Why not listen to an authority on the Jews? Rush Limbaugh put this on his website yesterday - Why Jews support Democrats:

www.rushlimbaugh.com/.../01125111.guest.html

Marty,

Yes, majority of American Jews are morons.  However majority of Palestinians and majority of Jews in Israel know that Obama will make things worse for them.  They prefer McCain.  When Biden was saying '"it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”,  he meant  Israel.  He is going to screw up Israel, cause major pain for Israel and Palestinians and  Biden predicts  that it’s not gonna be apparent that Obama is right,  

Blackstone, Yes I admit being antisemitic racist  with a small penis.

jacobt1 said:  "Yes, majority of American Jews are morons."

if anyone is going to convince me to vote for Obama, it's assholes like you Jacob.

The majority of Jew in America are not morons. They are Democrats. To you it may be the same thing but that only shows me what a moron you are.

I am still voting for McCain, btw.

Just to prove just how stupid is the smartest Democratic Liberal Jew:

Re ‘Thank You, Barney Frank, for Your Honesty’   [Jay Nordlinger]

Congressman Frank is usually described as one of the smartest of the Democrats, and smartest of the liberals, and, if so, we’re in bad shape: because he says, “The people of Iraq want us out, and we want to stay over their objection. It’s extraordinary.”

What an extraordinarily stupid statement. I have spent a fair amount of time on the question of the American presence in Iraq: whether the Iraqis desire that presence or not. I spent some time on it when I was in Iraq earlier this month. And all those who are familiar with the issue will say essentially the same things.

No one likes to be occupied, of course. And Iraqis would prefer us gone. They want no foreigners around at all — and that includes al-Qaeda and other terrorists.

They also want to be safe from predation. They don’t want to be left to the wolves. And many Iraqis — you could meet them — are terrified that the coalition will withdraw too soon, which is to say before the country can defend itself.

As I wrote in my Iraq journal earlier, it’s “Yankee, go home — but Yankee, stay, too. Don’t go home yet. Go home when it’s safe for us that you do — when our own authorities can beat back the extremists.”

You should have seen the people I talked with in a Baghdad marketplace: who dread a premature American withdrawal, because the wolves would be at their throats again. You should have met the Iraqi colonel who said, if we Americans leave too soon, we will turn over the country to al-Qaeda and Iran — and people like him will have to flee for their lives.

Barney Frank said, sweepingly, “The people of Iraq want us out.” He is supposed to be just about the smartest of the liberals. And if Americans are going to unite the federal government under liberals — we are in deep waters.

corner.nationalreview.com/post

For the record, Liberal Jews l are not stupid because they are Jews, they are fools because they liberal

However, given that 74% of us will vote Obama, will we all be blamed for the harm Obama will cause to national security and economy of US?  The answer is yes. we'll always be blamed.

The complicated relationship between black and Jewish constituencies is one of the more interesting (to me at least) stories in the past half-century of American politics. This is great news, thanks for posting it Marty.

jacobt1 said:  “Just to prove just how stupid is the smartest Democratic Liberal Jew…”

Jacob, you don’t get it.

First I am voting for McCain not because I agree with his economic policies, I don’t. I am voting for McCain for two reasons: first Obama in terms of accomplishments and experience has not shown me that he is qualified to be Presidents.

Oh, I am sure he will do alright given that he has surrounded himself with brilliant advisors. To me, though, I’d like to know that the President is someone who can tell the difference between good and bad advice. (Bush too had to rely on advisers and see the mess he has made of things.) Obama may be able to do so, but he has not shown me that thus far that he can.  

Second, and most importantly I don’t think it’s good for our democracy to have one party I overwhelming control of the government. With the Congress in Democratic hands a McCain presidency would be best for our country.

I am not surprised that most Jews will vote Democratic. This is in keeping with voter from other demographics. Among Independent voters, Women, Men, Hispanics, etc. a majority will vote for Obama.

Most voters don’t vote on principle, but that doesn’t make them dumb. They vote their immediate interest. And Jacob, only a fanatic would fail to see that the Republican administration has done very little for the average person in this country over the last eight years. Add to that the financial catastrophe as well as the looming recession I see no reason why anyone should trust Republicans in office.

I find the hysterical reaction to the impending Democratic victory very interesting, just as leftist fanatics tend to blame “false consciousness” on the part of voters who don’t support them, right wing conservatives (not the same thing) see non libertarian voters as “dumb.” (Often time also as “communists”---I recently heard a right wing radio talk show say that impendent voters who will vote for Obama were “communists.”)

This is what fanatics always do they can never admit that it was their ideology or their program that drove people away. For them it’s always the fault of the very people they are trying to save.

Jacob can import as many links as you like but until you see how hopeless your arguments in support of the Republican cause are you will never be able to figure out how to regain power.

David Brooks in a recent NY Times editorial said it best when he exclaimed that it takes talent for the Republicans to alienate the middle class voter as well as the Bankers. This is exactly what they did.

The silver lining in all of this is that a defeated party will have to rethink its stance on economic issues from the ground up.

I read that McCain had wanted to let the base of the party go and run as a true moderate conservative. I wish he had done so. He might have had a chance. A slim one, but a chance nonetheless.

We do need a conservative party but the Republican Party as it is constituted today is not conservative at all. It is a bastion of libertarian true believers who care about only one thing: taxation which is to say their own money and not the welfare of the country or preserving its political and social culture; time for you to read Edmund Burke, Jacob.

As to foreign policy, the Democrats don’t have a monopoly on stupidity. What did the Bush team accomplish? They handed Iraq over to the Shiites were they can and probably will institute another Islamic Republic.  

"jacobt1 said:

Marty,

Yes, majority of American Jews are morons."

Fuck you bastard. You're luck you're online, you fucking anti-Semite. If you said this to my face, you shitty Jew-hater, I would break you jaw in real life. Go fuck yourself you shit, go masturbate to Hitler.

""jacobt1 said:  "Yes, majority of American Jews are morons."""

And listen you piece of shit jacobt1, don't come here with stories of how you're Jewish. We've had enough traitors, from Nicholas Donin to Trotzky to Judische Polizei to Noam Chomsky. If you are born Jewish, you're just one of these scum-of-the-earth bastards. So go fuck yourself you cowardly anti-Semitic shit.  

In the old times we had ndmacknezie being a resident anti-Semite, but he stopped a while ago. Now you came, you slimy Hitler ass-licker lowlife.

Yes, majority of American Jews are morons. However most of Israeli Jews are not morons. It's just a fact.

BTW, We live in a free country. Don't tell me how to masturbate. I don't need your advise. Don't tell me how should I fuck. I'll figure this out without you. I guess this is a preview of Obama Administration. Everything will be regulated.

"First I am voting for McCain not because I agree with his economic policies, "

The president is not in charge  economic policies,.  

"As to foreign policy, the Democrats don’t have a monopoly on stupidity. What did the Bush team accomplish? They handed Iraq over to the Shiites were they can and probably will institute another Islamic Republic."

Marty, Please   explain to jacksondyer, why did you support the Iraq war and why do you agree with McCain.

Jacksondyer said: "Second, and most importantly I don’t think it’s good for our democracy to have one party I overwhelming control of the government. With the Congress in Democratic hands a McCain presidency would be best for our country."

Well I won't bother arguing with you about the qualifications of McCain vs. Obama as we have before. But I would like to discuss your fear about one party being too powerful. Obama may not be a Blue Dog, but he's not an extremist either. And he would still have to contend with the sizeable Blue Dog faction in the House and moderate Democrats in the Senate even with a supermajority.

In the 2006 Massachusetts Democratic primary, I supported Tom Reilly, who I perceived to be a bit more fiscally conservative than Deval Patrick. I was so shaken when Patrick won the primary that I considered supporting the Republican, Kerry Healey, in the general election as a partial check on a legislature that is 88% Democratic. And then my dad talked some sense into me -- Patrick was the general counsel of Coca-Cola. You can't be an extremist and work in that kind of position. And sure enough, Patrick has taken his role as an executive seriously and not just a Democratic ideologue.

Obama, likewise, is not a demagogue and an ideologue. Nor is McCain, for that matter. But divided government in these times is paralyzing with partisanship so high. There is TOO MUCH hindrance to passing major legislation right now. America faces some pretty decently big challenges now, and (1) gridlock, and (2) Republicans are keeping common sense solutions from being implemented.

Imagine an Obama presidency, a 58-seat majority in the Senate, and 245 seats in the House. Obama would still have to work with moderate Democrats and Republicans to get major initiatives passed. That's his style anyway. You know well that elected Democrats are less radical than MoveOn, too.

jacobt1 said:

"First I am voting for McCain not because I agree with his economic policies, "

"The president is not in charge  economic policies,."

Jacob, of course the President is in charge of economic policies. I think you meant to say that he is not in charge of economic conditions.

This is only partly true, though libertarian Republicans would like to believe that it's completely true.

Libertarian economics is as fanciful and utopian as Marxist economics.

“Marty, Please   explain to jacksondyer, why did you support the Iraq war and why do you agree with McCain.”

I don’t need Marty’s explanations. I supported the overthrow of Saddam. I didn’t support the clumsy way it was carried out.

The rest is painful history.  

  rozenson said:  “Imagine an Obama presidency, a 58-seat majority in the Senate, and 245 seats in the House. Obama would still have to work with moderate Democrats and Republicans to get major initiatives passed. That's his style anyway. You know well that elected Democrats are less radical than MoveOn, too.”

I give the MoveOn point. However, imagine an Obama Presidency with a 61 seat majority and 250 seats in the House.

Different story isn’t it.

As to divided government leading to stalemate, it doesn’t have to do that and McCain is moderate enough to work with the Democratic majority.

However, alas, I fear that we have a stronger chance to see if you views are right since it looks like Obama will be elected within a fortnight. I hope my fears about an Obama Presidency are misplaced.

good lord you miserable germ...only the anonymity of on line blogging allows you to come to this blog with your miserable jew hating venom. If there was anything left of your miserable carcass after sleepy had at you, I would be inclined to reassemble your broken parts just so I could have a crack at you...

you have come to tnr and posted racist words about African Americans and now American Jews....

Perhaps after you send your posts, you feel some sort of twisted satisfaction. Who knows. All I know is that we have had a few real foul posters here at tnr but never has anyone approached your Olympian level of stupidity and bigotry.

"All I know is that we have had a few real foul posters here at tnr but never has anyone approached your Olympian level of stupidity and bigotry."

And unpopularity.

Jackson, I think I'm just so used to seeing Republicans as the wielders of power that I can't even imagine a scenario in which the Democrats just have their way with the country. I was five when Newt Gingrich became Speaker of the House.

rozenson said:  "Jackson, I think I'm just so used to seeing Republicans as the wielders of power that I can't even imagine a scenario in which the Democrats just have their way with the country. I was five when Newt Gingrich became Speaker of the House."

You are a lucky boy, then.

The Democrats were in absolute control under Lyndon Johnson and they did do some fine things but they overdid and it and it got us almost forty plus years of Republican rule off and on.

If you think Republican fighting Democrats can turn vicious wait till you see Democrats go at each other.  

jack for your consideration  I think and in line withyour good posts here: www.realclearpolitics.com/.../security_first_why_im_voting_f.html

I hereby report "abuse":  Jacob should be banned from further postings.

Rozenson: You are going to have a government--not counting the judiciary--consisting of an unholy triumvirate of Reid, Pelosi and Obama. Obama is prefreable to the first two who are ideologues, whose ideology transcends their coomon sense. It remains to be seen how Obama will deal with them. But think of it Rozenson: Pelosi and Reid in a position to call shots. I'm a Canadian and it still scares me shitless that these 2 impoverished specimens can possibly snap the reins of power as they will.

Basman:  What worries you about Reid and Pelosi specifically?  I don't like Reid because he's basically ineffectual, uninspiring, and generally lame.  (I'd hardly say dangerous.)  I do like Pelosi, because I think she's smart and tough and isn't ideologically nutso.  You apparently disagree, but based on what exactly?  That she's from San Francisco?

rozenson said:

"And then my dad talked some sense into me -- Patrick was the general counsel of Coca-Cola. You can't be an extremist and work in that kind of position. Obama, likewise, is not a demagogue and an ideologue"

"likewise" what?  

Obama is a demagogue.

"ELKHART, Ind. -- Barack Obama is cranking up the populist rhetoric.

He'll sock oil companies with a windfall profits tax to give American families a $1,000 "energy rebate," he tells voters at a town hall meeting in Youngstown, Ohio, on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, Obama says, John McCain would lavish "$4 billion more in tax breaks to the biggest oil companies in America -- including $1.2 billion to Exxon-Mobil ... a company that, last quarter, made the same amount of money in 30 seconds that a typical Ohio worker makes in a year.""

www.realclearpolitics.com/.../obama_pivots_to_populism.html

Your dad is a wise man. Disregard everything that a politician says during campaign, look at their record. Obama was involved with very  left wing  organizations. You can't be an moderate  and work in that kind of positions.

I think I agree with whoever said Jews will be blamed no matter who is elected. Jews are not allowed to disappoint the perceptions others have of them. tHey are supposed to be the overman: morally, intelligence wise, knowledge, the lot. If they follow the same patterns of thoughts and priorities as non-Jews, they disappoint expectations and must be flogged for it. Already on my Internet travels I encounter the poison from both Right and left. tHe right says the Jews don't apprciate the goodness of McCain to Israel, the Left says they don't really belong on the Left if they support Israel. And that's a vaery mild form of the kinds of views I read.

Jews are blamed for Bush and Jews are blamed for Chomsky. There is nowhere where Jews are not blamed. Even the Jews of Israel are blamed, either for the Iraq war, or for not being tough enough with the Arabs. Bloody unbelievable! What a convenient scapegoat. Nowhere to hide. Just like it says in the Quran.  

Jacob T: I have many Jewish friends (how's that for the oldest one in the book?) who actually have a great affinity for the Republican Party's positions on finance and defense. They continue to vote Democratic, however, for the simple reason that the cornpone Christian piety of the GOP leadership (and its overwhelmingly Southern character) scares them to death. And I think that Democratic dominance over the votes and the checks of the Jews has been guaranteed for another 20 years, given that the most vibrant young leadership of the GOP (Huckabee, Palin, even Bobby Jindal) come from the Christian Right.

THIS is the problem. It is the product that the sellers are providing in the political marketplace, not the buyers who turn up their nose at it ("moronic" though they may be). You want to earn the allegiance of new buyers? Start selling a line that they'll buy. A party made up solely of straight Christian whites will simply not be able to win at the national level.

If I may interrupt the tossing of crockery, I have to say the endorsement of Obama in TNR is wonderfully done (talk about fair and balanced), Leon Wieseltier's endorsement of Obama was extraordinary (brilliantly done), and that the only people who hate Jews are people who don't know them. To know them is to admire them. And the Irish. The Irish are pretty good too. Not as smart, but....

After my 800th comment on The Plank, The Stump, The Branch, The Root, whatever -  I feel I've earned some Honorary Jew status. Sorta like Frequent Flyer Miles.

I'd like to see a new blog started called The Bachmann. Nothing but posts regarding politicans and other public figures who channel Talk Radio.

Thanks, Itzig, for the link to the Krauthammer piece. Too bad so many intelligent commentators these days got themselves wrapped in political klatches or bands were individuals shed their individuality for the sake of their political identity.

I miss magazines like Partisan Reviews that didn’t endorse candidates and were writers tended to exhibit their idiosyncratic selves.  Even political magazines like The Nation used to once upon a time tolerate dissenting opinions in their ranks.

It’s been downright depressing for me to see Wieseltier employ his considerable intelligence and writing abilities to justify, not very convincingly, his endorsement of Obama. His mental acrobatics have been pretty ludicrous at times.

"Disregard everything that a politician says during campaign, look at their record. Obama was involved with very  left wing  organizations. You can't be an moderate  and work in that kind of positions."  jacobt1

I agree, Jacob.

However, it's

"You can't be a moderate and work in that kind of positions."   and not

"You can't be an moderate and work in that kind of positions."  

Didn't your English teacher tell you that you use "a" before a consonant and "an" before a vowel?

You could of course say: You can't be an immoderate (politician) and work in that kind of positions."  

"....and that the only people who hate Jews are people who don't know them."

Gee, that's 90 percent or more  of the people in the world, isn't it?

fougasseu:

"...To know them is to admire them"

This reminds me of something recently said here:

“I’m not anti-Jewish. In fact, I am exactly the opposite. I’m very pro-Israeli, because I think the Jews are a nation of geniuses.”

www.spiked-online.com/index.php

I was wondering what happens to pro-Jewishism when the entertainer of such lofty sentiments encounters a dumb Jew. (I'll tell you a secret: there are any... multitudes, in fact, especially in Israel...).

Really, what a silly thing to say. Imagine someone being promised that in a certain country, all the women are excepttionally beautiful. He lands in that country, full of expectations,  and all he sees are women much like in his own country, more or less beautiful, more or less ugly... Is he going to be one disappointed dude, or what?  And who does he blame for this "deceit"? Who gets the brunt of his disappointed expectations?

BTW, in Israel, all the girls are beautiful:

www.youtube.com/watch

On the whole divided government point, I'm not convinced it's as great as people make it out to be.  It's worth noting that we have a divided government now, and it sort of sucks.  Unidivided government gave us Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Civil Rights Act (though to be fair, that actually had more opposition among Southern Democrats than among Republicans).  If the Democrats get something major accomplished (read: Universal Health Care) before they become corrupted by their newfound power, it will be worth it.

As to Pelosi and Reid, I can't say I'm particularly happy with them as leaders, not because they're too liberal, but because they present a cringe-inducing public face of the party.  I agree with jhildner on Reid (the idea of somebody being unable to "stand up" to Harry Reid is laughable), but I disagree on Pelosi.  I remember going to see her speak when she came to Penn before the 2006 election and being thoroughly unimpressed.  For a woman whose job title begins with "speaker," she's pretty terrible at it.  Is this a shallow way to evaluate her? Maybe, but I do think that selling proposals is an important part of the job.  Plus, she shares the Democrats' unhealthy obsession with holding hearings instead of legislating.

Rather intellectually dishonest of Krauthammer to talk so much about experience and foreign policy gravitas without mentioning Sarah Palin. I'm disappointed -- Krauthammer could have given a much less hackish endorsement than he did.

They certainly are Noga. Nearly enough for me to regret my naked anti-semitism. Cunning Jews using beautiful women to rule the world.

What's a naked antisemite? Someone who writes hyphenated antisemitism?

JHildner, I could have lived without the San Francisco cheap shot. That said, here’s a microcosmic grain of sand that can stand for what is cosmically terrible about Pelosi—terrible. She went, against American interests, as her own secretary of state, and against state requests that she not do so, to visit with Assad. She said after she met him that she told him that Olmert told her that Israel was ready for peace talks with Syria and said that Bashar told her that Syria was ready to get on with the peace process. She said that she could facilitate that, shuttle diplomacy-style. But Olmert’s office denied having entrusted her with any such message and that Israel understood Syrian policy toward it was unchanged, rhetorical flourishes to the contrary notwithstanding. She got sucked into Bashar’s jive and went public with it, in the process misrepresenting all positions and humiliating and infuriating Israel. At the time, as well,  American policy was the freezing of top level contacts with Syria. Pelosi exploded that policy by her visit and by her errant free lancing. Pelosi was trying, in her words, to kick start a peace process by her visit to Syria. She said the road to peace was through Damascus. Trouble was that Assad is a murdering dictator who most recently orchestrated the murder of Hariri. And the trouble was she tried to usurp Bush’s foreign policy prerogatives, when she was in way over her head and did not know what she was doing. (I don’t give a fuck where she is from Jhildner and I love San Francisco for that matter, having left my heart in the Tenderloin more than once. But if you want some more specifics, just ask: I’ve got a million of them.)

The Ignorant antisemite has spoken, yet again.

"And the trouble was she tried to usurp Bush’s foreign policy prerogatives, when she was in way over her head and did not know what she was doing."

May I point out that this was what the covert ops of the Reagan campaign did to Carter during fall of 1980, which involved negotiating on behalf of someone who wasn't even president yet to make sure that the hostages weren't released before the election?  A rather more serious breach of the rules, I'd say.

mcorey.geo said:,

"They continue to vote Democratic, however, for the simple reason that the cornpone Christian piety of the GOP leadership (and its overwhelmingly Southern character) scares them to death."

Yes, majority of American Jews are morons and snobs.  I was one of them. I'm so glad that Hillary lost. If she didn't I would probably continue to be close minded snobby liberal.  What's the problem Jews have with Christian Right. What's the worst case scenario for them? Abortions are not going to be illegal in FL, CA or NY. Is there such huge difference between civil unions and the same sex marriage? Can't Jews find a way to teach their children  birth control in Sunday schools. Would  minds of Jewish kids really explode if they would be told that some people think that the Genesis might not be a complete fair tale?  

I would take Christian Right over anti-Semitic, anti-Israel Left any time   Hate from anti-Semitic, anti-Israel Left,  Jewish kids experience today on college campuses, is so much worse than any worse cases scenario possible discomfort  from  Christian Right.

Alright Basman,

I had no knowledge of any of this business you just wrote about -- I'm ready for your full list.

JH

p.s.  Basman, I don't really evaluate Pelosi on foreign affairs -- as that's not her job -- and was considering more her skills at leading House Democrats.  I've read some favorable reviews on that score.  The other piece of it was that I'm not clear as to why she is considered a leftist on policy.  This is in the context of the concern expressed by some that we're in for a rampaging Liberal Congress, which I don't buy.

jacobt1, you're worried that I tll you to stop masturbating to Hitler, which as the Nazi you are, you are clearly doing.

I tell you whatever I want. If you don't like it, go fuc yourself some more, swastika boy. In real life, if we met, I would break your jaw for the anti-semite things you have said. I know how to land a punch and I would have nothing but glee in doing it to you.

jacobt1:

"Yes, majority of American Jews are morons and snobs.  I was one of them."

Here's our Chomsky-style anti-Semite. The far-Right and far-Left in a right embrace of shitheads.

jacobt1 is one of those people who end up like the Jewish kid who became the deputy chief of a radical ad violent American Nazi group that bombed synagogues.

When he found out that A. M. Rosenthal was going to publish in the New York Times that he was actually a Jew by birth (and that he had had a bar-mitzvah), he begged Rosenthal not to do it and threatened suicide. Rosenthal thankfully published it. The Jew-turned-Nazi then committed suicide. Mazel Tov!

""And the trouble was she tried to usurp Bush’s foreign policy prerogatives, when she was in way over her head and did not know what she was doing."

May I point out that this was what the covert ops of the Reagan campaign did to Carter during fall of 1980, which involved negotiating on behalf of someone who wasn't even president yet to make sure that the hostages weren't released before the election?  A rather more serious breach of the rules, I'd say"

Two wrongs making a right? Isn't it a logical fallacy?

"Yes, majority of American Jews are morons and snobs."

You know, jacob, maybe if you could work up a style of debate and argument that shows some basic, minimal respect for other people, you might not provoke so much detestation and contempt.

We should go lightly on Jacobt1.  His Idol, President Bush, has been lying to the American Public for years and, as it turns out, was a very weak leader who would only do what Cheney told him to do, even if it meant reversing his campaign promise on global warming or his statement about not being in favor of Nation Building.  You must whisper gently in the ear of Jacobt1: "Keating Five" "Crashed five plans." "Doesn't know much about the Economy," "Was against the Bush tax cuts before he was for them," "gets confused about what he is saying at times, like senility,"   "Will continue the Bush policies until we are bankrupt," "His campaign head lobbies for Fannie Mae,"  And any other crap that will irritate Jacobt1.  He really deserves it.

ironyroad,

Yes,  Obama supporters are snobs.  Majority of American Jews are Obama supporters. Therefore,

majority of American Jews are snobs.  

sleepyavl said:

"jacobt1 is one of those people who end up like the Jewish kid who became the deputy chief of a radical ad violent American Nazi group that bombed synagogues. The Jew-turned-Nazi then committed suicide. Mazel Tov!"

Poor boy.  If he tried to kill a judge and his children, bomb Pentagon, a night club with American children, he would d be later declared a citizen of the year, became an educational leader in US, and a friend of a  future Presidential candidate.

What's the problem Jews have with Christian Right?

The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, has publicly voted for American Judaism to be evangelized out of existence. Chosen people after all-- Jesus was MADE for them!

What's the worst case scenario for them?

Sarah Palin!

Abortions are not going to be illegal in FL, CA or NY.

Jewish liberals of CONVICTION want women in all 50 states to be able to acquire a safe abortion. You seem to intimate that pro-choice voters want legal abortion because they're hot to HAVE an abortion. Newsflash: it's no picnic to have an abortion, even a legal, safe one.

Is there such huge difference between civil unions and the same sex marriage?

Oh I'll field this one, you loathsome prick. Yes, here's the difference: civil unions are for monogamous adult relationships you think are dirty and, crucially, want to legislate that dirtiness into the legal code. Marriage is for monogamous adult relationships you respect and want to bless-- you know, like Britney and Kevin!

Can't Jews find a way to teach their children  birth control in Sunday schools?

We have deadly plagues of HIV and teen pregnancy abroad in the land. We have an interest as a society that OTHER PEOPLE's children, not just our own, learn the scientific facts about avoiding these fates.

Would  minds of Jewish kids really explode if they would be told that some people think that the Genesis might not be a complete fairy tale?

No scientist of any repute (hell, even the middle-level pointer-pushers at my own medical school) want intelligent design taught "alongside" evolution. Evolution is a testable, falsifiable fact that I can witness day in and day out on the wards as new bacterial strains mutate and survive past antibiotic after antibiotic. Intelligent design is an article of faith, and a vote for its promotion with public funds is a vote for the long night of medieval ignorance.

I would take Christian Right over anti-Semitic, anti-Israel Left any time

And the notion that Barack Obama is a member of said anti-Israel Left is a complete canard and repeating it over and over doth not make it so.

"We should go lightly on Jacobt1.  His Idol, President Bush, has been lying to the American Public for years and"

FYI, I voted for Gore and Kerry. However, Bush was never as good as MSM portrayed he during first few years of his administration and he as not as bad as he is portrayed today.

"gets confused about what he is saying at times, like senility"

Biden gets confused about what he is saying ALL the  times, like senility.

""Doesn't know much about the Economy,"

Good for him. The key to every successful presidency is an understanding of own limitation. Arrogant jerk Obama believes in his own magical abilities.

""His campaign head lobbies for Fannie Mae,"  

Obama  campaign VP search chairman  led   Fannie Mae.  

" And any other crap that will irritate Jacobt1"

I'm not a McCain cultist. I'm aware that McCain is not a messiah.

Jacobt1 reminds me of Bush and McCain.   If the only tool in your kitbag is war, wage it.  Attack everyone.  Attack.  Attack.  Attack even if it means destroying your own country.  

"I would take Christian Right over anti-Semitic, anti-Israel Left any time   Hate from anti-Semitic, anti-Israel Left,  Jewish kids experience today on college campuses, is so much worse than any worse cases scenario possible discomfort  from  Christian Right. "  Jacob

Here again I can agree with Jacob with this caveat: iit's not an either or, Jacob. Most people are neither part of the antisemitic left or the Christian right.

These are the folks we need to reach out to.

"And the notion that Barack Obama is a member of said anti-Israel Left is a complete canard and repeating it over and over doth not make it so." (mcorey.geo)

I would like to  agree with you. Unfortunately, there appears to be a lot more to this canard than just paranoia and overactive imagination:

"Rashid Khalidi is really, in a sense, the American successor of Edward Said, a very strong advocate for the Palestinians, extremely radical in his views and his opposition to American foreign policy. He was a friend and colleague of Obama. Apparently they used to get together and discuss world affairs. And he’s practically the best friend of Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers features Khalidi in some of his books about how to politicize the teaching for students. So actually, the more you look into it, the more you see that this is not just people running into each other. "

corner.nationalreview.com/post

It is perfectly possible that Obama has done a complete about-face since the times that he was tight with the likes of Khalidi (a person who appeared on Canadian television at the height of the intifada, calmly rejecting the proposal that Palestinians curb their terrorists. Palestinians should not do Israel's policing for it, he said). Obama's more recent avowals are somewhat reassuring but the problems with that is that he has arrived at this new understanding after he launched his presidential campaign. Some people of lesser faith that I call it opportunism.

Jacobt1

"FYI, I voted for Gore and Kerry. However, Bush was never as good as MSM portrayed he during first few years of his administration and he as not as bad as he is portrayed today. "

Why would anyone believe anything you say?   Did you watch McCain say how he agreed with Murtha's attacks on Western Pennsylvania but meant the opposite and then got all flummoxed.  Is that the guy you want in the White House?

jacobt1 said:   “Yes,  Obama supporters are snobs.  Majority of American Jews are Obama supporters. Therefore,

majority of American Jews are snobs.”

Your logic is no better than your grammar, Jacob.

Your are arguing that:

OS are S

And

MAJ are OS

Therefore

MAJ are S

This is faulty logic.

Your assertion that  “most American Jews are snobs” doesn’t follow from the major questionable premise that “(all) Obama supporters are snobs.” (Id like to see how you prove that this is the case.)

If this were true than you should add that most American Black are snobs, and most American gays are snobs and most American women are snobs, etc. That couldn’t make sense even to you, Jacob.

Obama supporters may be wrong, but snobs? Come on man, take a break, you are out of your depth here.

Your argument is neither true nor is the logical form you used valid.

"Is that the guy you want in the White House."

Please, Biden is a clown, Obama is worse.

jacob"  "Obama supporters are snobs."

No evidence of that, but I guess it's a slight advance on "morons and snobs," which is what you said earlier.  So -- hey, maybe it's possible to advance a little up the evolutionary chain.  As I said, if you start to treat people as fellow human beings with different perspectives on the world (and it has to be mutual), maybe you won't generate so much intense dislike and detestation.

Remember, too, there are some civilized limits and borders.  It's possible to express even strong feelings and preferences in way that doesn't put one outside normal non-pathological interaction.

"And the notion that Barack Obama is a member of said anti-Israel Left is a complete canard and repeating it over and over doth not make it so." (mcorey.geo)"

FYI, He was a member  of anti-Israel church for 25 years.

"Jewish liberals of CONVICTION want women in all 50 states to be able to acquire a safe abortion"

However, if majority of people in SD have a different opinion, it's not a big deal for me. Unfortunately, Jewish liberals of CONVICTION want us to get out of Iraq and let them kill each other. For me it's more important

"The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, has publicly voted for American Judaism to be evangelized out of existence."  Jewish liberals of CONVICTION  are secularized  American Judaism  out of existence. Are you afraid that Sarah Palin will evangelize American Judaism out of existence?

"Intelligent design is an article of faith, and a vote for its promotion with public funds is a vote for the long night of medieval ignorance."

First of all, Conservative courts today don't allow Intelligent design to be taught in schools. Even if they do allow some school board to mention  Intelligent design in school, it would not be the end of  the world. The victory in Iraq is more important for me

Dear Jacob the Anti Semite:

    Your bigotry is as impressive as your powers of perception are deficient.  

“The victory in Iraq is more important for me…” Jacob

Meaning what? We have already won in Iraq didn’t you get the news?

We installed a government that is prosecuting Iraqi democrats (small d) who travel to Israel and want to have good relations with the Jewish State.

G-d save us from such victories in the future.

More important than Iraq right now is the threat Iran poses to the region and to the US as well as Europe.

Nusholtz, Jacob is not antisemitic he is just confused. He gets easily confused by the expression of contrary points of view. He thinks it’s snobbish to think for oneself.

Come to think of it, he is just like a lot of Obama supporters. They too can’t tolerate contrary points of view.

Jacsondyer:

  You;re not suggesting Jacob's bigory is merely a contrary point of view. are you?  Jacob said he was an anti-semite.  Was he lying?  All the Obama supporters I know tolerate contrary points of view, except on creationsim in the schools.  I know that some people, like Bush and Palin,  think creationsim is merely a contrary point of view.  The idea of intelligent design as an alternative to scientific theory, really drives left thinking people I know bonkers.    

jacksondyer said:

"He thinks it’s snobbish to think for oneself"

Very few people "think for oneself". Let's just admit that. We all think like people in our demographics.

"Your argument is neither true nor is the logical form you used valid. "

The logical form  is valid.

"The victory in Iraq is more important for me"

I believe that US can influence the outcome in Iraq. If we stay  engaged, there is a chance for Iraq to become sort of democratic, sort of pro-American country. If this happen, the history will treat Bush kindly. I'm afraid, that Obama would prefer to have a disastrous outcome in Iraq if he can blame it on Bush. However, I don't want to argue Iraq. I'm just saying that for me it's more important to vote for a candidate with whom I agree about Iraq, thanto vote for a candidate  who is going to protect me against being " evangelized out of existence".

"All the Obama supporters I know tolerate contrary points of view, except on creationsim in the schools"

Any examples of ideas that Obama supporters can tolerate?  

I've been thinking this for a while so I might as well air it here. I honestly never thought we'd see such a thing in our country - not yet anyway - but I sense what's occurring in this election is a recklessness and abandonment of rationality that has preceded the voluntary surrender of liberty and security in other places

.....

But beyond the elites and the media, my greatest concern is whether this election will show a majority of the voters susceptible to the appeal of a charismatic demagogue. This may seem a harsh term to some, and no doubt will to Obama supporters, but it is a perfectly appropriate characterization. Obama's entire campaign is built on class warfare and human envy. The "change" he peddles is not new. We've seen it before. It is change that diminishes individual liberty for the soft authoritarianism of socialism. It is a populist appeal that disguises government mandated wealth redistribution as tax cuts for the middle class, falsely blames capitalism for the social policies and government corruption (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) that led to the current turmoil in our financial markets, fuels contempt for commerce and trade by stigmatizing those who run successful small and large businesses, and exploits human imperfection as a justification for a massive expansion of centralized government. Obama's appeal to the middle class is an appeal to the "the proletariat," as an infamous philosopher once described it, about which a mythology has been created. Rather than pursue the American Dream, he insists that the American Dream has arbitrary limits, limits Obama would set for the rest of us — today it's $250,000 for businesses and even less for individuals. If the individual dares to succeed beyond the limits set by Obama, he is punished for he's now officially "rich." The value of his physical and intellectual labor must be confiscated in greater amounts for the good of the proletariat (the middle class). And so it is that the middle class, the birth-child of capitalism, is both celebrated and enslaved — for its own good and the greater good. The "hope" Obama represents, therefore, is not hope at all. It is the misery of his utopianism imposed on the individual. Unlike past Democrat presidential candidates, Obama is a hardened ideologue. He's not interested in playing around the edges. He seeks "fundamental change," i.e., to remake society. And if the Democrats control Congress with super-majorities led by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, he will get much of what he demands. The question is whether enough Americans understand what's at stake in this election and, if they do, whether they care. Is the allure of a charismatic demagogue so strong that the usually sober American people are willing to risk an Obama presidency? After all, it ensnared Adelman, Kmiec, Powell, Fried, and numerous others. And while America will certainly survive, it will do so, in many respects, as a different place.

corner.nationalreview.com/post

"Hate from anti-Semitic, anti-Israel Left,  Jewish kids experience today on college campuses, is so much worse than any worse cases scenario possible discomfort  from  Christian Right."

Any particular examples in mind about the antisemitism Jewish kids experience on college campuses?

By the way, do you post huge chunks of TNR articles over at National Review, to provide some balance?

Just curious.

www.bnaibrith.org/.../campusAnti-Semitism.cfm

On September 20, 2002 Lawrence H. Summers, the president of Harvard University, delivered to the Harvard community a speech deploring the upsurge of antisemitism in many parts of the globe: he specified synagogue bombings, physical assaults on Jews, desecration of Jewish holy places, and (this with special emphasis) denial of the right of "the Jewish state to exist." But his most immediate concern was that "at Harvard and ...universities across the country" faculty-initiated petitions were calling "for the University to single out Israel among all nations as the lone country where it is inappropriate for any part of the university's endowment to be invested."1

www.campus-watch.org/.../1111

standwithuscampus.com

www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/.../PurgeatSFSULeearticle022604.htm

Good Lord that Corner post is idiotic.  A 3% increase in the top tax bracket is going to remake us into a socialist society?  That's what Levin means when he says "If the individual dares to succeed beyond the limits set by Obama, he is punished for he's now officially 'rich.'"  From 1936-1980 the top marginal tax rate was never less than 70%.  Even during most of Reagan's Presidency it was 50%  Apparently we were unknowingly socialist that whole time.

Nusholtz said:   “Jacsondyer:   You;re not suggesting Jacob's bigory is merely a contrary point of view. are you?  Jacob said he was an anti-semite.  Was he lying?”

Nusholtz, there is a tradition among Jews especially religious Jews (when speaking of secular Jews like myself) that takes a dim view of Jews whom they think have left the fold. The language used can be extreme but they can say things that a non Jews can’t say. (Think of Black people using the N word among other Black people, etc.)  

Yes, I don’t think Jacob is an antisemite. He is something worse, though. He is a fanatic. Fanatics are worse than racists because their world view no matter how they try to dress it up originates not in logic or even bad logic but in a passion. You can sometimes cure a run of the mill racist or antisemite by pointing out the error of their thinking. With a fanatic this is rarely the case.

The interesting things about fanatics and they can be interesting psychologically is that they are often motivated by suspicion even of the very people they say they support.  

Hence Jacobs hysterical comments to Marty who because he supports someone Jacob considers the enemy Obama he must hence be wrong about everything else. If support Obama you can’t be an Israel supporter even though Marty Peretz has done more for Israel than a hundred Jacobs.

“All the Obama supporters I know tolerate contrary points of view, except on creationsim in the schools.”

I know lots of Obama supporters who don’t tolerate contrary opinions on other topics as well, not just religion but health care and economic questions.

“I know that some people, like Bush and Palin,  think creationsim is merely a contrary point of view.”

I don’t know about Bush but Palin whose father was a science teacher knows the difference between a scientific theory and a point of view.  

“The idea of intelligent design as an alternative to scientific theory, really drives left thinking people I know bonkers.”

Well, I am not a left wing anything and I don’t consider “intelligent design” a scientific theory at all and hence can’t be an alternative to scientific theories.

jacobt1 said:  “Very few people "think for oneself". Let's just admit that. We all think like people in our demographics.”

Speak for yourself, Jacob.

The logical form  is valid.

It’s neither valid nor is it true.

Prove to me your major premise that “Obama supporters are snobs.”

“I believe that US can influence the outcome in Iraq. If we stay engaged, there is a chance for Iraq to become sort of democratic, sort of pro-American country.”

I don’t know what “sort of means.”

The best we can achieve at this point if we stay there is to put pressure on the government that be to say they are pro-America. After we live all bets are off, though.

Your Bush team mishandled the Iraq policy so badly that not all the king’s men will be able to put it together again.

 “However, I don't want to argue Iraq.”

Of course not.

“I'm just saying that for me it's more important to vote for a candidate with whom I agree about Iraq, than to vote for a candidate who is going to protect me against being " evangelized out of existence".”

There are a number of reasons (as stated above) I’ll be voting for McCain but the Iraq issue is not one of them.

As for the evangelicals I have known a fair number of them when I was in the service and they don’t frighten me at all. I actually consider Huckabee on economic issues closer to the Democrats than to the Republican libertarians.

AlanSP said:

"Any particular examples in mind about the antisemitism Jewish kids experience on college campuses?"

Come Alan don't play stupid.

Jewish students on campus are coming under attack (mostly verbal) by many anti Israel groups of the left as well as Islamic organizations.

if you want examples read what David Horowitz has written on the subject.

Otherwise you can talk to Jewish students on any campus.

Jacobt1

  Obama's right.  We need to get out of Iraq right away and over to Afganistan to catch Bin Laden.

Nusholtz,

Obama  doesn't say that he is going to get out of Iraq right away . Terefore he is wrong.

AlanSP,

"Good Lord that Corner post is idiotic.  A 3% increase in the top tax bracket is going to remake us into a socialist society?"

Barack Obama promises the fundamental change. I'm scared to death, because I believe him. You think that he is just exaggerates

jacksondyer said:

"The best we can achieve at this point if we stay there is to put pressure on the government that be to say they are pro-America. After we live all bets are off, though. "

We haven't left Japan, Germany, South Korea, Kosovo, Bosnia , Kuwait yet. So, why not Iraq?

Japan, Germany, and South Korea are actual countries with functioning governments and we have treaties with them that govern our military presence (e.g. the NATO Status of Forces Agreement) and have done so for many decades.  Bosnia and Kosovo are crisis management situations after civil wars where the countries concerned are formally or virtually under some kind of UN or similar supervision.  We have many basing arrangements throughout the world, or similar treaties for transport logistics (e.g. Shannon airport in Ireland) but, again, these are either in functioning democratic nations or at least in places where where the strategic and cultural elements mesh in some coherent way.  Btw the NATO SOFA also gives the host countries criminal justice systems access to American soldiers who are suspected of crimes on the host countries' territory (anyone want U.S. personnel to be appearing in front of Islamic courts?).  There are also countries from which we have withdrawn military forces and bases (e.g. the Philippines), for various reasons.  The deployment or redeployment or withdrawal of U.S. forces worldwide should not be an ideological gesture but rather the result of evaluative, hard decision-making about America's interests at any given time.  There is no reason to believe that Barack Obama will make any more missteps here than George Bush or John McCain would; in fact, I think he'd make less.

jacksondyer said:

"We haven't left Japan, Germany, South Korea, Kosovo, Bosnia , Kuwait yet. So, why not Iraq?"

you are the master of false comparisons, Jacob.

Good night.

I just saw David Brooks' op ed piece in the NY Times.

It's excellent it describes the American political reality in our country today. It also articulates why while I am voting for McCain I am not as concerned as Jacob is if Obama wins.

"Ceding the Center"

By DAVID BROOKS

www.nytimes.com/.../26brooks.html

Jacobt1 said:

"Poor boy.  If he tried to kill a judge and his children, bomb Pentagon, a night club with American children, he would d be later declared a citizen of the year, became an educational leader in US, and a friend of a  future Presidential candidate."

Poor boy, eh? The guy headed a Nazi group that bombed synagogues. You just show once more that your allegiance goes to those that want top murder Jews. There's very little in you twisted garbage mind - except for a keen desire to murder Jews.

Now go back in your rat-hole, Nazi coward.

jackson, you're to easy on jacobt1.

The man IS an anti-Semite. Just go the Harvard thread and you'll see how he said the economic crisis is the fault of thre Jews - Rubin, Summers, Greenspan. Looking for Jews to blame -when there are non-Jews placed much higher in the responsibility chain -Bush, Cheney, their Treasury secretaries (none Jewish) and much closer in time- is the surest diagnostic sign of an anti-Semitic mind.

He may be born Jewish, but so was Noam Chomsky and other such bastards. But I personally don't think at all that he is a Jew. He is a megalomanic creep. The insinuation that he is Jewish part is just part of his strategy to attack Jews while covering for his anti-Semitism.

jacobt1 is an Ann Coulter-type: demented, aggressive, cowardly and, as always in such shit mixes, anti-Semitic.

"Come Alan don't play stupid.

Jewish students on campus are coming under attack (mostly verbal) by many anti Israel groups of the left as well as Islamic organizations.

if you want examples read what David Horowitz has written on the subject.

Otherwise you can talk to Jewish students on any campus. "

Not quite any campus Jackson.  My own experience was at Penn where a large proportion of the people on the left *are* Jewish (as is about 1/3 of the school).  Not once in 4 years there did I experience any anti-semitism.  Penn's Jewish population is larger than average certainly, but a lot of left-leaning schools have roughly similar situations.  I'll read Horowitz in the morning when I can actually keep my eyes open for an extended period.

ironyroad said:

"Japan, Germany, and South Korea are actual countries with functioning governments"

Yes, they have functioning governments, TODAY. US created functioning governments for them.

sleepyavl said

"The man IS an anti-Semite. Just go the Harvard thread and you'll see how he said the economic crisis is the fault of thre Jews - Rubin, Summers, Greenspan. Looking for Jews to blame -when there are non-Jews placed much higher in the responsibility chain -Bush, Cheney, their Treasury secretaries (none Jewish) and much closer in time- is the surest diagnostic sign of an anti-Semitic mind."

I'm sorry, I forgot to include in the list another Jew,  Ben Bernanke.  

Obama believes that the current global financial crisis is the result of  of actions of few people. If you agree with him, ten Rubin, Summers, Greenspan and Ben Bernanke are such people. I don't agree with Obama. "His  populist appeal  disguises government mandated wealth redistribution as tax cuts for the middle class, falsely blames capitalism for the social policies and government corruption (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) that led to the current turmoil in our financial markets, fuels contempt for commerce and trade by stigmatizing those who run successful small and large businesses, and exploits human imperfection as a justification for a massive expansion of centralized government".  

sleepyavl, I'm  not a  Nazi coward. Marty is. He wrote "The Jews, the Jews, Always the Jews! "

jacobt1 said:

"ironyroad said:

"Japan, Germany, and South Korea are actual countries with functioning governments"

Yes, they have functioning governments, TODAY. US created functioning governments for them."

This is pure crap.

Japan and Germany always had functioning governments. ( Korea was for a long time a colony of Japan)  The US didn't create "functioning governments" there; it administered a pro Western regime after they were defeated.

One of the reasons it was so successful is that each culture always had an important minority that had embraced democratic principles long before the fall of the fascist regimes.

Another reason is the US had the Soviet Union with which to threaten the regimes if they didn't go along with US and Western principles.

None of this applies to Iraq.

As usual, Jacob your answers don't rise above the bumper stickers points you picked up at the National Review website.

You are not only a fanatic you are also an idiot.

“Obama believes that the current global financial crisis is the result of  of actions of few people. If you agree with him, ten Rubin, Summers, Greenspan and Ben Bernanke are such people. I don't agree with Obama. "His  populist appeal  disguises government mandated wealth redistribution as tax cuts for the middle class, falsely blames capitalism for the social policies and government corruption (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) that led to the current turmoil in our financial markets, fuels contempt for commerce and trade by stigmatizing those who run successful small and large businesses, and exploits human imperfection as a justification for a massive expansion of centralized government".  “

Jacob, again, you are offering us a national review view of Obama’s thinking.

I don’t recall his ever having articulated such a simple minded view of the economic crises. His campaign team of economic advisers thinks that the crisis was caused, among other reasons, by lax regulations. This is very similar to the view of the McCain campaign.

If you have evidence to the contrary let's see it.

Your view of Capitalism is as simplistic as your view of history especially Middle Eastern history.

Get this through you thick skull, it will take a couple of generations at least before we can bring democracy to Iraq if it can be done at all. This assuming that it’s done in a systematic way which is something your Bush team has failed to do.

No wonder you love the Bush people they are every bit as stupid and simple minded as you are.

I am still waiting for you to prove you premise that “Obama supporters are snobs.”

Jacobt1

   Obama's right.  The economy peforms best when it is healthy at the bottom.  

   Obama's right.  We need critical alliances to defeat terroism.

   McCain's wrong.  He offers only lower taxes and war to solve our problems.  He thinks like Reagan.  The deficit is big enough to take care of itself.  If McCain were to be elected, we will not be competing in the global market place as other countries take the lead.  

   Jacobt1's wrong.  He thinks all jews are snobs.

1. "The conclusion: Except for black Americans, American Jews will back Barack Obama by the highest percentage in the country."

2. " So much for Jewish conservatism."

3. " So much for Jewish distrust of African Americans. Put that nonsense in the trash."

A few thoughts:

1. Is there a competition and a prize to be won among  minority groups as to which supports Obama most? Them who loves him best?

2. Why can't some Jews choose to be conservative if it suits their current interests without being tagged nazis or ingrates or morons or whatever? Is there some special moral purity and nobility in picking the more "progressive" side ?  Do Jews have to conform to a certain standard, where they belong, or else... what?

3.  Of course there is distrust of African-Americans. Some african-American leaders have a history of antisemitic invective, such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farrakhan and the more recent celebrity, Reverend Wright. These are leaders who despite their explicit contemptuous "'distrust" of Jews, have been embraced and lauded by millions among the African American community. How can Jews not doubt them? Obama, to his credit, distanced himself from these personages, one way or another, but he sure took his time doing so.

So one wonders.  

In HBO more recent popular TV mini-series "Mad Men" there is an episode in which an Attractive Jewish woman asks the leading protagonist Don Draper: Jews know what it feels like to be outside, to look at the feast of life laid out and still feel they cannot sit at the table. I know this feeling. But what makes you feel like an outsider? What is your reason?

If Jews feel they can trust Obama, it's because they may sense this quality about him, this outsiderness which marks him apart from any community.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG interviewed Obama back in May and managed to ask about this in a very acute way:

"JG: Go to the kishke question, the gut question: the idea that if Jews know that you love them, then you can say whatever you want about Israel, but if we don’t know you –- Jim Baker, Zbigniew Brzezinski –- then everything is suspect. There seems to be in some quarters, in Florida and other places, a sense that you don’t feel Jewish worry the way a senator from New York would feel it."

Read his answer, here:

jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/.../obama_on_zionism_and_hamas.php

Nusholtz, you are just recycling slogans the way Jacob does.

A slogan is not an argument.

Jacksondyer

   They are not slogans at all.   They are facts that distinguish Obama from McCain.  A slogan would be something you can't argue with, like "I like Ike"  or "leave no child behind."  For instance, McCain believes in trickle down, that the people at the top should have the money to drive the economy.  Like I said, Obama believes the economy performs best when it is healthy at the bottom.  Besides, arguing with Jacobt1 is like arguing with a crazy person.  He has his own reality.  

jacksondyer,

"Japan and Germany always had functioning governments"

Well, Iraq had the functioning government. I'm not sure, what Obama or you propose.

a. close embassy, evacuate all Americans out of Iraq, declare Iraq as the next Vietnam.

b cut the size of troops in half and go back to pre-surge conditions.

c. continue the current strategy,

d,  Iraq has a stable Democratically elected government. Mission accomplished. American troops are no longer needed.

jackson,

Honest question: why are you wasting so much time on jacob, who is arguably a bigot and a bit off the rails?

And I hope that in a few years, President Obama will help to change your mind. Over the years, we have had a fracas or two but I have always respected your high octane intellect and perspective. As you describe your vote, I understand your reasons and respect them. I just hope that in a few years, you will have good reason to have second thoughts.

As for jacobt, the worm can kiss my ass. At this point in my life, I have no time for fools and knaves. Good luck with your jacobt project.

jacobt1

      McCain's wrong.  No amount of troops will solve the problem if Iraq doesn't solve it.   A timeline for leaving is the only way.  Facts on the ground: staying prolongs the problem.

      Jacobt1's wrong.  All jews are not snobs.

jacksondyer said:

"His campaign team of economic advisers thinks that the crisis was caused, among other reasons, by lax regulations."

What exactly Bush deregulated? Do you know about any [proposed] finance deregulation  or regulation that McCain, Biden and Obama voted differently?  

Nusholtz said:

"Obama believes the economy performs best when it is healthy at the bottom"

The question is how to get there. Obama proposes to follow West Europe  level of taxation,  redistribution and regulations. There are no evidences that that model leads to the best performing economy.

Jacobt1

    McCain's wrong.  McCain says Obama's tax plan is a plan to take money from the rich and give it to the poor.  Obama's plan is to finance government with the most efficiency by collecting from people who are capable of paying.  Obama has said he believes in people having the same opportunities he was given as an underprivileged young man.   McCain who has lived only in the government sector as a military man for 23 years and as a poliltician after that, would not have the vision to see the potential for human advancement, particularly for global competition through education in science and technology.  

   Jacobt1's wrong.  All jews are not snobs.

jacobt1, about Iraq:

you have, as you usually do when you are shown to be wrong about basic facts, changed the topic from the issue of Democratization to the issue of how best to prceed.

In any case,  Iraq does not have a "stable government." That's just a slogan. The government is guaranteed by the presence of American troops.

The question is how long do you propose that we stay there in order to keep "the stable government" from disintegrating?

From my point of view I would say that we can't leave right away but not because of Iraq, it's also and probably mainly because of Iran. Bush made a mess of things and now we have to make sure that Iran doesn't take over Iraq.

This is very different from dreaming of a "democratic Iraq" which we won't see in our life time.

McCain understand that I am not sure the Obama team does, although I may wrong about that.

Thejauntyboulevardier, good question.

Jacob brought up some issues that I thought needed to be addressed. I think I am about done with him as our exchanges have gotten repetitive.

Here is a decent comparison on the each candidate’s position on regulating Wall Street:

www.coxwashington.com/.../ISSUES_REGULATION19_COX.html

“Comparing McCain And Obama On Regulating Wall Street”

By BOB DEANS

Cox News Service

Thursday, September 25, 2008

“WASHINGTON — The Fed's bailout of insurance giant AIG combined this week, combined with the collapse of the venerable Wall Street firm Lehman Brothers, infused the presidential campaign with fresh debate over the purpose and limits of federal regulation.

For two decades, Democratic and Republican administrations alike have eased the federal oversight, supervision and regulation of the financial services industry in reaction to globalization and the emergence of new technologies and markets.

Now, with Americans' stock portfolios plunging amid fears of the deepest global financial crisis since the Great Depression, that trend may have come to an end.

"A wholesale revamping of the entire financial sector is coming, requiring new legislation and regulations," said Donald Straszheim, vice chairman of Roth Capital Partners, a Los Angeles investment firm. "We see this as ugly and contentious."

Hedging its bets, the insurance, real estate and financial services industries have donated $59.8 million to Democratic candidates and $54.5 million to Republicans for this year's election cycle, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.

Banks and securities investment firms have contributed $8.8 million to Republican presidential hopeful Sen. John McCain. The same industries have donated $12 million to his Democratic rival, Sen. Barack Obama, the center found.

Here's how the two candidates say they would use regulation to prevent new financial crises:

OBAMA

Key Positions

— Create a financial market oversight commission to monitor the system and advise the president and Congress on how to prevent new risks from boiling over into a crisis.

— Require banks and other financial institutions that are eligible to borrow from the Federal Reserve to keep higher reserves of cash on hand.

— Investigate rating agencies to guard against potential conflicts of interest.

— Standardize mortgage lending regulations so that the same rules apply to commercial banks and thrift organizations as apply to mortgage brokers.

Record

Introduced 2006 legislation aimed at ending home loans based on fraud, abuse or excessive risk. Has long warned against the risks of financial losses in the billions of dollars as a result of insufficient government oversight of high-risk areas, particularly those involving subprime mortgages and loans that exceed what consumers are able to bear.

In His Own Words

The Bush administration has followed "a philosophy that says even common-sense regulations are unnecessary and unwise. ... What we've seen in the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on this philosophy — a philosophy that has completely failed." — Sept. 17, 2008

MCCAIN

Key Positions

— Strengthen the ability of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and other financial regulatory agencies to protect consumer savings and investments.

— Strengthen disclosure rules to increase transparency of mortgage-backed securities and other complex investment instruments.

— Consolidate and reorganize the Securities Exchange Commission and other federal regulatory agencies to reduce overlapping responsibilities and plug gaps in oversight.

— Reduce the amount of debt and risk that banks and other financial institutions may assume.

Record

Has spoken out against the "excess" of executive pay and severance packages on Wall Street. Voted in 2002 to support legislation aimed at strengthening regulation of the accounting industry following the collapse of energy trader Enron Corp. Told The Wall Street Journal last March, "I am aware of the view that there is a need for government oversight" in financial markets. But, he said, "I am fundamentally a deregulator."

In His Own Words

"This foundation of our economy, the American worker, is strong. But it has been put at risk by the greed and mismanagement of Wall Street and Washington. The top of our economy is broken. We have seen self-interest, greed, irresponsibility and corruption undermine the hard work of the American people. It is time to set things right." — Sept. 17, 2008”

www.coxwashington.com/.../ISSUES_REGULATION19_COX.html

Jhildner not a complete list but a few items that come to mind:

She refused to let Jane Harman become Chairman of the House intelligence committee for personal reasons.

At one point, she indicated she’d support Alcee Hastings for that.

The 228-205 defeat of the first bail out bill reflects badly on her Pelosi failed to assemble a majority vote. Her speech on the floor clearly helped tank the bill

From the perspective of the left, for two years or so she tried and failed to end the war with more troops in Iraq than the day she became Speaker. She talked a hard line, put the blame on Bush, but made sure the money kept flowing out of Congress.

She has an ideologically driven, toxic relationship with Bush at the cost of political compromise that could achieved results.

She refuses to acknowledge the success of the surge and said in an interview not so long ago that some of the success In Iraq  is due to the good will of the Iranians.

" [Pelosi] said in an interview not so long ago that some of the success In Iraq  is due to the good will of the Iranians."

basman:  Actually, that last point raises a very interesing issue.  It seems to me (I'm recalling on the spur of the moment here) that quite a few experienced observers/analysts have concluded from time to time that Iran has played a defensive game in Iraq, not wanting especially to make life easier for us but not wanting a situation of total chaos on their doorstep either.  Whether "good will" is the appropriate term or not, and it seems a bit too rosy, the truth is that to a certain degree, Iranian interests are not directly opposed to ours at every jucture, and we inevitably -- whether you care to admit it or not -- did them a significant favor by taking out their one major neighborhood threat, Saddam Hussein.  Added to that is that the Iraqi government and, lest we forget, the neocons' hero Ahmed Chalabi have had good, even excellent relations with the Iranian leadership,

That said, one should always be careful in saying "Iran," as there are clearly different and competing centers of power in Teheran, with various assets that they can deploy, and they don't necessarily share the exact same perspective, vis-a-vis the U.S. or Iraq or any strategic issue.  To that extent, I don't think Pelosi said anything stupid.  Rather the opposite:  she brought up a key matter than the Bush administration prefers to have obscured or misunderstood.

I think it was comedian Aaron Freeman who said that the mark of a real Jew is that all real Jews have at least one type of Jew that they HATE. And I think it's true. For many Jews, it's Satmar and Neturei Karta, for example. For me, it's American Jews who think they are pro Israel and donate money to every kooky right wing cause in Israel, but could never make Aliyah and live with the consequences of their advocacy.

In that way, I doubt many Jews are really 'self-hating'-- rather, they hate OTHER Jews not of their stripe. So I'm not sure, is Jacobt1 an anti-semite? Or is he simply a Jew? It makes a big difference.

Around 5 years ago, I was taking a walk in downtown LA, and came across a side street with two groups of people screaming at each other from the sidewalks on either side, and cops cordoning off the area. The signs made it clear we had neo-Nazis on one side and Jews on the other---mostly JDL.  I instinctively started to cross the police line and a cop moved into my way, telling me I didnt want to go there. I got upset and almost yelled at him, "there are Nazis and there are Jews over there! I have to go and stand with the other Jews!" and he moved aside. When I got over there, I just stood there.  I wanted to stand there as a testament to their failure. My mom was one of thousands of English Jewish kids evacuated to the countryside during the Blitz. If Hitler had kept his wits about him and kept his focus on England rather than opening up a second front, I doubt I would be here today. So just my existence, my standing across the street, was a big "fuck you" to the Nazis.

I think it was Ben-Gurion who had talked about wanting a place where Jewish cops would arrest Jewish prostitutes. And as I stood there watching these JDL people trading really nasty, crass insults with the Nazis (and a solitary Palestinian), I got teary-eyed. After all, here in a city with hundreds of thousands of Jews, pretty much the ONLY Jews who cared enough to stand up against Nazis were these rude, crazy, JDL folks (including Rubin's widow). But it wasn't ONLY JDL...  I enjoyed watching a small group of Orthodox high school girls sing Israeli folk songs and dance.

So, anyway. I am not clear here, is Jacobt1 coming out as an Anti-Semite? Or is Jacobt1 coming out as a Jew who hates most American Jews? Because if he is an anti-Semite then he's on the other side of the street and I stand against him. But if he's a Jew that despises most Jews, then I'm on the same side of the street, getting all verklempt at his antics, and shuddering at how close the world came to losing such kooky Jews.

leertracy,

I'm not a real Jew, I don't despises Jews.

jacksondyer said:

"This is very different from dreaming of a "democratic Iraq" which we won't see in our life time. "

When South Korea or Taiwan became democratic?  When Mexico became democratic?

Yes, it will take long period of time. So what?

"From my point of view I would say that we can't leave right away"

When South Korea or Taiwan became democratic?  When Mexico became democratic?

Yes, it will take long period of time. So what?

jacksondyer said,

"In His Own Words The Bush administration has followed "a philosophy that says even common-sense regulations are unnecessary and unwise. ... What we've seen in the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on this philosophy — a philosophy that has completely failed." — Sept. 17, 2008"

What is this demagogue talking about? Which common-sense regulations did the Bush administration oppose?

jacobt1 said:   “jacksondyer said:

"This is very different from dreaming of a "democratic Iraq" which we won't see in our life time. "

When South Korea or Taiwan became democratic?  When Mexico became democratic?”

This is my last reply to you, Jacob.

As usual you come up with comparisons that are not applicable.

None of the countries you mentioned became democracies under the gun. The impetus for democratization came from within and not from without.

This is true even of South Korea which because of the threat from the North was ruled by a series of strong men over the objection of most people which periodically revolted. Democracy came to South Korea because of popular demand and not because of US intervention.

Democracy in Arab Muslim countries will be a hard sell. They there is no large scale internal demand for it as there is for Islamization.

You know very little about history and you are just circling the drain.

jacobt1 said:

“jacksondyer said,

"In His Own Words The Bush administration has followed "a philosophy that says even common-sense regulations are unnecessary and unwise. ... What we've seen in the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on this philosophy — a philosophy that has completely failed." — Sept. 17, 2008"

What is this demagogue talking about? Which common-sense regulations did the Bush administration oppose?”

Typical Jacob twaddle. You interject a meaningless phrase like “common-sense regulations” which can mean whatever you make it mean and think you have answered the post’s main points.

You are a twit who doesn’t know much grammar or logic, not history or even how to argue. You hope your fanaticism will carry the day, it won’t.

You are too dumb for words.  

Every comment you make is meaningless.

Take your view that “Obama supporters are snobs:”

Didn’t your mother tell you that snobbery is province of a minority and not a majority?

If more than half of the voters support Obama they can’t be snobs by definition.

You on the other hand have shown yourself to be a fanatical snob.

Now do us all a favor and go back to the National Review web site.

"[a] majority of American Jews are morons and snobs.  I was one of them."

"I'm not a real Jew, I don't despises Jews."

I thought jacob's problems were red-zone syntax failure and a chronic inability to engage in debate without racial or personal invective.  I'm now wondering, given the above statements, if there's not something even odder going on.

And how does someone write this nonsense (as if they didn't understand how to handle the basic past tense in English) at 7:40:

"When South Korea or Taiwan became democratic?  When Mexico became democratic?"

only to manage a completely grammatical sentence at 7:45?

"Which common-sense regulations did the Bush administration oppose?"

ironyroad,

"only to manage a completely grammatical sentence at 7:45?"

Its an goodest  questions. you asked.

Careful, jacob, don't overdo it!

Leertracy, jacobt1 is most definitely a hardcore anti-Semite. He blames the current crisis on Jews. As I explained in other posts on this thread, jacobt1 has gone out of his way to find Jews implicated in the scandal. Meanwhile he has ignored the non-Jews in much higher positions of power (Bush, Cheney, Paulson, O'Neill).

LOOK FOR THE JEW!, IGNORE THE NON-JEW - that is how jacobt1 operates. This framework is the surest mark of an anti-Semite.

Last week Gallup released a poll showing that American Jews support Sen. Obama by a margin of 74 to 22. But if you look at the breakdown at the end, the October results were recorded over a shorter period of time and, more importantly, were the result