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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
30.04.2008
Can Hillary Still Win the Nomination?

One of the debates around our office these last two days has been whether it's still possible, as a practical matter, for Hillary to win. Or, more precisely, whether it's possible for the superdelegates to override the pledged delegates without provoking the kind of backlash that would doom Hillary.

My own feeling is that it is possible. The most likely place you'd find the backlash is obviously among black voters, who've been supporting Obama by a nearly 9-to-1 margin of late. But I don't think the African-American backlash would necessarily be overwhelming, for two reasons. First, the main source of the superdelegates' concerns--Jeremiah Wright--has nothing to do with the Clinton campaign. It's not the result of some dirty campaign trick. For that matter, the Clintons have almost entirely steered clear of it. In political terms, it's the equivalent of a meteor coming down and hitting your opponent. (Though whether it's struck Obama's pinky toe or his head is still an open question.) I don't see how it sows everlasting resentment against Hillary just because she happens to benefit.

Second, and more importantly, I think African American Democrats are probably just as pessimistic as white Democrats, if not more so, about the general-election fallout from the Wright fiasco. Remember that prior to Iowa, Obama's numbers among African Americans were pretty pedestrian. One of the reasons was their skepticism that white voters would embrace a black candidate. That obviously dissolved amid all the primary victories Obama piled up. But Wright has brought some of these concerns back to the surface. See this passage in today's Washington Post, for example:

Obama's latest denunciation of Wright came as many of his black supporters, sensing potential damage to his candidacy, expressed dismay about the pastor's widely quoted statements made Monday at the National Press Club in Washington. On black-oriented political blogs, on radio shows that appeal mainly to an African American audience and in general conversation, black supporters of Obama expressed a gnawing worry that Wright's bombastic comments could seriously threaten the White House bid of the first black candidate with a real chance of winning.

"I was, like, what is this guy doing?" Pennsylvania state Sen. Anthony Williams, an Obama supporter, said as he watched Wright bob and weave on television like a welterweight as he answered questions at the press club. Georgetown University professor Christopher Chambers, another Obama supporter, thought, "This is a disaster." Commenting on the blog Jack and Jill Politics, which says it offers "the black bourgeois perspective on American politics," Chambers assessed Obama's chances of beating Clinton in two words: "Game over."

It would obviously be a little traumatic, party cohesion-wise, for the superdelegates to reverse the pledged delegates. And I still think it's unlikely to happen. But if it does, and if Wright ends up being the reason, I don't see a massive revolt brewing.

On the other hand, it matters less what kind of backlash would actually ensue than what kind the superdelegates think would ensue. Which are two slightly different things. The superdelegates may anticipate a big backlash regardless of what's likely to happen.

That in mind, maybe the most important thing to look for Tuesday is how Obama does among black voters. I doubt the margins will change much--I don't expect many defections to Hillary--but a disappointing turnout could be a telling sign. Then again, so would overwhelming turnout.

--Noam Scheiber

Update: You can read Eve Fairbanks take on Noam's post here, and Noam's response to Eve's here.

Posted: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:02 PM with 102 comment(s)

Comments

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virginiacentrist said:

I disagree. I think the African Americans would go bazurk. But let's set that aside for a moment and think about who HATES Hillary Clinton the most (in the Democratic party). And there are some haters out there (ahem).

The most hateful folks are the rich white professionals and the young folks. These are the folks who are either (a) connected into the online organizational tools that can raise money (or perhaps organize civil strife in Denver or just cause general chaos at HRC campaign events) and (b) have the disposable income or disposable time to cause a ruckus and influence things. These are the folks that Hillary should be worried about.

I don't think we're there yet. And I hope we never get there. I don't want to be too dramatic here, but I believe firmly that a HRC nomination taken from Obama by the superdelegates because they think Obama is a bit less electable (it'll never happen, but we're playing with hypotheticals here) would cause an online insurrection against the Democratic party. Hillary wouldn't even want that kind of nomination.

Moveon.org and the netroots have planted the seeds (brilliantly) by framing the pledged delegate measure as the final measure in many people's minds. The popular vote metric might dull this a bit, but the "contests won" metric will make that look silly.

That being said - she can still get the nomination fairly. If Obama self-destructs (there are still a few openings for this - particularly if Rev. Wright starts spouting off again with actual dirt), then it's always possible that Hillary could get the nomination without the perception that it was "Clintonian" dealing. If Obama genuinely self-destructed (beyond repair), I'd be fine with Hillary...

April 30, 2008 7:21 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Oh and because I neglected to say it: good points on the black voters perhaps worrying again about a black man's ability to be elected in this country. I'm white, and that thought has crossed MY mind in the last few days as well (though, all things being equal, I still project Obama by 6-8 over McCain).

April 30, 2008 7:23 PM

virginiacentrist said:

here's what the Clintons will unleash if they take the nomination in an "unfair" manner;

www.dailykos.com/.../506340

$11k in a few hours for a Democratic Congressman that most folks have never heard of...just because a few people called his office and made racist remarks....

April 30, 2008 7:42 PM

AlanSP said:

As a practical matter, no she can't.  Remember that math still matters here.  The "superdelegate primary" is not not winner-take-all any more than any of the other primaries were.   Winning a majority of the remaining superdelegates won't cut it for Clinton.  She has to win around 70-75% of them, and that frankly isn't going to happen unless something way bigger hits.

A couple other points:

-You're kidding yourself if you think that Obama supporters are going to say to themselves, "Well, he had the nomination stolen, but it wasn't Hillary's fault, so she's ok in my book."  Basically, for his supporters, nothing short of a felony is going to be seen as a legitimate reason for overturning the pledged delegates.  This is true even among supporters worried about Wright's impact.  They would prefer to go with the guy who earned his shot at the presidency, even if he seems weaker.

-Also, Hillary has hardly steered clear of this.  Steering clear would be something along the lines of "That's between Barack and his pastor" or "it's up to voters to decide whether they think that's important." (for the record, this would have been best political play for Clinton).  Statements like "He wouldn't have been my pastor," and "I have to say that, you know, for Pastor Wright to have given his first sermon after 9/11 and to have blamed the United States for the attack, which happened in my city of New York, would have been just intolerable for me. And, therefore, I would have not been able to stay in the church" are *not* steering clear of it.

April 30, 2008 8:02 PM

arimelmed said:

It's not just African Americans that would go berzerk if the SD's overturned the inevitable pledged delegate win by Obama.   I'm a white man, and having supported Obama throughout this very long primary battle, I'd be very angry to see it happen.  Remember that many of us support Obama over Clinton because we think of her as something of a liar.  Someone who will take whatever position seems most likely to advance her next step.  It would be very tough indeed to ralley around her our nominee if she somehow manages to get enough SD's to endorse her.  As for Obama "self destructing", well that's much more likely if shrillary Clinton keeps shelling him.   She's continuing to fight a nasty negative campaign to the bitter end without any apparent concern that she's seriously damaging the likely nominee of her party.  With tactics like that I don't see how Clinton goes on to win.  Hopefully the SD's see the same thing.

April 30, 2008 8:04 PM

roidubouloi said:

I am sure virginia is correct just on the general principle that she usually is.  You guys should hire her.

I would only add that this question is almost meaningless until May 7.  It is asked in a vacuum.  After IN and NC, when it is clear that Hillary cannot catch up in either delegates or popular votes (and I still believe that will be the outcome although she might net a very slight gain from PA-IN-NC because of the Wright flap), the polls are going to start to suggest that.  The idea that Obama is going to self-destruct in some significant way is going to seem more and more implausible (talk about vetted and tested).  Then we will be in the endgame and the rules of the road will be different.

So, ask your question again on about May 10.

April 30, 2008 8:12 PM

timteeter said:

Sorry, but Wright does not meet the classic Edwin Edwards definition of beatability: being caught with "a live boy or a dead woman."  Without one or the other, Obama will get the nomimation.  Period.

April 30, 2008 8:18 PM

DMehlhorn said:

Friends,

This debate plays right into the "pledged delegates should influence superdelegates" spin that Team Obama has put out since day one.  

That just doesn't make any sense.  If Hillary ends up winning the popular vote (including Florida but excluding Michigan), then (1) the voice of the people will have spoken, and (2) Obama's brand will have taken a nose-dive due to the glare of national politics revealing connections such as Wright, Blackwell, and Rezko.  

In terms of pure math, there are reasons to believe that Florida may have some delegates seated, or perhaps even Michigan.  And, superdelegates are free to change their minds.  

Bottom line: whether superdelegates should follow the majority, or follow electability, a vast majority of them will and should break for Clinton if she comes out ahead in the ultimate popular vote.  

If Hillary becomes the nominee, she will be very tough for McCain.  Yes, she will help the GOP with turnout, and her own turnout will be suppressed by the feelings of the Obama supporters.  But most observers agree that the party will rally behind her; she has carefully built a centrist record of positions and policies; and she's shown (finally) a rapid ability to learn during her fight against Obama.  

April 30, 2008 8:27 PM

lymon1 said:

Broken record time: if she wins the popular vote then the backlash wouldn't be as bad.  If she doesn't win either delagates or popular vote, it'll be a bloodbath.  African-Americans will definitely protest in one way or another at the ballot box.  Nearly every fair-minded Dem will be turned off by the usurption of the voters.  

What gets weird is if Hillary eeks out a win in the popular vote via some landslide in Puerto Rico.  2.4 million registered voters, their first primary.  Latinos might use a Clinton victory as a way to flex *their* political muscle, warning the Dems not to "move the goalposts."

April 30, 2008 8:29 PM

castor said:

Ridiculous guys, absolutely ridiculous that this is even being mentioned in this space.  It's one thing to acknowledge that the editorial board at TNR was divided on who to get behind for the nomination.  It's another thing to feed into what is obviously a terribly destructive meme being foisted upon Dems by the Clinton campaign.  That a) she still has a real chance to win the nomination legitimately (which is what this 'fog of war'-type posts are really all about anyway), and b) that if she did steal the nomination, taking that  (A) is false, Dem supporters would not go beserk.  In situation in which the party elders kill off the most promising young dem in 16 years because we are scared of republican talking points, it is completely absurd to think we would have a shot at the presidency.  

The big problem with dems is that we always, always cave to republicans, to focus groups, and to real or percieved special interests (the GOP does this more but gets away with it better).  How can voters trust us to stand up to the bad guys abroad when we don't have the courage to stick up for our principles and our honour in trcivial elections.  

The attempted pigeon holing of Obama into a purely racial base is also mendacious at best.  It's like by saying "look it'll only be a couple of angry blacks, and they got nowhere else to turn", the Clinton campaign can make the pundocracy forget their senses for a while as to how absolutely catostrophic this would be towards the coalition Obama has built.

His campaign is much more about the young and soon to be powerful than blacks.  It is much more about convincing socially liberal mid-westerners that they can in good conscious vote for a Democrat.  Nominating Clinton will confirm not only all the worst assumptions black america has about politics, but all the fears of the generation which has finally engaged with the political process.  Not to mention, confirming all the fears the people in the center have that the dem party is too stupid and cowardly to be given the keys to the big guns.  We will lose not just blacks who will no longer dutifully come out to vote for white candidates while being told their day will come, we will lose the next generation of voters who for the first time in a decade feel proud to be americans, and we will lose any hope of winning over the next coaltion of older middle class whites who are ok with a black guy, but not a woman who used every dirty trick at the expense of her party just in a mad quest for power.  How do you think that polls?

April 30, 2008 8:35 PM

blackton said:

roid, I dunno, if Obama loses North Carolina on top of Indiana then he would be in serious trouble, regardless of how the string plays out. The bigwigs will go to him and say, "you had it, you lost it, fall on your sword" Obama is a bright guy, he knows in 4 or 8 years enough time will pass by and he will still be plenty young. And since he himself has never savaged Hillary, if Hillary loses in the fall that will be the death of that whole wing of the party.

And no matter how a Hillary Presidency plays out (probably badly) he won't be tied with it, and if it plays out well his falling on his sword will be a huge plus for him.

April 30, 2008 8:35 PM

DMehlhorn said:

Also, to arimelmed: "shrillary?"  Come on.  I cannot imagine the reaction arimelmed would have if someone made up a derogatory slur based upon Obama's name.  

This idea that Hillary is nasty, and therefore does not deserve the nomination, predates Obama being ahead in the pledged delegates.  arimelmed's comment is part of a long tradition of apparently unironic comments from Obama supporters along the lines of "that Clinton woman is secretive, dishonest, and Nixonian, and oh by the way I can't believe that she has the nerve to say negative things about Obama."  One senior supporter went on record calling her a "monster" -- not an out-of-the-blue gaffe, but rather part of a pattern of nastiness that was only a problem because it became too public.  Obama himself castigated her for lack of truthfulness back when she was way ahead in the polls, seen as the presumptive nominee, and training 100% of her fire at the Republican Party.  Why can't these otherwise progressive Dems notice the double standard?  And, by the way, few historians would characterize her campaign as particularly negative compared with pretty much any slice of human political history.  

The fact that Obama's supporters have used ongoing character assination as ammunition and motivation against Hillary is disturbing for three reasons.  First. it's completely unfair.  I'm not sure Hillary will be a better president than Obama or McCain (you could make the case for any of the three), but she is clearly not a monster.  She is a complicated, ambitious, hardworking, intelligent, and very determined public servant who has shown flaws but has also shown character.  Second, we have to ask why the first serious and credible female candidate for president is being treated with this double standard.  Third, Obama deserves to be held to a higher standard, because he claims to be a new type of politician.  Given that he has shown few hints of bipartisanship in his entire public life, we need to look at the conduct of his campaign to determine his ability to unite our country.  In light of that, we need to ask why he can't get his campaign supporters, from Samantha Powers to arielmed to thousands others, to be more civil about his only remaining primary opponent.  

April 30, 2008 8:52 PM

scire said:

I'm agree with castor, and share arimelmed's sentiments.

April 30, 2008 8:56 PM

ralphnelle said:

Wow, this is the most naive thing I've ever read by Noam, who's almost always razor sharp and realistic. A superdelegate override of the pledged delegates would be an utter debacle for the democratic party. We'd become the laughing stock of Washington for generations, and we'd deserve it. And we'd deserve the "elitist" title more than ever. If the GOP played its cards right, it could even cause a permanent defection by AA voters. If it did, we'd deserve that too.

This email from a Sullivan reader sums up the sentiment very accurately:

"If Obama is done in by this whole Wright thing I am done with politics. I can't invest myself in something that is so sure to disappoint me time and time and time again. If the Democratic party decides that it can not risk nominating a great and decent African American man because his pastor is a scary African American man, it does not deserve power because it will have caved to what is worst about America. Racists on both sides of the divide will rejoice at having taking down the biggest threat to their belief system since Martin Luther King....and young people like myself will burrow deeper into to the holes we were in before Barack Obama dug us out."

That's about where I am on this. It's time for you media types to find some balls and, instead of continuing with your amoral he-said-she-said analysis, push back against this non-story with a journalistic crusade for the heart and soul of American political journalism. Make your jobs mean something. Our system is broken. There's lots to talk about, and the wild opinions of a religious clown just ain't it.

April 30, 2008 8:59 PM

Hungarian Great Bela Tarr said:

Well, myu love affair with The New Republic is over. "Fog of war" is right; how irresponsible of Scheiber to faux-naively take the position that a Clinton nomination is a real possibility. What is this, a local TV news broadcast?

But that's not what I want to comment on. All I'd really like to say here is that, just as it is racist for Hillary and her surrogates to selfishly warn others about "what the racists will say about Obama" (a Trojan horse effort to poison the nominating fight with racial bigotry), it is racist -- yes, racist, as well as profoundly idiotic and ignorant -- of Noam Scheiber to frame the reaction to a Clinton nomination in terms of "what the negroes will think." Only people like Scheiber and Bill O'Reilly think this way, obsessed with their fantasy that the progressive movement in this country is a composition of lily-livered white liberal voters and scary, volatile black voters.

I'm white, and I will dedicate my fucking life to destroying the Democratic Party if the party elites steal this hard-won nomination from the Democratic electorate. No, not stolen from Obama: stolen from the electorate, from the voters who, naively trusting in America's democratic process, have come out to the polls and made their preferences known. If the caucus states were going to count for less than the primary states, the party elites should have told me before I dragged my ass out in the cold to caucus for Obama in Iowa. If black primary votes were worthless in the superdelegates' eyes, the party "elders" should have saved African-American voters the trouble of their participation in this primary season.

"A little traumatic?" Shame on you, Mr. Scheiber. Your glibness, after the 7 years of the Bush Administration, of media complicity and Democratic capitulation, is really galling. That you can't see what you are, and consider yourself some sort of antidote to the inane and destructive political coverage that predominates in cable media, is the scariest thing of all.

April 30, 2008 9:08 PM

blackton said:

DMehlhorn, wtf? There is a huge difference between Obama supporters and Obama. Obama has not said these things, so why the hell do you care what his supporters say? Little sensitive are we? Hillary has run a pretty disastrous campaign, to lose to a black guy with the name of Barack Hussein Obama isn't that confidence building, and the fact is she can only win because Obama himself has had problems, imagine if Obama went to another church with a modest preacher, then this would have been over by now.

Hillary has said she is ready from day one, but has shown herself not to be. She arrogantly presumed she would win in January and hence did not set up any organization in any caucus states, allowing Obama to win by 50% in Idaho and Hawaii. 50% That is disgraceful on her part. There is no way Obama is that much more popular there. So she was incompetent then. How is this a good sign?

She can not win because people like her, 53% of Americans have an unfavorable view of her, and you need only look at the things she has said to see why this is so. She has said that, on the record, that the voting is only a part of the Democratic process trying to justify in advance superdelegates choosing her. She conceded that the majority of the actual voters don't like her, but that she should still get the nomination. She counts her vote total in Michigan as 328,000 to 0 and touts those numbers as proof of her popularity when she knows full well Obama's name was not on the ballot.

Honestly, I could go on and on. Listen, next to George Bush she is a ray of sunshine, but as Americans we can do better than her. She has deep flaws, and as President is utterly illequipped to deal with them. She simply doesn't have the reservoir of goodwill necessary.

McCain does, Obama did, Hillary never did and never will. Not a good thing for the country.

April 30, 2008 9:17 PM

blackton said:

One last thing, Obama only needs 290 more, Hillary needs 425. Obama will probably pick up close to 190 more pledged delegates leaving him only needing 100 supers. Hillary will need about 200. When people see on June that Obama is that much closer, only 5% away compared to Hillarys over 10%, it will strike many people (if not most) as being unfair.

And if they went to Hillary and lost, all of the superdelegates who chose Hillary at the end will have a big bullseye painted on their forehead. Going with the majority means going with the herd even if Obama lost in November. Besides, Hillary does represent the past, that crew is no long term threat to peoples careers. In 20 years most will be dead, in 20 years most Obama supporters will be in their electoral prime. Who do most people want to curry favor with?

April 30, 2008 9:27 PM

virginiacentrist said:

"The fact that Obama's supporters have used ongoing character assination as ammunition and motivation against Hillary is disturbing"

Actually, for me, one of the most inspiring things about this campaign has been how Obama's surrogates/supporters have gotten away with an all out character assault on Hillary Clinton without receiving any grief for it from anyone. Of course, it helps that most of the charges (particularly her tendency to be politically shameless) are pretty much demonstratably true. As a politician scientist (of sorts), I find the Obama campaign's overall branding and PR tactics to often be brilliant.

Throughout my life, nothing has given me more pleasure than watching entitled establishment politicians - those who have done nothing to merit power other than play the political game as carefully as possible for many decades - waltz into a primary or a general election and then get their asses handed to them by an upstart. There's nothing like it.

Hillary Clinton is a classic case of a candidate who was thrust towards the thrown because of her connections to the establishment. It's exhilerating to watch it all blow up in her face. How could we write a better story? The entitled establishment candidate - the safe choice - pushed aside by the talented but riskier upstart driven by an army of inspired and sometimes naive young people. It's great stuff.

It would be a shame if the establishment swooped back in and took it all back. That would ruin the story.

April 30, 2008 9:53 PM

Tammy said:

This from Hungarian:

I'm white, and I will dedicate my fucking life to destroying the Democratic Party if the party elites steal this hard-won nomination from the Democratic electorate. No, not stolen from Obama: stolen from the electorate, from the voters who, naively trusting in America's democratic process, have come out to the polls and made their preferences known. If the caucus states were going to count for less than the primary states, the party elites should have told me before I dragged my ass out in the cold to caucus for Obama in Iowa. If black primary votes were worthless in the superdelegates' eyes, the party "elders" should have saved African-American voters the trouble of their participation in this primary season.

And this from Gabor Steingart:

In fact, there is now almost a national political obligation to nominate Obama. A vote by superdelegates against Obama would set off shock waves within American society, with incalculable consequences. Young people would be outraged, intellectuals would be bitter and violence could erupt in predominantly black urban neighborhoods around the country.  

What a quagmire.  Seems neither candidate will begin the general election with full legitimacy and confidence.  That means tons of work for the prevailing candidate.

Hungarian- I feel your pain.  It's very disappointing to read such things about a candidate you've invested so much in, but perhaps you can rethink your threat to "bury" the Democratic party.  Obama would likely not want you to do so.  Hard to believe but both he and Hillary are tied to the democratic collective identity.  All democrats need to support the nominee in the Fall because McSame is worse and would be the equivalent to a Bush third term.

April 30, 2008 9:58 PM

roidubouloi said:

blackton,

I wasn't saying it was irrelevant whether the still highly unlikely event occurs, i.e., Obama loses NC.  I was saying that this is a discussion in a vacuum on April 30.  In six days, the political landscape is going to change very dramatically.  If Obama wins NC, on May 7 he will have a 140 or more vote margin (including his current 21 super-delegate deficit).  I cannot see how he loses more than 20, worst case, in the remaining races.  There are 291 uncommitted supers.  Hillary would need 3/4 of them. That's 3:1.  In that case, the discussion about Hillary still winning gets bizarre.  If she then goes into overdrive with her negative campaign, trying to pull it out, maybe Obama has to answer in kind, or maybe the supers just decide they don't want to take any further risk in the general for her sake and shut it down.  If he wins big enough in NC, such that she ends up with a zero net gain for PA-IN-NC, they probably start falling off the fence and the delegate math quickly becomes impossible for her anyway.

In the highly unlikely event she pulls off an upset in NC, the question then becomes whether Obama is willing to fight for the nomination.  If he is, I think he can eviscerate her.  There are REASONS why 54% of the American public have an unfavorable opinion of Hillary.  There are REASONS why 58% of the American public regard her as untrustworthy.  In a normal framing battle, you have to start early and work it for a while before it takes hold.  In this case, Hillary comes pre-framed so to speak.  He just has to stoke those fires and watch her ignite.  Whether he wants this enough to do that, I cannot say.  

Win or lose in NC, this is Obama's if he wants to take it.  If I were in his shoes, I would.  If Hillary were to win the general, there won't be much left of the Democratic party by the end of her first time.  There will be gridlock in Washington as she emerges as a Republican, our problems with the economy, oil, the war will get worse because she has neither the guts nor the skill to change anything, and by the end of the four years, the Democrats will be the one's being blamed and we as a country will head deeper into this cycle of decline.  In four years, the party and its nomination won't be worth squat.  

I suppose Obams could let her take it by continuing to play nice no matter how negative she gets and figure that McCain will win the general, but one never knows.  When you are this close and the prize is within your grasp, I think you have to go get it.  Indeed, I think that is all that the party in some collective sense is really waiting for -- to see that Obama is ready to fight to win, not just to look good doing it -- before throwing Hillary over a cliff.

April 30, 2008 10:37 PM

peter1943 said:

Man, if you run as the unity candidate and the man you thanked when you were elected to the senate BEFORE you thanked your family turns out to be a conspiracy spewing kook/bigot, that seems sort of relevant. Sort of like  the fact that Dukakis let a convicted murderer out on a furlough was relevant. Both are significant lapses in judgement that seem obvious no matter your ideological stripe. You can argue against the way the issue is and will be distorted, but to say it's not relevant is a one way trip to Rationalization City.

If she passes him in the popular vote including Fla but not MI and the superdelegates, who no matter how you cut it are still delegates, somehow stampede to her, I think rioting in the streets is a bit excessive. Do I think Clinton can pull it off? Nope, but to suggest insurrection if your guy loses seems a bit extreme. Personally, I'm holding out for a deadlock and a Gore-Obama ticket. Speaking of which, why didn't you guys riot in 2000?

And poor Noam. He dares write his one in twenty Obama skeptical item and the crowd turns on him. If you want zero dissenting view points the Huffington Post is just a click away.

April 30, 2008 10:38 PM

peter1943 said:

So Virginia, you say you like it when the establishment get their asses handed to them by an upstart. What I like is when the upstart gets elected and proves to be wholly unqualified for the job. That Jesse Venture governor thing turned out so well! And that Carol Moseley Braun senate term was such a winner! And how's that Al Franken candidacy going? Oops, he forgot to pay his taxes. That is going to kill him. The only problem with the upstart gouging the eye out of the establishment there comes the final scene in Robert Redford's 'The Candidate." The Redford character wins and then the last line is 'Now what?'

Except this isn't a movie and the stakes are a little higher.

April 30, 2008 10:45 PM

DMehlhorn said:

blackton,

Fair enough about not blaming Obama for his supporters.  Obama appears to have conducted himself in a reasonably high-minded way; his recent stand on the gas tax holiday was courageous and cool; his speech on race relations itself is the sort of thing we need in the bully pulpit.  In short, he might be a good or even great president, which is a good thing since that's the most likely outcome.

But none of that should take anything away from Hillary Clinton.  Yes, she ran a leaden and uninspired campaign from pre-Iowa through Ohio.  Yes, she is disliked by many.  But does that mean she can't win the primary, or the general, or be a good president?  Does that mean that virginiacentrist is right that it's OK that "Obama's surrogates/supporters have gotten away with an all out character assault on Hillary Clinton without receiving any grief for it from anyone"?

No, for a few reasons:

(1)  I'm not sure there's much correlation between campaign competence and governing competence.  Remember all the praise Bush '00 received for its fundraising, crushing of primary opposition, and overcoming of Clinton's populariy?   The fact is that campaigning and governing require different and only mildly overlapping skills.  

(2)  Popular vote, popular vote, popular vote.  The Democratic party set up a system whereby superdelegates can weigh in.  A CLASSIC case for them to weigh in is if the pledged delegate vote is contrary to the overall popular vote (especially for the Democratic party in the wake of Bush v. Gore).  If Hillary wins the popular vote, after all the money and momentum and lead that Obama had, she deserves the nomination.  

(3)  Brands change fast in politics, and Hillary has been doing a MUCH better job lately.  Have you seen her speak since Ohio, or in Pennsylvania? Also, coming out of the primary, she will still have a massive money advantage, and she will face a GOP with its own massive brand problem.  I like McCain a lot, but he faces a serious challenge against either Dem candidate.  Given the massive money advantage Hillary will have, and her centrist positions, it will be hard for him to paint her as an old-school liberal.  

(4)  By all accounts, Hillary has been an extremely competent Senator (and, for the record, she was widely viewed as competent before she became First Lady).  If she wins office, there's plenty of reason to believe she will be an effective President -- especially given the learning curve she's been on during this primary thanks to the fight with Obama.  

As for virginiacentrist's point that character assassination in national politics is a good thing, when compared with the evil of people feeling entitled to power -- all I can say is that I hope you're being flip and you don't really mean it.  Yes, a nice "David vs. Goliath" story is great.  I was rooting for the Giants against the Patriots like the rest of the country.  But it wouldn't have been a great story if the Giants had been cheating.  If you agree that the Obama campaign's surrogates have been using character assassination, as you seem to, then that should infuriate you.  An exciting campaign storyline is much less important than a primary that respects the popular vote, or the choice of who will run our country for the next four years.  

April 30, 2008 10:52 PM

roidubouloi said:

No tammy, McSame isn't worse.  McSame and Hillary are on the same page.  The difference is that if McSame screws it up for the next four years, the Republican party is dead.  If Hillary screws it up for the next four years, the Democratic party is dead.

I'm with the Hungarian.  I'm a a Democratic party leader in the State of New York.  If there is an inside job that means 33 million people voted according to the process set out in detail by the party and then the result is thrown out and a decision by a group of party insiders substituted, I am quite done with the Democratic party.  It is time for something new.  You can argue that it is within the rules for the insiders to do that.  It is also within the rules for a few millions Democrats to say screw you and walk away.  It is supposed to be our party after all.  

I'd sooner join the NRA than do anything that will give any shred of support, direct, indirect or anything else to Hillary Clinton, ever.  So, maybe all Democrats "need to support the nominee," but you can be drop-dead sure that won't happen.  I, for one, would much rather lose with Obama than win with Hillary.  I don't think I am alone.

Beyond that, I am not experiencing the slightest bit of pain "reading such things about Obama" as you put it.  I haven't read anything at all the makes me less inclined to support him,  I will confess to being extremely frustrated that he refuses to stick a fork in Hillary and just dispatch her with a dose of her own Rovian tactics -- seemingly because he is worried about alienating Hillaristas like you.  After getting rid of Hillary, why, he could just figure that "all democrats need to support the nominee in the Fall because McSame is worse and would be the equivalent to a Bush third term."

I mean, you're ready to support Obama no matter what he does to Hillary, right?  You wouldn't run away just because he was, say, a little dismissive of her, would you?

April 30, 2008 10:53 PM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

Noam - the probability of her winning are so low that staying in the race and running her campaign the way she has (as opposed to the friendly Huckabee contests) just on the basis of "hey, you never know.  I might win the lottery" is irrational at this point.  

My sense is that she is trying to "bloody his nose" so that he'll lose in the general and she can run in 2012.  Senator Clyburn almost said as much while communicating the near-unanimous African-American viewpoint that Mr. and Mrs. Clinton were “committed to doing everything they possibly can to damage Obama to a point that he could never win.”

Needless to say, it will not work.  The more she digs up dirt, the deeper she gets in the hole.

(Senator Clyburn is of course neutral in this race and was cautioning the Clinton's with regard to the backlash their behavior may create.  See  thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/.../black-congressman-denounces-b-clintons-remarks)

April 30, 2008 11:08 PM

roidubouloi said:

If not including the declared non-elections in FL and MI, Hillary Clinton wins a majority of the popular vote and then a majority of the delegates, I will without question support her.  I will still despise her, but I will do my share because there are more important things in the world than Hillary Clinton.  After all, the only time in my entire voting life, spanning nearly 40 years, that I ever got to vote for someone for president with pleasure and see him win was in 1992.  

In other words, I can accept that the super-delegates are doing their appointed job if there is a split outcome between the pledged delegates and the legitimate popular vote and the difference in delegates is small enough that the super-delegate vote negates it.

The only other instance in which I would accept the supers right to substitute their judgment for that of the party membership would be a precipitous decline by Obama in the national polls that makes it legitimate for them to say that the early primary results have been rendered obsolete by new circumstances.  

The likelihood of any of that happening is nil.  The likelihood of Hillary winning the backing of the 3/4 of the supers she will need after the primaries is trivially low.

As for "character assassination," I have never seen any evidence that Hillary has one to assassinate.  Her stance on flag-burning and her speech before she voted for Bush's war pretty much confirmed that.  But even if she had something that might be called character, as long as she considers it fair to say that her Democratic opponent is not fit to be president, I consider it not merely the right, but the sacred duty, of every good Democrat to fuck her up any which way we can.

April 30, 2008 11:10 PM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

DMehlhorn, I think what Virginiacentrist meant is that if the character assassination is in fact true (i.e. Hillary really is a lying, dirty, good for nothing, etc.) then it's fair game.  Hence the:

"Of course, it helps that most of the charges (particularly her tendency to be politically shameless) are pretty much demonstrably true."

But I would agree with you that there is a slippery slope between bemused pride (like on this Gas Tax issue) and willful glee.  The latter is perhaps not the most becoming of political impulses although I admit that I succumb to it at times.

April 30, 2008 11:17 PM

tomeg said:

If Obama is thrown overboard by the Supers. Younger more affluent supporters with college educations will rebel and give up on politics while their elders say 'bye-bye' see ya' later' is that the youngers' bills are still being paid by the elders. Simple.

April 30, 2008 11:42 PM

roidubouloi said:

I've got one more thing to say on this subject and then I have to go do something, anything, productive.

Perhaps it is perplexing to some people that I would without hesitation support Hillary Clinton if she received a legitimate majority of the popular vote (which necessarily excludes the non-elections in FL and MI) and the super-delegates covered the gap, but not otherwise.

The reason is that I don't give a rat's ass about Hillary Clinton.  I cannot stand her.  But I am loyal to the Democratic party and to the millions of Democrats who work on its behalf.  I don't vote for Republicans, even if I think they might as individuals be good public servants (and I have a state assemblyman who fits that bill), because, however good and decent some may be individually, they are part of a profoundly corrupt machine the goals of which are a threat to the well-being of my country.  Conversely, regardless of how lame the Democratic leadership and elected officials can be, and often are, I stand with my fellow Democrats through thick and through the all too often thin.  I have spent a small fortune and hours of mental anguish and hours generally getting Democrats elected, and even some of them I didn't care for much, but it was the best we could do.

My original parting of the ways with Hillary Clinton was over just this issue.  I supported her, with pleasure, when she first ran for the senate in my state.  But as a local leader, I discovered that whenever we asked her for any kind of assistance -- assistance we needed to elect Democrats, not so that we could just have a good time -- we got nothing.  Not ever.  This was in sharp contrast to Chuck Schumer who has always helped us when asked.  I learned from this that for Hillary it is a one-way street.  She thinks we are supposed to support her to get her elected but she sees no reciprocal obligation to support the local Dems who support her.  I'm sure she is happy to do favors for her donors, but she cares nothing about people who have nothing in the game personally but just work as hard as they can for the good of the party.

Accordingly, if Hillary Clinton is the choice of my fellow Democrats, expressed through their votes in proper elections, I will support her FOR THEM, to maintain solidarity with them.  When I first became a local leader, I attended a seminar in NYC conducted by the DNC.  I looked around at the people with me, of every possible color and persuasion.  I listened to them speak about the process of getting Democrats elected.  I was enormously proud to be part of that group.  It felt like a good fight even when the odds weren't great.

On the other hand, if the choice is not the choice of my fellow Democrats but a choice in their stead made by the leadership, who are mostly a bunch of disappointing bums whose only saving grace is that they aren't nearly as bad as the vicious scum who lead the Republican party, then to hell with it.  I don't work for the Democratic party leadership.  I work for Democrats.

April 30, 2008 11:49 PM

glacialspeed said:

If the superdelegates steal the nomination from Obama, the most crucial defections will be young, urban professionals.  Forget race.  Young urban professionals of all types will tune out and stay at home...and we're the ones putting up all the online donations, remember?  The Dems are going to be stuck with Hillary, the most elite of the elite, trying to out-beer-swill a war hero.  Good luck with that.  

May 1, 2008 12:21 AM

odanuki1 said:

"This debate plays right into the "pledged delegates should influence superdelegates" spin that Team Obama has put out since day one."

Suggesting that people should behave according to certain principles isn't spin - it's a position.  Spin is 'gloss' added to facts to present them in a certain light.  

Spin would be saying that a 9% win in Pennsylvania was not wide enough to affect the race, or that it completely changed the game.  

May 1, 2008 12:42 AM

matthawk said:

The first point: African Americans would not hold it against the Democratic Party denied the first viable African American candidate for president, the candidate with the most delegates and highest popular vote count, the nomination, skipped right over him, and give it to the "white" candidate who came in second and who pleaded her case by saying, "You know, the nation really isn't ready to elect a black man." No, the African American community would never be offended by that. They would never see that is America, true to form, of course not.

Second point: Only African Americans would be offended because Barack Obama is the "black" candidate for president, and not the candidate who happens to be black. Even though he has gone out of his way to run a unifying campaign that emphasizes the need to change the money-driven, lobbyist controlled Washington establishment, the only people who have a stake in his candidacy are African Americans; not the well-educated of all races, not young and independent voters, not political reformers. Right. Just keep believing that one.

Third point: The superdelegates could say that Wright is the reason, or they could it is because of the weather. It doesn't matter. Nobody will believe them. Why should they? They are politicians, a group that, by definition rarely tells you the truth. What people will see will be what it is (a) white affirmative action to benefit Hillary, (b) the old Washington political insider's club reasserting itself, and (c) a smokescreen and diversion from holding people accountable for supporting NAFTA and GATT and voting for the war in Iraq and provoking one with Iran.

And Ralph Nadar and John McCain will be the beneficiaries, as well they should be if the Democrats coronate Hillary even though she hasn't earned it.

May 1, 2008 12:44 AM

odanuki1 said:

"What I like is when the upstart gets elected and proves to be wholly unqualified for the job."

You know that some of our most revered presidents, Lincoln and Kennedy, were relative greenhorns right?

May 1, 2008 12:48 AM

dsmth said:

There's plenty of time between now and November for Wright to evaporate.  How can he not?

May 1, 2008 12:52 AM

nturner said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Effete liberals and African Americans would be stupid to get sour grapes because their messiah didn't win the nomination.  Doing so would be a classic case of cutting one's nose off to spite his/her face.  

For Reagan Democrats, however, the choice to support McCain is entirely rational, even defensible.  These folks don't like Obama, yet they have been given an independent-minded, reach-across-the-aisle, war hero.  When these folks desert the Democratic Party in droves, we'll have only ourselves to blame.

That having been said.... Just look at the comments to Noam's post if you want to see how nutty Obama supporters have become.  It's all "How Dare You!!!!!" on here.  Fortunately, you folks (and those like you) make up a minuscule portion of the population, which is why you're all shocked, SHOCKED when Hillary wins in big states when people actually VOTE.

May 1, 2008 12:57 AM

aeromonas said:

Shit.  I just looked at the RCP North Carolina polls.  Obama's lead has been cut by more than 50% in the last week, and the most recent poll done on the 29th has Clinton UP by 2.0.  Wright is fucking killing him! The only bright spot is that these polls wouldn't have been done in time to see the effects of Obama's "denunciation."  

I'm registered to vote in Carolina, but I didn't get it together to request an absentee ballot.  (I'm living abroad)  I didn't think it'd make a difference.  Oh, well.  I'm still gonna have to give the Tarheel state to Obama, only by 8 pts instead of 15.

May 1, 2008 1:03 AM

peter1943 said:

Kennedy was a war hero who served 14 years in Congress first. He was a consumate Washington insider.  Lincoln was a 150 years ago.

May 1, 2008 1:05 AM

aeromonas said:

"Effete liberals and African Americans would be stupid to get sour grapes because their messiah didn't win the nomination."

nturner, I'm so sick of this "messiah" shit, I just want to puke.  It's a personal insult to me.  I'm an Obama supporter, but he IS NOT MY MESSIAH!  Seriously, go fuck yourself.

May 1, 2008 1:06 AM

aeromonas said:

"Doing so would be a classic case of cutting one's nose off to spite his/her face."

Not even close.  Clearly you understand little of game theory, collective bargaining, or civil disobedience,

In the negotiation between the body politic of the Democratic Party and the superdelegates, the superdelegates are in a similar position to management in a labor negotiation and Obama supporters are in a position similar to the union.  The union (Obama supporters) needs to employ the threat of a strike (voter revolt) to ensure that management (superdelegates) endorses the desired agreement (nominate Obama.)  But to be effective, the threat needs to be real, i.e. in the unlikely event that the superdelegates don't fall in line, they need to get punished.  And if the supers do give it to Clinton, and if there is a revolt by Obama supporters and if such a revolt does cost Clinton the general election, its all to the good of the party.  If they even still exist, superdelegates will never again be so arrogant as to overturn the primary election results.

I'm slightly acquainted personally with an uncomitted superdelegate.  I wrote him a letter over a month ago encouraging him to vote for Obama and telling him I'd have a hard time voting for Clinton in the general.  Should he come down for Clinton and should she get the nomination as a result, I'll be writing another letter assuring him that for the first time in twenty years I'll not be voting for the Democratic candidate for president.

May 1, 2008 1:22 AM

matthawk said:

"I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Effete liberals and African Americans would be stupid to get sour grapes because their messiah didn't win the nomination.  Doing so would be a classic case of cutting one's nose off to spite his/her face."

The Democratic Party is long overdo for reform since the DLC took it over. There can be nothing dumber than voting habitually for the same political party, with regularity and predictability, so that they can take your vote for granted and deliver you nothing but compliments during the campaign season. If the Democrats choose once again to slap their grassroots constituency in the face then it would be the height of political naivete to turn out the vote for them in November.

This practice of voting for the Democrats no matter how frequently they take your vote for granted is really unhealthy for the political process. It means that Republicans write you off and the Democrats consider you to be a pocket vote that they don't have to spend political capital on. Plus you get the added indignity of getting the blame every time the Democrats lose an election; even though it is more likely that they lost because they failed to energize their grassroots the way the Republicans mobilize and energize theirs among Christian fundamentalists.

No, if the Party insiders want to steal the election then let the chips fall where they may and lets generate a little healthy competition around here. Blacks aren't so far removed from Republican cultural values, afterall, and the so-called "effete liberals" need relief from ignoring people, like Ralph Nadar, who really make much more sense (to a lot of progressives) than do the celebrity candidates.

So, let's make it interesting. It's time to get off the plantation of the Democratic Party when all they do is take your vote for granted and tell you that you have no place else to turn.

Perhaps lack of competition between the two political parties is really the central problem.

May 1, 2008 1:42 AM

Annabella2 said:

Here is one 70 year old White female who has never missed and election or primary and always voted for a Democrat who doesn't want anything to do with a party that would give the nomination to Hillary... I'm gone... would be good to have it bust up... what do I have to do with people who think Wright, who set out to destroy Obama's candidacy to prove to him that his hope of transcending racism is futile out of wounded narcissism, is the be all and end all of this campaign.  I don't want to be in the same party with them.  WE have nothing in common other than perhaps a contempt for what Republicans have done to this country and the way they have polluted the political discourse.  So I would vote for McCain strategically and because I genuinely believe, as one of you has said, that Hillary would be a disaster and the democratic party would be blamed.  As for McCain, either he will be honest and a genuine maverick again or he will kill the Republican party for good.  Anyway... I'm fine with either outcome.  No, obviously I'm not fine... but  I never liked Hillary and I'm one of the one's that despises her now for her intellectual mendacity, for precisely the type of narcissistic behavior that Roi describes, for her ineffably bad judgment on virtually everything... Virginia, I'm hearing you channel your Mom... didn't you say she was a Clinton supporter?  Tell me how the obama folks have done any character assassination of Clinton?  And is no one curious about the fact that Barbara Reynolds who set up the Wright Show is an avid Hillary supporter?  Just why is it, besides wounded narcissism, that he became so determined to destroy the Obama candidacy?

May 1, 2008 1:46 AM

Annabella2 said:

Yah NTurner where do you come up with this messiah bullshit... you mean our politics has become so debased that if a guy comes along who talks to us adults, seems intelligent and decent and in most things a man of integrity and we are pleased with that, it means we think he is a messiah... this is utterly the most bizarre argument that some of you are touting... Where do you get it from anyway and what the heck is all that about?

May 1, 2008 1:49 AM

ralphnelle said:

Stewart and Colbert are running circles around you amoral he-said-she-said types in the media. They're actually pointing out the hypocrisy and racism in these stories.

Did anyone see the Daily Show this evening? It's hands down the best thing I've seen on the Wright story. Hands down. And these guys are ENTERTAINERS! If entertainers are doing us a better service than our best  "opinion makers," we've got problems.

Frankly, I'd be embarrassed to work in the media this year. Almost nothing good is coming from it. Just more poison.

May 1, 2008 2:21 AM

naomi88 said:

aeromonas:

I wouldn't worry too much about that Insider Advantage poll that has Hillary up by a deuce.  First of all, it has the black turnout at only 25%, where the expected minimum for black turnout is about 33% (the early voting black turnout is at 38%). Secondly, that poll has blacks going for Obama at only 64-20, with 16 % undecided.  That's not gonna happen either.

In a way, polls like this are good.  They lower the expectations for Obama, so that if he just comes out with even a 7 or 8 point  (or 9.2!)  victory, it looks like a solid win.

So don't fret.  BTW, I don't buy for a second this scenario where a Clinton popular vote "victory" will win the nomination for her. There is no way to reasonably calculate the popular vote when you have primaries and caucuses, open primaries, closed primaries, primaries with a six week campaign to increase turnout, etc).  The Supers are not going to decide this based on popular vote.  Want proof, go here:

demconwatch.blogspot.com

This site has a rundown of all the supers and how they expect to vote.  Virtually NONE of the supers has identified the national popular vote as the basis on which they will cast their ballot.

You can count those who have on one hand.

May 1, 2008 2:38 AM

guyminuslife said:

"For the Clinton campaign, the reemergence of the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., soon after Obama's comments about "bitter" small-town voters, was supposed to be the moment when superdelegates decided Obama could not be elected president. Instead, he has won more superdelegate endorsements than Clinton in recent days, whittling her once-overwhelming lead down to about 20."

--WaPo

Answered.

May 1, 2008 3:11 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

DMelhorn - great post.

One point: I live in NY and Clinton has a mixed record, at best, as Senator.  She's funded teh upstate farmers she needed to get elected, so OK, not sure any NY Senator wouldnt do the same thing.  She's been good to vets - ditto.  But Ill still give her that.  

She's done nothing for Democrats as a brand and a party except bootlick Repubicans as feverishly as she possibly could (flag burning ammendment that she introduced, voting for the Bankrpucy Bil are my two favs, lets not even talk about the Iraq vote she changes her story about every week).  

I agree that she did a good job kissing up to the right to position herself for this run.  But she's thrown Democratic and Progressive values overboard to do it, I'm a mite fed up with that from spineless Democrats myself.  

Think she's spend her first four years doing the same so she'd get re-elected?  Me too.

May 1, 2008 8:01 AM

Tammy said:

Let me just say upfront that all the name-calling here "Mesiah," "Hillarista," "Hillbillary," etc, is disrespectful to someone here at TNR and likely elsewhere.  We all pay our subscriptions, so maybe we should call a truce on using such terms to describe Obama, Hillary and their supporters.

Roid, you never seem to answer the questions I pose to you.  You lay out complaints against Hillary but can't seem to answer questions about Obama.  There, you offer political commentary-- mostly along the lines of defending him or trivializing any political fallout he might encounter.  When will you confront his limitations?  For that matter, it seems others here might also want to recognize Barack's limitations.  

Barack has a problem with the white working class.  Much of it is racism on their part, but Barack has fumbled and missed opportunities to combat it.  During the campaign, he has not demonstrated that he can be the uniter he claims to be.  The demographic split between Obama and Hillary has solidified since Super T.  He doesn't have much of a federal record.  He essentially dropped his bags there and began running for president.  So the claim that Hillary has been ineffective as a senator is shallow.  Ineffective compared to Barack?  I think not.  At least she turns out to vote more often.  And, Obama has been very negative against Hillary- this is a huge one Obama supporters on TNR do not talk about.

The polls show a closed gap between Hillary and Barack- nationally and in NC and PA.  What this means is that people on the ground, as Dmelhourne points out, are split bewteen these candidates and that they see the limitations of BOTH.  Turns out they will have much more power than those of us on the TNR blogs to determine who will be the democratic nominee.  Most of us here are now fairly powerless.

May 1, 2008 8:21 AM

Tammy said:

Roid, as I said in another post, solidarity around the democratic collective identity is what's important.  I'm glad to read we would be united.

May 1, 2008 8:23 AM

bmalin said:

Since I don't see a clear path or Hillary to win the nomination short of an Obama implosion, I think if she is the nominee, she will lose support among many Obama groups, especially african americans and the young people of all stripes that he has brought into the process.  The latter is especially critical, and for me is why his campain is so important for the Demcrats.  They need to lure new demographics in the party to move a way from old line repulicans of the last 30 years.

What I find most striking about her campaign, and was is not talked about at all in relation to the superdelgates is that Obama won ll straight contests after Super Tuesday.  In fact he routed her in those contests winning 287 delegates to her 164.  Most striking of these victories in WA 52-26, MD, VA & DC 108-60, and WI where she was orginally projected to win.

In the 7 contests since, she has won  3 and he has won 4 (check the delegate count, he won TX 99-94).   She netted just 5 delegates in those contests.

My point, if Super Delegates look at who actually was competing for the nomination, they would be going for Obama hands down.  He has campaigned and fought in every contest, even ones he was sure to lose.  He's created a grass roots network with multiple feild offices and a funding mecahnism to keep his campaign going.  Hillary thought she was the presumtive nominee, could really be bothered with small states/caucus states, low electoral vote states, states where every candidate agreed to campaign or was on the ballot.  She expected this to be over on Super Tuesday, and when it wasn't finally realized she actually needed to campaign to win this thing.  I think the nomination should go to the candidate who actually wanted to win, and is winning.

Interesting question posed on Countdown last night.  If the Super Delegates/DNC decided to overturn the results of the primaries (assume Obama is ahead in everything at the end), does the nomination have to go to the person in second place?  Could they give it to some one else besides Hillary?  Hmmm.

May 1, 2008 8:41 AM

icarusr said:

Wand: it's called "triangulation", a strategy advanced by an amoral prostitute-toe sucking svengali by the name of Dick, who was a great friend of Bill's.  We had in operation for six years and all it gaves us was an impeachment and an official report about the uses of cigar tubes in the Oval Office.

Tammy: the more people on "white working class men", the more they denigrate the votes of every other "demographic group" that is also part of the voting process, in that it is simply assumed that these other demographic groups - young, affluent, black, white, whatever - will simply and out of duty fall behind the Democratic nominee.  If there ever were a true example of "arrogance", it is this.

Arrogance but also manifest and wilfull blindness of the process in which we are engaged.  As it has been pointed out time and again - to no effect for the supporters of Mrs. Clinton - the Democratic nomination process is not the General Election.  In the General Election, there is one rule for voting across the nation, and one vote per person (except in Arkansas and Mississippi).  In the nomination process, you have actual votes and caucuses, open and closed primaries, and then Texas ... the object of the exercise is to elect delegates as proxy votes for a candidate in the Convention to nominate the Democratic candidate for President, and _not_ to gauge actual popular votes or demographic support across the board and across the country.

The process has run its course.  The delegates are largely elected and they tend in the direction of Mr. Obama.  If the "supers" break for Mrs. Clinton on any basis other than the delegate count, they have to have a pretty darned good reason to do so.  Wright is not ia good reason; that a "black man" is allegedly not electable would not be a good reason either; "working class whites" is especially not a good reason, because of the arrogance factor I mentioned above.  Short of Obama actually declaring himself the Messiah, I cannot see a good reason for the supers to step in, effectively to "correct" the deficiencies of the delegate selection process.

And if they do, for the sake that of elusive working class white voter who may or may not vote for Mrs. Clinton in November, well then, it would not only be arrogant, but downright foolish to discount the possibility of massive defections and disaffection.

You choose.

May 1, 2008 8:58 AM

icarusr said:

bmalin: excellent post.  The Clinton campaign should be held up as the most fascinating real-life and tangible expression of Einstein's theory of general relativity, where everything - even an outright win, or 11, or however many more by Obama - "depends" on the position of the observer.  In this example, c, the only universal constant, would be the Clintons' overwheening ambition for power.

May 1, 2008 9:02 AM

Rhubarbs said:

D-Mel writes, "By all accounts, Hillary has been an extremely competent Senator (and, for the record, she was widely viewed as competent before she became First Lady)."

Um, what? As FLOTUS, Hillary was the person who wrecked healthcare reform for a generation and whose personal dishonesty transformed a couple of minor investigations into nothing into the panoply of "scandals" that nearly brought down her husband's presidency. There has never been a less "competent" First Lady in American history, in terms of helping or hurting her husband's work as president. And as for her work as senator, if you define "extreme competence" as voting for the Iraq war without reading the available intelligence reports (or, apparently, the title and text of the resolution itself), backing the punitive GOP bankruptcy bill, mastering the earmark/pork system, and otherwise not producing any significant legislation in seven years, then, yeah, she's like the best thing since Henry Clay.

Please, do tell, precisely what actions has Hillary taken that lead you to use the word "competent" within 100 words of her name?

May 1, 2008 9:04 AM

virginiacentrist said:

All-

I was *kind of* joking about enjoying the personal attacks on Hillary. But the truth of the matter is that I really don't like her. And part of effective campaigning is to find a way to undermine your opponent's character without feeling a backlash. That's the way the game is played.

To Obama's credit, it is VERY rare that he has made comments about Hillary's character. Beyond the "say anything do anything Washington politics" comment where she is inferred, it's been pretty clean in that respect.

His surrogates really haven't been that bad either. The HRC character assault is actually occuring at the one on one social level. Young people definitely engage in it. Black churches and black radio certainly engages in it. Rich professionals engage in it. Obama really hasn't needed to touch it.

May 1, 2008 9:09 AM

thejauntyboulevardier said:

Noam,

My short answer is yes. If she wins Indiana, I think she is almost a 50/50 bet, especially in light of the recent polls that show a sharp decline in support for Obama.

So, yes, I think she can still win the nomination.

May 1, 2008 9:14 AM

roidubouloi said:

Tammy,

I am aware of Obama's limitations.  He has a short political career.  But then the question arises, in relationship to whom?  I'm sorry, but this isn't Argentina.  I do not consider Hillary's time as the wife of either the US president or the governor of Arkansas a political career.  Maybe a chance to learn a bit about public speaking that seems not to have done her a whole lot of good.  I simply don't buy any of the Hillary spin on her life -- the tested, vetted, experienced, ready Day 1 business.  The way I count experience, she has less than Obama, not more.

Similarly, although she has more time in the senate, I cannot find anything that she has accomplished there other than making herself well-liked by right-wing Republicans, probably as part of her effort to position herself to run from president.  You can say that Obama dropped his bags and started to run for president.  I would say exactly the same thing about Hillary.  Except that her way of running for president from the day she stepped into the senate has been to pander to the right.  To my mine, she votes like a senator from Idaho.  Not at all what I expect form my senator from New York.  By comparison, I think Obama is reliably progressive.  With Hilllary, I am unable to sort out the pandering and her real views.  Either she shamelessly panders to the right or she actually is a crypto-Republican.  Which is worse?  I can't even decide.

As I have written above and elsewhere, in my direct experience of Hillary Clinton, it seems to me that she has shown little or no interest in the success of the Democratic party, as opposed to the success of the Democratic party.  As a national figure, she is viewed unfavorably by 54% of the American public which makes her an enormous liability for the party.  Obama on the other hand shows rare political talent and the ability to move lots of people, to bring new members of the party, and to get millions of small donors to support him so that, unlike Hillary, he is not captive to corporate interests.

My first choice was Biden.  My second choice was Edwards.  I am late to the Obama party, but not because I haven't considered his strengths and weaknesses.  I cannot figure out a single reason to support Hillary Clinton, not one.  I might ask you why one ought to support Hillary Clinton and whether her supporters have considered her weaknesses.  In politics, it is usually a matter of choosing the least bad alternative.  As between Obama and Hillary, I don't even find that a close call, with all of his faults and his relative inexperience for a presidential candidate (compared to most, not compared to Hillary.)

If you took away from what I wrote that we would necessarily "be united" behind any Democratic party nominee, you missed a good bit of what I had to say.  I will support the candidate selected by my fellow Democrats because I support them.  But if the leadership uses the power it gave itself to usurp the choice of rank and file Democrats, then I will not be united behind the brand or the candidate, I will be out of the Democratic party altogether and for good.  As much as I deplore the Republicans, at some point one has to admit that the alternative is hopeless and look for something else.  If the super-delegates reject the decision of the voters as expressed in both the delegates won in the designated process and in the votes cast in actual elections that everyone, particularly any voters who did not vote, understood to be actual elections (which means not including FL and MI), then I consider the Democratic party hopeless and would rather see it fail completely so that something else more worthy can take its place.  

May 1, 2008 9:14 AM

roidubouloi said:

bmalin,

The superdelegates do not have enough votes to give it to someone else.  The super delegates could, at least in theory, decline to vote for either Obama or Hillary, denying both a victory a the first ballot.  This would clearly require them to act in concert in a manner that is astonishingly unlikely.  After a first ballot with no decision, it would become an open convention in which anyone could be nominated -- I assume you are hoping for Gore.  

The issue is one of legitimacy.  If the party somehow decided to deny the nomination to Obama (this is but give it to Gore "for the good of the party," the Solomonic compromise might (who really knows) be accepted as legitimate, you know if he got 3,000 votes or something.  (Bear in mind that this is pure speculation of the science fiction variety because there really is no mechanism by which this can happen.)  But taking the nomination away from the winner to give it to the loser would be spitting in the faces of the rank and file voters.  That just ain't going to fly.  

The big flaw in the Hillarista arguments is that, in the absence of truly powerful evidence that Obama would be much worse than Hillary for the fortunes of the party, no one can really take issue with the party for nominating the winner of the designated process.  That choice is per se legitimate.  Thus, one side will be disappointed (one side has to be disappointed), but there is no basis upon which to attack or even criticize the decision.  The converse is emphatically not the case.  Thus, despite all the spin, I cannot imagine a bunch of party regulars courting disaster by elevating the loser over the winner.  They would need an extremely compelling reason to take such a step and I don't see how there can be one unless, as the say, Obama is caught in flagrante "with a live boy or a dead woman."

May 1, 2008 9:25 AM

roidubouloi said:

Oops, should have said:

"As I have written above and elsewhere, in my direct experience of Hillary Clinton, it seems to me that she has shown little or no interest in the success of the Democratic party, as opposed to the success of Hillary Clinton."

I need some more coffee.

May 1, 2008 9:29 AM

Tammy said:

I do not believe the democratic leadership will usurp the "will of the people."  If Hillary can't win either the pledged delegate lead (which she likley will not) or the primary vote total, she has no legitimate claim to the nom.  I just don't believe the supers will support a candidate with no legitimate claim.  They are already breaking more for Obama.  Where we differ, is that I think winning the popular vote is a legitimate claim.  

Roid, I got your point about supporting the people behind the candidate, not Hillary herself.  That was the solidarity I was referring to and I applaud it.  

I understand many of Hillary's weaknesses.  And I think if by some miracle she did get the nom, she would have a hell of a hard time winning the GE.  But I think its rather silly to keep pontificating about whose constituents would be more damaged or less likely to vote for the other guy/gal if their candidate didn't get the nod.  The blogs here are busy discussing youth and african-american fallout if Hill is the choice.  At least consider that there will be nearly equitable fallout among  Hillary's supporters.  

May 1, 2008 9:43 AM

yiscah said:

As a voter (not a pundit), I am attracted to candidates on the basis of my perception of their ability to address the country's looking problems.  When this primary race began, I was thrilled with the quantity and quality of all D choices available, and would happily have supported any one. Then there was Iowa, and a close friend who lives there told me about all the people who had never caucused before who came out to caucus for Obama.  So I tuned in to the NH debate to get a better look, and came away from that debate a strong supporter for Clinton.  She knew more, she had a far better grasp of the details and the extensiveness of all issues facing us.  Obama seemed like a pretty face that made people feel good.  "I will bring people together," he'd say, and I wanted to hear him say how.  He never did.  I've had enough of candidates who get into office who make people feel good (think Reagan.  think Bush).  I want an office-holder who knows what they are doing.

Then there was South Carolina, and Bill's race-baiting that turned me off.  Then there was this awareness that so many young people were so captivated by Obama, and that captivation did not seem to be the same kind of hard-core ideological political stupidity that so characterized the darlings of the Nader campaign.  I didn't get what they got, but they got something, and I'm intellectually honest enough to know that there are times when others know more than I do.

Now I've come completely around and yesterday I sent the Obama campaign $100.  My first contribution to anyone in this race.  Why?  Because he handles himself with grace.  Because he never sinks to the lowest common denominator:  He always articulates views that appeal to the highest principles.  He has never exhibited political pandering.  I admire the way he has handled the situation that Wright created, and I would admire these same traits in a president.  Nobody (even if they are president) can control the behavior of others; they only can control the behavior of themselves.  Obama has done this masterfully.

These are the kinds of skills the nation will need in the upcoming years.  We are facing problems of enormous proportions, and the solutions will require a massive reorientation of how we do things and who we are.  Health care represents close to 20% of the national economy, and it's a mess - the only way to clean up the mess is to adjust this massive portion of the economy.  We are failing to educate our children, the children that the baby boomers will need to support them in retirement.  On and on and on.

Clinton knows her stuff, but for the problems facing us now, character trumps knowledge.  Someone earlier compared Obama to Jesse Ventura.  I live in Minnesota and endured the Ventura governorship.  There's a big difference here:  Nobody ever expected Ventura to win, and that's why they voted for him.  He drew the protest vote against the same-old-same-old establishment candidates, neither of whom were terrible, they just were bland.  On the morning after election day, everyone was surprised.  That is not what is happening now, by a long shot.  People are voting for Obama because they WANT him to win, and if he does, on the morning after election day, they will wake up feeling satisfied.

May 1, 2008 9:46 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

I agree with Jaunty, I think Hillary can still pull this off.  The odds are high, but her support is passionate and her finances look better.  He numbers look good in IN.  What are the supers supposed to do if she wins the rest of the contests? Ignore it?  It would be a tough call, I dont envy them.

I also agree that at a certain point, Obama's appeal to blue collar whites faded - he cleaned up in that demographic until PA I must say, the media being as deep as a wading pool , forgot I guess. And so A Meme is Born. They certainly aren't the only important demographic with high numbers though.  

I watched "Bulworth" again last night, made in 1996.  It was great, as usual - and applied to this election exactly.  I can picture the 2008 Bulworth standing up at a podium in Indiana somewhere half drunk saying "Sure, politicians stand up in from of you Blue Collar types, waving their guns around and saying job jobs jobs over and over, until the two or three of you who actually have money write them a check for their campaign and then they take off for four years until they come back to do it all over again."  I cracked up.  Exactly HOW is Hillary planning on ushering in all of these zillions of jobs to IN again?

The Wright mess, and the media frenzy over it. has had an effect.  I think it is the most meaningless drivel I have ever seen, but the effect is there whether I l like it or not.

May 1, 2008 9:50 AM

prnoonan said:

If the party leaders decide that Obama should not be the nominee (and I am a long, long way right now from thinking this would be a reasonable decision), it should turn to Gore, not Clinton.  As a die-hard Obama supporter, I will not under any circumstances donate or volunteer for Clinton.

May 1, 2008 10:01 AM

bmalin said:

tammya,

You are right that there will fallout amoung Hillary's supports if she is not the nominee.  As an Obama supporter, I see the fallout of both camps as thus:

I would feel that Obama has earned the nomination and has created a new dynamic in the party with interest among younger voters, organization and fund raising.  Overturning the primary results (assuming he is ahead in delgates, votes, etc. at the end) means that the "party" is not interested in growth, only in what they perceive as winning.

From Clintons standpoint coming from an Obama supporter, I think Clinton supporters feel she is entitled to the nomination and that having been in and participated in the "party" for a long time, they should be able to decide what is best for the "party".

I understand many of Hillary's weaknesses.  And I think if by some miracle she did get the nom, she would have a hell of a hard time winning the GE.  But I think its rather silly to keep pontificating about whose constituents would be more damaged or less likely to vote for the other guy/gal if their candidate didn't get the nod.  The blogs here are busy discussing youth and african-american fallout if Hill is the choice.  At least consider that there will be nearly equitable fallout among  Hillary's supporters.  

May 1, 2008 10:08 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

Tammy - I'm curious about something - I want to hear the case that's made about Obama personally going negative on Hillary.  

Its a tedious, pointless argument between supporters and I'm not going to rebut, I'm just curious because you're a fair person and it honestly perplexes me.  I'm not saying the man is a saint, nor is he expected or required to be, I'm saying that my impression is that comparing the infamous kitchen sink toilet flush that's been flushed all over Obama and his mosty dignified response, to Obama's taking on Clinton seems so dishonest to me.

May 1, 2008 10:16 AM

kapny said:

IF Obama steals the nomination from the popular voters, continues to suppress Florida voters, and can't escape his cast of characters from his past, he will fall like George McGovern and you moveon.org whack-jobs can celebrate the John McCain presidency.  

Obama=McGOVERN.

Hillary on the other hand will trounce McCain, is able to win Florida with the Latinos (we will NOT vote for Mr. Obama), and can compete in the midwest and win some 'bitter' voters over.  She was great on O'Reilly last night, regardless of what you think of his show.

Hillary will win the popular vote even without Florida, but believe me, if Obama suppresses our voices, he will be punished in November.

HILLARY 2008!!!

May 1, 2008 10:21 AM

roidubouloi said:

I agree with prnoonan on this, and not, I don't think, because I don't like Hillary.  

Once again, we are sort of in the realm of science fiction when speculating that the supers will deny the nomination to the winner of more pledged delegates and the popular vote in the legitimate primaries and elections.  (I.e., not including FL and MI where there is no means of telling how the vote would have turned out if the candidates and the public had been told they were elections that actually counted in the process.)

However, if, somehow, the super-delegates wanted to claim that the compelling interests of the party require them to overturn the outcome of the public process, they might, and it is a big might, be able to persuade people of the legitimacy of their decision by picking a third person, saying, in effect, that the public process has somehow failed.  If, however, they simply elevate the loser over the winner, making the whole public process irrelevant, it is just a putsch and it cannot possibly lead to success in November.

I would add, again, that there really does not exist any mechanism by which this could happen.  The party leaders have no means of corralling the supers to participate in such a decision by getting them to  cast their votes on the first ballot so as to deny either Obama or Hillary a victory.  Can anyone imagine the firestorm if it emerged that the leadership was trying to arrange a Gore nomination in advance of the convention?  I just don't see this as possible in the real world.

May 1, 2008 10:24 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

I just have one request if Hillary gets the nod - girlfriend MUST get a comPLETE fashion makeover.  

Maybe that's sexist, but I don't care.  She has the most godawful clothes I have ever seen and would look so much better if she just handed herself over to a stylist.  The yellp/red/purple pantsuits with low heeled pumps with nude panthose?  Every bit of it must GO.

May 1, 2008 10:31 AM

roidubouloi said:

bmalin,

On what basis can Clinton supporters "feel she is entitled to the nomination?"  That attitude, or at least the perception of that attitude, justified or not, is part of what got Hillary into such trouble.

I don't really care whether there is fallout among Hillary's supporters if she loses the delegate race, the popular vote (in the real elections and caucuses, not including FL and MI), and then the nomination.  If the guy who gets more delegates and votes wins the nomination and Hillary and her supporters don't want to support his candidacy, so be it.  The outcome is legitimate and they have the equally legitimate right to support, or not, whomever they want in the elections.  It might teach the Democratic party something about how to organize the party.  

There actually are worse things than losing an election, even this one.  I regard conducting a nominating election in which 33 million or more people vote and then throwing out the result in favor of one preferred by party insiders to be worse.  I didn't think much of having the Supreme Court overturn the will of the American electorate (including Florida) either.  I actually think effective democracy is more important in protecting us than which one of these pols occupies the office at any given moment, because sooner or later democracy allows for correction, even if it can sometimes take a long time.  The single thing that ought to concern us most is the election-rigging that is going on through various means of excluding voters, gerrymandering districts, and failing to count votes.

We the people have the right to choose and even to make the wrong choice because it is our futures that are at stake, not the futures of the pols.  

May 1, 2008 10:33 AM

virginiacentrist said:

roidubouloi:

She's entitled to the nomination because she's worked so hard all of those years doing....something...

May 1, 2008 10:53 AM

cleavet said:

I think Clinton can still win the nomination. The final appeal to superdelegates will be based on momentum, and so a strong finish will make a strong impression. Here are the remaining primaries:

Indiana

North Carolina

West Virginia

Kentucky

Oregon

Puerto Rico

Montana

South Dakota

Pennsylvania was a good win for Clinton after a long hiatus. WV and KY will be blowouts in her favor (SurveyUSA has her up in KY by over 30 points). Therefore, IN and NC are crucial for her to establish a string of wins.

If Obama takes IN and NC then it's game over for Clinton.

If Obama loses IN and pulls double digits in NC then we have stasis.

If Obama loses IN and wins NC by single digits then her case is slightly strengthened.

If Obama loses both states Clinton will have a strong case to make about her momentum since she'll have taken five contests in a row and five of the final nine primaries (and most likely six, given Puerto Rico's leanings). If this is the outcome then I would consider her the favorite for the nomination.

Right now it's all about momentum, folks. Obama '08!

May 1, 2008 10:59 AM

icarusr said:

kapny: really persuasive.  Especially the capitalised Hillary at the end.

Just one question, out of intellectual curiosity.  If the "popular vote" is all that matters, why have delegate selection?  And if the "popular vote" is the clinching argument, then why would Mrs. Clinton argue that "there are no 'pledged' delegates" and that delegates should exercise their own judgement?  I mean, either the popular vote is everything, in which case delegates are bound and chained to the "popular votes" that elected them for a specific candidate, OR the delegates have the independence to go against the votes that put them there, in which case the votes don't really mean anything and the delegates everything.  If I assume complete good faith on the part of Mrs. Clinton, then there is a perplexing conundrum.

No conundrum at all if I assume Mrs. Clinton and her supporters will make any argument, no matter how ludicrous, and will adopted any position, no matter how contradictory, designed to get her nominated.

As well, all this harping on popular votes and primaries - what about caucuses?  Undemocratic, you say?  Great!  Let's hear Mrs. Clinton specifically and officially declare all caucuses and their results undemocratic and of no value.  Let's see how that will look.  Until then, let's cork this silly bottle.

May 1, 2008 11:07 AM

GSpinks said:

AlanSP *high five* I'm with ya, man.

That trick has been digging at Obama with every chance she gets: stumping, town halls, interviews, etc. The thing that really gets my goat is that EVERYONE is thinking Wright was being political on the pulpit and that makes this fair game, when he was obviously giving a sermon and teaching from the bible. She knows better, she knows exactly what is going on, but she has proven she has no qualms about deviating from the truth if it is a chance to make herself look good, or her opponent look bad.

May 1, 2008 11:10 AM

Daily Intelligencer - New York Magazine said:

Clinton's second wind may last only until the next primaries are decided or it may have come too late to change the end result of the race, no matter what happens on May 6. Either way, right now she's psyched.

May 1, 2008 11:17 AM

GSpinks said:

blackton: i totally agree, Obama will concede if the indicators are there, but I hope it never comes to pass.

I am not sure how America can afford 4 years of McBush if she loses, and a probable lame duck presidency if she wins.

Unfortunately I am a rules wonk, so I have to say that some of y'all are IDIOTS. The rules were written this way for a reason; they didn't just draw straws or use a random word generator! The definitive factor in deciding the nominee is the Electoral Vote, which is further divided between "super delegates" who are free to vote their conscience (be it for political hedging or otherwise), and "elected delegates" who represent the votes of the people. If you don't like how the rules worked this time, then either start working to change the rules for next time in a meaningful way (like, halving the number of delegates awarded, for instance), or STFU.

Michigan and Florida simply cannot be incorporated in any meaningful way; their primaries were corrupted the minute it was agreed upon by the DNC and all candidates (including Hillary) that their primaries would not be counted. They are corrupted because, in both states, a TON of voters just jumped over to the Republican primary and voted there, or stayed home. No matter what you do, the voters in these two states have been disenfranchised from this democratic primary.

Additionally, all of Hillary's talk is about her getting to count her votes; there is never any mention, and she avoids the questions, about what to do with the remaining votes. In MI, there were a lot of people who felt strongly enough to vote "other" on the ballot, instead of Hillary, their votes deserve to be incorporated somehow. In FL, Hillary promised no campaigning, but then turned up with her banners waving high in the sky, in some sort of GOTV or Greet the Vote deal, which is little more than a thinly veiled whistle stop that increases her face time and therefore improves her chances of pulling votes: "wow, that Hillary really does love us after all, she showed up in FL even though our vote will not be counted, I'll vote for her anyway because thats who I would want if my vote counted". The reality is that Clinton just wants to incorporate her votes so she can have a plausible claim to the nomination; she apparently has no plans to "enfranchise" the voters that didn't vote for her.

May 1, 2008 11:38 AM

GSpinks said:

"One senior supporter went on record calling her a "monster" -- not an out-of-the-blue gaffe, but rather part of a pattern of nastiness that was only a problem because it became too public"

I really love busting bubbles!!!

Uh, in the article that broke the story, the author basically indicates that it was a gaffe on the part of the speaker. The person was ranting about Hillary's kitchen sink strategy with all the negative attacks, and ended up going 1 sentence too far. The author also indicated that she more or less tried to take it back in the same breath.

*POP*

Its not that we'll riot if she wins; we'll riot if she wins because she, or her "surrogates", lied and/or cheated in order to discredit Obama or bolster her own reputation.

BTW: how is that sniper fire today? I heard they're getting better at picking off the people who duck and run for cover...

May 1, 2008 11:49 AM

roidubouloi said:

kapny,

Hillary is behind 611,000 votes as of today.  After NC and IN, that will surely be north of 700,000.  But, either way, if Hillary can win more than a net 612,000 votes in the remaining races, where about 4.5 million votes will be cast, requiring her to win a near 14% margin ON AVERAGE (well above PA), I would back the super-delegates in giving Hillary the nod.

Do you really believe this is possible?  Do you really think it is possible even if Obama doesn't win at least three of the remaining races, as he is expected to?  In the real world, that would require her to win about a 25% margin ON AVERAGE in the races she wins.

Just reviewing these numbers reminds me of why the wholly Hillary scenario really is just so much spin -- to what end, I don't know.

May 1, 2008 11:52 AM

roidubouloi said:

Spinks,

Everyone knows that the super-delegates are free to vote however they want.  It is perfectly for us to discuss and express strong opinions about what should motivate their decision and what will motivate their decision.  

If, as is likely, the pledged delegate count is close enough so that the as yet uncommitted supers could decide the outcome either way, I personally find it both acceptable and at least possibly legitimate in the eyes of the Democratic rank and file to nominate Hillary IFF she wins more votes in the legitimate primaries and caucuses.  As you point out, that cannot possibly include FL or MI because you cannot hold a self-selected opinion poll and than, after the fact, declare it to be a bona fide election.  There is simply no way to know what the vote and turnout would have been in a real election with real campaigning.

For the supers to make the popular vote their guide and choose Hilllary, one would expect that the margin in the popular vote would at least be the equal of the margin in delegates so that the outcome of the primaries and caucuses could fairly be cast as a split decision.  That would require at least 100,000 votes.  That makes Hillary's hurdle more than a net 700,000 to be able to claim.

By the way, I do not for a second believe that the rank and file can be sold on the notion that there is "a statistical tie."  Elections are not decided by statistics,  They are decided by votes.  We should all recall that the "statistical tie" business was the invention of William Safire before Bush v Gore was decided as the way to justify the Supreme Court deciding the outcome rather than counting the votes and seeing who got more.  That surely is not going to fly in the Democratic party.

May 1, 2008 12:08 PM

roidubouloi said:

Of course Hillary is psyched today.  This entire "fight" has been for no other purpose than keeping alive for her the fantasy that she may be president.  To the extent that that seems marginally more plausible today than it did before Wright stole the spotlight, she is enjoying exactly the endorphin rush she wants.

But mathematics is destiny, not endorphins.  She can only be psyched until May 7 because, one way or the other, the math is going to dominate after May 6.  She will not have gained enough in a best possible case and the remaining races will be too few.  That was actually clear after PA for those who can count, but it was more important that Hillary be able to keep her dreams alive for one more day.

May 1, 2008 12:13 PM

purcellneil said:

Noam,

If the superdelegates overturn the results of the primaries, that will be the end of voting Democrat for me.  I'm a white guy and it has nothing to do with race.  If Hillary steals this thing in a smoke-filled room, I will not vote for any Democrat.

Neil  

May 1, 2008 12:39 PM

eudoxie said:

You are in a word - DELUSIONAL.

White Progressives simply don't get it.

This isn't even about Barack Obama anymore.

This is about whether the Black Community is going to consign themselves to being put PERMANENTLY IN THE BACK OF THE BUS POLITICALLY.

Are you really that delusional that you believe that Black folk,

after seeing Hillary Clinton STEAL THE NOMINATION from the first viable Black candidate for President of the United States of America....  based on a foundation of RACEBAITING ...

That Black folk are going to vote for her?

Put down whatever drugs you are taking.

I'll use my own immediate family as an example.

There are  12 of us.

12 Black Democrats who vote in every election - Primary and General.

ONLY 2 will vote for Hillary.

2.

The rest of us haven't decided what we're going to do, but we are united in this..

We will NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton.

Here's a hint to you: don't try and threaten Black folk with ' bad times'. Being Black in America is the definition of 'bad time', so we see McCain as Bush III. We survived Bush/Cheney, we can survive John McCain.

I will NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton because I will NEVER become a complicit accomplice to saying that what she did was ok. I will NEVER validate her tactics.

Once she began to racebait Barack Obama, it wasn't even about Barack Obama anymore.

It was about ANY future Black politician with aspirations higher than a gerrymandered Congressional Seat.

Hillary Clinton, if she is validated, will have given the blueprint for how a DEMOCRAT can takeout future Black politicians. You can't possibly believe that this would be the exception and not the rule.

I'm not having any parts of that.

Black folk are told all their lives that they have to: Pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and FOLLOW THE RULES.

Well, Barack Obama has done BOTH...

I'll give a little insight to Black folk.

On the short list of things that bother Black folk to no end is the game of White folks to change the rules in the middle of the game to suit their purposes.

THAT is something all Black folk can relate to as we watch this bull#*$& going on with Florida and Michigan. They didn't follow the rules, but because it could help Clinton, suddenly the rules that everyone agreed on, don't apply anymore.

There comes a moment in every generation of Black folk where they have to..

As James Brown said..

I'd rather die standing...

Than live on my knees...

If you had told me that THAT moment would be about the campaign of Barack Obama, I wouldn't have believed you, but this is the way the winds of history seem to be shaping up.

The only difference between Democrats and Republicans to Black people are that Black folk believe that 'at least Democrats RESPECT US.'

IF they STEAL it for HIllary...

That will be gone.  And not just for this election cycle. It will be GONE.

You better stop listening to those Handkerchief Heads of Hillarys, cause the influence they have with Black tolk could fit into a thimble.

James Clyburn has already told you the truth about how Black folk are thinking.

This week, Rasmussen came out with a poll that showed Hillary with 59% support among Blacks.

I personally believe that's too high,but let's take Rasmussen at its word.

59% for a DEMOCRAT from THE BASE?

And this is BEFORE SHE STEALS IT?

I'll ask again: are you really that delusional that you believe it will GO UP after she STEALS IT?

Let me break the Black community down for you and explain why you are wrong.

Segment 1: Blue Collar Black Folk

This group is the least inclined to vote in the first place. They spend their time just trying to survive in America, but they are inspired by Obama, and are willing to participate in the process for them. For them, Obama is the first example that they can point to, where it might actually be worth is to 'believe in the system'. If it is STOLEN from Obama, those folks won't vote for Hillary, and a good number of them will not vote again, period.

But, usually, you can 'divide and conquer' with Black folk, using one of the the following 2 groups to try and influence and reason with Segment 1. But, guess what, that won't happen this time.

Segment 2: Middle Class & Professional Class Black Folk

There is a reason why this group, in the Black Community, was the first to fully embrace Barack Obama's candidacy..

BECAUSE HE IS ONE OF THEM.

Because this group completely identifies with Obama, and his quest, because they parallel it to their own struggles in Corporate America. They watch as Obama, playing by the rules as set out, worked his ass off and succeeded. And just as it seems as if he would cross the finish line, 'the bar' continues to be moved. They completely relate to this, because they know, in their own lives, how, following the rules and seeing the endzone in sight, how 'new rules' are often pulled out of nowhere, and they have to adapt, or lose.

These folks will never ever ever vote for Hillary, because a rejection of Obama, is a rejection of them. These are the Black folk most connected into ' The System', and they have followed the rules.

Which brings me to the last group, the failsafe group, USUALLY.

Segment 3: Black Senior Citizens

Usually, this is the 'rational' group. The ' well, they are nice White folks' group.

Not this time.

THIS is the group that has suffered the most. They have been forged by a world of dogs, firehoses, segregation in the North, Jim Crow in the South. They are the ones for him THE defining thing in their lives was being Black, because it limited the world that they lived. There was no such thing as ' career aspirations' for this group. There was no such thing ' what do you see for yourself'. They suffered humiliations that someone like me, in their 30's, can only imagine, and can only get an inking of because of the pain in the voices of the Elders as they tell their stories.

For them, Barack Obama is the essence of everything they ever thought they sacrificed for. He is the manifestation of all they had hoped America could be. His manners, and his adult life have been the very best melding of the modern with Old School, and they adore him. This is the group that wants to DIE knowing that the pain, the humiliation, the hurt, the degredation that they took, was FOR SOMETHING. They also see Obama as a gift for their grandchildren and future generations.

If it's STOLEN from Obama, then that would mean that their lives and all they went through WAS FOR NOTHING.

Black people are very clear about this: They know that if Obama can't make it, then truly, there will NEVER be a Black President of the United States. They know it instinctively.

And, you're delusional if you believe Black folk will vote for the person they believe STOLE IT FROM HIM.

PS- about the Wright attack at The NPC, in case you didn't know..

Wright's appearance was arranged by a huge Hillary Supporter, Barbara Reynolds.

Read Errol Louis' column this week in the New York Daily News.

There aren't enough coincidences in the Western World to convince Black folk that Clinton wasn't behind it. She doesn't get the benefit of the doubt...not after Billy Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, Bob Johnson, Andy Young, Geraldine Ferraro...you do understand now, why she gets no slack.

May 1, 2008 12:40 PM

ironyroad said:

GSpinks writes: "The thing that really gets my goat is that EVERYONE is thinking Wright was being political on the pulpit and that makes this fair game, when he was obviously giving a sermon and teaching from the bible."

The reason everyone thinks that is that they have eyes to see and ears to hear.  But in a sense you're on target, it's wasn't Wright being political per se.  It was Wright being psychopathic.  The guy is clearly and manifestly prepared to do what he can to torpedo the first African American to have a serious shot at the presidency of the United States.  Loose cannon, angry loser, wounded ego -- whatever you call it, he's out to throw a stick between Obama's legs and bring him down.

The question why is, at the moment, academic.  The question is how much damage he's done, and how much he's gonna do.  But the "why" is something one can't stop thinking about, as it seems to open up a very grim perspective on where a number of black Americans are at.  This is as if, in 1960, the Catholic priest at the church JFK attended had suddenly started talking about papal authority and asserting that JFK's speech at Houston to the Baptist Convention had just been "politics," not really serious -- that is, reviving old stereotypes is last thing you want when you're just about to remove the stereotype from the books.  But some people are in love with the past . . .

May 1, 2008 1:04 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

eudoxie - great post.  

WHite lady supporter of Obama here.  What do you think of this popular vote argument?  Is that stealing?  It is to me, but after watching the bloodbath Obama is taking after this Wright nonsense, and the dignity with which he has withstood the kitchen sink pile on - and yet is still somehow demonized by Hillary fanatics - nothing surprises me anymore.  

May 1, 2008 1:28 PM

BruceGG said:

I agree with those who say that Noam's analysis proves too much.

If the Reverend Wright disqualifies Obama as a viable candidate, or if Obama is literally struck by a bolt of lightning, it does not mean that the superdelegates, or any delegates need to vote for Hillary.

All the superdelegates need to do is deadlock the first ballot. Then hardly any delegate is legally bound by hardly anything.

One interesting fact here is John Edwards' refusal to endorse a candidate in his home state.  Couple that with Elizabeth Edwards' calculated efforts to keep her name out there, and stalking John McCain on health care, and you have.

A deadlocked convention turning to John Edwards.

May 1, 2008 3:01 PM

DMehlhorn said:

**yiscah -- great post.  

It's great to see a balanced consideration of both candidates before your decision to back Obama.  

**roid, virginiacentrist, GSpinks, other fair-minded friends of Obama -- some questions for you:

(1)  Why don't we include Florida in the popular vote tally?  

GSpinks, you're a rules wonk, so help me out here.  It's true that Hillary agreed not to campaign in Florida. It appears she lived up to that commitment.  It may even be that Obama did not, see blogs.cqpolitics.com/.../where-the-dem-rules-really-lea.html.  

But Hillary never agreed that Florida delegates should not be seated, and there are legitimate and fair reasons why some of them might get seated.  That debate is happening right now in the legitimate process set up by the Democratic Party.  The debate itself is not one-sided or abstract -- it's evenly balanced, with good facts and arguments and appeals to justice on both sides.  See wiki.idebate.org/.../Debate:Michigan_and_Florida_delegates_in_2008_US_elections.  

But, the delegate debate is separate from the debate about whether to count, as part of the "popular vote tally," the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who hauled it out to vote during that primary.  No one ever suggested to them that they should stay home.  Florida is a crucial swing state Democrats must win.  Why would Democrats not at least take those votes into account in considering who won the popular vote?  

Also, crucially, the REPUBLICANS SET THE DATE OF THE FLORIDA PRIMARY.  Doesn't any progressive Democrat on this blog see the potential irony of having the popular vote overturned due to a procedural rule in Florida set by Republicans -- but in the Democratic primary of '08 rather than the general election of '00?  

People on this blog obviously care and take the time to understand issues -- why can't we agree to a nuanced understanding of the situation, where Michigan shouldn't count, but maybe Florida should?  

(2)  At this stage, given the current facts, isn't the final popular vote important?  

I agree that the popular vote isn't everything.  Pledged delegates are obviously and legally a major determinant to who wins.  And superdelegates are allowed to consider whatever they want as a check and balance against the pledged delegates.

But shouldn't the popular vote matter at all?  Isn't that at least a factor that superdelegates should consider?  At this stage, given Obama's massive financial advantages and significant lead in the popular vote (even including Florida), if Hillary wins the remaining contests, isn't that a testament to her perseverance, her ability to connect with voters, and the performance of Obama in the face of the first major national media attention he's faced?  

On the flip side, if he wins the overall popular vote, isn't that the end of the story and proof (alongside his pledged-delegate win, his strategic mastery of the caucus states, his rhetoric, his resilience in the face of Wright, etc.) that he deserves the nomination?  

(3) Aren't pledged-delegate totals the ONE thing that superdelegates can't consider?  

As for the pledged delegates, it seems to me that's the ONE thing superdelegates can't consider.  After all, their very existence is as a check against the pledged delegates.  Their role is to provide independent review.  If they're just going to validate the previous process, then they shouldn't exist.  Maybe they shouldn't -- that's something to consider for the future.  But, today they have a role, and the fact that they have a "checks and balances" role means that they cannot simply rubber-stamp the pledged delegates vote.  

(4)  Are you sure that Barack is the underdog?  

Back to virginiacentrist and the underdog story, who is the underdog here?  The media has overwhelmingly opposed her from day one, using an arsenal of attacks that clearly includes misogyny.  The Ivy League educated Democrats, and the wealthier Democrats, have overwhelmingly supported Obama.  For many months, he's had an overwhelming money advantage, which he still has.  He has a massive advantage in pledged delegates.  Superdelegates, smelling his likely victory and wanting to pick the winning horse, have disproportionately bolted for him.  In light of all this, where do you come up with the idea that she's the one who's had this "handed" to her, or who has felt "entitled" to this?  Doesn't he have an overwhelming set of advantages, at least for the past half-year?  If Hillary manages to overcome that, doesn't that imply something important (and good) about her?  

(5)  Can we stop with the "stealing the election" rhetoric?  

Stealing the election is about ballot-stuffing, about voter fraud, not about the proper decision-criteria for superdelegates.  As kapny points out, in a race this close, with procedural issues this complex, either side can use the "steals the election" rhetoric against the other side.  Doing so is frankly unpatriotic, as it pours poison into the electoral process and delegitimizes the others' arguments.  We are all Americans, we (I think) are all Democrats -- heck, we're all TNR subscribers -- surely we can admit that this process, however it plays out, does not involve theft.  

**eudoxie -- dangerous argument.  

Obviously you make powerful points about history and justice.  The problem is that many women make similar, and similarly powerful, arguments about how similar experiences and injustices are "stealing" the election from Hillary (in terms of misogynist comments such as "iron my shirt," in terms of media bias, etc.).  Please read, if you haven't already, the column at www.womensmediacenter.com/.../020108.html.  

Full disclosure: I'm neither black nor a woman.  But when I read your post, and the column on the women's media center link I just pasted, I shrink from trying to resolve the dispute on those terms (i.e., the relevant injustices experienced by blacks and women).  It seems to me, therefore, that we need to keep this focused, as much as possible, on "who would win in the Fall" and/or "who would be the better president?"  

In a fair and open debate about who would be the best president, I think Obama can win.  I also think Hillary can win.  Maybe even McCain can win.  But that should be the debate.  

May 1, 2008 3:18 PM

bmalin said:

roidubouloi,

I agree that the attitude that Hillary is entitled to the nomination is what got her in trouble.  It's my percetion of what her supporters would feel, myself being an Obama supporter.

I also agree that I don't care what the fallout will be.  To quote Henry Clay, "I'd rather be right than President."  I'm personally tired of new comers, mavericks, call them what you will being supplanted by the "old guard" of the party.  It happen with Mondale in 1984, Dukakis in 1988 (although Gary Hart shot himself in the foot) and Kerry in 2004.

May 1, 2008 3:38 PM

GSpinks said:

Irony! I'm glad you brought this up :). This, unfortunately, is where I would normally expose my particular demographic, but that won't help because the problem is about secular vs. religious-left, and in order to bring the point across I need to keep secular.

Wright's point is actually to preach the Gospel. The problem lies in the MSM attempt to drag his preachings into the secular realm and hold a trial. it was started by Faux News in their attempt to discredit Obama's candidacy early on, and ended up catching fire. The fire started with other networks coverage of Faux News' coverage, and spread like wildfire from there.

Simply put, America should never have been exposed to what Reverend Wright is saying because this is equivalent to talking about Differential Equations while discussing Fuel Efficiency standards. Differential Equations may or may not help formulate predictability models for how efficient a new engine might be, but Main Stream America can't handle much more than EPA estimates.

Wright is not saying anything "stereotypical", he is preaching about various aspects of social justice; he is preaching about things which have been said for decades upon decades by whites and blacks. This is nothing new, but it belongs on the pulpit because he is "preaching". Wright is (justifiably) upset because his "sermons" are being dragged from the pulpit to the town square, and then being put on display for discussion by a secular media that has never seen this kind of thing.

The damage is actually media driven; if the media outlets want Obama off the campaign trail they just need to keep stoking this fire. The more effort the Press puts into "reporting" and "analyzing" the religious sermons of Jeremiah Wright (without incorporating individuals like Fr Phleger and Bill Moyers), the more damage this is going to do to Obama in terms of WASP voters, religious right, and the (white) non-religious seculars (the actual demographics where Obama is taking his polling losses). Black non-religious seculars won't be as affected, if at all, because of a natural familiarity that derives from a long history between blacks in America and the Gospel of social justice.

The "cure" to all of this is to incorporate more Moyers and Phlegers, to help provide the correct perspective to MSA, and to do it seperately from Obama's campaign. Yet again, this will have to be MSM driven; the same networks airing this footage need to incorporate the antidote with at least the same levels of exposure.

Obama's fate depends entirely on the MSM at this point; which is not good considering Faux News is die-hard republicans, CNN stands for Clinton News Network, and most other networks' executives puke at the thought of hosting people like Bill Moyers or Fr Phleger for extended segments.

May 1, 2008 4:39 PM

davidlheber said:

Ha! Ha! Ha!

May 1, 2008 4:46 PM

ironyroad said:

GSpinks -- I don't want you to expose your demographic if you think that might be inappropriate in company, but I have to reject your assertion that the issue here is a secular vs. religious rhetoric conflict.  While it is true that prophetic imagery and a threat of divine punishment and the like are part of the tradition  of evangelical Christian preaching, racially "defined" brain structures, Farrakhan's qualities, impressions of former presidents, AIDS conspiracies, and the like are not.  Wright could have done Obama the favor of not bringing his dog-and-pony show to town right this minute, but he decided against that.

Indeed, even if one might stretch a point and say that putting your sermons "greatest hits"-style on DVDs is ok, even if it tends to blur the church/public divide, the very fact that you have experience with various media environments might give you reason to hesitate before making a delicate situation worse for someone you claim to support.  Either Wright didn't know what effect revisiting the whole "god damn America" shtick would have, in which case he's a fool (and I don't think he is), or he didn't care.  If he didn't care, then I think my previous analysis is more accurate than yours.

And while we're on the subject of the MSM and related institutions:  may I remind you that nobody FORCED Wright to speak to national media in front of the Press Club, or at the NAACP?  Neither did anyone force him to do it the way he did it.  He chose both the event and the style, and I assume that his choices were not subject to pressure.  It was all his own decision.  To that extent, your point, while technically of interest, avoids completely the fact that Wright is a willing participant in an effort to take down Obama.

May 1, 2008 5:46 PM

GSpinks said:

DMelhorn: you almost have a point...nothing like a nice, biased, op-ed piece to argue in favor of your candidate...you should have read up yourself though...

Fundraising was allowed, so Obama was fine there.

From the news article "declaring" Obama held a "_impromptu_ press conference":

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

OMG, how thin do you want to stretch this? This is not even close to the common-sense understanding of "holding news conferences" (which is never specifically defined, and therefore common-sense should prevail); they gathered outside of _his_ fundraiser without his invitation, and he was nice enough to answer some questions being yelled across the street by reporters. He crossed the street so he wouldn't have to yell back...Oh, that Obama is such a rule breaker!!!

And you still haven't explained what Hillary was doing greeting Florida voters BEFORE the polls closed; "making public appearances" is explicitly forbidden, so why was Hillary greeting voters again? And before you say anything, a private fundraiser is not a public appearance.

But back to being a rules wonk:

Nothing in these rules shall prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing sanctions the Committee deems appropriate with respect to a state which the Committee determines has failed or refused to comply with these rules, where the failure or refusal of the state party is not subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of this section C. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: reduction of the state’s delegation; pursuant to Rule 21.C., recommending the establishment of a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state’s division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of the state’s temporary and permanent members to the Standing Committees; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of guests, VIP and other passes/tickets to the National Convention and related functions; assignment of location of the state’s delegates and alternates in the Convention hall; and assignment of the state’s housing and other convention related facilities. [chapter 20, section C, subsection 6.]

Sanctions Imposed; Case Closed! :P Nobody gets anything; Hillary's opion doesn't mean spit.

The only real issue is "how to reseat the FL and MI delegations?", since the bylaws do provide that the delegation can get seated using some other metric to determine proportionment (probably because the turnout was SKEWED because the voters were told it didn't count and people went to the other primary or stayed home)?

Do you want to try again?

May 1, 2008 6:03 PM

GSpinks said:

Irony, I am so happy to have an intelligent conversation on this stuff! *happy dance*

All of the things you mentioned _ARE_ fair game for the pulpit if there is an analogy or lesson that incorporates well with one's sermon, *that* is the nature of "social justice"; its not "biblical justice" (justice to be practiced during Mass or bible study sessions) or "occult justice" (justice to be practiced out of sight of the public), it involves integrating diferent aspects of society with its teachings, and vice versa. Think of it like "Practical Christianity". It necessarily involves analyzing society through the lens of the bible, as well as coming to understand the lessons of the Bible through the lens of modern day America. This is where hermeneutics comes into play, and why you can't throw 3 second sound bites infront of MSA.

Your issue about exposure to media is a little disingenious because Christians have been recording and even broadcasting (EWTN) their material for decades. No one has ever bothered to "drag them into the town square".

As for conspiracies, the "facts" of the Tuskeegee Experiments adds a distinct level of plausibility to the HIV theory. Its not a conspiricy if they are out to get you; they did it before and leaves open the possibility that they'll do it again. I personally doubt it, but you *have* to admit its happened before (Tuskeegee) and that means it could happen again.

Finally, Wright was a participant, sure; but his participation was a lot more antagonistic towards MSM and less towards Obama than everyone seems to believe. Beyond being antagonistic towards the MSM (and bombastic, for sure), what did he actually say that was bad? I thought he did a pretty good job of putting some of his detractors in their place. Judging by some of the applause, I think a lot of the people in the crowd did too.

do you have any particular statements you'd like to discuss?

May 1, 2008 8:11 PM

buffaloboy said:

virginiacentrist said:

here's what the Clintons will unleash if they take the nomination in an "unfair" manner;

www.dailykos.com/.../506340

$11k in a few hours for a Democratic Congressman that most folks have never heard of...just because a few people called his office and made racist remarks....

Seriously?  Obama supporters are now trying to buy support outright?  Man, that's pathetic.

May 1, 2008 10:17 PM

ironyroad said:

The applause, I'm afraid, was completely racist in its own way:  the white audience cheering for the black guy on the stage who's making a fool of himself but doesn't know the damage he's doing.  Nobody forced Wright to do the NAACP, nobody forced Wright to do the Press Club, nobody forced him to do anything except realize that he might really really not want to torpedo the campaign of the first African American to get a real shot at the presidency.

I think you devote a lot of paragraphs, GSpinks, to avoiding my main point, so let me say it again:

It doesn't matter what's fair game for the pulpit, or not.

It doesn't matter what other "Christians" have done or still do.

It doesn't matter whether the Tuskegee history makes the AIDS conspiracy more explicable, or not.

What matters is that either Wright (a) didn't know what effect revisiting the whole "god damn America" shtick would have, in which case he's a fool (and I don't think he is), or (b) he didn't care.  If he didn't care, then I think my previous analysis is more accurate than yours:  that he was going to try to drag Obama back to where he belonged and administer the whippersnapper a lesson he'd remember.

Statements I'd care to discuss:  Hm, how about "black" brains and "white" brains?  How about dumb-ass vaudeville impressions of Kennedy and Johnson?  How about the fact that, in the United States, it would be impossible to keep any of these AIDS/9-11/Obama-as-secret-Muslim conspiracies secret?

But you're just jiving with me, right, GS?  You know that my argument isn't about statements, don't you? -- it's about motive.  Wright wasn't "dragged to the public square" -- he took a chauffer-driven liimo there.

May 1, 2008 10:40 PM

GSpinks said:

Irony: I do understand your argument, we're on the same frequency here.

I would like to point out, for the record, that the limo service was provided by Faux news and Bill O was the driver. I remember it distinctly because I went flying to YouTube to find out the real deal on the "clip" before I stopped supporting Obama. I was "  " that close to jumping ship, but after I realized what was what, I kind of soured on Faux pretty bad...

I really don't see what the big deal was, but I think you hit the nail on the head: "making a fool of himself", its all about what people perceived, not what actually happened. I saw some brilliant retorts, comebacks, and explanations to some "serious" questions regarding his Patriotism, Faith and Gospel. The media only saw him making a fool of himself.

I am pretty Wright was honestly and sincerely trying to put himself out there for the media to help clarify issues, and take shots at his detractors, the same as he did with Moyers, only he was grandstanding for his audience to boot. I don't think he ever expected the reaction he got. Yes, that makes him a fool from one perspective, but then again, like he said during his interview with Moyers, he is a Pastor, and Obama is a Politician.

Damn, this is where we start going around in circles because I have to bring up hermeneutics, and Faux news dragging him out into town square, and you point out he was actin' the fool...

gax-tax gas-tax gas-tax gas-tax gas-tax

May 2, 2008 2:14 AM

GSpinks said:

oh, as for those statemets, I'm not familiar with most of that stuff, do you have a source I can review?

As for the conspiracy stuff, I guess it depends on the quality of American Society; has our society progressed sufficiently since the Tuskeegee Experiments that we rightly no longer need to fear secret government medical experiments or other such "nonsense"?

I'd like to think so, hence my doubt regarding the HIV thing, but if I start watching Bush too much I start having doubts.

May 2, 2008 2:28 AM

ironyroad said:

I think we just disagree on the basics, GS.  You see a lapse of judgment on Wright's part, and media exploitation.  I see malice aforethought.

Btw one should say too, on a different note, that the name "Tuskegee" conjures up other things than just the medical scandal -- the astonishing success of Booker T. Washington with his college in the Jim Crow South, for example, and the black flyers in WW2.

May 2, 2008 1:13 PM

ironyroad said:

Oh and GSpinks -- don't be disingenuous, please.  If you want "sources" you can just google "jeremiah wright" and "brains" and you'll get the YouTube clip from the NAACP talk.  The Press Club talk is there too, I've no doubt.

May 2, 2008 1:33 PM

GSpinks said:

sorry, not trying to be disingenious, I actually had not heard about the brains thing... I'll go hunt it down now.

May 2, 2008 7:12 PM

ironyroad said:

OK -- sorry, I didn't mean to be snarky, but it's been discussed all over the place (including on threads here on TNR) and people are naturally wondering why a biological-race theory of brains is ok when expounded by a black minister but would be racist demagoguery if a white minister said the same thing.

It's nonsense anyway, and begs the question as to where biracial kids come down.  You know, brainside-wise.

May 2, 2008 11:57 PM

GSpinks said:

s'okay. I'd seen people mention it, but never enough information for me to figure out what was going on or where it came from.

I found the naacp speech; "jeremiah wright" "naacp" worked better, got a bunch of personal videos when I added "brains".

As for the left- and right-brained thing, he was just trying to make the point that people used to think that kids who learned differently were deficient, but science helped to show that they just learn differently.I didn't get the impression he was trying to pass off that left/right black/white business as legitimate "up-to-date" scientific knowledge; I think the consternation comes from using an out-dated piece of research. I'm not very knowledgeable in that field, and I've never heard of that particular research study, so that is about as far as I can go with it.

As for media exploitation, i think this one falls under media ignorance because this was no "Gettysburg Address", it was just a brief speech on the topic of Change, the theme the NAACP was using; it was meant to be part informative, part inspiration and get the attendees into the spirit of the conference; nothing more (except for taking some jabs at people, but that "ain't no thang" either).

My personal take on this whole thing is the fact that any of the media outlets went beyond that reinforces my suspicions regarding their ignorance and/or need to try to exploit Wright to further their own opinions of themselves. The correct answer was "thats nice. Now, let's move on to the price of tea in China." I think they exposed themselves trying to analyze what amounted to white-noise, and ended up making a lot of "white-noise" of their own.

May 3, 2008 2:00 PM

ironyroad said:

"I didn't get the impression he was trying to pass off that left/right black/white business as legitimate "up-to-date" scientific knowledge"

GS:  I did, I'm afraid.  And curiously, Obama's own cool and collected demeanor, and obvious intellectual qualities, seems to give the lie to the whole thing.

May 3, 2008 3:10 PM

GSpinks said:

The scientific basis for racial associations with learning patterns has been debunked for a long time, as I recall.

As for pulling the wrong impression, that is why America needs to have a dialog about it. Unfortunately, that dialog is poorly served by the MSM, but they seem to be taking extra steps to start the dialog. Some may be sincere, but some obviously are not.

May 3, 2008 3:21 PM

The Plank said:

I have to admit that I was skeptical when Noam suggested last week that black voters might be more down

May 5, 2008 10:26 AM

The Stump said:

A couple of random thoughts heading into the May 6 primaries: 1.) There are four polls out today that

May 5, 2008 6:32 PM