 6:32 PM

michael said:

fougasseu wrote, "Put Curtis LeMay, Nathan Jessep ("A Few Good Men"), Bull Meechum ("The Great Santini"), Don Rumsfeld, and Col. Cathcart ("Catch-22") in a blender set on high, and out comes that feisty muzzle-loader, John McCain.

Thank God the brilliant Jim Lehrer gave them room to display themselves, to not try to upstage them (i.e., George Stephanopoulos), and let America watch them in action. The generational differences could not be more stark.

McCain isn't a Republican, he's a martinet.

Time for the bullies to exit, time for leadership and statesmanship.

Time for a Change."

...a writer wit' a brain. Nice job, archive it.

September 27, 2008 8:05 PM

lesserliz said:

Bill Yard, I feel your pain. I just awoke from a nap where I dreamed that while McCain was a POW somebody dug into his cell and taught him, economics, math, and swordplay a la "The Count of Monte Cristo" and he became a combination of the Machurian Candidate and Damien from "The Omen" and sought his revenge by becoming POTUS and seeking to launch a war with Iran and have the whole ME go up in a nuclear rapture to fufill the scriptures.

He sent a special forces false flag team dressed as Iranians to attack Israel and launch the Armageddon but the Israelis remembered that King Cyrus of Persia in 539 BC, having conquered Babylon, freed the Jews from captivity and empowered them to return to the Promised Land and build their Temple. For his acts of kindness, Cyrus the Great was immortalized in the Bible in several passages and called "the anointed of the Lord." The Jews, throughout recorded history, looked to Cyrus' people, the Iranians, as their friends and protectors against oppressors.

Thus McCain's plan was foiled and he melted like the Wicked Witch when he got wet from an encased bit of Alaska snow given to him by his VP that was on his desk as a souvenir.  

September 27, 2008 10:24 PM

whitec said:

Thanks to bdgreen for criticizing Senator Obama's habit of enumerating points, a dreadful habit of Democratic politicians. Except for special interest groups waiting for certain items to be acknowledged, audiences generally stop listening at "Second, . . . ." In contrast, Republicans articulate their principles via narratives that audiences settle into and ride to the end.

For Democrat listers, Bill Clinton exemplified the style of enumerative point-making and somewhat enhanced it with hand-gestures--coordinating digits with digits. The only potential upside is that even tuned-out audiences can think you're bookishly brainy for knowing so much that it has to be tabulated thus.

For Republicans, President Reagan wasn't exactly data-rich, but he could turn a single fact (or specious fact) into an anecdote or epitome of the conservative worldview. Conservatives are committed to past models for their worldview--for instance, Senator McCain's appeals to imitate past wars and presidents. The past provides a more normative set of stories than the future, to which progressives attempt to adapt their principles. That the future hasn't happened yet can make it appear less a narrative than a welter of contingencies that must be acknowledged.

However, this rationale doesn't excuse the rhetorical misery of lists and numbers. If Senator Obama can't continue a single train of thought, he should simply stop at the end of his first point. No one will wonder where the second point went, and everyone will potentially be grateful to be spared the next plodding step through an enumerated list.

September 27, 2008 11:52 PM

ironyroad said:

whitec, I think bdgreen was saying something a little different:

"I also can't give the slightest credence to this 'but what would they DO' nonsense -- how many times does Obama need to deliver freaking enumerated lists of his priorities until this response is dealt with?"

bdgreen was criticizing the relentless demand that Obama set out a menu of future policies, and not claiming that Obama is somehow doing so obsessively because he can't behave any other way.

September 28, 2008 12:19 AM

Robert Powell said:

Thanks to jacksondyer for the reminder, if more were needed, that actually witnessing an event and comparing it with the account in the New York Times is the best way to avoid ever believing anything you read in the papers. And of course for discrediting himself by transparently telling a lie about Obama telling a lie.

It is "patently false" to assert that Obama "blamed both sides".  I saw his statement live so I know exactly what he said, and it was nothing of the sort. He supported the feverish work underway to get an immediate ceasefire by calling for restraint on both sides, which is objectively the only way to get a ceasefire that Georgia needed a lot more than Russia did. With Russian tanks already in Gori essentially cutting Georgia in two and about fifty miles from both Tiblisi and the Caspian-Med pipeline, priority one was calling a halt before the Georgian government was toppled.

Less importantly, but also illustrative of the sloppy inaccuracy of  the piece jackson swallows down whole, Obama did not then get "on a plane for a vacation in Hawaii".  He was already IN Hawaii when the Russians invaded. Maybe Putin timed the move for maximum advantage of the candidate he fears least--McCain, who didn't actually do anything at all about the invasion beyond the kind of speak loudly and carry no stick at all nonsense he seems to prefer.

This was a clear case of McCain telling a bald-faced lie on television, backed by jacksondyer repeating it here. Nice work.

September 28, 2008 3:15 AM

gregstolhand said:

Robert,

"McCain had an opportunity to point out that Obama's remark that the war started in 2003 rather than in 2007 demonstrates ignorance, perhaps due to inexperience, of the crucial fact that the war started in 1991 and was about rather more than Osama bin Laden."

You and about 2 other people in the country understand your point about when the war started in Iraq, let it go.  The billions of dollars and our soldiers lives started to come into our consciousness in 2003 when we went back in to right to take out the WMD's and spread democracy.

September 28, 2008 10:36 AM

icarusr said:

Greg: and one person here in Canada, too.  But I agree with you that Robert's point is beside the point.  What's more, the more I see of this Administration and the more information we get from the early part of the planning for the War, the less I am convinced of the intellectual coherence of insisting that 91 and 03 are related in anything but a guy level, "I want to avenge pappy's wimpy-ness" sense.

Any way, the lies and the half-assed way in which the thing was planned, and the tortures and the maladministration and the lying and lying and lying to the American people - and to the world - and the outsourcing of the war to Haliburton and ... well, we can all argue until we are blue in the face whether 2003 was 1991 redux or justified or necessary, but none of that actually changes the fact that the war was sold on a lie and prosecuted with the competence of a drunkard behind an 18-wheeler careening down the Rockies on a country road.  

September 28, 2008 2:14 PM

AlanSP said:

What RP said about the "restraint from both sides" thing.  That's the definition of a cease-fire.  Cease-fires are not moral judgments about who started it.

September 28, 2008 2:50 PM

icarusr said:

got cut off ...

that every American child is aware that evolution and Darwinism leads to fascism and liberalism and socialism and communism and cubism and antidisestablishmentarlianism, while Intelligent Design the foundation of a Moral and Christian America.

Why, Irony, do you hate America so, so very much?

September 28, 2008 2:52 PM

icarusr said:

Apologies - re last comment here, wrong thread ;-) ... "back" function on the browser had a mind of its own today ...

But RP and Alan, I totally agree about the "ceasefire" issue.  And RP hits the nail right on the head on the practical aspects of the issue: as between a strong aggressor and a weak defender, a "cessation of hostilities" benefits the defender more than it does the aggressor.  At a minimum, you reduce the carnage.  Especially when the US does not have the capacity to do anything about the situation, it makes little sense to get out there, hollering and denouncing and threatening and demanding this, that and the other: you condemn if necessary; you ask for a cease fire; and, if conditions warrant, you also ask for return to status quo ante.  "We are all Georgians" is a stunt, not policy.

September 28, 2008 2:59 PM

Robert Powell said:

On Georgia, it was not just a stunt, but a stunt consistent with McCain's repetition of his long-standing call to kick Russia out of the G-8, etc. Whatever the merits of the proposal, if McCain had his way Russia would ALREADY have been out of the G-8, and even making noise about it wouldn't any longer be an option.  As with Iran, North Korea, and other problem states insisting on responding to every issue with more isolation just removes leverage.

On the significance of getting history straight, there are millions of American voters who are aware that the war started in 1991 in Iraq wasn't resolved because either they or loved ones served, often in combat,  during the period between that date and 2003. Ignoring the tens of billions of dollars spent and hundreds of thousands of lives lost over this period may be convenient to those who want to explain everything in terms of Deaniac talking points, but they shouldn't be surprised when their analysis in this regard is taken as superficial, and dismissive of significant sacrifices by people whose votes they would like to count on--not to mention those of countless Iraqis. Obama makes this mistake at the risk of losing a lot of potential support, because it plays directly into McCain's efforts to depict him as clueless on matters of national security.

September 28, 2008 4:38 PM

teplukhin2you said:

@ greg @Powell - "You and about 2 other people in the country understand your point about when the war started in Iraq..."

To paraphrase Andrew Jackson, "One man with common sense and courage makes a majority." Powell's correct analysis is all the more powerful for being so rarely voiced.

September 29, 2008 12:08 AM

observer.com said:

Congressional leaders and the White House reached an agreement on the $700 billion bailout, which will

September 29, 2008 12:44 AM

ironyroad said:

The "correct" analysis by RP leaves out the fact that the pertinent UNSC resolutions, including in particular 1441, didn't give the United States or any other power or combination of powers the authority to launch an invasion of Iraq when they felt like it.  In fact, they reserved to the UNSC the authority to decide on further action as appropriate against Saddam Hussein.

Your attention is requested to clause 12 of the resolution, which states that the UNSC:

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above [involving an assessment of Iraqi compliance and cooperation on the weapons search], in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

UNMOVIC was within a couple of weeks of making a final report to the Security Council on Iraqi WMD, whereupon a decision would have been made on further action.

Bush and Cheney wanted to pre-empt that (I wonder why), and of course discovered when we got to Iraq (a) no WMD, (b) serious ethnic conflicts boiling up. and (c) an insurgency.

September 29, 2008 1:35 AM

Robert Powell said:

ironyroad's "correction" leaves out the fact that the UN is not The World Government, and that democratic states have the right to enforce the terms of ceasefires they have agreed to without the necessity of getting permission from the likes of Jacques Chirac, Vladimir Putin, and Koffi Annan.

As most succinctly laid out in these pages by current French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, it was crucial for avoiding the necessity of invasion that the Security Council present a united front to Saddam Hussein. When Hans Blix made clear in his final report that Iraq remained in manifest defiance of its obligations, Chirac's response was that there were no circumstances under which France would support the enforcement of the Resolutions. Game over. At that point we had two choices--surrender to Saddam, or invade with the forces we had precariously perched on the edge of the Arabian Peninsula with summer on the way. Bush, with the support of practically every important democracy in the world, did the right thing, if in an extremely inept way.

A lot of this history has been obscured by a tsunami of partisan propaganda, to the point that many otherwise well-informed people think the entire Persian Gulf  War was simply about "Bush lies". But there are enough voters out there who know better to significantly limit the prospects of candidates who can't get their history straight. Ask John Kerry.

September 29, 2008 2:40 AM

ironyroad said:

"World government" doesn't come into it in any way, RP.  Being a founding member state of the UN involves, however, some attempt to act in accordance with its charter, which tries to prevent wars of aggression, and the Security Council gives major powers (a term which, like it or not, includes France and Russia) veto privileges over resolutions.  Kofi Annan would have had nothing to do with any decision, either way.

Blix's reports were somewhat more nuanced than that (nuance being a red rag to the neocon bull, obviously) and said that they were getting very close to a final assessment of WMD in Iraq but needed a little more time.  Blix has since stated that another month would have been enough -- bringing us to mid-April.  Needless to say, Bush et al felt they had to pre-empt that.

It is certainly true that Chirac etc were being uncooperative.  It was also the case that if UNMOVIC had clearly shown the world that Saddam had no weapons, the final legal justification for invasion would be removed -- to that extent both France and Russia seemed to have a better grasp on things.  You, I've noticed, tend to advance Congressional resolutions occasionally as reasons to invade.  However, I'd suggest that the U.S. Congress isn't the world government either, and American desires to remove this or that national leader or regime don't have universal validity.

The "forces in place " argument is also a little hollow, as that suggests that a suitable justification for a surgeon operating on a patient would be "I just happened to find myself in the room with a scalpel."

September 29, 2008 10:15 AM

teplukhin2you said:

Re "Game over," note also that Chirac's "national champion" oil company, TotalFinaElf, in late 2002 signed the deal of the century, a sweetheart deal with Saddam for exclusive rights to develop fully ONE-THIRD of Iraq's entire reserves. Which meant that the crucial pillar of the anti-war strategy, ie containment via sanctions, had collapsed.

The sanctions were a dead letter by early 2003. The altnerative to overthrowing Saddam wasn't "boxing him in", it was doing business with him, a la ChIraK. and LUKoil and kickbacks to the Kremlin ($91m per Saddam's OFF records).

September 29, 2008 10:53 AM

ironyroad said:

Yes, "overthrowing Sadam."  Otherwise known as "taking out Iran's major opponent in the region without them having to spend a dime."

Chalabi was able to report "mission accomplished" to Teheran.

September 29, 2008 1:07 PM

Robert Powell said:

Since this thread has been pushed way down by all the "financial crisis" posts you may not see it, irony, but I hope you do since these points need making:

--"World Government" comes into it whenever someone tries or implies the patently disingenuous "illegal" charge in relation to the Iraq war. The final arbiter of what's legal for states like the US and Britain are their own extremely legalistic and entirely legitimate institutions, including Congress and Parliament. Moreover, we acted in accordance with the Charter for twelve years before the invasion, resulting in the deaths of perhaps a million innocent Iraqis and a tightening of the regime's grip on power. The second invasion was itself consistent with the Charter, as best explained by Lord Goldsmith in his finding for Parliament in March 2003.

--After twelve years of defiant non-compliance, Iraq was given a "final opportunity" deadline. Blix made it clear that after the deadline had past, Iraq remained manifestly uncooperative. Although it seems to have been a big disappointment for Saddam's supporters, the appropriate judgment at the time was that there was no way to ever be sure about Iraq's compliance without its cooperation, something Blix himself confirmed. Folks like you seem to wish that instead the international community had taken upon itself responsibility for Iraq's compliance rather than insisting, as consistent with the Resolutions, that Iraq's government do so.

--The "forces in place argument" is only "hollow" for people who have no idea or concern about the specific conditions of our troops in 2003; and no idea about military issues in general, in particular the vulnerability of forces poised for an offensive. We had already lost some troops in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to terrorist attacks, and for all anyone knew we may well have been hit with wmd's--it was not for public relations reasons that our people went into combat burdened with chem suits in 2003. This is the kind of callous ignorance about the troops that contributes to the Democrats' reputation as being untrustworthy in military matters.

--Using the genocidal tyranny of Saddam Hussein as a proxy against Iran was one of the most reprehensible ideas in the history of American foreign policy. At the least, it caused a lot more problems than it solved. Having removed Saddam, the stage was set for meaningfully improving our relations with Iran. Unfortunately the Bush people were too busy screwing things up in Iraq to take advantage of the opportunity, but I think we still can and should do so.

September 30, 2008 2:47 AM