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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
31.10.2007
The Dems' Debate in Philadelphia

The big question heading into tonight’s debate was how aggressively would Barack Obama and John Edwards hammer Hillary Clinton’s character, which recent internal-polling suggests is her greatest vulnerability. The answer was: very aggressively. Obama and Edwards spent much of the evening firing away at Clinton’s honesty and trustworthiness. And, yet, in a way, the debate seemed less about Obama and Edwards versus Clinton than Obama versus Edwards, with Clinton as a bystander.

That’s not to say all the incoming fire had no effect on Clinton. There was a moment early on, after Edwards ridiculed her recent Iran vote, when Clinton looked as annoyed as I’ve seen her in a debate.  “[M]any of us who voted for that resolution said that this is not anything other than an expression of support for using economic sanctions,” she said through nearly-clenched teeth. “You know, several people who were adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq, like Senator Durbin, voted the same way I did.” Late in the debate, after Clinton appeared to waver on whether to grant driver’s licenses to illegal aliens, Edwards and Obama both pounced (“Senator Clinton said two different things in course of about two minutes,” Edwards protested), at which point Clinton’s legendary poise briefly deserted her.

But, for the most part, Clinton parried effectively--pointing out that, however you might feel about her, there are still enormous differences between her and the GOP. “Well, I don't think the Republicans got the message that I'm voting and sounding like them,” she said. “On every issue from health care for children to an energy policy that puts us on the right track … I have been standing against the Republicans, George Bush and Dick Cheney.” Hillary, like Rudy Giuliani, has so far been able to win over skeptical members of her party by invoking their common enemies. There's no reason to think that stopped working tonight.

The real development was the contrast between Obama and Edwards, both of whom were auditioning for the role of Clinton alternative, and who sounded at times like two homicide detectives working over a murder suspect.

Edwards struck me as more compelling, for two reasons. First, his delivery was far more confident and focused. Obama backed into his attack almost apologetically—“some of this [expected confrontation] gets overhyped,” he said at the outset, sounding a little jittery. “In fact, I think this has been the most hyped fight since Rocky Balboa fought Apollo Creed.” He looked relieved after his opening salvo and conspicuously didn’t invoke Clinton’s name during his next few responses. It was as though, having finally proved he could challenge Clinton to her face, he was eager to resume his usual posture.

By contrast, Edwards cut immediately to the issue of Clinton’s honesty and kept pounding her over and over again. “Well, I just listened to what Senator Clinton said and she said she wanted to maximize pressure on the Bush administration,” he harrumphed after Clinton explained her Iran position.  “So the way to do that is to vote yes on a resolution that looks like it was written, literally, by the neo-cons?” The very next time Edwards had the floor, he landed a lacerating combination, first questioning Hillary’s judgment, then her arrogance. “[W]hat I worry about is, if Bush invades Iran six months from now, I mean, are we going to hear:  ‘If only I had known then what I know now?’” And then: “I saw an explanation of … her vote which basically said she was moving from primary mode to general election mode. I think that our responsibility as presidential candidates is to be in ‘tell the truth’ mode all the time.” 

Edwards’s second advantage was the way he framed his case against Hillary. Both he and Obama were essentially questioning Clinton’s integrity. But Obama chose to do so by portraying Hillary as a flip-flopper: “Senator Clinton, in her campaign, I think has been for NAFTA previously. Now she's against it. She has taken one position on torture several months ago, and then most recently has taken a different position.” Problem is, thanks to the 2004 campaign, the flip-flopper charge mostly connotes weakness and irresolution. That’s  the opposite of people’s intuitions about Clinton--and the opposite of the way she came off tonight. What was intended as an attack on Clinton’s integrity ended up as a bit of a muddle.

Edwards’s approach was different: Rather than accuse Clinton of flip-flopping--which is to say, saying one thing, then saying another--he accused of Clinton saying one thing and then doing another. Which is to say, he accused Clinton of lying, something that goes to the heart of people’s concerns about her. When, for example, Edwards complained that, “[s]he says she'll stand up to George Bush on Iran. … [a]nd, in fact, she voted to give George Bush the first step in moving militarily on Iran,” there was no ambiguity about which character flaw he was highlighting.

In fairness, Obama had his moments tonight. For the most part, they just didn’t have anything to do with Clinton. I thought his best response came after a question about how his Muslim-sounding name would play among voters. “I have confidence in the American people,” Obama said. “There is no doubt that my background is not typical of a presidential candidate. I think everybody understands that. But that's part of what is so powerful about America, is that it gives all of us the opportunity--a woman, a Latino, myself--the opportunity to run.” This is vintage Obama uplift, and it struck the perfect note.

Obama also shined when criticizing the GOP’s policy priorities. “There's a building in the Cayman Islands that supposedly houses 12,000 U.S. corporations, which means it is either the largest building in the world or the biggest tax ripoff in the world,” he said. “So there has to be a restoration of balance in our tax code …  [C]losing loopholes and rolling back the Bush tax cuts to the top 1 percent, simply restores some fairness and a sense that we're all in this together, as opposed to each of us being in it on our own.” I consider Obama the most compelling defender of liberal values I’ve ever seen on the campaign trail, and that continued to be the case tonight.

At times I get the sense Obama is caught in a dilemma of his own making. His whole “changing politics” motif is really an implicit argument about why he and not Hillary Clinton should be the nominee: It implicitly rebuts the argument that he lacks experience (Washington experience is bad if the established way of doing things has failed), and it implicitly raises doubts about Hillary’s strengths (she’s tainted for having been in Washington so long). But the problem with an implicit argument is that, in order for voters to get the message, you’ve got to make it explicit at some point, which Obama clearly isn’t comfortable doing. So we’ve seen him inch reluctantly in a direction which the logic of his own campaign dictates, and it’s maddening to watch.

I can’t help feeling Obama could have avoided this whole mess had he been less preoccupied with Clinton from the get-go and more concerned with making the best case for himself. He has real assets in that regard, as we saw tonight. It’s a shame we don’t see more of them.

--Noam Scheiber

Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:22 AM with 29 comment(s)

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budlavery said:

I believe this account is reasonably accurate, though I think it discounts the importance of Clinton's evasion on the illegal immigrant drivers license question. I thought that this was a very defining moment of the debate, as she was finally caught -- live -- in the act of trying to fudge an answer. With any luck this just might change the storyline from "Hillary the frontrunner" to "Hillary the waffler."

So far her fellow Democrats have let her get away with this. The Republicans will not be as charitable, which is why she should not be the nominee.

October 31, 2007 7:09 AM

The Ignorant Populist said:

I'm not sure I get it Noam. He's been too focused on Hillary yet needs to attack Hillary more? Doesn't sound right.

I like his image of the off shore tax building.

Edwards is best placed to get stuck in but what worries me about Obama is his one trick pony.

Can anyone remember a succesful Democratic or Republican campaign that won based on hope and the unity of hope?

How is he going to perform in front of Rudy with personal attacks, argumments over tax freedom etc.

If he can't show some fight in the primaries in front of die hard liberals how is he going to butch up for the general?

October 31, 2007 8:55 AM

The Ignorant Populist said:

"Obama backed into his attack almost apologetically—“some of this [expected confrontation] gets overhyped,” he said at the outset, sounding a little jittery."

Put your balls back on Obama. If at this junction in the polls he can't get stuck in, then what is he going to be like in the general debates?

I don't think he's up to the task.

October 31, 2007 9:01 AM

virginiacentrist said:

"Can anyone remember a succesful Democratic or Republican campaign that won based on hope and the unity of hope? "

Reagan. Beat the establishment in the primary, then won in a landslide. I mean...he ran on other things, but his chief message was a return of American greatness - a hopeful message delivered by a crinkly old man.

October 31, 2007 11:27 AM

blackton said:

I am starting to like an Edwards-Obama ticket more and more. Send the ice queen back to one of her many palaces. Let us have a real Democratic ticket to go up against the Romney-Huckabee ticket.

If it is Guiliani against Hillary I give up, I will just strap a rocket to my ass and leave the planet.

October 31, 2007 11:32 AM

wldctfan142 said:

This is a good summation of last night, Noam. Regarding edwards, i imagine he knows he's up against it now, so might as well swing for the bleachers. Or, to put it in boxing terms, we're in the last few rounds and he's way behind on all the scorecards. The only hope now is a KO.

About obama, i wonder if its just not in his nature to be as aggressive as he should be. Reverting again, to the fight game, he perceives he's behind, but he doesn't neccessarily believe time is running out. Whether it actually is or not, i can't say. He also knows, that sooner or later, he will have to close in with hillary and intiate some violent exchanges, and i get the feeling he finds having to do that personally distasteful.

Meanwhile hillary, with virtually the entire MSM in her corner, has no problem with thumbing, raking the laces over her opponents eye's, hitting below the belt when the opportunity presents itself, and letting fly with a few well-placed elbows. A tough, grizzled, and no-holds barred campaigner. Once the fight gets underway, she has a thugs love for combat.

Or, if you prefer a football anology, she's the conrad dobler of politics.

October 31, 2007 11:43 AM

wldctfan142 said:

I wholeheartedly agree with virginiacentrist about reagan.

October 31, 2007 11:46 AM

butchie b said:

Blackie, have a nice trip.  Actually, I think HRC v. Romney is more likely, but only slightly.  Always bet on the taller guy with more hair.  Besides, when it comes right down to it, for a lot of my GOP friends, 1 marriage trumps 3 marriages.

Wildcat is spot on - HRC will stop at nothing.  She's as thuggish as they come.

Should be fun to watch - like Ali-Frazier.

October 31, 2007 11:55 AM

blackton said:

yeah, me too about VC. Reagan ran on hope, as did Kennedy, and Roosevelt. It seems every generation has someone who runs on Hope. Even Bill ran on Hope, he touted himself as the guy from Hope Arkansas. On the Republican side now the only one who does it is Huckabee (who oddly enough is also from Hope)

Hillary is running on resentment, as a way to stick the Democrats finger in the eyes of Republicans. She is poison, the worst candidate of the Dems. and Rudy is running on fear. Hillary vs. Rudy is my nightmare.

October 31, 2007 11:58 AM

J.J. Gould said:

wldctfan -- Maybe Bam's going for a rope-a-dope!

October 31, 2007 11:59 AM

psantillana said:

Blackton you killed me with that rocket! Everyone here (but me) hates Andrew Sullivan but he addressed the prospect of HRC vs. RG with similar pragmatic horror: "I'll jump off that bridge when I come to it." It actually does help the anxiety to see my imaginary friends feeling as I do - it cracks me up and it gives me HOPE.

October 31, 2007 12:48 PM

teplukhin2you said:

HRC v Romney isn't Ali-Frazier. More like Tyson vs Wepner. Say what you will about Hillary's unpleasantness, Romney comes across as the most obnoxious MBA whippersnapper know-it-all you ever met. Lizza did a nice takedown of the Bainie in the New Yorker recently.

October 31, 2007 1:01 PM

purcellneil said:

I think Hillary got hurt yesterday.  Had she admitted to seeing UFOs with Kucinich, she could hardly have looked less ready to be President.

Obama and Edwards looked better than ever to me - I could support either one of these guys.  However, despite my ongoing support for Edwards - including more money that I have ever given to any candidate - I have finally concluded that Joe Biden is the best man for the job.

This has been brewing for a while - the guy has made a strong positive impression on me all along. Biden is definitely ready for the White House.   It is a shame he has so little chance of getting there.

Neil

October 31, 2007 1:59 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Neil -

Yeah - biden is probably the best communicator (both speeches AND debates) and the smartest and most qualified guy. It'll be great to have him in the next administration.

October 31, 2007 2:18 PM

teplukhin2you said:

A shame about both Biden and Dodd. Either would be a better pres. than any of the Tier I's.

Excepting Richardson, the Tier II's should be Tier I's and v-v.

October 31, 2007 2:30 PM

purcellneil said:

I wonder how the candidates would stack up if we polled TNR subscribers here...

October 31, 2007 2:55 PM

butchie b said:

Great, tep, so the 2 most obnoxious candidates will be our nominees.  Man, the next year is going to painful.

I don't see anything in Chris Dodd - no basis on which he should be President.  But I grant you that Biden is qualified, and will make a good SecState.

October 31, 2007 2:55 PM

boneill said:

I disagree- with neil and VC on board, I feel Biden gaining momentum.

A little, anyway.  He is being talked about, but I think it is a little too late.  I am firmly in the Biden camp, but know that there is very little chance.  

Did anyone see Rudy's response to Biden ripping him?  So very, very petty and ugly.  A Hill-Rudy general election wouldn't be fun: it would be the most awful, ugly race we've seen in a while, making Bush-Kerry look like candidates for Lady Byng.  That is exactly what we don't need right now.  It makes me sick to even think about it.

October 31, 2007 3:00 PM

vanwurs said:

Amen to the props for Joe Biden.  I always have loved the guy.  Unfortunately, his moment came and went about four years ago to the month...back in 2003 about this time when Kerry was imploding (seemingly), Dean was rising and Edwards was not seeming to get any traction.  Both Biden and Clark explored the possiblity of a late entry and Biden ultimately defferred to Clark.  The rest is (unfortunate) history.  I remain convinced to this day that Joe Biden could have gotten at least that three million votes that Kerry couldn't, and we would have been spared four more disasterous Bush years.  

Politics is all about timing, isn't it?

October 31, 2007 3:06 PM

frb63 said:

+1 for Joe Biden. Though last night's performance was not his best IMO, he is consistently the most direct, honest, and informed candidate in the mix. I can't count the number of times in these debates when another candidate has piggybacked on one of Biden's insights with "Joe's right" or "I agree with Joe" before imparting their own spin. He's clearly got the respect of everyone up there, not to mention quite a few Republicans. He's ready to be a very effective foreign policy-oriented President.  

October 31, 2007 3:13 PM

LISAH said:

Yeah -- what is is that all the media, as in this article, just focusses on the celebs and ignores the most competent -- Biden and Dodd would make the best presidents. In terms of reaching the mainstream of US politics, they'd probably also make the best candidates, in terms of appeal to a broad part of the electorate...Am on Biden e-mail list, and their item today noted that Biden got just 6 minutes to talk out of the 2 hours (I didn't see the debate -- don't have cable)...

Here's start of Biden campaign e-mail on the debate:

"Last night, given just 6 minutes to speak during the two hour debate (less than any other candidate), Joe Biden turned in a performance that was, as someone here described, "just scary good." Whether it was showcasing a breadth of knowledge that left his Democratic rivals agreeing with him at every turn, or eviscerating Rudy Guiliani with the best line of the night, Joe Biden showed why he's the best candidate to take on the Republican candidate in the election next year and bring real change to the White House as President in 2009.

All in less time than was allocated to the commercial breaks. The "so-called" frontrunners are frightened of what Senator Biden could do with an equal amount of time.

Today, it's more clear than ever why other campaigns, both Democratic and Republican, are scared of facing Joe Biden in a debate, and it's not just because today is Halloween. "

Etc.....

Incredibly frustrating to be stuck with the celebs. Just seems to be in the ether...

October 31, 2007 3:22 PM

boneill said:

LISAH- On the email list as well.  It seemed like they were reaching with some of the praise the pundits gave him, but overall it is a positive step.   I wasn't a big fan of their email the other day, though, when they announced that they are now (paraphrasing slightly) "within the statistical margin of error of Bill Richardson!".   I saw that as a Plank item in my head.  

October 31, 2007 3:30 PM

LISAH said:

boneill -- yes, agreed -- that was a bit strange, plankly speaking...

Would like to think that if Biden could finish at least 3rd in Iowa, maybe maybe maybe something could change. Not likely, though, given that media ether that seems to fog everything up....

October 31, 2007 3:35 PM

boneill said:

It is so maddening.  These guys don't seem to realize their power- or, if they do, they revel in it.  "How is Hillary's plan for Iraq playing with the base?"   Shut the fuck up- how realistic is it?   Will it work?  Stop giving us the horse race.   They bury Biden with snark, and then act like they are not at all responsible for him not having any attention.  It is maddening.

October 31, 2007 3:53 PM

boneill said:

ps, LISAH- agreed about Iowa.   I think I am going to volunteer to be there, even though exactly zero things appeal to me about Iowa in January.  

October 31, 2007 3:53 PM

LISAH said:

boneill -- all good luck if you do -- wish I could. Hope you'll report back ---

Fully agree on the horse race focus. Interesting to me how many people here and how many people I know as close friends, casually, through work, are impressed with Biden and like him best. And the media blitzers get to call the punches -- what about the rest of us????

I'm -- uh -- stumped.

October 31, 2007 4:14 PM

The Plank said:

Over at his excellent site , Marc Ambinder has posted a memo from the Clinton campaign about last night's

October 31, 2007 4:23 PM

s4200 said:

Edwards is a promise of good winning over bad.

He should come out with stories to show the good and bad clearly in our immediate society.

He should innovate radically.

He must show the public the immense troubles plaguing many nations.

Many bad people are in charge of the life of the people.

So it must be clear to the Americans that nations are overrun by bad people.

It is spilling to these shores too.

Obama is no inspiration to me. He is not smart. There is no reason for his running.

He can fool a lot of people seemingly.

October 31, 2007 8:09 PM

psantillana said:

I agree with the Biden love, and think the best way to realistically help the guy is to get rid of at least one one other candidate from the debate stage.  I would like to vote Richardson off the island.  How does this work? I realize that in terms of money/polling, he would not be the first to go, but he's the boringest and wrongest.  Shouldn't that count for something?

I also liked Dodd coming out for legalizing mj.  That was interesting and fun, the two seconds that was debated.

November 1, 2007 6:31 PM