Uh yeah ... most people I know ... they say of COURSE Obama is gonna deny it ... but they know more about his background than he does ... plus, doesn't he have incentive to lie?

Ah, what we do to rationalize racial prejudice.  

Hey! Maybe thats the draw of the Clinton campaign!  No, not out-and-out racism, but the sheer love of rediculous rationalizations!  I'm on to something....

I am a staunch opponent of Obama but this Muslim thing is just asinine.  There is nothing he can to do to quell it, either. His denial becomes "proof" to some.

The woman in that clip - this is the kind of person that holds America back from achieving the greatness of which it is capable.  Is it his name?  If he had a different name would she believe he wasn't Muslim?  And does it matter?  Is a Muslim American not an equal American?  West Virginians should be ashamed to share their state with this woman, who represents the negative stereotype many have for the state -  that most people there are poor and ignorant?

Critical thinking, the "fourth R".

"Denial as proof", isn't that one from Rove's handbook of (il)logical conclusions?

GSpinks: Yes, it's all the way up at number 2 in his playbook.

The muslim thing is only a rationale in the sense that it offers a way of saying he's weird and sort of dark-skinned without saying, "What!!!  Don't you get it?? This n*****r is running for president!!!  If he gets in, being white will mean nothing anymore!"

I think the operative issue is that she thinks he's a liar who doesn't love America. It's just less trouble to say "Muslim", which to her is much the same thing.

And calling her stupid just makes her more likely to vote for McCain.   Obama's Koolaid Brigade has little room to call anyone else a moron, given the idiocy of their dismissals.

It's very simple, gang. Ironyroad has touched on it already. The Muslim thing, the flag pin, Jeremiah Wright, the elitism charge (compared to GWB? come ON!), the guilt-by-mere-whiff-of-association, bittergate, and all the other idiotic irrelevancies that are spouted by the smear machines and parroted by the willfully ignorant--like the sad caricature of an American in this clip--all of them are just excuses.

Excuses not to vote for a black man.

It's just that simple.

And in the private echo chamber of her soul, this pathetic beast, and millions like her, can tell themselves "I didn't vote agin' Obama 'cuz he's black. I voted agin' him cuz'n he's a SECRET MOOSLIM what don't wear no flag pin and want to destroy 'Merica."

Whatever helps you sleep at night, honey-pie.

We love to tell ourselves what a great country we are--and we ARE a great country. But there are regions and demographics in this nation that are rotten to the core, and there are powerful forces that want to keep it that way. We have a lot of growing up to do. One of the great disappointments of this race for me has been how the Clintons--for whom I will always have great affection--fed into all that.

And the spectacle has only begun. It's going to be an ugly general election season. The first serious African-American candidacy will bring a lot of pus to the surface, like this purulent woman, for all the world to see. Let's hope the drainage does us some good, win or lose.

Thank you sullydog!  And I keep getting back to Obama's race talk and his asking for a national dialog on it.  I still don't get what a 'national dialog' is supposed to mean, but anything would be better than this hiding it under stupid excuses stuff.  The Clinton's themselves have shown the bigotry they deny with little slips and slaps.  Inside their heads there's things floating around like: "I love black people - in their places of course."  I'm positive many of those WV voters have black people they consider friends, but wouldn't have over for dinner.  (This stuff goes the other way as well, but since I'm white, I can dump on white bigots with impunity).  

I've supported Obama for months, but am completely aware of his problem with racism, not race.  He's chosen to only discuss it in a positive manner, and I applaud that decision.  I believe he'll win a general election in spite of this issue, because there's a much larger majority of citizens today who don't share racist views than those that do.  That group will vote based upon the candidates and their stands - he'll win.

I'm still surprised that Republican state legislators across the country have not been pushing bills to require candidates to be listed on ballots with their full names. I would think that getting the Muslim-sounding name "Hussein" on the ballot would be pretty important to the GOP this fall.

But the question for Democrats is how many of the people who pretend to believe that Obama is a Muslim would be willing to vote for any Democrat at all.

Irony and Sully: right on.

Jmkerr: "I think the operative issue is that she thinks he's a liar who doesn't love America." Nah, it's cause he's a nigger.  If you think someone is a liar who doesn't love America, you just say it - there is no taboo against that.  Just as right now, in American politics, there is no taboo against vilifying Muslims.  But you can't call a spade a spade, so speak, and so she called Obama a Muslim.  

And you're right: calling her stupid for her comment is not right.  But she would be stupid if she votes for McCain in the General Election because she thinks Obama is Muslim.  She'd be stupid not because she's prejudiced, but because another Republican in the White House is going to mean disaster for her economically.

First, Icarus, why is calling her stupid not right? I mean, Obama can't do it but WE sure can! What is the definition of stupidity if it's NOT believing something is true when it's refutable on any number of factual bases?

Second, this woman's attitude is no surprise to me. I am a native Southerner. My family all live in the south. I have seen this woman all my life and have not a few of her in my extended family. In fact, one of the things I've seen during this primary campaign is hate emails directed at Obama about twice a week from family members. How many hate emails about Clinton? Zero. Now these are people who are absolutely NEVER gonna vote for a Democrat, so there's no love lost between them and the Clintons, but I literally have not seen a single email attacking her. I've called the worst of my family members on this racism but get no response. They don't care if they're racists - they know what they know and that's the end of the discussion. These people are absolutely unreachable through logical, intelligent and well-informed discourse.

jmkerr, i was wondering how long it would be before we saw the koolaid thing again, it's been a while.  I'm curious, though, what's in the stuff that Clinton's supporters drink that cause them to think she can still win?

Sullydog: You are typical of the legions of people who cannot make even the most elementary distinctions. It seems to have escaped you but Republicans bait white Democrats as well, on non - issues like the flag pin. As for the Wright matter, the person responsible for this was Barack Obama. It transpires that the Great One sat in a paranoid, hate - filled church for an entire generation and said nothing. This issue does not derive from any McCarthyite trick or devious Hillaryiac distortion. Obama placed himself there and now he tells us that he is a different kind of politician - yes, and I have some land that I want to sell you on Phobos (that is one of the two tiny moons of Mars). Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. I suggest that you read the superb piece written by Leon Wieseltier concerning Wright that was just posted out here yesterday, if your 75 - watt mind will allow you to get through it. And then tell me that Leon is ignorant. Lastly, to really tie your small mind into knots, I was a great admirer of Obama's initially, until he started spewing platitudes and vacusous formulations. I am not so easily gulled as some of you are.

"But the question for Democrats is how many of the people who pretend to believe that Obama is a Muslim would be willing to vote for any Democrat at all."

The answer, unfortunately, is more than you might think.  I'd be willing to bet that the woman in that clip is a Byrd supporter, and probably voted for Bill Clinton at least once.

Unfortunately, the Democratic party has its share of bigots, though thankfully not nearly so many as in the past.

LR: To quote Bette Davis, "temper, temper".  Now, who is being "bitter and abusive"?

chmclean: was trying to play nice, know what I mean? :-)

It's a rubik-cube problem -- as soon as Obama addresses racism, then the campaign opens itself to being hit by race politics more openly, but if he doesn't do that (or only with some positive tweak) then the race dynamics still go on in secret.

Obama's great plus is his ability to make people feel good about the future -- intelligent optimism.  In that and other ways he's like JFK.  But when the racist wire is touched, people begin to feel bad -- even racists don't necessarily feel good about it, they feel negative:  resentful and threatened.  Both HRC now and McCain in the fall want to have as many negative feelings swirling around in the electorate as possible.  However, JFK managed to win over rabidly anti-Catholic West VA with his sense of optimism -- and skillfully deployed $$ and publicity.

Race is more difficult than Catholicism.  There are so many "excuses," as sullydog put it.  But Obama is causing these excuses, this buried threat, to rise to the surface, hopefully where they can be dealt with.  This is crucial strategically as the GOP will have lots of subliminal advertizing in the fall, suggesting race but not saying it.  Obama can neutralize that to a large degree by being open and not trying to be too "transcendent."

Racism isn't locked, cemented into place.  And no doubt some people don't even realize how they are reacting.  Obama has a big task, but also a great opportunity, to enable white working-class America to get beyond not only the overt racism of the pre-Civil Rights era, but also the buried evasive subterranean racism of the last few decades.

@liberal reformer: Most people who know me never use the adjective "typical" to describe me. But then, you don't know me. You just blabber like you do. And no, it hasn't escaped me that Repugs bait white dems--I never said anything to the contrary. I don't agree that Obama is responsible for the Wright matter, but in any case I wasn't making any distinctions about who was or was not to blame for the eruption of that noxious affair. I was making the point that this overblown Wright bullshit serves as a neat surrogate for those who don't want to vote for Obama because of his race. (And yes, the Wright affair HAS been distorted completely out of context, especially when you compare Wright's rantings with those of Haggee, Robertson, Falwell and all the other god-deluded fanatics who support GOP candidates.), Oh, and by the way, I DID read the Wieseltier--although I never called him ignorant.  

In short, I don't see any indication that you actually read my post, only that you reacted to it. There is nothing in your response that is on point, or even coherent.

Oh, and don't flatter yourself, friend. If you knew a thing about me, which you don't, you'd know that it takes a lot more than your poorly constructed ventings, half-hearted apologia, clumsy non-sequitors, ham-handed ad hominems, and an astronomical fun-fact to tie my mind in knots. No, the only thing that's even remotely puzzling to me about your post is just exactly where it suggests you best fit in the DSMIV.

Isn't there a wierd bit of mental jujitsu required to hate Obama simultaneously for being a "secret Muslim" and for the association with his *pastor* (not *imam*), Rev. Jeremiah Wright?  

cspencef:  no, because it's not about Islam or black pastors.  The only bit of mental jujitsu required is to find something to talk about that is ostensibly not racial but in fact is just that.

cspencef, cspencef, cspencef. You sweet, innocent, trusting, naive thing, you. Don't you realize that Wright is ALSO a SEEKRIT MOOSLIM? I mean, why else would he hate America and have parishioners named Osama? And just LOOK at those funny clothes! Wake up and smell the Turkish coffee, man! There's a WAR on! You can't afford to be this naive.

And Wright does support Imam Farrakhan, you know, of the Nation of Islam.  And we all know that all people who profess to Islam are brothers.  So Wright, by supporting Farrakhan, is really Osama bin Laden's brother, if not brothuh (all them dark skinned folks).  

Agree with Sully: no jujitsu required.

LR, simply put, since you are not a member of Trinity you truly have no idea what the services are like. If you attend for a month and come back and report that it is hate filled, then I will give what you say credence, until then...

And let us not forget, this woman is old, people of that generation in WV are in fact pretty damn stupid, most lack college educations and know little of the rest of the world. Why kowtow to them? I am sick of this "stupidity is the new authenticity" line that Hillary is now endorsing.

"cspencef:  no, because it's not about Islam or black pastors.  The only bit of mental jujitsu required is to find something to talk about that is ostensibly not racial but in fact is just that"

would this be Brazilian, or Japanese jujitsu?

"I am sick of this "stupidity is the new authenticity" line that Hillary is now endorsing."

I knew she was going to go too far drawing parallels between herself and McCain...