Anyone who knows anything about the service academies knows how strong and central the Honor Code system is.  The academies do not brook their breach.

"I will not lie, cheat, or steal or tolerate those who do" is how it reads.  And this is enforced seriously and inflexibly.  In several cheating scandals over the years at the various academies, cadets were dismissed en masse.

McCain, an Annapolis grad and a third or fourth generation Naval officer would have this ethic dissolved in his bloodstream.

Does this ethical code apply to cheating on your wife?

Doesn't appear so. By all accounts, McCain was chasing leg while his wife sat at home and raised their children. Then he dropped her on her ass and married his way into an enormous fortune. What a guy.

"Their over-the-top reaction is a little ridiculous"

They must hit Obama hard for such  ridiculous smear. Good for them.

"McCain, an Annapolis grad and a third or fourth generation Naval officer would have this ethic dissolved in his bloodstream."

Oh, come off it Channy.  As MPatrick notes, McCain is already a confessed cheater.  The question is whether someone so callous at fucking over his wife is also callous and ambitious enough to cheat in a President debate, the "code of honour" notwithstanding.  And the answer is yes.

You don't win by HAVING a code of honour, but by living it; when your actions detoken a lack of honour, that you had it in your bloodstream means exactly squat.

Chan- A minor quibble: "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do" is the West Point honor code.  Annapolis, in keeping with the Navy's grand tradition of excessive verbosity, has an "Honor Concept" that reads:

"Midshipmen are persons of integrity: They stand for that which is right.

They tell the truth and ensure that the full truth is known. They do not lie.

They embrace fairness in all actions. They ensure that work submitted as their own is their own, and that assistance received from any source is authorized and properly documented. They do not cheat.

They respect the property of others and ensure that others are able to benefit from the use of their own property. They do not steal."

Given his policy positions (the current ones), I would never vote for John McCain, but it seems to me that the guy deserves some slack for cheating on his wife and blowing up his first marriage. The man had something like six years of his youth taken from him in a really violent, jarring way that had to have a profound psychological impact. I'm not apologizing for the guy: what he did was wrong. But, you know, there were reasons that suggest he is not just a simple cad.

Frankly, mpatrickhendri, it probably doesn't apply to cheating on his wife.

There is also a pretty strong tradition of that in the Navy and probably the military in general.  If for no other reason than that people in the military are away from home for long periods.

Thanks, ratnerstar.  I knew the West Point Code by heart.  I googled for the Anapolis Code and came up with phrases almost identical to West Point.

Sounds like you know of what you speak.  Appreciate it.

“Now, my first question: Was the cone of silence comfortable that you were in just now?”

Mr. McCain deadpanned, “I was trying to hear through the wall.” umm..was this from the wall in his motorcade?

McCain could have made that joke, then told the truth that he was in his motorcade. He didn't. When people questioned his campaign if he was in a "code of silence" his campaign lied. Now they are denying he didn't prep for the interview at all and are shocked that people don't believe people caught in a lie.

Then on top of that there is this: “The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.

Let us all genuflect in the direction of John McCain. America is not worthy to vote for him. We should call him St. John the Divine as he is a gift to us from God on high.

This was badly handled by his campaign all around.

propjoe, I would normally agree if McCain wasn't trying to act like St. John the POW. His most gut wrenching decision was not leaving his wife and children but, as he claimed, deciding not to disgrace his uniform by leaving Vietnam due to family connections? Yeah, sure. I would hope that is a self-serving lie in a church. I liked McCain much better when he was more open.

Channy, cheating on your wife is not a strong "tradition" my Uncle is a retired Commander and if there is one thing I am pretty sure of it that he never cheated on my Aunt. And he would probably be offended if anyone insinuated that it was a "tradition." But I agree being away for long periods of time puts strains on any marriage. I am not out to cast stones, understanding though is not condoning.

So the fact that McCain swore an oath not to cheat on his schoolwork, and for all we know didn't cheat on his schoolwork -- strong evidence: he graduated so low in his class it's almost mathematically impossible for him to have cheated his way down -- and that tells us all we need to know about the man's integrity. But the fact that he swore an oath to be loyal to his wife, but violated that oath, that's perfectly understandable, and in fact lots of military men violate that oath, so the violation of that oath shouldn't count against our estimation of a military man's honor and integrity? Please. An oath is an oath, and we rightly judge people's integrity by the degree to which they live up to the commitments they have made.

As far as judging the character of a president, I kind of don't care whether he cheated in school. I do care whether he stands by his word as an adult. And John McCain actually runs a little below average compared to the general population when it comes to living up to his commitments, with the one outstanding exception of his loyalty to duty while in uniform. That's a big plus, but the negatives in his life still count. It's a mixed picture, and that's just fine. Only a child would insist that his preferred candidate is perfect in all regards, or argue that the fact that he stepped out on his own family isn't really a big deal.

Regarding this particular incident, the significant fact is not that McCain may have "cheated" in a debate. He probably didn't, but even if he did, one expects Republicans to break the rules of debates. That's what they do. No, the significant fact is that McCain couldn't be bothered to show up on time. He made a commitment to a church -- indeed, to a pastor that in other settings McCain has called a "friend" -- and he didn't fully honor that commitment. What, were there just too many lobbyists in his hotel room for him to get out on time? Was he in the middle of a particularly hot game of Pachesi?

Frankly, it is a good thing to have the McCain campaign come a little unglued over a useless bit of piffle.   Make them sweat.  Make them waste a day combating a non-story.  Make them spend a few bucks trying to knock down a 'you can't win' type of story.  Make people wonder about whether the perfectly moral, upright, honesty, and trustworthy St. John of Arizona actually has lapses.  

I especially liked the pissy letter they sent to NBC regarding this mess.  They must feel like they have been betrayed by one of their own, their base.  

And, if it does nothing else, it raises Jacobt1's blood-pressure.  Having him splutter on the site always brings a smile to my face.

Rhubarbs: in your just above post you are ranting pure and simple. And you seem not to know it. Step back fro what you just posted, calm down, then take a critical look at your non sequiturs and your emotions crippling your reason. I often disagree with you but enjoy the cool analysis in your posts, but here you are so Obama encased and McCain revulsed that you can't think straight or clearly: so many molehills mountains.

Chan- Not really, I just spent a few years as an enlisted man.  We had our own code, which is to annoy anyone who came out of a service academy.  Seriously, I know they're great and all, but West Point grads were annoying as hell to work under.

That said, I've always believed that McCain is essentially a decent man, with a sense of honor and so forth.  He did cheat on his wife (which, lets not forget, is actually illegal in the military), but I'm willing to cut the guy a break on that; stuff happens.  But "decent guy" is at best a necessary condition for being a good President, and nowhere near a sufficient one.  

The guy's way too emotional for my tastes.

How can we trust somebody like this to be our president? The more I see and hear of him, the more he worries me.

Who cares about whether he heard Obama or not? I don't really think it gave him enough time to have a leg up. And he had his standard talking points all ready anyhow. He said the same stuff he's been saying for years. He didn't even directly answer a lot of the questions.

And why oh why isn't the MSM calling him presumptuous and full of hubris? He think's he's G-d's gift, and nobody's allowed to challenge that because, after all, he's a POW. I am just so so sick of his campaign (and him) bulldozing any criticisms or questioning of him by insinuating that people aren't patriotic if they do. Why do reporters and politicians let themselves be bullied  by him ?

Meanwhile, Republicans had lots of criticisms until he became the nominee. But G-d forbid the rest of us do. Because now he's theirs, he's untouchable. Which just goes to show you how much power the Republican talking points still have, despite our unhappiness with our current administration.

Another peeve: He keeps saying he knows how to find and kill Osama bin Laden. If he does, how come he hasn't made the Bush administration privy to this knowledge?

Remember Guiliani's campaign formula of "noun-verb-9/11" (ht to Biden)?  Looks like McCain has decided to go with "noun-verb-POW".  And although I believe McCain is basically an honorable man, at least by DC standards, I don't think he's nearly as honorable as he THINKS he is.  But then I don't think Jesus is as honorable as McCain thinks McCain is.

scire said:

"And why oh why isn't the MSM calling him presumptuous and full of hubris? He think's he's G-d's gift, and nobody's allowed to challenge that because, after all, he's a POW."

And why oh why isn't the MSM calling Obama  presumptuous and full of hubris? He think's he's G-d's gift, and nobody's allowed to challenge that because, after all, he doesn't look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills.

basman, I guess I don't see the objection.

The marriage vow is an oath. (according to the GOP party line, it's a sacred one). Breaking an oath (particularly one made to the person who is supposed to be the person one loves on earth more than anyone else) surely has SOMETHING to do with honor, no?

Mike's already touched on the McCain campaign's overheated accusation of bias against NBC's

Yet another illuminating Jacomment, brought to you by the makers of "Comments-by-cut-and-paste", available at the corner dime store.  The programme is worth a dime, the Jacomments are for free.  Jacob's your brilliance at the keyboard (ctl-x, ctl-y, tap tap tap) is noted.  Now could you please do the other trick you know, balancing a baseball bat on your nose?

Channy: "There is also a pretty strong tradition of that in the Navy and probably the military in general.  If for no other reason than that people in the military are away from home for long periods."

Channy speaks a lot about "moral clarity", except of course when dealing with the military, cheating on one's wife, etc.  Hey - each to their own, and I am hardly in a position to cast stones.  But, PLEASE don't yammer on about codes of honour and what's in the bloodstream when your defintion of "honour" is so flexible, contextual and - oh, wait for it - "relativistic."

What's the big whoop here?  McCain is just working the refs.

Basman: This is Evidence 101 stuff for God's sake in criminal matters: previous bad acts are prejudicial and inadmissible into evidence except where the witness puts his or her own character at issue by saying something along the lines of "I am not the kind of person to do this."

McCain could simply say, "I was not in the cone but did not listen in." End of story.  Or he could say, as his campaign did, "Never in a million years would he do such a dastardly thing," supported by the Westpoint code of honour blather from Channy.  That is where you can, should and ought to thrown in the kitchen sink in impugning the character of the wife-cheating charlatan.

Three words: Jumping The Shark. While I don't like it when MSM reports rumors and things "as-is" (sans accompanying factuals), it seems to me that McCain is going completely overboard claiming Media Bias, especially when said incident was anecdotal to the coverage being given in a story claiming McCain was the winner.

This story reminds me of this one time, at band camp, Obama accused McCain of being senile because he said of McCain: "He has lost his bearings."

Jumping the shark, and getting one's factuals wrong at the same time is NOT a good combination in my book. Again, I am filled with shame for ever having thought McCain worthy of the title POTUS.

Blackie writes re McCAin, "...We should call him St. John the Divine as he is a gift to us from God on high."

Uh, Blackie, Speaker Pelosi apparently said almost that very thing about Obama today.  "A gift from God to the Democrats".

Chan, I think that says more about Pelosi's opinion of the other Democrats.

blackie wwrites, "...Channy, cheating on your wife is not a strong "tradition" my Uncle is a retired Commander and if there is one thing I am pretty sure of it that he never cheated on my Aunt. And he would probably be offended if anyone insinuated that it was a "tradition."

You're absolutely right, Blackie, a poor choice of words.  But, realistically, it would at least be intuitive to assume that sailors at sea six and nine months at a time and visiting foreign ports would have more reason and opportunity to stray.  Even officers.  And, of course sea lore implies they do.

Plus, the divorce rate for Naval officers with sea duty is terribly high because of the long months apart.

But, none of that is proof that any such assumptions are correct.

ratnerstar writes, "...Chan- Not really, I just spent a few years as an enlisted man.  We had our own code, which is to annoy anyone who came out of a service academy.  Seriously, I know they're great and all, but West Point grads were annoying as hell to work under."

I've often heard that service acad grads are considered to be a little to Boy Scouty and rigid, even by other officers who went through ROTC etc.  And guys in the service acads are sequestered something like docotrs are.  And may share the typical naivete or unworldliness (in certain relams) of doctors.

All that said, I still admire West Point and Annapolis graduates.  Just as I admire Harvard and other Ivy grads.  Even while disdaining many aspects of Ivy culture.

Chan,

Are you kidding? My dad was an NCO for 8 years and I'd bet my left testical he never cheated on my mother. And as for the assertion from another poster that McCain had a right to go chasing women because he was a POW, I'm calling total bullshit. His wife no doubt suffered as her husband sat in that prison, raising children alone, fearing for her husband's safe return. She, unfortunately, had the bad luck to get in a disfiguring accident before he returned. Once back he spent years tomcatting before settling on an extraordinarily rich, poltically connected heiress to leave his wife for. This epidode is damn important. He had children and la wife. This is selfishness at its worst. Certainly worse than choosing a dumb minister but perhaps not as bad as advocating a war in Iraq based on erroneous intelligence on anthrax right before Stupid Pet Tricks.

...Basman: This is Evidence 101 stuff for God's sake in criminal matters: previous bad acts are prejudicial and inadmissible into evidence except where the witness puts his or her own character at issue by saying something along the lines of "I am not the kind of person to do this....

...The marriage vow is an oath. (according to the GOP party line, it's a sacred one). Breaking an oath (particularly one made to the person who is supposed to be the person one loves on earth more than anyone else) surely has SOMETHING to do with honor, no...

Give me a break both of you.

Ick,  I'm giving you an F on 3 grounds: citing legal doctrine to make a political argument; making a hash of the legal doctrine you are citing; and failing to understand  the relative de minimis of what McCain did 30 years ago in a  matter of his heart, which like all our hearts , wanted what it wanted.

miceelf , you get a C-. See ground 3 above. I'm only passing you because I'm grading on a curve and at least you didn't assert some bogus legalese to make your point.

McCain refused early release from he Hanoi Hilton and knew he would suffer terribly because of it.

That is of heroism and stature going to character that is virtually incomprehensible and while it does not excuse matrimonial delinquency, it  is so transcendent  as a matter of character that it makes the slings and arrows of a 30 year old infidelity as darts thrown by so many Lilliputians.

mpatrickhendri, why don't we just say that my speculations about Naval officer philandering was pretty much based on legend.  And your strong declaration that your petty officer dad was as true as the sea is blue is likely correct.  But, anecdotal, applying, at best, to one guy.

So, neither of us are on very firm ground on this one.

I could google for studies on this topic and come back.  But, no matter what studies might say, it's not going affect anybody's opinion about McCain, one way or the other.

icarusr  said:

"Yet another illuminating Jacomment, brought to you by the makers of "Comments-by-cut-and-paste", available at the corner dime store. "

It doesn't matter. The point is that my  "cut-and-paste" version:

And why oh why isn't the MSM calling Obama  presumptuous and full of hubris? He thinks he's G-d's gift, and nobody's allowed to challenge that because, after all, he doesn't look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills.

makes more sense than your original comment:

"And why oh why isn't the MSM calling him presumptuous and full of hubris? He think's he's G-d's gift, and nobody's allowed to challenge that because, after all, he's a POW."

Does anyone on this thread have any doubt of what the GOP would do if it was Obama with the history of matrimonial deliquency?  I know they would have figured out a way to exploit it.

And I bet your tune would be different, chan.

scrubbyoak writes, "Does anyone on this thread have any doubt of what the GOP would do if it was Obama with the history of matrimonial deliquency?...And I bet your tune would be different, chan."

When it comes to sex, Scrubby, I'm a style man.  Jack Kennedy seemed to do his affairs right.  In Hollywood with hot starts we'd all like to do-- Marilyn, Angie Dickenson.  And maybe he had a few frolics in the White House pool.  But, b.j.s in the broom closet of the Oval Office-- uh, no.  

It was the furtiveness of Clinton, the stylelessness-- hitting on the help, or the little Arkansas girls working the booths that was so unworthy of a leader who ought to have proper courtesans.

McCain's indiscretion was long before he took public office.  And soon after a long traumatic imprisonment that was in the service of his country.

That buys him at least a partial pass that Bill Clinton never earned.

Meanwhile, if Obama had a girlfriend a few years back, you think I'm going to paint a Scarlet A on him?  No.  Not unless she some old Boomer Bomber or a nitwit preacherette.

Yeah, what scrubby sed!

Whether it was 30 years ago, or 3 days ago, it still speaks volumes about Saint John the Philanderer.

I will add that it does not affect my view of a person's qualifications for office; just what I think of him on a personal level.

Chan,

Please take this back...

"It was the furtiveness of Clinton, the stylelessness-- hitting on the help, or the little Arkansas girls working the booths that was so unworthy of a leader who ought to have proper courtesans."

Where is the style in leaving your crippled wife and kids for an heiress?

MCCain is the one who does not cheat except when he does, but that is OK by you.  Please defend your position.

PS By the way Bill Clinton is still married and has "honored" his marriage vows as has BHO

gregstolhand writes, "...PS By the way Bill Clinton is still married and has "honored" his marriage vows as has BHO"

Well, it's none of our business, but it has often been conjectured that at this juncture that marriage is more of a politico/business relationship.  Since Bill is a serial philanderer, not sure what you're trying to prove by that example.

I'm not going to take back my main point.  Even if Bill Clinton had been single, his style of hitting on women who were in one way or the other much subservient to him-- is what was off-putting.  He always seemed to be taking advantage rather than indulging in an affair of equals.

So again, it was the furtiveness of Bill's liaisons, and his tacky disrespect for the presidency in using the Oval Office for sordid sex-- his were sins of style and unworthiness.  "Unworthy"  has always been the adjective most fitting for Bill Clinton.

I don't know the full nature of McCain's sins against his wife.  I do know that he publicly confessed the other night that it was his biggest moral failing of his life.

I would remind you, gregstolhand, that John McCain made immense sacrifices for his country.  Neither Bill Clinton, who "loathed the military," nor Barack Obama, a creature of the "No ROTC" Ivy League has anything on their record to approach such service.

I'm not saying that McCain's war record buys hims a pass.  And neither does McCain.  But, as the events you site came right on the heels of his nearly 6 years of imprisonment and torture, is at least a mitigating circumstance.  Thieves and murderers have gotten a break for suffering less.

But, gregstoland, why are we wasting so much time on this.  Since when do Democrats give a shit about sexual morality or marital fidelity.  They made that clear in the late 90s.

Since the Republicans started making an election issue of it.  If that had been a strict criterion for public examination and partisan baiting a couple of generations ago we wouldn't have had the most important president of the 20th century, FDR.

The infidelity issue has no political traction with voters, aside from a very narrow segment.  At least McCain's first family (ex-wife and all 3 kids) still speak to him and support his candidacy, and his adopted son, Andy, actually works as CFO of Hensley & Co.   It is not like the Reagan family circus.

All this talk about McCain's infidelity is horseshit.

It arises on this thread as follows: did John McCain cheat in listening to Obama's interview at Saddleback when he wasn't to?: he says no he didn't and he doesn't cheat and complains bitterly  (and garners some tactical advantage by gigging up his NBC / New York Times hating base) about insinuations that that he cheated including by major media outlets--NBC/The Times--tillted against him; against that it is argued here if he cheated on his wife 30 years ago, it counts as circumstantially supporting that he cheated here.

To state this is to refute it.

Folks need to get lives.