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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
17.04.2008
Quickie Debate Thoughts

Like almost everyone else (I assume) who saw the debate, I thought Obama was flat and off-balance for most of the night. His answers were usually correct if lacking in conviction the first time through. But he frequently made the mistake of doubling back and undercutting himself--the kind of thing people do when they're exhausted.

On the dubious capital gains tax question, for example, Obama's first impulse was basically sound--he suggested that, if a lot of rich hedge fund managers are going to re-classify income as capital gains to exploit the lower tax rate, then, as a matter of fairness, it makes sense to raise that rate a bit. (Simply prohibiting the re-classification would be a more precise way to serve the same ideal, but let's not quibble...) The problem was that Obama got tangled up on unrelated issues like the mortgage crisis as he kept talking--and as Charlie Gibson kept insisting (incorrectly) that cutting capitals gains taxes raises revenue. He should have quit while he was ahead.

By contrast, Clinton was generally on her game. She seemed energetic and answered authoritatively if a little glibly at times. (Obama was right to point out, for example, that she's trying to have it both ways by accusing him of raising taxes to shore up Social Security, while at the same time suggesting she'd have a 1983-style commission study the problem--the kind of group that's very likely to recommend his proposed lifting of the payroll tax cap.)

But, obviously, the real story of the night was the crazy gauntlet of questioning ABC put Obama through. The first half of the debate felt like a 45-minute negative ad, reprising the most chewed over anti-Obama allegations (bittergate, Jeremiah Wright, patriotism) and even some relatively obscure ones (his vague association with former Weatherman radical Bill Ayers).

My immediate reaction is that there's a huge double-standard at work here, but not the one you'd think. That is, it's not that Hillary didn't get her fair share of tough questions tonight (she didn't, but there have been plenty of debates where she's been ambushed and Obama's gotten off easy). It's that, when Hillary gets mauled by moderators and opponents, voters generally feel sympathetic to her. Most people--even the skeptics--feel like they know her, and we don't like seeing people we know treated unfairly. But when Obama gets ambushed, I think the effect is more damaging. He doesn't have the same longstanding relationship with voters. And when you hear unremittingly negative things about someone before you've fully formed an opinion, it tends to affect how you see them.

Having said that, what kept this from being a disastrous night for Obama is that Hillary couldn't leave well enough alone. She looked classless in slapping Obama over Ayers after the moderators had kicked him in the teeth for 30 minutes. And Obama shrewdly underscored this impression with his gracious refusal to pile on over her Bosnia-embellishment flap.

So, all in all, a huge missed opportunity for Hillary. I think she'll gain marginally if at all. She may have lost as many people as Obama did from all the incoming he took.

--Noam Scheiber

Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 12:27 AM with 52 comment(s)

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peter1943 said:

If Obama had ripped off his face showing that he was an evil robot and then tried to eat all the children in attendance Noam would still be saying "huge missed opportunity for Hillary."

April 17, 2008 1:02 AM

billy_budd said:

Even with Obama's pathetic performance, I can't imagine that any truly undecided voter in PA would (or could) be swayed to vote for Hillary. In fact, I think it might end up being a net positive for Obama. The debate, in all its wretched pettiness, vividly illustrated what he has campaigned against for the past 15 months. If voters in PA wake up to this realization, then I think they will respond in kind at the polls next Tuesday. If not, then we can look forward to more mind-numbing spectacles like we witnessed tonight.  

April 17, 2008 1:11 AM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

Hi Noam,

I have to respectfully disagree with you.  It seems to me that this will become a debate about the debate (and especially the moderators) and I think Obama's very human frustration and pushing back on the media for manufacturing b*%@$hit stories reflects a lot of the frustration that voters, particularly undecided ones, are feeling.  As such, if they had the stomach to keep watching, they probably found themselves relating to Obama and feeling like the moderators (and to some extent Hillary) are just out of touch with what the voters really want to hear.

Most undecided Pennsylvanians are tired of the bickering and the gotcha inanities.  They really do sense that "hey, this isn't helping me put food on my table."  While the issues raised were certainly fair game, it just wasn't a good use of the voters very limited attention FOR THE ONE DEBATE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO HELP THEM MAKE UP THERE MINDS.  

I think most undecided Pennsylvanians (and for that matter undecided voters in general) feel mildly resentful towards the media's inability to present pertinant information in a way that helps them make up their minds and their heart.  Even Hillary seemed sick of it (even though she didn't let that stop her from joining in the fray).

All of this only helps Barack Obama, much more than a "new set of talking points" on Reverend Wright or revisiting the bitter-litter in a chipper smiley voice with a few jokes or stories about how his grandpa taught him to shoot.  His performance, precisely because of it's pained endurance, called BS on the media and it's high time someone did.

I am certain that ABC will lose the debate about the debate... but of course the real losers are Pennsylvania voters who are once again deprived of the opportunity to get to know their candidates in a meaningful way.  Believe me, most of them didn't stick around for the last half hour of actual issue-oriented discussion.

I wish they'd have Bill Moyers host one of these on PBS - now that would be a debate to remember!

April 17, 2008 1:35 AM

dcshungu said:

Scheiber sez:

"My immediate reaction is that there's a huge double-standard at work here, but not the one you'd think. That is, it's not that Hillary didn't get her fair share of tough questions tonight (she didn't, but there have been plenty of debates where she's been ambushed and Obama's gotten off easy). It's that, when Hillary gets mauled by moderators and opponents, voters generally feel sympathetic to her. Most people--even the skeptics--feel like they know her, and we don't like seeing people we know treated unfairly. But when Obama gets ambushed, I think the effect is more damaging. He doesn't have the same longstanding relationship with voters. And when you hear unremittingly negative things about someone before you've fully formed an opinion, it tends to affect how you see them."

To the extent that Obama has been "ambushed' at all, that must be the most ridiculous statement of this election. Double-standard at work and against Obama, who is on the brink of being the nominee simply because TNR, Scheiber and the amen crowd gave him a free pass, cried foul or racism whenever he was scrutinized, and constantly told us that he could walk on water?  

Please return to drinking the kool-aid. Your excursion into psychoanalysis was disastrous psychobabble...

April 17, 2008 2:13 AM

chrismealy said:

Shouldn't the Democratic debate have, you know, questions that Democrats care about? And not lines from Sean Hannity?

April 17, 2008 2:15 AM

markbenl said:

I agree that Obama's debate performance was his worst yet, at least among those between only him and Clinton.   However a good, but likely disproportional picture of the collective reaction can be found at ABC's site.  There was a lot of predictable chatter.  Most responses came from angered Obama supporters.  Many of them claimed they would boycott ABC news after tonight.  Fewer came from giddy Republicans and Clinton boosters happy to see Obama pummeled even if he was pummeled over trivial points.  

However, the most interesting comments came from people who claim to be independent or previously undecided voters.  They wrote about their annoyance that few important questions were asked and felt bothered that the moderators spent so much time asking gotcha questions.  These commenters also overwhelmingly wrote of their newfound support for Obama.  This is the sort of "politics as usual" that Obama's campaign has spent so much effort opposing and its why skepticism over the debate will work to his advantage.

If Clinton had openly criticized Steph and Gibs's moderating style she could have looked somewhat heroic. Instead, she just piled on.

Also, that noisy autoplay "Desperate Housewives" ad on ABC's homepage is not making me feel any more love for the network.

April 17, 2008 2:33 AM

maxblum13 said:

who cares?  Obama already won the primary.

April 17, 2008 2:51 AM

maxblum13 said:

*nomination

April 17, 2008 2:52 AM

nturner said:

Markben1,

There is, of course, a selection bias that affects the results of any online opinion measurement such as the one on the ABC site.  It probably also explains the TNR Kool-aid blogs...

First, only computer-literate types follow politics online.

Second, those people tend to be overwhelmingly young and therefore prone to support the American Idol candidate.

Third, DailyKos and the nutjob set are actively orchestrating bitch/complain/moan/cry-fests against ABC. They want all their cultists to call, email, and comment on the supposed "hatchet" job that transpired against the Messiah.  Puh-leeze...

Obama is such a little milquetoast! I can't take it anymore... I mean, we're going to be destroyed if we nominate B.O.  Forget condescension or elitism...  What hard working, middle-class Americans hate the most is a, well, I can't use the word...

April 17, 2008 4:55 AM

lubetkin said:

nturner, you're wrong. What hard-working, middle-class Americans hate most is bigots like you. That kind of poisonous aspersion disgusts decent people everywhere. Please keep thoughts like that to yourself.

April 17, 2008 5:57 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

nturner - you're an ignorant bigot.  

April 17, 2008 7:27 AM

lymon1 said:

Quick Points:

Obama only needs to tread water and get to the general election.  He did that and nothing here is going to be remembered (other than how bad ABC was).

Obama's pledge to *cut* taxes for everyone under $200,000 is bad -- almost as bad as McCain's proposal to suspend the gas tax.  The only way to budget sanity is to reverse the Bush tax cuts, not just on "the rich" and the line should be drawn no higher than $125,000, if not $100,000.

People, Bill Ayers sucks -- a far more offensive a figure than Reverend Wright.  I read weird stuff on right wing sites that Obama had his kids babysat by Ayers wife (also an unrepentant former terrorist), that Michelle Obama put Ayers on some panel, etc, and I just say to myself "consider the source" but I don't find it THAT unfair to inquire about -- they sure would about Hillary Clinton.  If they had confined all the non-issue stuff to 20 minutes few would have complained.  

April 17, 2008 7:32 AM

nturner said:

Lubetkin,

What the hell are you trying to suggest?!

Why don't you look up the definition of "milquetoast," you moron!  In discussing Obama, I was trying to come up with another synonym for the "kind of person who is bitches and moans when he should take it like a man and conduct an honest debate."  I opted not to use the word "pussy" because I didn't want to be profane or even remotely sexist in my diction; however, I'll take my chances if the alternative is slanderous critiques by hot, steaming piles of shit like you.

You're either dumb as a stack of bricks or you're a race-baiting lair.  Either way, fuck you.

April 17, 2008 7:41 AM

fougasseu said:

The tossing of the Ayers hand grenade will go down as the most despicable campaign tactic since the attack on Max Cleland. She managed to mention Farakhan as well. Very dispiriting to see someone who worked on the defense of two Black Panthers in her youth and claims to be an icon of progressive politics use the tactics of Karl Rove.

And I firmly believe she knew the question from Stephanopoulos was coming. She instantly had her answer ready - the Woods Foundatiion, etc. - it w as canned. Stephanopoulos worked in the Clinton inner circle. He went after Obama hammer and tong, sounding more like a Talk Radio host than a journalist.

Afterwards, I felt more sad than angry - this country doesn't have a chance for real change until the Boomers leave the scene.

Andrew Sullivan has it right - strip it all away and it's a generational conflict. You saw it last night. She played to the Boomers, the questioners were Boomers, it's all about them.  

April 17, 2008 7:50 AM

roidubouloi said:

I don't recall hearing Obama bitching and moaning.  

Most of the whining, bitching, moaning, peeing, and generally addled blather that I have heard for much of the recent past comes from nturner.

You're right nturner.  You can't say it.  But we all KNOW what you're thinking.  

April 17, 2008 7:58 AM

roidubouloi said:

I quite agree, with no irony or sarcasm intended, that the world would be a better place if we of the boomer generation summarily dropped dead.  We have become a millstone around the neck of the world and will not let go.

I have every confidence, however, that Obama is going to prevail, both for the nomination -- suck it up nturner, you're screwed -- and in the general election.

April 17, 2008 8:00 AM

titanio said:

This debate will have no effect on west-coast voting. I don't know anyone in California who even saw it, because it came on in the afternoon when we are all at work.

April 17, 2008 8:16 AM

nturner said:

It came on at 8 pm PST... ABC rebroadcast it 3 hours later...  It wasn't on at 5.

April 17, 2008 8:33 AM

pccostello said:

Noam--

Obama has not been exposed to tough questioning before. So, it was news, and his reactions were something voters have not had a chance to see before. Hillary got so much hostility from the media so consistently and for so long that it elicited both sympathy and satire (SNL). That is what the real news out of last night's debate--that Obama got asked difficult questions and didn't handle it well.

April 17, 2008 8:34 AM

dbhuff said:

Not the best night for Obama, but no real damage done either.  Don't think this moves the needle much for either of them.  In fact, it seems to me that every time HRC piled on in the first part of the debate, she looked down and to the right, as if she was saying something she didn't really believe? But later on in policy questions, looked straight ahead? Since the moderators were to her right, no reason there.

I think it may have done Obama some good to have Fox News, er, Stephanopolous and Gibson, moderating with the crap questions. Obama needs to keep going through this until people get bored with them...even though he clearly doesn't want to.

April 17, 2008 8:36 AM

ironyroad said:

nturner:  "You're either dumb as a stack of bricks or you're a race-baiting lair."

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

April 17, 2008 10:00 AM

purcellneil said:

I have come to despise Hillary for her shameless, dishonest and intelligence-insulting campaign of recent weeks - totally negative and completely without merit.

April 17, 2008 10:10 AM

tmccarthy0 said:

Don't you think Mr. Scheiber, Senator Obama was knocked off his game because of the first 52 minutes of an attack of propaganda directed at the Senator? I mean three on one? You kidding me? I can hardly believe a news organization would ever take a suggestion from a Sean Hannity, is this some sort of joke? Maybe they are secretly on Senator Obama's side because most people were repulsed by what happened last night, and we have not even begun to see how this back fires on the Journalists, and I do use that term very loosely, who participated in this sham. So Mr. Scheiber, Senator Obama was deliberately knocked off his game by the 52 minute attack on him, not on his policies or issues but on Republican talking points. Trust me, most people see right through the game now.

April 17, 2008 10:17 AM

BHLnyc said:

No questions on terrorism or torture? No questions on health care or the environment? No questions on Iran or North Korea or loose nukes? We get flag pins, Ayers, Wright and "bittergate"? If ABC thought that this is what is consuming Americans (other than pccostello, of course), they're completely tone deaf.

Based on the backlash against the questioning that's been pretty widespread across newspapers and in the blogosphere this morning, I do believe that it's possible that Obama could actually realize a slight gain. It's been an oddity of this campaign that whenever either of the Democrats has been under siege, they've immediately enjoyed a bit of a sympathy backlash from voters. This may be another one.

April 17, 2008 10:31 AM

blackton said:

dschungu, the reason Obama is on the brink of being the nominee is simply because more voters voted for him.

I didn't watch the debate because I knew it would be a bore fest, like that recent "Compassion" gabfest.

All of you Hillary supporters have to deal with the fact she won't be the nominee. Sticking pins in your Obama doll won't work. Now you have to decide if you are going to support Obama, McCain, or sit this one out.

Oddly enough, since I don't live in the US I have benefited greatly by Bush's destroying the dollar. I am confident that McCain will continue that process so if I vote my own financial interests McCain is my guy. I think Hillary would be the greatest disaster, which would represent a bonanza for me, but sadly (at least financially) she won't be the nominee. Obama though, if he restored international faith in America, would bolster the dollar, so he is problematic for me, but I will take my chances. I can't just be interested in myself only.

April 17, 2008 10:50 AM

jobeek2 said:

dcshungu  said: "Obama, who is on the brink of being the nominee simply because TNR, Scheiber and the amen crowd gave him a free pass"

Wow, who knew how powerful TNR, and Noam Scheiber personally, were? That's quite the compliment, Noam. Either that, or dcshungu  has lost all sense of perspective...

April 17, 2008 10:54 AM

bl462 said:

While it's understandable that Obama's many apologists, excusers, and spinners are upset about the questions he was asked last night, to understand is not to condone.  Questions about his association with Rev. Wright, and Wiliam Ayers are legitimate -  if you're running for President, why shouldn't you be asked about and judged by the company you keep?  His answers were appalling.

Ditto on his response to questions about his sliming of small-town Pennsylvanians.

"And so the point I was making was that when people feel like Washington's not listening to them, when they're promised year after year, decade after decade, that their economic situation is going to change, and it doesn't, then politically they end up focusing on those things that are constant, like religion.

They end up feeling "This is a place where I can find some refugee. This is something that I can count on." They end up being much more concerned about votes around things like guns, where traditions have been passed on from generation to generation. And those are incredibly important to them."

Uh, sure... and by that twisted logic when Washington isn't listening, they presumably also focus on and find refuge in and count on anti-immigrant and anti-trade sentiments.  So as soon as Washington starts listening, all that alleged nastiness will disappear.  What fatuous, condescending blather.

April 17, 2008 11:09 AM

The Ignorant Populist said:

".I have nothing but the embittered sun;

Banished heroic mother moon and vanished,

And now that I have come to 21 debates

I must endure the timid sun."

I'd say he is exhausted.

21 debates and every movement, glance, word, handshake, visit and friendship examined every second of every day for how long? Jesus, I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

It's too much for one man or Hillary to bear; it's cruel and unusual punishment.

April 17, 2008 11:17 AM

ironyroad said:

If there's a candidate out there who's less about "sliming" ordinary Americans than Obama, I haven't seen him/her.  Perhaps Huckabee did about as well.

April 17, 2008 11:25 AM

tomeg said:

deshungu gives up:

"Double-standard at work and against Obama, who is on the brink of being the nominee simply because TNR, Scheiber and the amen crowd gave him a free pass, cried foul or racism whenever he was scrutinized, and constantly told us that he could walk on water? "

Huh??

Noam, I hope you and the rest of Team TNR get big fat raises and a payoff from the Obama campaign for your pivotal role in electing him.

April 17, 2008 11:28 AM

johnbr55a said:

The most dishonest aspect, even more dishonest than Hillary, is the media argument that by calling Obama and terrorist anti-American they are simply seeing he can take a hit. Was McCarthy testing Dean Acheson' s mettle?

I'm a white Southerner who knows racial politics when he sees it. I didn't vote for Helms and won't vote for Hillary.

April 17, 2008 11:41 AM

roidubouloi said:

Obama is going to get the nomination because he is a gifted politician who is able to move large numbers of people to support him, to donate to his campaign, and to vote for him.  More than Hillary.

He also has the good fortune to be running against Hillary Clinton who is a singularly incompetent politician with no competitive electoral experience, virtually no political accomplishments (although some very notable failures), and no political talent -- a wonk who should be someone's chief of staff or a cabinet secretary on a good day.  Forget about whether her "experience" makes her "qualified" to be president.  She obtained her present position by being married to Bill Clinton.  But for that relationship, it is highly unlikely that this woman, or any person of such brittle charm, would ever have had a political career at all.  However, even if one assumes that somewhere inside of Hillary there exists some of the necessary talent for a political career, her undoing is the fact that she rose to this political height without ever having had to work her way up in any important respect.

Politics is a craft.  There is a lot to know about how to conduct yourself and a campaign that is only learned by doing, like any other craft.  Hillary never learned it because she never had to do it --courtesy of Bill Clinton and Charlie Rangel.  Thus, when she arrived on the big stage, she had NONE of the experience that really counts and she blew it.  This is Hillary's very first competitive election.  It shows.

April 17, 2008 11:53 AM

ctrogers said:

But then, it always amazes me how the general public can't pick up on the substance, and the Clinton campaign actually has to attack on the issues relating who Obama really is.  But then again, who he really is might be a little substantive.

April 17, 2008 12:54 PM

johnbr55a said:

Here's a great poll question.

Which tape do you find most disgusting? The on of the cheerleader beating, or the three-way mugging of Obama on ABC?

April 17, 2008 1:05 PM

dcshungu said:

blackton  said:

"dschungu, the reason Obama is on the brink of being the nominee is simply because more voters voted for him."

jobeek2  said:

"dcshungu  said: "Obama, who is on the brink of being the nominee simply because TNR, Scheiber and the amen crowd gave him a free pass""

Don't tell me you're that naive! Hillary was absolutely skewered by TNR (after IA: "Hillary=toast") and Hardball et al. so relentlessly that  for anyone to think that did not have anything to do with the rise of Obama is just silly. Gore was made into a Pinocchio, a serial fabricator, by the press and we wound up with the Village Idiot as POTUS,  the guy they had touted as someone you would feel comfortable having a beer with, as opposed to the "stiff" Gore...yeah, right. Look at who wound up with the Nobel Prize, and who is about to return to Texas as the Worst.POTUS.Ever.

Trust the press at your own peril! They sank Hillary, they'll sink Obama with the stroke of a pen or is that a keystroke...?

April 17, 2008 1:38 PM

roidubouloi said:

Well, have it your way dcshungu.  The voters don't have opinions, only the press matters.  In that case, Hillary, by failing to win the press, lost the nomination.  Obama, by winning the press, won the nomination.  We will have to wait and see who is more successful at winning the press in the general election, Obama or McCain.  Either way, when it comes to politics, Hillary is a loser because she doesn't know how to play the game in the real world (makes her a lot like Bush in many ways, only his tenuous grasp on reality only manifested itself once he was already in the White House, thanks to Antonin Scalia).

April 17, 2008 1:54 PM

blackton said:

jesus dschungu, what is it like to think that you are the only smart person around, that only you can see the truth? I hated Hillary long before the media started to hate her, I started hating her during her reelection campaign in 2006 when she pissed away 36 million dollars for a non-serious campaign, living life like a princess.

You make no sense, you say the media will destroy Obama like they destroyed Hillary, therefore vote for Hillary??? And did you read what I said? I am confident that McCain will continue that process of devaluing the dollar so if I vote my own financial interests McCain is my guy. Bush, by his craven attitude toward the chinese, has helped me immensely since years ago I bought real estate in China (where it is booming). Your whining is meaningless to me.

But please, do me a personal favor and vote for McCain in November. When the yuan is at 5 to the dollar I can sell my house in China and retire. If Obama is elected (which will bolster the dollar), well than my retirement will have to be postponed, so if you want to hurt me, vote for Obama.

April 17, 2008 2:29 PM

blackton said:

roi, yyeah dschungu is a little unhinged now. no mention from him about if how Bill had kept it in his pants, Gore would have won (more), and nothing about Nader, or the botched ballot in Florida, nor anything about how Gore had uneven debates, no, it is all the presses fault. Simple minds seek simple answers.

April 17, 2008 2:35 PM

raaron said:

I hope people are still reading after the flame war above...

If there was ever a demonstration of the desperate need to change the nature of politics in this country, last night's debate was it.  Yes, Obama was off his game.  Yes, Hillary was her predictably nasty and knowledgeable self.  But like Sky Masterson observed, "Who are you picking, a guy or a horse?"  

Racetrack elements aside, the debate environment provided by ABC was everything I have come to loathe in what passes for public discourse today: the targeting of red herrings (flag lapel pin), the endless repetition (Tuzla and Jeremiah Wright), and the irrelevant distractions (the Weather Underground, for chrissake -- where did THAT come from).  There is a disturbingly long list of issues that weren't discussed in this debate.  And Charlie Gibson asked a question incorporating part of the Constitution that was repealed long ago -- this is the best they can do?

I'm actually missing the League of Women Voters.  A little old-fashioned high-mindedness would be a very good thing right now.

April 17, 2008 3:04 PM

dcshungu said:

Short Blackton:

"You make no sense, you say the media will destroy Obama like they destroyed Hillary, therefore vote for Hillary???"

I never advanced that mindlessness anywhere. You, on the other hand, have tried to make the case for the flip side of it: The press likes Obama so we should nominate him. I just wish for the press to avoid playing "king makers." That is all. Image Obama getting what he got last night over and over again. He looked terrible, like a deer caught in car lights. In the long run, stuff like that  sways public opinion. He is lucky the media's caustic lens has just now been turned on him, near the end.

That is my thesis. Enything else that you ascribe to me is just "projection" on your part...

April 17, 2008 3:48 PM

butchie b said:

roi, while it is true that the Lioness of Tuzla has never run a tough race, couldn't the same be said of the Young Master?  Alan Keyes ain't exactly FDR.  Hell he's not even from Illinois.

April 17, 2008 4:46 PM

blackton said:

dschungu, no I never said The press likes Obama so we should nominate him, I said "God forbid the Democratic candidate be the favorite of the largest delivery of free media in the world, the press." Where is it written I said we should nominate him on the basis of that. Can't you read?

McCain is getting wonderful treatment by the press too, and he is the nominee now in large part because of it. Or are you going to deny that truth? You buried yourself in your simpleminded formula. My formula (and I will make it simple so even you can understand it) is Good press is good and helpful, bad press is bad. Your wishing for an alternate reality where the press plays some kind of truly objective role is infantile. Well, wish away while Hillary loses.

What above that I wrote is wrong? You can't dispute it so you will put words in my mouth,

April 17, 2008 5:37 PM

blackton said:

hey butchie, you gotta be loving it, can't you just feel the hate? I used to think there is nothing dumber than the Bushicans, but the Hillarycrats are giving them a run for the money.

I hate to say it, but it is a hell of a lot easier to debate Republicans here at TNR.

April 17, 2008 5:43 PM

r-ennis said:

Much as I hate to admit it, I now think that Obama is a better choice than Clinton for the Democrats. Bill Clinton was never loved by the party's left wing, especially after ending unlimited welfare and promoting NAFTA. His great appeal was to middle of the road people, liberal on social issues and fiscally responsible, Democrats and Independents, so he could ein even though he was despised by republicans.

Hillary ditched that group in the primary season, hoping to veer to the center in the general. Unfortunately for her, Obama has wrapped up the left wing vote and to see her parroting left wing themes like windfall profits taxes and leaving Iraq regardless deprives her of centrist support in the primaries, let alone the general. At least Obama sounds like a sincere liberal and could attract some crossover Republican vote among the economically liberal social conservative crowd that Hillary could never attract.

April 17, 2008 5:45 PM

jkolic said:

Raaron,

Agree, we sure could use some old-fashioned high-mindedness. Sounds a lot better than the damn high school atmosphere that pervaded that ill-conceived debate last night.

I cringed not just at the questions, but at the way they were formulated. Senator Obama, do you understand how condescending your bitterness comment came off as? Oh, I only wish the man might have pointed out in exchange how condescending that ridiculous question was, in and of itself.

I really have a hard time understanding all this. The economy is in a freefall, the foreign policy as complicated and as open to debate as it ever was, and all some care for is to debate flag lapel pins and the nonexistence of sniper fire during the landing of a plane in Bosnia twelve years ago? Surely, the political discourse is hitting a new low.

April 17, 2008 7:16 PM

tomeg said:

nturner, please vet your fact checking:

"[Debate] came on at 8 pm PST... ABC rebroadcast it 3 hours later...  It wasn't on at 5.*

In Los Angeles (still on the West Coast where you left it last episode) the ABC affiliate broadcast the debate at 5 p.m. (PST) when I watched it.

Otherwise, no comment.

April 17, 2008 7:39 PM

psantillana said:

I didn't watch it because I had a migrane headache, and it seems that might have been the silver lining of my migrane headache. So all I've done is see next-day snippets and what appears to be a firehose of nationwide rage at the two moderators. And it also appears that H joined in with the moderators' first-half agenda and Obama refused to play, apparently not picking up the Tuzla slingshot placed before him, to the bafflement of Chris Matthews. I think this might come out well for Obama, despite what I'm told was a subpar 2nd half for him, since that first half made a bigger impression overall. But we'll see, I guess.

April 17, 2008 8:52 PM

matthawk said:

Bill Clinton was campaigning in my part of the state of Pennsylvania today. While he was here he said, “Hillary’s campaign has concentrated heavily…on the small towns [in Pennsylvania], the rural areas, and really small towns….” A local newspaper noted “The former president has been New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s biggest weapon in the towns between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.”

Recall that in the early 90s James Carville, a key campaign strategist for Hillary, characterized the small towns between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia is being “Alabama” in terms of their racially-charged and socially conservative politics.

This will give you some insight into the kind of campaign the Clintons are waging in Pennsylvania today and what they are pinning their hopes on.

April 17, 2008 10:11 PM

matthawk said:

Hillary Clinton and her machine are making the strategic error of thinking that their opponent in this race is a “black man.” She has been quoted as saying that when she talks with some of her friends about the campaign they say that having a black opponent is a “nice problem to have,” meaning that it is a sign of social progress that a candidate for president who happens to be African American would be a serious contender. But, then they are quick to add, as she tells it, “It still is a problem” – meaning that her friends believe Obama has been difficult to lay a glove on precisely because he is black.

Of course this is Hillary’s way of charging media favoritism on the basis of race without saying so herself, but putting the charge in the mouth of her unnamed “friends.”

But Hillary’s problem is not that she is running against a black man; her problem is that she is running against a popular man. Obama is likeable and his speeches continue to inspire. After simultaneously trying to portray him as being part of a Muslim conspiracy; a crypto-racist follower of an inflammatory Christian minister; a cultural elitist; a man of shady financial deals with Tony Rezco – in other words, after throwing the proverbial “kitchen sink” at Obama – the latest polls show him narrowing the gap against Hillary in Pennsylvania to about 5 or 6 percentage points, down from a 20 point spread about two months ago, and a 16 point spread a few weeks ago.

If Hillary continues to treat Obama like a “black” man instead of a popular man she will continue to alienate young and independent voters who realize that this election is not about who made a political gaffe during a San Francisco fundraiser; it is about whether or not their homes will face foreclosure; whether or not they will have health insurance; whether candidates have a strategy to bring manufacturing jobs back; whether or not there will be social security when young people retire 40 years from now; and whether the tragedy in Iraq will be repeated in Iran.

It is also about what effect lobbyists’ money has on the ability of the two major parties to listen to ordinary people; whether or not people inside the Washington Beltway, and on Wall Street, understand the rest of us out here on Main Street; whether or not we are going to continue to fight battles from the 60s of Vietnam, polarization based on “race” and gender, and petty partisanship in the two major parties.

Clinton’s campaign tactic of trivial pursuit runs the risk of further alienating voters due to its total and absolute irrelevance to the concerns of the voting public of today and tomorrow.

April 17, 2008 10:12 PM

hayleykelse said:

Well, if they don't know Obama after he's spent a month in Pennsylvania and probably more than $10 million there, I'm not sure they ever will.

April 18, 2008 8:24 AM

roidubouloi said:

Every dollar and minute Obama spends in PA during the primary is well-spent as this is, if not a critical state, among the several most important in November.  It's a good investment.

April 18, 2008 9:43 AM

The Stump said:

Ben Smith makes a great point here . He says Obama's had such a rough stretch lately that it'll

April 18, 2008 2:32 PM

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