As of six weeks ago, every dollar raised by or for Hillary is a wasted dollar. Democrats cannot afford to waste any more dollars between now and November.

So as long as any fundraising-for-Hillary takes place after November, I kind of don't care. Until then, however, every dollar that goes to her is a dollar taken from a Democratic candidate who needs the money, and so every dollar raised to help Hillary retire her debts actively hurts the Democratic Party.

wtf? Isn't Obama her "opponent". That is some serious nerve on her part...

This idea of 'helping' HRC was poorly broadcast right from the start.

Firstly, as has been raised, it's not even legal to buy out a candidate.

Secondly any financial deal involving the leading candidate helping the trailing one can easily be spun to make HRC appear stronger and a tough negotiator and BHO look weaker and a novice.

Thirdly the outrage from BHO supporters was very easy to anticipate.

HRC won this round without a response.

Thank the lard. She can pay her own campaign debts. The idea of paying hers - especially to herself - is vomitous. And if I were a Clinton supporter who hated Obama [to do this I rewind four years to when I was a Dean supporter who hated Kerry], this wouldn't make me like Obama more, because I'd know my vote was being bought, and it would have nothing to do with Obama's actual fitness to be president.

So how does Obama make the Hillary supporters happy? He can't do it until he's the nominee, but then he can get a female vp with more experience than H has, preferably a governor, and/or offer H a cabinet post. Or he could just say screw it, I'm going to win with or without her supporters, some of whom are racists who would never vote for me no matter what I do. And the feminists - are they really going to vote for anti-abortion McCain? And then pick whoever peels off the most independents, regardless of gender.

So basically it comes down to this. Either Obama pays off her campaign debt and personal loans of over $10 million or what? Hillary will make even more trouble for Obama?

Basically, Hillary has thrown out her reprehensible  "kitchen sink " strategy and ratcheted it up by following the lead of North Korea. Call it the "Kim Il Jong" strategy of threatening to nuke her own party if her insane campaign isn't funded by her enemies. Now I have seen everything.

hotshot22: what round? seriously, besides a few politics junkies does anyone remotely care? It is the notion of these ridiculous pyrhic victories, Hillary has won more single women with two cats! Obama might pay off her debt, no he won't! That makes me think they never got it from the beginning. If they spent more time trying to get votes and not spinning who knows what could have happened.

As to the issue, I tend to believe that Hillary will pay herself off first, then the vendors. If she surprises me and eats the debt then Bill will just go make a bunch of speeches to 3rd world dictators to get it back, so even then, so what? I just find it so much fun to watch the HHS Hilltanic go down, who will she throw overboard next?

psantillana, have you ever gone to taylormarsh? those Hill supporters are just lunatics, out and out nutjobs. They will vote for McCain, risk overturning Roe Vs. Wade, continuation of the war, etc. simply out of pissy spite.

I am a swing voter, who has legitimate reasons to vote for McCain, and wish he won 8 years ago. If it were Edwards vs. McCain it truly would be a toss up to me (maybe lean to Edwards, but wouldn't be disappointed with McCain), and as I have said before if it were Hillary vs. Guiliani, I would vote for Hillary as much as I detest her because I think Guiliani (who thrives on crisis) would be insane. I am just not as sanguine about these Hillary supporters as you. God knows the answer.

blackton, funny i was a McCain 2000 supporter as well, but not now. Yes, of course you are right re: taylor marsh types. Yet typical HIllary voters won't be as incensed and crazed as Ms. Marsh and the MYDD crowd. My concern is that Billary will actually use W. Va. primary to propel her campaign on a final kamikaze mission. As much as they don't want to be the ones to settle it, supers will have to do it along with sane Hillary supporters on the Hill (e.g. Diane Feinstein et al).

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where Hillary asked Obama to help retire her campaign debt? This is speculation on speculation on speculation. Why are you guys making your heads explode over something based on zero facts? This blog has truly devolved into online AM talk radio.

And blackton, re: 'pissy spite.' I'm guessing you're familiar with the kettle and the pot metaphor. You're saying Clinton supporters would damn Roe v. Wade and the war to vote for McCain out of spite. And yet you'd vote for McCain over Clinton.And Edwards and McCain have has much in common politically as the Tooth Fairy and  the Prince of Wales but yet for you it's a toss-up.  So what are you voting on that's any different than these so-called deranged Clintonites?

I bestow you a Ph.D in circular logic. With high honors.

And daveis,  thank you for the Kim Il Jong reference! It'd been at least two days since someone here compared Clinton to a despot. I was going into withdrawal.

Ghengis Khan and Franco metaphors still available! Reserve now!

Blackton: HRC will find ways around the debt, but that's besides the point. The main point is that the unsolicited offer by BHO riled a section of his own supporters. Bile is evident in the comments to this topic on the NYT website. The cling/bitter error was expensive enough that it required a retraction to the public and this 'help' one required a clarification by the campaign to its own supporters. Unforced errors are best avoided when BHO is so close to the nomination.

I just read that Bill Clinton is going around W.Wa really badmouthing Obama as an elitist who doesn't understand them. Sigh. Then I read a whole slew of posts from some of her W.Va supporters saying they want her to mount an Independent campaign.

The whole thing is just becoming pathetic. I hope she has the sense to just bow out gracefully, but the longer this goes on and I hear people Like McAuliffe spinning that she still has a chance to win, I just wanto to cringe. Say what you will about the Republican candidates: when it was time to bow out, they all did so gracefully, and then got behind McCain.

Also regarding retiring her debt: I don't think Obama can legally even if he wanted to. Not from what I read elsewhere.

And everybody talks about her running again in 2012. Is that realistic even she tears the party apart in the process? I mean, she'd be a pariah.

I sent a rather long winded email to the Obama campaign about using my donations to pay Mark Penn (I was against it). This was before I realized that federal law prohibits campaign transfers over $2,000.

peter, babe. I think Roe Vs. Wade was terrible precedent, and in addition I supported and still continue to support our troop presence in Iraq. Beyond that, I am in full agreement with John McCain on McCain-Feingold, and McCain-Kennedy. I disagree with him about health care, believing Obama's position to be the best. Now can you understand this, no candidate is perfect for me. On some issues I disagree with McCain and on others I disagree with Obama. It comes down to who in the end to who I think will be better for America. It is not an easy call.

In addition, I think given a Dem. congress that McCain will govern from the center to get anything done, and lessen the deficit (I am a deficit hawk) I worry a Dem president and Congress will explode the deficit. Hopefully since Obama has made less promises as trillion dollar Hillary, he might cut back. His health care proposal is cheaper at least.

Did you ever hear of Reagan Democrats? Now can you distinguish between a Reagan Democrat and an out an out lefty like many Hillary supporters?

And please, read all of my posting, you know the part where I said I am a swing voter. That is kind of a clue wherein I didn't think it necessary to spell everything out for you. Let me also ad my critique does not apply to independents who would otherwise vote for McCain. The simple fact is that Hillary has not done well with independents. I am talking about Liberal Hillary supporters voting for McCain out of spite. Are you in favor of that?

I give you a Ph.D for obtuseness.

hotshot, I don't live in the states, if you say it is getting a lot of play then fine, I will take your word for it. I am still not sure how offering to help if she is the eventual loser (as we all know she will be) is all that bad. And his supporters will get over it if he does a few fund raising bits for her, under the banner "help bring the party together" type horseshit. of course, if she keeps attacking, then let her eat that 11.5 million.

She brought the debt upon herself.  Had she not stayed in so long--despite the fact that she had a flat and plenty of exits--she wouldn't be in this much of a mess.  

She's staying in so she can make it look like hers wasn't that crushing a defeat.  See?  I got 137,000 hillbillies to vote for me.  

scire, where did you read that?

Blackton, you're a swing voter all right, mood swings.

Obama, definitely doesn't think Roe vs Wade was terrible precdent. Obama, wants our troops out of Iraq as quickly as possible. Obama, said he was for public financing for general elections, once he raised a ton of money is now against it. Obama's healthcare plan, almost exactly the same as Hillary's maybe 5% cheaper.

So you're in favor of Obama, why? Seems like you're against most of his major campaign planks. For calling yourself a Reagan Democrat you've written some pretty nasty things against Hillary who clearly more espouses the Reagan Democrat pov and who has won the Reagan Democrat vote 60-40.

That leaves you voting for him based on personality, charisma and Clinton hatred. That sounds about right. Congratulations, you've just been named The Arianna Huffington Endowed Chair for Circular Logic at the  DeVry Institute.

Scire, I heard that Bill Clinton was meeting with the remnants of the Confederate Army in Huntington and they were planning raiding parties on Obama Headquarters. And Hillary's in Charleston about to unleash long quiet cels of the Red Brigade. And don't forget Chelsea. She's in the sticks burning copies of The Diary of Anne Frank.

Do you guys all synchronize your cuckoo clocks?

Well, I hope her rancid, racist, rants have killed off any of this talk. ("White Working Class!")

Please god, he'll grow a pair and do a Bush 2000 v McCain - IGNORE her, and let the craven media murder do the rest.  

And now the ethnic slurs against the hillbillies! Stop please, my sides are hurting from the laughter. Let me get a glass of water; then I want to hear all about how coal dust is part of a facist plot to poison Obama supporters.

Hillary?  Who's this Hillary you are all talking about?

Blackton, what I read was what Virginiacentrist says right below me. That he can fundraise for her, but he can only contribute $2000 to her campaign (2300 is a maximum contribution to a campaign that's still going on, but  only $2000 toward debt), that his doners are in no danger of having their money transferred to her. He can ask them to contribute money to retiring her debt, but he can't give her his. But I've read so many conflicting bits of information on this, I'm not sure which is correct, frankly.

Peter - do you think Hillary has a chance at the Democratic nomination?  

Hilarious kool-aid drinking cultism from a Hillary site, not to be believed - perhaps they provide baby bottles with special Hillary nipples to readers:

"Hillary is my surrogate mother. She reminds me so much of my own mother, strong and gentle at the same time. Doing what you have to do to survive. My mother is gone for almost 4 years now, but I know in my heart she would be pleased to see the example that Hillary is setting for everyone."

peter1943, how does it possibly help the democratic party if at this point she is still campaigning negatively?I think she has every right to campaign until the end, but when it's obvious she is not going to win the nomination, why make it ugly? Who does that serve? It doesn't serve her interests any more than it serves Obama's or the democratic electorate's. My concern is valid. And my mental state is not one of paranoia but exhaustion.

peter, ha, mood swings, reminds me of that Simpsons episode about Nappien.

just cut down on the snark ok and I will continue to spell out why I prefer Obama. The environment, I am afraid McCain might be too tied down to the old Republican wing. And while I think Roe Vs. Wade was bad precedent I am not overly fond of a court full of Scalia's. A divided court is Ok, Obama will basically only replace the liberals and Kennedy so it will still be divided.

I was a Reagan Democrat basically on defense and anti-Communism. That is thankfully over.

Besides, are you really interested in every goddamn view I have about every issue? Can you not conceive that there are people who are centrists, and can you not conceive that Hillary's belated populism is utterly phony? Go to her web site sometime and see her proposals.

Finally, can you also not conceive that some people are not cut out to be President? And in my view Hillary is not, now disagree with me about that but at least give me the courtesy to have my own opinion. You love Hillary, fine. Vote for her. It is a free ballot, in addition express your love to her with a blow up doll with her face on it. It is your right.

But Jesus Christ, get over your obsession with ME. It really is not healthy. Stop worrying about conferring on me imaginary degrees.

Address the issues. and acknowledge that there is no perfect candidate for some people.

Every thing in life doesn't have to be a contest, you know? You can't win this, there is no victory of any kind here, nor do I imagine I am winning this. I am simply making the freaking obvious point that for left wing liberals to vote for McCain is foolish. If I were a Liberal as much as I think Hillary is not fit to be President I would still vote for her, as I said I would do if she were against Guiliani. America would survive. Now, do you agree or not?

peter, obviously you are full of piss and vinegar today, but dude, you are getting tiresome. I suggest you use that blow up Hillary doll to relieve that tension you got going on. Just stay away from the neighbors dogs.

If you want people to think you are a clown, just please, keep it up. If you were even remotely amusing it would be fine. I gotta tell you, bone, adaglas, ratnerstar, adamvaught etc. know how to insult people without looking like a dick. You are fast approaching dick territory. Your snide comments are 10th grade material. Anyway, I am outta here, so vent to open space, dinner is on the table.

Ah Blackton, the typical online bully. Can dish it out, but can't take it.

I've singled you out because your attacks on folks  that deign disagree with you have been routinely abrasive and mean-spirited. Ad hominem attacks not much fun, are they?  

dinners over, I am sorry peter, you singled me out? what, is that some kind of threat? Besides, you have snide remarks for others as well. I made no crack about WV. I noticed you never did answer my question.

Honestly, I got no desire to "dish it out" nor to "take it." And obviously you have no idea what real bullies are. Online bully has an easy enough response, go to another web page, or simply ignore it. Are you really amenable to reason, or is it all snark today? You have not once addressed my main point, that for a left wing Liberal to vote for McCain out of spite is foolish. Do you agree or not? No evasions, no insults, no bs about ad hominem attacks, just answer the question. If you agree with me, then this has been a complete waste of time, if you don't garee with me, that it is not foolish, then state how it is not foolish.

Peter - again: does Hillary have a real chance at winning the Democratic nomination?

"the Obama people really are dead set against this"

Yes, We Are.

I would like Obama's campaign to pay off all my debts first.  Then Hillary's.

If there's anything left.

Let Hillary start holding bake sales to retire her debt. That and dig into her and Big Bill's deep pockets - $109 million.

Pay off HER loans and Mark Penn?

GTFOH.

HELL NO.

Send Bill-o out to do some speeches.

Wasting one minute of his time even on a fundraiser for her is one minute too many.

Blackton, I'd say online bullying starts with posting 4,529 times as you have in the past year.

Four thousand five hundred and tweny nine. (Click on your name, the stats are all there). Congrats, #1 by a wide margin.  I'd invite you'd to go back and read, say, twenty of your posts at random. Half of them will involve some sort of attack on other posters who disagree with you and the other half include overheated vitriol on why Hillary is a she-devil. (HHS Hiltantic, that's about a B minus. You can and have done much better!). Your vitriol is your right, but don't be surprised when you get pushed back.

This is a thread based on a wrong premise backed by no facts. Obama can't erase her debt, it's illegal. Hillary hasn't asked him to. The Clintons are probably worth 60-70 million, if their debt is $20 million, I'm sure she'll be able to raise enough to pay off vendors and then she'll probably eat her $12-15 million contribution. That leaves them with $40-50 million and Bill can make $10 million in a bad year. Somehow, I think they will survive. If the Clinton haters want to work themselves into a lather over this non-issue, godspeed. Sure, it's exhibiting a bitchiness and pettiness that is the polar opposite of what Obama has based his entire campaign on, but no one said American politics was the home of rational thinking.

Have a good night.

Peter - I think you've missed the premise of this post.  You're right, Obama was thinking about it; and donnors to the Obama campaign - and many here are, I suspect, donnors - don't like that.  It is not necessarily the case that Hillary haters are working themselves into a lather - as you say, somewhat snarkily, so please get off your high horse about others - but rather, supporters of a candidate are concerned about that candidate's use of money donated and are talking amongst themselves how to resolve the issue.

There is precedent for this, but probably before campaign finance reform - and so the concern of Obama's supporters is not out of place.  There were reports that Mrs. Clinton or her supproters had suggested that this is one way out - if the reports are wrong, then attack the reports, not the discussion.

As for your fight with Blackie - there is one point to which you have not replied: for feminist and liberal supporters of Mrs. Clinton, does it make any sense to vote for McCain?  

And Wandrey had a question: do you think, at this point, Mrs. Clinton has a reasonable shot at this?

Do you think it's the liberal and feminist women who say they won't vote for Obama in the fall? I'm willing to be it's probably those hardworking, white, non-college, economically disadvantaged(or to use Obama's unfortunate words "bitter) voters who will swing McCain's way. The feminists will come around once they cool down.

But Obama wasn't thinking of it! And neither was Clinton. This is a totally made up issue in the blogosphere that you guys are wringing your hands about and using as an excuse to foment more useless venting about evil Hillary so  folks can compare her to Korean dictators and the "Hiltantic."  

There was blog speculation that turned into someone asking Axelrod and Wolfson about it on the Sunday shows and now everyone is outraged. It was never discussed! It's just beyond silly and ridiculous.

If you think gently mocking folks who constantly take the discussion to a place where one candidate is consistently compared to genocidal maniacs, well that's a high horse I'm happy to ride. There's a scene in Woody Allen's Hannah and Her Sisters where the Max Von Sydow character says  "If Jesus Christ came back and saw what was being done in his name he'd never stop throwing up.' I'm pretty sure if Obama stopped by this comments section he'd be puking up his guts.

Don't you guys see the complete utter irony of supporting a guy who is against petty partisanship and cheap name calling and then participating in petty partisanship and cheap name calling?

"There's a scene in Woody Allen's Hannah and Her Sisters where the Max Von Sydow character says  "If Jesus Christ came back and saw what was being done in his name he'd never stop throwing up.' I'm pretty sure if Obama stopped by this comments section he'd be puking up his guts."

You Clinton supporters have *really* got to stop comparing Obama to Jesus Christ.

I was one of those Obama supporters who went apeshit. I wrote the campaign, commented on the blog, emailed Josh Marshall and the huffpost dude who was pushing the story. So I'm glad I wasn't alone.

I'm just lovin' the (in)attention to detail prevalent in the Anti-Obama brigade:

www.washingtonpost.com/.../AR2008021503193.html

He obviously has NOT AGREED to public funding, but to pursue an agreement to have a publicly funded general election. But why let a little thing like the truth get in the way of a good bout of Obama-bashing, eh?

I noticed you predictably refuse to answer the most obvious question as to why Obama supporters - and anyone interested in the Democratic party - have every right to be enraged at Hillary Clinton.  

Do you think Hillary Clinton has a realistic, provable path to the Democratic nomination?  Yes or frigging no?  Answer it! Unless you answer that question, you have no credibility at all.

This should go without saying, but here goes: it's hard to muster up civility or compassion when her spectacle of an endgame embarrassed me as a feminist and undermines the candidate who won -  with racialization and a ghoulish parody of feminism, no less.  Always my fav!

Yes, I have every right to be enraged at this woman - Hillary and her supporters, whatever it is you truly stand for besides resentment and entitlement, whine about her "right" to run.  FIne.  She and you, as adults,  also have to deal with the consequences of your delusional decisions and how they affect people and this party.  It's called personal accountability.  Stop blaming everyone else for Hillary's bizarre actions and your responses (a concept utterly missing from her entire campaign and all its accouterment).  Take responsibility.  

From hints I've seen so far, she's already overplaying her hand again. Insisting on key spots for her supporters (like Lanny Davis as AG) and other soft landings for her players Obama needs this like he needs a hole in the head. Let her flame out on her oen...

Woody: good one.

Peter: not just the blogosphere, and in any event, as I said, there is precedent for one candidate to assume the debts of the other for the sake of unity.  The idea of helping a candidate in debt is not outrageous in itself, as the end game nears, and as the need for unifying the Democratic Party becomes paramount, and in fact, as a supporter of Mrs. Clinton, instead of getting into a lather about others getting int a lather about this issue, you should try to make the point, in favour of your candidate, why this is not such a bad idea - but then you are more interested in sitting on your high horse than making a point.

As for people comparing her to mass murderers, I think you need a bit of perspective here.  There are different levels of political discussion.  Sometimes, for effect or to make a point, people make comparisons that may not make sense in their essential truth, but that make a point quickly.  Every intelligent person - and most people on this Talkback are fairly involved, intelligent and well-educated, precisely the kind of "elite" that your candidate once courted and now derides - are not going to take the comparisons literally.  So, I'd say, chill man.

Finally, I was amused by your observation that: "Don't you guys see the complete utter irony of supporting a guy who is against petty partisanship and cheap name calling and then participating in petty partisanship and cheap name calling?"  Two points.  Don't you see the complete utter irony of complaining about the petty partisanship of the PARTISANS of a candidate, given that the candidate your support has been nothing but a petty partisan and cheap campaigner?  Reminds me of bullies in high school who would come and hit you, and then when you hit them back or made fun of them or did something they didn't like, would complain about not playing fair.  

Have you read a single person here make inflammatory comments about any of the other candidates?  Reflect on that, and before you say "Clinton hater", wonder if your candidate might have had something to do with it.

GSpinks, I loved this line:

"It must be tempting for a campaign that has reached dizzying new financial heights to give up the guarantee of $85 million in federal funds for the prospect of being able to rake in even more -- and to get a financial edge over an opponent whose fundraising has been lackluster and whose party seems dispirited."

Let's see now.  Is this unethical?  No.  Illegal?  No.  Would the Republicans think a second to go down this route?  No.  Would the Washington Post even bother to write an editorial bemoaning the "parsing" of a Republican candidate, were the tables turned? No.  Would they even raise this if Clinton were the nominee?  Not likely.

Peter: you want to see why people get enraged, read the editorial.

Peter -

Hillary winning the "Reagan Democrats" is the biggest myth of this election. She's winning working class liberals and a few racist who come out to vote against Obama.

Bill Clinton never broke 50. He won the white vote with a plurality, and Perot got the Reagan Democrats BOTH TIMES.

The REagan Democrats wouldn't touch hillary with a 10 foot poll. These are the voters who ran kicking and screaming away from her in 1994.

At CNN you will find a hyperlink, "Aide: Clinton 'willing' to lend campaign more money" OK, click on it?

[next page] "Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn't here."

Uh-oh!

As a midlin donor to Hillary prior to late January and a decent donor to Obama since, I would be disturbed if her mismanaged campaign became Obama's responsibility in any way. Also, based on Hillary's behavior to this point: She will probably insist that he help her pay off everything. When he balks, she will instigate her supporters to whine, scream, and threaten. I know I wouldn't want to listen to it. No doubt, if he agreed to help, Hillary Co. would no doubt pad the bills. But Obama is a much more patient person than me.

What seems fair is for Obama to help her with the portion of the debt that is not her own loans and not what she owes to Penn/BursonMiller. This would include all innocent vendors and perhaps all of her owed staff, though he should considering not paying her debt to her top staff. That will probably leave something on the order of $5 or $6 million that Obama might agree to help pay back. This would be helpful to Hillary without assuming responsibility for what must ultimately  be her decisions.

This all is of course complicated by the Burson Miller VP now the top man in Hillary's operations, who would no doubt like to see Penn get paid off. But if there is any justice in this world, Obama wouldn't get blackmailed--as he no doubt will be by Hillary and her "team"--for Penn and Hillary's incompetence and mismanagement.

Icarusr, I think you hit the nail on the head.

"Would the Washington Post even bother to write an editorial bemoaning the "parsing" of a Republican candidate, were the tables turned? No. "

Indeed.