Maybe because the woman has the IQ of a tomato.  It might hurt McCain's cause just a bit.

Conservatives have screamed "media bias" for so long that they are panicked by the phantom wolf of their own creations. Sarah Palin is clearly John McCain's biggest mistake. She is the "bubble girl", sequestered from the evil media so that she doesn't say something like "I have oceanographic expertise because I can see the Bering Sea from my house". What a week next week will be: Palin will go from being hermetically sealed off from eveyone to the left of Sean Hannity to being catapaulted into the fires of debate next Thursday. Stay tuned for some more high comedy.

A quick thought.  Since there is at least some theorizing that it made a big difference in the Couric/Palin interview that it was a woman conducting that interview, is it a big break that Gwen Ifill will moderate the VP debate?

Any thoughts?

The debate has stopped McCain's bleeding, but if Obama can keep some momentum going the next few days, the VP debate might be a knock out punch for his campaign.

"It's pretty strange when a candidate can't trust his own running mate to be out there spinning on his behalf."

She wasn't chosen to answer foreign-policy questions, so why subject her to them?  She's mainly a symbol of something.  Of what, exactly, I don't know.  Maybe the media should try to figure that out and decide whether it's particularly important and, if it is, check her out on it, instead of on the policy expertise she clearly isn't even supposed to have.

Anyone notice all the times McCain took implied jabs at Obama tonight for his lack of experience? How many times did he say "I went there" and "I know him" and "I've been doing this for twenty years". He was playing the experience card every chance he got. I'm waiting for someone to ask him how, if those experiences are so important to his qualification to lead, can he look anyone in the eye and say Palin is ready to take over.

I can see the sky from my window. Maybe that means I'm a pilot!

Brent, that's an excellent question.  That break is huge.  The one way that the McCain campaign can save the VP debate is to spin it as a gang up on the one woman.  With Ifill there and Biden being the minority that spin is completely gone.

Further, as J. Cuomo mentioned on another thread, part of the reason Couric was able to expose how stupid Palin is, is because Palin feels more comfortable interacting with men than women.  She can try to charm them or play the victim with a guy.  With Couric she could not play either card and therefore she was uncomfortable and she sounded stupider than she did in the Gibson and Hannity interviews.

Really, Crowley, how can Palin be expected to show up in the spin room AND keep Alaska's borders safe from invasion by its neighbors?

Wasatcher, McCain is running against Obama.  That is all people care about.  If he has more experience, that will tally in the voters' final equation.  Biden and Palin are afterthoughts.  

cal80: RIght. But there is the judgement issue, and it's not trivial given the celebrity of SP. Celebrity, being our national religion, makes everything more important. Has there ever been a VP candidate about whom so much attention swirled? We can look at the past but we should also remember that we are in uncharted waters. SP brings unprecedented positives to the McCain camp, and concomitant negatives. How it plays out remains to be seen. A lot of people care about Palin as more than an afterthought. That's why the right wing is back in the fight with blood in their eyes, and that's what killed the last two Democratic candidates who should have won.

The veeps are more than "afterthoughts." They're living, breathing examples of the presidential candidates' judgment and thinking. Usually that doesn't matter quite so much and it's a wash, but in a year when the difference between the two choices is so stark - it matters.

Well, I have to say, Biden seemed like he was back in his own skin tonight.  Did anyone see him fling the Fox broadcaster's shit right back in his face when the Bush troll asked Biden if he was going to "bully" Palin?  Said Biden, so cooly, "No, I'm not going to be like John [McCain]".

Well, I have to say, Biden seemed like he was back in his own skin tonight.  Did anyone see him fling the Fox broadcaster's shit right back in his face when the Bush troll asked Biden if he was going to "bully" Palin?  Said Biden, so cooly, "No, I'm not going to be like John [McCain]".

Sorry BHL, I have to:

LOL!

Tonight, at several moments, I thought that McCain was actually making the Sarah Palin argument for foreign policy experience. Sarah can see Russia, so she has foreign policy experience. McCain went to see Iraq and Afghanistan, so he is an expert with experience. It's bizarre.

I wouldn't get too complacent here.  There is a fairly obvious way for the Republicans to deal with Palin and her apparent weaknesses.

Have her do what Dan Quayle did in the 1992 debates.

Anybody remember that?  Quayle was a laughingtstock at the time, there was talk of dumping him from the ticket.  During the '92 debates, however, he didn't even bother trying to answer any questions.  He spent all of his time attacking Bill Clinton (and Gore wasn't very effective in defending him).  Quayle was actually reasonably effective.  The next day, nobody was talking about Quayle being incompetent -- they were talking about his attacks and Gore's failure to adequately defend Clinton.

If I were advising McCain, I would suggest that Palin go nuclear.  Ignore the questions, don't even try to answer them.  Just memorize ten or so attacks (one for each major topic likely to come up) and launch into those attacks and repeat them.  Bring up Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Jeremiah Wright.  Have her call Obama unpatriotic, question his lack of flag pin, hit all those cultural issues to paint Obama as "not like us."

Would it be risky?  Of course.  But at this point, McCain is on his way to losing.  What does he have to lose?  McCain no doubt is looking for another game-changer.  They need to figure out some way to distract people from the fact that Palin isn't ready for the job.  And isn't it better for Palin to look mean than for her to look incompetent?  Bear in mind that there's only room for one headline the next day: do the Republicans want it to be "Palin can't answer questions" or "Palin questions Obama's patriotism"?

Think about it.  If you're a Republican and you've got Karl Rove whispering in your ear, isn't this what you would do?  As Palin might say: You betcha.

So how to Democrats and Biden prepare for this?  That's something we need to figure out.

But I still think the best option for Democrats is to have Joe Biden fly up to Juneau two or three days before the debate and hold a forum with all of Palin's local critics -- the librarian, the woman who wrote that long e-mail, the mayor she shafted, anybody with a negative story about Palin -- and have them tell their Sarah stories to the media.  Get all that stuff in the open before the debate, and you can bet that Palin will be asked questions about her own background -- which will make it harder for her to attack Obama during the debate.  You know that old Carville line -- it's hard to talk when you've got a fist in your mouth.

Dsmth,

"She wasn't chosen to answer foreign-policy questions, so why subject her to them?  She's mainly a symbol of something.  Of what, exactly, I don't know.  Maybe the media should try to figure that out and decide whether it's particularly important and, if it is, check her out on it, instead of on the policy expertise she clearly isn't even supposed to have."

Why is it the media's job to figure out why she was chosen, especially when she won't meet with the media to discuss anything????

RUNNING MATES AS SURROGATES.... After a debate, campaigns generally want high-profile figures telling the media how great their candidate did. And as a rule, it's hard to top the running mates as high-profile figures. It was pretty interesting, then,

Palin's absence was a stunning admission of her now becoming a liability.

She could have been enormously helpful to counter the bullying, salty tone of McCain. She should have been on to soften his persona, to connect with women. I can't believe they feel that is was better to hide her away. Palin may cost him the election. Without someone to "young up" the ticket, they're toast.

ABC shouldn't be granted the benefit of the doubt because they claim they're interested in "fairness."  The Gibson-Stephanopolous attack team at the "debate" in Pennsylvania should have dispelled that notion for all but the most obtuse.  Since 2000, at least, ABC has been Fox in an Armani suit.

Wandreycer1 said:

Maybe because the woman has the IQ of a tomato.  It might hurt McCain's cause just a bit.

___________

Last night I likened her IQ to a cucumber (perhaps because I was eating one at the time).  But tomato is a better choice, due to its ability to be squashed so easily.

Which is funny, because she was at a bar in Philly on 20th and Walnut.  What she was doing there is beyond me.  

fougasseu said:

Palin's absence was a stunning admission of her now becoming a liability.

She could have been enormously helpful to counter the bullying, salty tone of McCain. She should have been on to soften his persona, to connect with women.

_______

You make a good point.  But I would counter this with the fact that - having heard the nature and substance of Palin's support for McCain (e.g., he's a maverick, he's a maverick, he's a true patriot and umm...  I'll get back to you next week and provide proof of this) - her presence or input last night may likely have done McCain more harm than good. My assumption is that the McCain camp has made great efforts to properly prepare Palin to face the press, and while she's adhering to the script, she doesn't seem capable of moving beyond it and offering an insight or perspective all her own.

And, as a woman, I have to say that I don't believe there's anything she can do or say at this point that will make me feel a connection with her.  Soley because I whole-heartedly disagree with her ideology.  But I don't represent every woman, so - having said all that - I concede that you make a good point.

I'm seeing the support of Palin dwindle to a shrinking group who is stubborn & unwilling to admit their early enchantment was shallow. They may be vocal and they could remain excited but with each appearance where she has to reveal herself she is further from capturing a majority.

It isn't hard to find 30% of the population with a strong attachment to a person who lacks substance but McCain's mistake was they may have believed Barack was winning as a celebrity. Yes, his charm and style helped but he didn't jump from the mid 20's last Fall to defeating Hillary as a rock star. But even Bono's influence outside entertainment relies upon more than star power or we'd see more wanna be serious people in show biz (who are equally famous) exercising the same clout.

But McCain and his slimy bunch face a dilemma by hiding her. Yes, she will appear stupid in proportion to how often she appears. But she's the only excitement they have and the twenty or thirty percent need to be getting their fix. Even if she can't produce a winning margin, McCain may suffer more without her if he doesn't provide the candy as promised.

It's like visiting boring people because they serve good drinks. Some people refuse to be bored stiff and put up with a house of drunks so they will stay home. But the last thing a dull host can do is clean out the liquor cabinet because no one will show. Palin may harm him but she will have some value till the end. He can hide her but he's not a big draw alone.

She was at a bar in Philadelphia.  Great quote:

Inside the bar, James Boney, of Atlantic City, said he had been a McCain supporter but would not vote for him now because of the Palin pick.

www.philly.com/.../29834564.html

Maybe its the greatest case of rope-a-dope in American political history.  I am suddenly thinking of the old SNL skit wherein Reagan is revealed to be the master-statesman, architect of everything.  Perhaps Palin is simply sandbagging everyone, and then at the debate she will turn into a combination of Condoleeza Rice,  Madeleine Albright, and Ann Richards.

Well, I didn't say it was a good idea.

Sen. Biden had a great line last night:  "Just because you're there doesn't mean you're right."  

I think he'll be fine -- basically ignore Gov. Palin and use his Happy Warrior persona to savage McCain.

Wandrey wrote: "Maybe because the woman has the IQ of a tomato."

I'm disappointed, Jill. I thought it was above you to make such unfair comparisons.

It may interest you to know that the tomato (Solanum lycopersicum) originated in the Americas and was cultivated in southern Mexico by at least as early as the 16th Century. The Spanish distributed the tomato throughout the world and, despite some subsequent erroneous statements that it was poisonous, its use continued to spread. By 2005, 125 million tons of tomatoes were produced worldwide (China is the leading grower, followed by the U.S. and Turkey).

The tomato is highly nutritious; among its more important components is the antioxidant lycopene, consumption of which is thought to reduce the risk of prostate cancer and to protect the skin from the deleterious effects of UV radiation.

So, Jill, your comparison of the tomato to Sarah Palin is highly suspect. On the one hand you are talking about one of nature's most beneficial and enjoyable gifts to humanity. On the other hand you are not.

Sarah Palin is a moose in the headlights.

WIlliam Y - a fine point sir.  

I remember basman calling someone a llama and I had to step in at that point.  Is there a more lovely critter?  Yes, they can spit at you, but can't we all relate?  

No self respecting llama wants to be compared to a politician, just as no self respecting tomato wants to be compared to a...a....disaster.

Is there anything you don't know William Y?

williamyard: Moose in the headlights? Maybe Raquel Welch in the headlights.

I know McCain sees himself as Dino, throwing craps at the Riviera, one of Frank's favorite saloons. McCain probably fell for the legs, as the old boys would say. And now we have Palin.

Please, will someone show these schoolyard bullies, these irrascible muzzle-loaders, the exit?

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, McCain, all savages cut from the same cloth. Whatta gang of command-control thugs!

Time for a Change.

Coincidentally I'm in the market for a couple of llamas. I am not making this up. Llamas will eat the grasses and weeds that grow abundantly around my little Green Acres hovel and which have been cited (rightly, I might add, but won't) by my local county pencilneck as a fire hazard but, unlike other small grazers (e.g., goats, sheep), llamas are usually not eaten by the coyotes that like to drop by from time to time and in fact have been known to kick said coyotes in the kisser if the latter venture too close. Plus my GF knits and is all excited to make sweaters out of their wool.

I don't know everything, darlin', but I do know where to find Wikipedia, which allows this old bullshitter even more license, not to mention the CDs I have recently ordered from "The Teaching Company" (I think they got my name from TNR, the bastards) and soon my knowledge shall runneth over and I will become even more insufferable, if that is possible.

I've just started the series on World History. Did you know that Ancient Persia had something resembling the Pony Express? See what I mean: insufferable.

Well William Y - I salute your *inclination* to know everything.

Mom's neighbors in Oregon had llamas (flash of Napolean Dynamite, but never mind), the were insanely cute, but they could be tough guys.  Sweet, but they would kick and bite if need be (again, can't we all relate?).  Coyotes would probably know better than to pull any funny stuff on a full grown llama.

They were funny and had really intense personalities, they'd let you know if they were mad at you, if they thought your outfit was ugly that day, theyd laughed at any snacks you'd offer that they considered gauche.  They also came when you called them once they knew you and like to hang out and watch the sunset with you - they were very Zen companions.  I miss those guys, they were just amazing.  They burp too - fabulously.  I always appreciate that ability in anyone.

The owners and the llamas all loaded up and moved to the next town over (McMinnville).

The biggest complaint Mom's church ladies from that town had against Palin was that she shot animals out of a heliocopter.  They can handle just about anything else.  But that?  She's Pol Pot to them after hearing that.  Everyone is Dr Doolittle there.

Anyway - if you can get someone to shorn one of those suckers for you (I'd be scared) then I'd say: get the llamas (I think you have to buy them in pairs).

Sarah Palin, MIA? Sarah Palin, DOA.

I'm okay with Palin killing things from helicopters as long as she's flying an Apache helicopter gunship with cannons, machine guns, rockets and precision-guided missiles. If you're gonna do something, baby, do it right. No reason your Hellfire missile has to be limited to taking out tanks when, say, a desperate, starving polar bear cub is standing up on her melting ice floe, I always say.

Amazing what one of those Hellfires can do to a quail hatchling.

humm...The Mummy has one of the most erratic weeks of presidential candidate in recent memory, Palin gives an interview of such low intellectual velocity and absence of poise that I almost feel sorry for this ill starred numbskull, The Mummy's neck wrappings are so tight that he can't even TURN HIS HEAD to look at Obama last night, every single poll - including F. Luntz' FOX poll that the network quickly buried - shows that Obama was perceived as the clear victor in the debate last night...

and an entire week of no eos, and on this thread, that germ jacobt1 may have finally thrown in the towel and decided to catch up on his 8th grade algebra homework, and leave politics to the grown ups...

BTW, any of you going to the tnr shindig on 10/16?  I am trying to decide if I should imitate Willie Sutton and rob a bank so I can fly out for the weekend. But I don't want to go if it is only me, a sour teppy, and gas bag Leon Wieseltier hogging all the oxygen in the immediate area. Yard, Jill, icarusr, others, are you going?

Ugh!

What shindig?

Oh dear Goddess, Cookie, I'd love to go, but that's a brutal week at work, and the week after I have jury duty and/or a colonoscopy (compare and contrast), then the week after that we elect a new guy and I'll break out in zits as a stress reliever.

Sure would love to go. May have to show up incognito, sit outside the s-gogue in my best homeless regalia with a paper cup and a cardboard sign: "Will comment for food. Goddess bless."

If I change my mind I'll let you know (send me your current email, bro!) and we'll carpool.

Jaunty - I haven't heard anything?!  Did I miss something?  maybe they left me off because they are afraid Sleepy would leave in a huff if I came.

No seriously, I'd hop on amtrack and go in a second but this is the first I've heard of it.

jaunty and William Y or Irony - whomever - check in at jc1496@columbia.com if there's a way to meet up there.

I never get invited to anything.

Oh *that* shindig -- I just checked out the "request for tickets" form.  Can't get away early enough on Thursdays and DC is not exactly next door.

Maybe TNR might do somethng closer to election day, and then it might be worth the drive (7 hours or thereabouts).

Oh duh - figured it out -

I'm going to try and finagle my schedule and get down there I think.

WandreyCer1, you can go just fine. I have other things to do that day, so you'll be spared my ominous presence.

I'd love to see you Sleep ;)

Jingu worries me.  However, I thought the "take home" from the 1992 Veep Debate was Admiral Stockdale's general weirdness.  His "Who am I?  Why am I here?" existential trope (that makes me think of Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime")  SNL memorably summed it up here:

www.hulu.com/.../saturday-night-live-joyride-with-perot

Wandreycer1, I'm sure face-to-face discussions between us would be more civil than the acerbic shouting matches on these pages.

On the other hand, one never knows. I remember a dinner party where one of the other guests, upon hearing I was a Jew and an Israeli citizen, proceeded to tell me I must be a racist. She was emphatically Jewish and denied the right of Israel to exist just as emphatically. As she was screaming (some people think their arguments are somehow more compelling if they shout), I told her that the only way that she was a Jew was by signing anti-Israel boycotts (this was a wild guess, and a depressingly accurate one - it took me less than two minutes to find her on Google as a signatory) and that she reminded me of people in the JuPo, the Judische Polizei collaborators of Nazis. Maybe that was a consequence of reading The Nation and Counterpunch too much, I asked? It turned out she wrote there from time to time... No, I am NOT  smart - it rather is that people like her are depressingly predictable.

There is a certain type of "progressive" New York Jew that seems to have been cheaply mass-produced, like a cheap and smelly toy - ignorant, provincial, knowing books by their titles yet never having read them. She was just another example of it. Nasty, mean, buly-ish?Sure, but so predictable! I admit that it's fun to confront people like her, who are used to no serious resistance and who also lord it, in day-to-day life, over some others (employees, students). I indulge in it because they are confused and enraged by serious opposition - they remind me Eastern Europe village dogs, maddened on a chain, wanting to kill you but restrained by the chain. There are few things as funny as tormenting an enraged person while you are calm.

So, this little anecdote is simply to say that even face-to-face meeting can turn out sour...

Does anyone know the agenda for the 16th? Who's presenting? 6th and I website doesn't reveal.

sleepyavl:  "As she was screaming (some people think their arguments are somehow more compelling if they shout)"

I've noticed that.

Cookie: I've already got a conference in Ottawa October 16 weekend, otherwise, I'd be there.  Haven't been in DC for ages and it'd be fun to meet y'all.