"It was a lilly white congregation when it is increasing rare to see that in our society any longer. Virtually no blacks."

Thirty-six blacks out of 2,380 conventioneers, says today's WaPo. That's 1.5%.

"I giver her her due: she is pretty like a cosmetics saleswoman at Macy's."

Are you sure you don't want to remove this sentence?

You are absolutely correct about the double standards of the conservative evangelicals who so easily forgive Bristol for something that would probably lead them to expel their own kid from the house. And now we learn that they are easily swayed by powerful speakers! Is hypocrisy mandatory for these people?

I am, frankly, a tad dumfounded by Peretz's posting, on several points.

First, his characterization of Obama's economic policies (which he styles as "quite modest").  I would characterize those policies as more like those of Gore and Kerry (whom, as I recall, lost elections) and  less like those of Clinton (who won elections).  What less modest policies would Peretz favor?

Second, his characterization of the convention attendees as "lilly white".  Of course the crowd had fewer white faces; what would we expect from a demographic group that has voted 80-90% Democratic for seven decades?

That is their right.  But the African-American churches have an important traditional cultural component; that throws off some conservatives.  They are visibly present in St. Paul; albeit in smaller numbers. That said, the attendees look more like each other to this observer than they did 50+ years ago.

Finally, the "ugly remarks".  Politics never was beanbag.  It has gotten progressively less pleasant as ideological bases have seized operational control of the two parties.  What sound like straightforward fact to the liberal Democratic partisan sounds like a slur to the conservative Republican stalwart, and vice versa.  The Kennedy-Nixon debates of nearly half a century ago looked to this observer like kumbaya compared to the current political dialogue.  Does Peretz see it differently?  I guess so.

"If Bristol were Joe Biden's daughter or, worse..."

As Laurence Sterne said in Tristram Shandy, "a pox on your ifs.

If, is not an argument nor is it a statement of fact.

Say something real about your candidate, Marty, in your next post.

peretz...

Bingo. I am so heartened that you too saw that ivory aged, angry crowd for what it was.

Why is the obvious so unmentionable?  The GOP is the white party. Look at that crowd!

Anyhow, though the comments about the possibility of a Biden or Obama love child may be rough, you nailed it. I cannot IMAGINE what these folks would say if one of Barack's daughter's turned up pregnant in high school. My minds shudders at the possibilities...

jackson, it's very real. I don't like Peretz, but he's right here. Those shitty Republicans ufck the minorities because they have tons of unwed teenage unwed mothers. Where's Bill Cosby now to be approved of reprimanding the males for impregnating the young females and then not marrying them?

Where are the fucking Republicans to scold the parents for mis-educating their children? No no no, teenage mothers are only miseducated if they're poor and black or Hispanic. If they're white and rich, like Palin, let's celebrate.

Homosexuality is bad. Oh sorry, when it comes to Cheney's daughter, that's ok. And so on. It shouldn't be called the Republican party, but rather the party of Fucking Bastards, of those who get for themselves all the rights and refuse to give all others the very same rights.

It should also be called the party of Thieves and Idiots. Every time there is a Republican president, the US ends up with massive deficits. Look at Reagan, their hero, or at W. Bush - a man who, but for his being daddy's boy, would hardly be fit to run a neighborhood bodega.

Being a Republican means to steal, to screw all others and to dislike government - because your party is bad at it.

Gee whiz, sleepy.  I find myself agreeing with just about every word in your post.  Thieves and Idiots sums it up nicely.

sleepy....

the stars must be aligned...you, me, and peretz in common agreement.

Mark the tnr calendar...

later amigo...

Great post Sleepy.

Give Mssr. Peretz his due for having such a clear eye.

Marty,

It was an ugly three days but McCain's speech tonight served as a slight redemption. Not of the crowd, which was noticeably out of tune with the speech and seemed completely underwhelmed. But as a reminder that conservatism used to stand for something outside of glib self-interest, skin-deep family values, and trite symbolism. His recollections of his POW experience, which have so often been used as a demonstration of his superhero macho Rambo ("he never gave them info and they tortured him") was tonight used as an example of humility, our interdependence on one another. This wasn't the liberterian, individualist, angry conservatism of recent years but the conservatism of responsibility, sacrifice, and stoicism. And the crowd didn't quite know what to make of it.

And did anyone else notice that when the cameras cut to a person of color, it had usually been seen before? I saw that guy with the priest-collar several times over the past few days. One is reminded of Colbert.

Sleepyavl, what you said may be true, however, my point is the way Peretz framed his argument with “an imagine what if” which has become the favorite way of both sides to attack each other.

Yea, most people on the convention floor were white but that doesn’t make them all racists, though they be every bit as hypocritical as you think they are.

I will also say that McCain is a much better man than his supporters. I would also guess that he didn’t say everything that he wanted to say for fear that the Republican weren’t ready to hear it.

His call for service for example was exemplary. I read elsewhere that this was the first time in a generation any candidate had called on people to join the military. I also don’t remember when any candidate asked people to become teachers.

Finally, I have a feeling that he is trying to move the party away from Reagan’s ideology but couldn’t say so openly.

This is going to be an interesting election.

CharlesFosterKane said: "It was an ugly three days but McCain's speech tonight served as a slight redemption. Not of the crowd, which was noticeably out of tune with the speech and seemed completely underwhelmed. But as a reminder that conservatism used to stand for something outside of glib self-interest, skin-deep family values, and trite symbolism. His recollections of his POW experience, which have so often been used as a demonstration of his superhero macho Rambo ("he never gave them info and they tortured him") was tonight used as an example of humility, our interdependence on one another. This wasn't the liberterian, individualist, angry conservatism of recent years but the conservatism of responsibility, sacrifice, and stoicism. And the crowd didn't quite know what to make of it."

Very well put, I too was touched by his revelation that he was broken and that it taught him humility.  

"The uglier the remark the uglier the smile on Rudy's face."

Somehow Marty forgot about uglyy remarks about McCain's shoes

Marty forgot that his former employee, a despicable human being,  forced Palins to disclose information about their daughter. Marty also forgot, that Obama's children were shown to public over and over again and even had a speaking role in Denver.

BTW, finally Obama had to concede

"Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said Thursday that the escalation of U.S. troops in Iraq, which he had opposed, has succeeded in reducing violence "beyond our wildest dreams.""

Would Obama dead ender concede this too or they will continue to argue Obama's last week talking points?

I do appreciate the candor and truth to sleepy's remarks. I'm pleased to see that he doesn't say only things that are designed to antagonize others.

I didn't watch the convention and don't know whether this was an ugly crowd. But I do know this is an ugly post that will do more harm to its author than to its subject. Another low point in the annals of the Spine.

Also: Lilly is a drug company, not to be confused with the flower.

Mr. Peretz,

An excellent piece of writing. Thank you.

Re the drowsy one, a Tourette's sufferer is still a Tourette's sufferer, even if his spluttering attaches on occasion to one's enemies.

"This is a rotten crowd"

I second that Marty.  The filthy despicable brutes.

I watched about 70% of the convention coverage, switching between CNN, MSNBC and C-SPAN, with a few stops elsewhere, and I was specifically counting black folks.  I think I saw about 12 to 15 black males, and only about seven black females, including an independent conservative African-American blogger Shamara (Shay) Riley that I've followed for years, who was invited to the Republican convention and received floor credentials. I saw Shay, three or four times at least. I tried to tell her that they're just using her, but the bastards have seduced this shy Chicagoan with all the bright lights, pomp and circumstance.  I also saw a number of Asian people on the floor, but I don't recall any Hispanics specifically. But mostly it was old white ladies, and angry white men. They actually had buttons on which they were showing off, one read "Angry Redneck".

Another black conservative that I'm familiar with Craig Bardo, according to what he wrote, refused an offer to sit behind John McCain on the campaign trail, claiming he didn't want to be a racial prop for a Republican Party he didn't really believe in.  He's a hard-core conservative, and is thrilled with the Sarah Palin pick, or so he says.

It's funny these black conservatives have been all over Obama since before Iowa, but I've been reading them for several years, and even though they talk smack about Barack all the time, I just know they're going to vote for him.  When I put the question to them, none of them are willing to go on the record saying they won't vote for the first African-American to really have a chance at the presidency. From what I've observed, many of these folks are in very conflicted places, some of them struggling with long-standing Black nationalistic impulses from their youth. I think there is a serious reverse Bradley effect in the works out there, a lot of people perhaps saying that they are going to vote for John McCain, but I believe there common sense is going to overwhelm their reservations at the moment of truth.

Another staunch conservative African-American blogger asked the question, "How can a Black man, go hard core against a white woman?"  And he was speaking specifically to what we saw last night with Palin setting herself in direct opposition to Barack Obama.  This is an old game down South, pitting the pure idealized white woman against the big Black Buck boogie man. Everyone's seen To Kill a Mockingbird.  A deviously subtle way of playing the race card that we may see playing itself out in the coming days.  You know the Republicans won't be able to resist racial politics, given that they have so few alternatives, and such things are in their nature.

I was surprised and encouraged to see Bridget McCain on the stage this evening, though apparently she's been actively appearing on PBS for the campaign, I was told.

Brutes!  Great word Aaron.

Speaking of Guiliani, imagine having that rat fuc*er (hat tip jaunty on his rare use of a fine epitaph) screeching at you daily like that.  We were an army of picthfork carrying city folk bythe time that man finally left office with that lovely new wife of his.  It was him or us.

(shiver)  Bless you Joe Biden.

It was astute of Marty to call out the ugliness of the crowd itself - thousands of  foaming, ragefull white people in funny hats with a few cocktails in them is a hideous site, idn't it?

I disagree with the claim that if a daughter of Barack Obama or Joe Biden were pregnant in high school, conservatives would call her a tramp. There is no evience or any reason to believe that it is true.

Commentators have be saying for days that the evangelical right's supposed wish to call unmarriewd pregnant girls whores is simply suppressed by their desire to elect anti-abortion officials.  Anyone who has spent much time with the broad mainstream of conservative, non-denominational evangelicals knows that that is not true.

If a daughter of Barack Obama were in the same position as Bristol Palin, no serious person on the right would call her a tramp or a slut.  There would be some cringe-inducing statements like "well at least SHE doesn't view a child as a punishment" but that would be it.

In the free-republic fever swamps of the internet you would probably find such insults.  But the fever swamps of the internet are always in such a state.  With Bristol Palin, Obama and other Democrats didn't stoop to insults or insinuations and were classy about it, while some bloggers went berserk.  The same would be true were the situation reversed.

Good point ryan, perhaps those exact words wouldnt be used.

But come on, equally vile things would. Their African American ethnicity and the 1960's would be used as cudgels, no question.

Mr Peretz

You're a bit overboard on the cosmetics saleswoman crack, but otherwise I think you have hit the head of the nail.  What a nasty, hypocritical bunch these Republicans are.  And how narrow-minded.  I have watched as much as I could bear of this event in Minnesota, and I was appalled to note how the audience reacted to just a few themes, and cared not at all for anything else.  They get all pumped up at the idea of war, they enjoy mocking the patriotism and elitism of Democrats (and get all teary extolling the heroic patriotism of their own), and they would have cheered themselves silly if only someone would have begun to drill for oil behind the speaker's podium.  Perhaps it is unfair, but I suspect they would also have liked a chance to hoot and holler for rounding up illegal aliens, teaching creationism in schools, criminalizing contraception and abortion, and restricting the rights of homosexuals. Gathered together in one place, the GOP are not a pretty sight.

Neil

"Perhaps it is unfair, but I suspect they would also have liked a chance to hoot and holler for rounding up illegal aliens, teaching creationism in schools, criminalizing contraception and abortion, and restricting the rights of homosexuals. Gathered together in one place, the GOP are not a pretty sight."

Your attack is unfair. Virtually no culture war issues were raised; mostly security, experience and economic issues. This is an election. These issues are relevent. McCain has not been shrill. Nor has Obama. I am surrounded by so-called "swilly people", and they sound very much like McCain, not like the culture war caricatures presented here by people who consider themselves civil. Fotunately, neither candidate wishes to perpetuate this sort of divisiveness.

McCain has shown the ability to reach across the aisle and his speech last night tells me that he will take on his own party in that regard. Obama seems also to wish to govern that way also. I hope either candidate will disappoint the culture warriors on their pary if he is elected.  

r-ennis

You're kidding right?  

Four years ago, these people wanted a constitutional amendment to stop gay folks from getting married.  And earlier this year, before the economy tanked, all I heard about was immigration -- McCain had to renounce a liberal immigration bill that he had sponsored, and Hillary's campaign almost collapsed when she suggested drivers licenses might be a good idea.  Abortion is still a hot issue - why else did McCain pass over Lieberman for Palin?

I will grant that many Republicans are more moderate (like yourself) than those at the convention -- but I was talking about the convention crowd.  

As for McCain reaching across the aisle, I think the convention made clear that McCain's reach is limited by more than his years in the Hanoi Hilton.  Every speech given at the convention was approved, line by line, by McCain's staff.  We heard Giuliani, Palin, and the rest.  McCain is quite happy to immerse himself in all the ugliness of the culture war, as long as he can get Lindsey Graham and other surrogates to do the actual mudslinging.

After 9/11, we had a good look at what Republicans mean by "bi-partisanship", and "reaching across the aisle".   I think it's time to see if Obama and the Democrats can do it better.

Neil  

r-ennis - you're closing your eyes to the reality of what your party is.  

There is only one reason Palin was picked and that was because of her extremely far right stand on divisive social issues.  John McCain was forced to pick her by the Christian right - the people who own the power structure of your party.  I know not all Republicans are fire breathing hate mongers, but you're the one letting the firebreathers define you, not us.

If moderates want to change the reality of the party, they should get out there and take the party back.  Denying reality is not a strategy for that.

Mr. Peretz, in order to  understand better what's been happening in America in these last 8 years (what made "these people" so strong) a great help would be Emilio Gentile's "God's Democracy: American Religion after September 11" (Religion, Politics, and Public Life Under the auspices of the Leonard E. Greenberg Center for the ... Public Life, Trinity College, Hartford, CT).

A brilliant analysis, better than any made by any American so far.

PS: You should refrain yourself from classist comments such as the one on the cosmetics saleswoman similarities. Not only are they unamerican and distasteful, they are also counter-productive. Assuming that your objective when writing in a public forum is not exactly to be funny to your friends at the Faculty but to exercise some sort of responsible citizenship...

Dream on, Marty.

The audience for your candidate has more black faces because your candidate panders to the black political class by promising to employ them in exchange for their getting out votes on his behalf. That's the way it is and always has been in the Democrat party since the 1960s. In the meantime, schools for black people are atrocious across the nation, the unemployment rate for blacks is more than twice that of whites, the rate at which they are imprisoned is three times that of whites, and twice the number of young men were killed in Barack Obama's home district last month than soldiers killed in Iraq. All on the "watch" of the Democratic Party. Congrats -- looks like blacks are making out like bandits in your party, Marty.

But sure, keep on shilling for the party responsible for the ignorance, impoverishment and death of blacks. Keep on advocating that blacks vote 90% for the Democrats who have done so well by them.

Republicans are proud of Bristol Palin and her parents because they chose to bring two children in the world rather than have them sucked into a sink, as would be the choice of virtually 100% of the women in your world, Marty, in the same circumstances.

But please, don't stop with your hatred, your condescension, your misogyny, your racism, your arrogance and your vicious character assassination, Marty. Because that more than anything else is what drives normal Americans who do not hate, condescend, vote based on the color of a candidate's skin, hate women or think it's okay to tell damnable lies about others into the arms of the Republican Party.

You make me sick and I will be out here continuing to REVEL in the success of Mrs. Palin and also to REVEL in the continued failure of the publication you bought with your wife's money.

The following is to be sung to the tune of Dylan's "Lay Lady Lay":

Drill, baby, drill. Drill across my great North Slope.

Swill, baby, swill. Feed at my trough a little while.

The fox and caribou, the moose and deer

Shall be reborn outside the ecosphere.

Fill, baby, fill. Turn on that sweet crude flow.

We'll melt the polar ice before we're done --

Less glare when we behold the midnight sun.

Drill, baby, drill. Drill across my great North Slope.

I'm glad Marty brought up the shameful pimping of the Down's baby and I thought he was dead-on with his cosmetics saleswoman comment.  Not to mention, his broadside against the conventioneers was also right on the mark...a bunch of hateful, lily-white, fire-breathers.  

God save us from these people, indeed.

Great post Mr. Peretz.

I'm no oracle or anything.  I've spent over 30 years in politics and government and having worked a number of state conventions for various candidates, I avoid them at all costs--either viewing or participating--at this point in my career.  I'm sure my wife would be spending the death benefit on my insurance policy this afternoon if I'd watched either the Guiliani or Palin speech.  I have to admit that I did catch a bit of McCain's speech and was underwhelmed, but then again, I'm solid left-of-center so that's to be expected.

Marty, good point on the anger clearly present amongst the Republicans these days.  They seem to declare everything from off-shore drilling to Terry Schiavo to being the moral equivalent of war.  If Dems could ever get that riled up about the patent unfairness of the Bush tax cuts and the rising inequality in our nation, it would surely help the cause.

And Palin is there for basically one reason:  keep stoking the anger.  I respect McCain at a level.  His prisoner of war experience makes for a compelling story, although I don't think it qualifies him to be President.  At the risk of sounding cynical (and I feel qualified to comment on this because it's the part of the McCain speech I did actually hear), his story, as told last night, sounded like the George H.W,  Bush's recounting of being shot down during the war and thinking about the separation of church and state while waiting to be rescued.

But Palin is there to rally the "South Park Conservatives" who believe they have a constitutional right to an exurban house on a 2-acre lot with more garage stalls (filled, of course) than bedrooms and then come running to the government to save their butts when the bank comes to collect.  There's this odd mix of economic libertarianism and Aquinian (what is the adjective for the thought of Thomas Aquinas) natural law that pervades a large segment of the Republican party today.  We've seen it here in Minnesota big-time with the Minnesota Family Council and its education off-shoot Ed Watch where current Minnesota 6th District Congresswoman Michelle Bachman cut her teeth before being elected to the State Legislature.  Palin gives every indication that she is cut from the same cloth.

It should be interesting.  Both sides are trying to run a campaign based on the future when the present is pretty rotten.  The key will be which side can elevate the debate and palliate the pain (both perceived and real) at the same time.

Actually, I am a lapsed Democrat, not a Republican. I was a vocal early supporter of Clinton and have never voted yet for a Republican president, since first voting for Kennedy in 1960. The Clinton wing of the party has been eclipsed. Obama won the nomination by demonizing it in favor of the far left. In 1994 when Gingrich declared his "Contract with America" I also railed against the culture wars being talked about here.

As a private sector professional, I am surrounded mostly by country club Republicans, some of whom I admire greatly, some not so much. During the Gingrich years and later, we argued, mostly civilly, sometimes not so much. Many see the Democrats through a culure war prism also, and consider their views extreme and would compromise somewhere in the middle. For example, I believe that there is little opposition to civil unions for same sex couples, but calling it a marriage goes too far for most of them. The same holds true for abortions. Most would accept first trimester abortions but would restrict them beyond that point and condemn third trimester abortions. They believe sex education is fine, but draw the line at schools handing out condoms. The left points to the shrillness of the most exteme right wing culture warriors, but ignores its own.

The Democrats and I have also diverged on policy issues. I consider their energy and environmental agenda, led by Gore, to be extreme and counter productive. His proposal for windfall profit tax is also extreme, in my opinion. A means test for Social Security was proposed here. I am extremely opposed to that.

On these issues and on foreign policy, the Democrats and I have diverged views so to a very great extent. I agree that it was largely caused by reaction to Gingrich in the 90's and Bush since then. But with the MoveOn wing of the party that now steering the ship, I believe that the cure is worse than the disease.  

I dissent.

This is a superficial post that nods to iconography and slippery cultural generalization and has nothing substantial to say, as well as being marred by typically bad logic and  profound snobbery and elitist inhumanity.

There can be no disputing certain assertions: the convention audience was predominately white, Obama is no radical—my own hunch is that he will be a third way type liberal in the mould of Bill Clinton and Blair, which is ok by me.

But wherein lay the malignancy? How does the “crowd”—what crowd: the convention goers; the coterie of big wigs speaking; all of the above?—come to be “rotten”—an awful word for a broad swath of in the well meaning people, who love their country from their perspective, granted others' profound disagreements with them?

Answer 1. …It was a lilly white congregation when it is increasing rare to see that in our society any longer. Virtually no blacks. It didn't have many Hispanics either. Nor, for that matter, did I notice many Asian Americans. The assembly was in a trance about a politics there never was in America….

What does lack of diversity have to do with “rotteness”? Where is malignancy bound up with the failure to succeed at embracing diversity? Nowhere, I’d suggest. After all, this is the party that stands against racial affirmative action on the theory that skin colour ought not be a substitute for merit, that seeks to eschew identity politics. An important question for Obama is whether he has the stones to move from race to socio economic status as the touchstone for affirmative action.

Answer 2. …If Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi had been decked out like soccer mom Sarah last night the G.O.P. would have called them tramps. Why, a hem two inches below the knee! So risque! I giver her her due: she is pretty like a cosmetics saleswoman at Macy's…

The elitist spittle drooling over these comments is vomit is vomit-inducing.

Answer 3(a) Let's face the truth: If Bristol were Joe Biden's daughter or, worse yet, Barcak Obama's, the epithet "slut" would be on everyone's tongue in St. Paul. But since she is Palin's daughter she has been treated as if she were a saint, maybe Mother Theresa incarnate. But, of course, Mother Theresa wouldn't have had a child. Now, this pregnancy of an unmarried daughter could have happened to any of us, and it probably has to many of us. We would be accused of sexually loose morals and of not bringing up our daughters in the fear of both God and ourselves. Sex before marriage, a shame and a scandal…. Still, the public celebration of a private happening repels. This premature open baptism may actually ruin all three of their lives…

I do not know how Peretz can shape his mouth to say these words. It was not the Republican intention to make an issue of the daughter’s pregnancy. They would have preferred to take a pass on the whole issue. I can do no better that quote even more words from Peretz’s friend, the execrable Andrew Sullivan:

So that explains the wedding ring I spotted. From the Palin family:

..."We have been blessed with five wonderful children who we love with all our heart and mean everything to us. Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents.

As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support. "Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family. We ask the media to respect our daughter and Levi's privacy as has always been the tradition of children of candidates."

Now all we need is confirmation from the obstetrician who delivered Sarah's baby, Trig"...

As Jacksondyer noted that “if” gives Peretz ostensible license to speculate. And note the his audacious chutzpah in positing his speculation as oracular. “Let’s face the truth”, he says.

We don’t what the answers to his “if” are, and probably better it would be here not to talk about what isn’t known, let alone have the temerity to parade what is unknown as truth. My observation is that the mainstream treatment of this teen age pregnancy is that it is a “problem/challenge” not uncommon to many, many families. I have not sensed any wide spread canonization of Palin’s daughter.

The Palins are handling the issue as they choose and only went public when idiots and sycophants like Sullivan following the lead of Kos forced the issue public. Peretz’s speculations are just that; he has the chronology of  the private to public arc backwards; and his account of this teenager’s sainthood is just plain misconceived.

Answer 3(b) …Is there nothing private anymore? Why was the softly adorable five-month old Down's Syndrome baby also presented for hours on hours to the television audience, passed from Cindy McCain to anyone near and then back to Cindy?

This is not really about politics. It is about culture, private morals and honesty. They have turned the tables on us: pretending tolerance but being as phobic as it takes to win an election. Yes, please God, do bless America and rescue us from these swilly people…

This is an incredible statement on reflection, worse than spitting on tarted up saleswomen. It’s the cherry on the top, the crescendo, of Peretz’s privacy plea. But it turns out to be the apotheosis of his elitism and of his refusal to see  children with special needs as fully human.

Why do all politicians parade their families in these contests? In fact, the family story, the “compelling personal narrative”, the spouse, the parents, the arc of arrival at the nomination, for good and for ill, are staples of your country’s politics, particularly presidential politics, where “connecting” with the electorate is near to being a necessary condition for success—which is why, amongst other reasons, Bush 43 and Clinton won twice and Kerry and Gore—both at this level political stiffs—did not do better than they did or, put another way,  did not do as well as they should have. So there may be issues about the craft of the political staging of families, but staged they are, and for maximum political effect, and by Democrats and Republicans alike.

If I what I say is a correct predicate, then on what basis can Peretz complain about Palin referring to her baby, introducing her, showing her, or Cindy McCain holding her, or her going up on stage—as did the whole Biden clan—or the little girl patting the baby’s hair with her own saliva. The Democrats did nothing different in principle, albeit with different staging and emphases. So really the irresistible inference is that the baby should have been hidden, is not fully human, that to have a special needs baby at a convention is objectionable, whereas to have a non special needs baby is not, because the former is a freak of some kind., somebody less than human.

I say that that is what Peretz is saying. And he calls “these people” “swilly”, pigs, not to put too fine a point on it.  Peretz, a first order, self satisfied, elitist prig, needs to pay a more attention to his own snout, trough, oinking.

There are3 kinds of Republicans.  Economic Republicans (see r-ennis above), national security Republicans (yours truly), and social conservative Republicans.  I (and I suspect ennis) am uncomfortable with the socials, but as ennis points out, there is room for compromise on many social issues, and moderates of both parties should stand together and make it happen.

Alas, it's a pipe dream.  Neither party will face down the loons on its wing.  Pity, because the current political class is an abject failure, on nearly every issue.

I'll vote for McCain, and hope that he reins in the right-wing crazies, as he really doesn't care much about the social hot buttons.

Sorry for at least one error I just spotted: the baby is a her not a her.

"Let's face the truth: If Bristol were Joe Biden's daughter or, worse yet, Barcak Obama's, the epithet "slut" would be on everyone's tongue in St. Paul."

Oh how quickly everyone forgets!!!  Come on guys, I expect better of you all.  Doesn't anyone remember Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown?  Just another perfect encapsulation of the utter rank hypocrisy of those Republicans in that convention hall.  Those same people who are now adulating Bristol Palin for "doing the right thing" were all about promulgating the idea that a wealthy unmarried ficitional character who decided not to abort after an accidental pregnancy and to bring up the baby on her own was helping to bring about the destruction of our society's moral values.  Republican perfidy has absolutely no limits.  

basman - "After all, this is the party that stands against racial affirmative action on the theory that skin colour ought not be a substitute for merit, that seeks to eschew identity politics."

Too bad the same does not apply to gender, huh?  Or can you argue with a straight face that Palin's selection was an eschewing of identity politics?  Republican hypocrisy strikes again.

That is a he not a her. I'm a fab spellller and tiper.

Palin's daughter at the convention is disturbing on a number of levels

Admittedly, it is a difficult situation.  I don't think the young woman, or beau should be stigmatized – and I admire their decision to get married.  n.  But Ihe situation in toto should not  be celebrated And the convention came close to doing just that, with Levi front and center. This is a form of defining deviancy down, to quote Moniyhan

And yes, pregnancy out of wedlock as a teenager is a form of deviancy - or at least should be . My church deals with lots of children who are teenage parents. And most of them are in difficult straits –poverty, temporary homelessness,  and other stress. Teenage pregancy precludes the majority of thesee young mothers  from accumulating the necessary financial and social capital (education, experience,  etc.) from becoming a success in life. They are more likely to wind up as wards of the state, to work at  dead end jobs. They fail to develop themselves fully, and not surprisingly, many of their children wind up  on the margins of society as well.  

It is one of these things – like alcohol and drug abuse – that acts as deadweight to achieving social stability

I was encouraged by Barack’s speech before the Black community this summer about stemming the tide of fatherless children. He was pushing back at this phenomena. The  spectacle at the Republican convention, represents the opposite

Not good

The snarky comments by the press about pantsuits, hemlines, cosmetic counter saleswomen, etc. are growing old and really reveal a level of sexism that irritates many women voters.

This is pretty pathetic.  Peretz used to be a voice of reason on TNR for a conservative like me.  I read TNR because it wasn't afraid to feature writers with a conservative and liberal slant.  Now, he's gone off his rocker and is joining the ranks of people like Andrew Sullivan.  For some bizarre reason, his man-crush on Obama is done warping his mind.  Who is this guy, the pied piper? Am I immune only cause I read his speeches for content and not listen to his delivery of them???

woland

Last I checked, Republicans didn't want Murphy Brown to abort.  They were appalled that Murphy Brown would freely choose to have a child out of wedlock.  Bristol Palin did not freely choose to be pregnant.

When the hell have Republicans denounced the children of the Democratic opposition? Chelsea Clinton is ugly as sin and got a job (not to mention into Stanford) as a result of her father's connections.  Aside from the few talk show hosts, there was no mention of any of that from Republican politicians.

At least Republican politicians in office are largely able to keep their pants on - (Edwards, Clinton)

r-ennis if you believe that the moveon.org part of the party has any control whatsoever over Obama you haven't been paying attention.  That indeed you haven't been paying attention is visibly demonstrated by your mentioning of civil unions rather than marriage which is exactly what Obama supports.  Obama is not against the death penalty and he believes that the second amendment guarantees an individual's right to gun ownership although he draws the line where this right ends in a different place than McCain or the NRA.

But if you and others want to ignore the truth about just how moderate Obama really is, then feel free to ignore the facts.  Nothing can dissaude those who choose not to hear.

woland

Republican hypocrisy strikes again.

Nah, we're the greatest threat to this country ever.  Worse than Iran, Russia, or Osama bin Laden.  Look upon us and tremble.

Hanson wrote:

"When we consider, in contrast, the latticed background of careers of successful contemporary female role-model politicians, such as a Diane Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, Mary Landrieu, or Hillary Clinton — or pundits like Sally Quinn, Eleanor Clift, Andrea Mitchell, Campbell Brown, Gail Collins (the list is depressingly endless, in which marriage or lineage provides either the necessary capital, contacts, or insider influence — or sometimes all three) — then surely, whatever one’s politics, there should be some concession that what outsider Palin has accomplished, given where she began, is nothing short of remarkable.

In short, Sarah Palin is the emblem of what feminism was supposed to be all about: an unafraid, independent, audacious woman, who soared on her own merits without the aid of a patriarchal jumpstart, high-brow matrimonial tutelage and capital, and old-boy liaisons and networking.

Instead this entire sorry episode of personal invective against, and jealousy toward, Sarah Palin is surreal. Given the rising backlash, Palin Derangement Syndrome may prove to be the one thing, fairly or not, that sinks Barack Obama."

tembrach said:

" was encouraged by Barack’s speech before the Black community this summer about stemming the tide of fatherless children. He was pushing back at this phenomena. The  spectacle at the Republican convention, represents the opposite"

Not at all. This child is not going to be a 'fatherless" child

In reply to woland, Obama was the MoveOn candidate during the primaries and he demonized the Clinton years. That is a fact and that is how he became the nominee. Since then, thankfully,  he has moved to the center.

I have been paying attention, thank you very much. To quote from an earlier post of mine. "I am surrounded by so-called "swilly people", and they sound very much like McCain, not like the culture war caricatures presented here by people who consider themselves civil. Fortunately, neither candidate wishes to perpetuate this sort of divisiveness."

My problems with Obama are not his positions on culture war issues discussed here. I brought that up to point out that the left also has its culture war crazies. They are his proposed environmental, energy and economic plans. Also, like Butchie B, I am suspicious of his national security credentials. On all of these issues, Obama is influenced strongly by MoveOn, making it impossible for me to support him.

jw12672, Bristol Palin may have not chosen to get pregnant, but if she was having intercourse in which neither party was practicing birth control, did she not believe that this could happen.  Abstinence requires abstaining from intercourse, which unfortunately in Bristol's case requires a sustaining of thinking.

jacobt1, although I disagree with most of Palin's positions, I do agree that she has accomplished much without starting from an elevated platform and that is, at some level (being a man, I wouldn't really know) that is a victory for feminism.  Whether or not it is more a victory for the non-traditional campaign and an indicator of how issues came together in her ascent is up for debate.  

Again, as I mentioned in my earlier post, check out the career Minnesota 6th District Congresswoman Michelle Bachman.  She started out about 20 years ago railing against the national School-to-Work initiative and some related education policies in Minnesota.  She did this by going to church basements, PTAs, and other community groups.  After an unsuccessful school board run, she was elected to the state legislature, made a name for herself by railing against gay marriage and promoting a whole host of Eagle Forum-esque types of policies.  Now she is in Congress.  

I can't say Palin did the same thing, but from a distance, it appears that the means may have been similar.  Remember, though, that Alaska is a grand total of 670,000 people (just math, not an indictment on small states) and that she defeated a scandal-ridden incumbent Republican in a state where Republicans usually win with ease, so winning a primary, where turnouts are usually lower (I would need to check the numbers in Palin's case to make certain I am not talking out of my rear orifice) insured election.

I'm from Minnesota and in 1998, we elected Jesse Ventura governor.  I have nothing against Ventura except that I thought he really screwed up a chance to re-fashion politics in Minnesota by resorting to petty invective and my point here is that sometimes the mercurial happens.  Palin worked hard to get into a position where the lucky stroke went in her direction--as did Ventura--and sometimes it's more about the zeitgeist than it is about the person.

At any rate, she's formidable.  That being said, she has a ton of policy positions that I believe are out of step with the American mainstream where she could make the Republican ticket vulnerable.  Democrats, formally and otherwise, would be better served steering away from her family and toward the substance of her philosophy.

I second what jacobtl said

We have to keep our emotions towards Palin under control.  Her sarcasm and contempt will eventually get the best of her, and will alienated the electorate.  Just stilck the the issues, profess respect for her accomplishments and use mild humor to defuse her attacks.  No need to become unhinged, just cause she is.  someone needs to act like an adult ;)

Woland, your point is inapposite. MCain picked Palin for oodles of reasons: her story, her youth, her record, his notion that she is in ways a younger him, her ability to eclectrify, her personal qualities that were manifest in her great competence and ease in speaking under pressure and after a torrential media assault, that she is a woman, amongst a s I say a whole host  of reasons. What has this to with affirmative action, and with giving nods to black middle class kids for entry into college just because they are black, as opposed to more or equally academically deserving very poor other kids from a whole spectrum of races and ethnicities?

r-ennis, McCain gave over his entire convention to these brave culture warriors, and picked a far-right book-banner as his Veep to give one of the ugliest, most sneering and condescending speechs in recent politcal memory (at least since Republican 2004).  I don't give a damn what he said last night or what he has done in the past- John McCain has given his principles over to the ugly Republican smear machine, which, entirely bereft of ideas, has become nothing more than an attack machine.  

What basman 8:40am said. Post of the week.

Me, I don't hate Republicans. Neither do I hate Obama supporters. If Obama wins, we'll be allright-- we survived Carter; ditto For McCain.

But I deeply, intensely loathe our nonstop national pissfest over trivia, the war against OtherSide. TNR, especially TNR's exec editor, should be above this

ryanburke 4:23 - "In the free-republic fever swamps of the internet you would probably find such insults.  But the fever swamps of the internet are always in such a state."

Precisely why virtually the only place on the internet that I peruse and post is TNR.com, and why it's so vitally important that TNR avoid being dragged into the fever swamp with commentary like the subject of this thread.

r-ennis, butchie - I see what you are saying about making his name being against the Iraq War.  

But lots of FP honchos and serious biz military mahoffs (as my Dad, a vet, calls them) were too, lets not get precious about this. Objective observers know that he Iraq War does not lend itsef to absolutes.  Patreus said he took the job assuming it was his last in the service.

Obama was never a rigid ideolouge Moveon guy.  I supported the war too.  He supported Afghamistan from the beginning, stlll does.  Won't budge on the surge, I wish he would.  Ok, he I'll admit he does need to do that and it seems that he's moving that way.  

He made it clear in two interviews that the foreign policy model he'll most look to George Bush 1, who was simply brilliant at it, his whole team was.  Scrowcroft and all that.  Look it up.  

Obama is not a kooky lefty on FP.

What T said too. Too for T?

Or T for too?

Obama talked smacked about Clinton exactly twice, right after Clinton called him a talk show host and fair tale.

Clinton had it coming and has been acting like a whining (pardon the expression) pantywaist about it ever since.

This was two alpha dogs on the court.

basman - Ella F does a great version of "Tea for Two" with Count Basie's band. Also on that album are  superb versions of "Honeysuckle Rose", "Sunny Side of the Street" and "Satin Doll."

Wandreycer1  said

"He made it clear in two interviews that the foreign policy model he'll most look to George Bush 1, who was simply brilliant at it, his whole team was.  Scrowcroft and all that.  Look it up.  "

He made it clear  by choosing Biden who opposed George Bush 1.  

"Obama is not a kooky lefty on FP"

He is. His world view is extreme and delusional.

He believes that he has a magic power to unite people of the world. When all people will stand united, all problems will be resolved.

I'm curious , If Clinton won, and McCain would choose Palin what would Marty and other liberal Clinton haters who would support McCain write about Palin?  

a complete digression:

...ellla f...Count Basie...

These names raise  vexed issues which have led me to duels in the sun: for all of her superiority as a jazz singer singer, can ella F. sing the blues? I must answer in the negative. Is the Count one of the most under rated of jazz pianists, sitting at the compact playing opposite end of a spectum ranging at the other end to the (too?) note happy Oscar P. and A. Tatum. I must answer in the affirmative.

But , sadly, these seem issues for another place and another time: maybe November 5th or sometime after that.

Jacob- that would be really awesome if you could provide a quote, or even a hint, of when Obama has said he has a magic power to unite the world.   What he believes is that he can be pretty good at dimplomacy to strengthen ties with estranged allies and reduce threats, rather than exaccerabte them, a la Bush.  No, you may disagree with this, but he wouldn't be the first Presidential candidate who thinks he has something extraordinary to offer.   Not a wierd thing, nor, in and of itself, something bad.   But please, provide us with something that says Obama believes he has magic powers.

What's that?  You can't?

OK.

Please stop writing stuff like that,

Brian

Before Saul Alinsky (that irresponsible community organizer) died, he lamented that middle class people, who feel used or ignored by the powerful, are "too nice" and, consequently, continue to be overlooked and left in a nervous state of social and economic limbo.  I mention this as I read the comments here of some of my nice, liberal colleagues.  It is true that all Republicans are not wild-eyed monsters; and that Marty's "cosmetics saleswoman" remark was less than kind.  But:

Most of us were taught in elementary school that "two wrongs don't make a right."  Hitting back disrupts classroom discipline.  In comtelporary, adult politics, however, hitting back as hard as we are hit is merely "playing by the rules."  Hockey moms in Alaska know well that the rules permit boky checks.

Liberal tut-tutting aside, the reason there weren't a lot of blacks at the convention is because very few blacks want to vote against the first brother with a real shot at the presidency.  Obama will get 95% of the black vote -- the same percentage he would get running against the reincarnation of Abe Lincoln.  

A very natural thing to do.  

Keep flooding this country with non-white immigrants with high birth rates, and I think you'll see whites doing  the same thing -- without apology or subterfuge -- in the decade or so.  

Oops:  "contemporary"  and  "body"

gurdjieff66-

There have never been a lot of blacks at the Republican Convention.  And, natural or not to vote for a "brother", it is also worth noting, idly, that Bush has an approval rating of 2% among African-Americans at this point (a free-fall from the 11% in 2004).  One could probably say, safely, that Hillary would be getting about 90-95% of the black vote as well.  

"Most of us were taught in elementary school that "two wrongs don't make a right."  Hitting back disrupts classroom discipline.  In comtelporary, adult politics, however, hitting back as hard as we are hit is merely "playing by the rules."  Hockey moms in Alaska know well that the rules permit boky checks."

The problem is that, hitting back this way, not only sounds great to "hockey moms" (that made it clear that they get political advantage out of being "looked down" at), but sounds awfull to anyone formed within the populist American tradition. So it can only be a dumb move, even if irresistible to those that love to show that they belong to unchallengeable elites...

That inevitably will sound out of touch and disrespectful to the actual cosmetic saleswomen. And when they actually get to cast their votes (as their husbands, as their sons, as their daughters...), they won't be thinking about health care or "unity of all Americans". They will resentfully think: who are these prigs to "look down" on me? I'm the one that has a son in Iraq... I'm the one struggling to get food on the table and a roof over my head... I'm the one restricting the use of gas...

What is this delusional Ivy leaguer talking about?

In a nutshell: if you're going to hit back, at least be smart and not a faculty moron.

PS: Clinton related. He was the last Democrat that related to actualy related to cosmetic saleswomen. And he won two elections...

What about reports that she was trying to suppress a magazine article alleging that she gave Scott Beauchamp a blow job? Hope somebody gets to the bottom of that one. God knows what else she'll try to ban.

Wow. This thread has taken some amazing turns. Body checks and BJs and birthin' up the base....

No doubt, the Great American KultureKampf Pissfest is a boffo way to juice up your blog traffic, but does TNR really need the traffic that badly? Does this country really need another blog?

boxofrox,

Do you want to know what's at the bottom a blow job?

boneill,

"What he believes is that he can be pretty good at diplomacy to strengthen ties with estranged allies and reduce threats, "

Because of what?  I have heard two justification, He is Black (mad guy from the Atlantic)

Hee is a son of a single mother (mad guy from tnr)

"No, you may disagree with this, but he wouldn't be the first Presidential candidate who thinks he has something extraordinary to offer.  "

I think he would be the first who thinks he has something extraordinary to offer based on so few achievements.

luispc --

You're right.  Any community organizer knows that you don't enter an orthodox Jewish neighborhood eating a ham sandwich.  Republicans offer plenty of targets that working class folks would like to see hit.  No need to demean their work or appearance.  

Just tired of Dems' naive belief that the goal in the beauty contest is to be chosen Miss Congeniality  Sarah Palin, it seems, even lied about that.

Sigh...that is because, Jacob, my dear friend, you don't pay attention.  It isn't because he is black, or because he is from a single-child house.  It is because he thinks he understands what drives people and how to get them to do what is in everyone's best interest.  See for example his getting CHicago cops to videotape investigations.   Again, you can disagree, but stop making shit up.  

He is really delusional if  he thinks that getting Chicago cops to videotape investigations proves that he can be pretty good at diplomacy to strengthen ties with estranged allies and reduce threats.

People can learn, even Bush has learned a lot. I see that Palin has a capacity to learn.

I Obama believes 10% of what he is saying about himself, he is a lost cause. He doesn't have a capacity to learn, he doesn't see a need to learn, he doesn't understand, how unprepared he is for the job.

boneill :

[Obama] thinks he understands what drives people and how to get them to do what is in everyone's best interest.

Putin believes it's in his best interest to continue occupying Georgia, scare the hell out of his "near abroad" (Ukraine, etc) and hold EU disunited and cowed by periodically turning off gas supplies in winter.  A'jad believes in getting nukes that will allow him to drive the "great satan" from the ME and deal with the "little satan" appropriately.

While US (on the bi-partisan basis, I should hope) believes that both Russia and Iran would be much better off adopting very different policies under different leaders.

What can Obama do about that?  Does he even understand the problem?

Did I read this correctly: "Why, a hem two inches below the knee! So risque! I giver her her due: she is pretty like a cosmetics saleswoman at Macy's."

What, you didn't use up all your sexism on Hillary Clinton, you saved some just in case the Republicans nominated a woman VP?  Or is this just one of your gifts that keeps on giving?

And you guys claim to be "progressives"?

"Why was the softly adorable five-month old Down's Syndrome baby also presented for hours on hours to the television audience, passed from Cindy McCain to anyone near and then back to Cindy?"

1. This "softly adorable" child has been in the Governor's office since within a couple of days of his birth.  His mother has been known to discreetly nurse him in said office.  Are you advocating that she should have dumped him off in day care before accepting the VP nomination?

2. Would you have felt better if they had locked him in a linen closet for the two hours?  So then you wouldn't have to look at him and his degenerate extra chromosome?

3. Did Saint Obama lead by example by sequestering his children at the DNC?

"He is really delusional if  he thinks that getting Chicago cops to videotape investigations proves that he can be pretty good at diplomacy to strengthen ties with estranged allies and reduce threats."

On the contrary, it seems like a pretty good exercize in negotiation, and something I can't quite imagine Bush doing (or even knowing why it's a good idea).

ironyroad,

If this is good enough prove for you that Obama is ready, I can't argue  with you. We have no common ground for discussion.

"What can Obama do about that? Does he even understand the problem?"

No, sabaka, he doesn't understand but apparently you do.

What are we doing about it right now? What are all those cold-eye realists, Kremlinologists, and  savvy foreign policy experts at the beck and call of Dick Chenny doing about it right now? Funny how all those people that "understand the problem" have either done nothing or have been ineffective, yet nobody has complained, not even those that use the crisis as an excuse to perpetually remind us of the "obambi"  inside Obama.

Perhaps you complained and I missed it, in which case I apologize.

Yes,  scrubby, I do understand it. So, apparently, did, and does, Sen. McCain.  But Bush ("I looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul")  & RIce (a former Russian/Soviet studies academic) clearly missed it.  Perhaps Secretary Rice was too busy working on that promising Israeli-Palestinian final peace deal.  Not sure what President Bush is too busy with these days.  

Your candidate Obama, equally clearly, also didn't get it.  A few days later, though, he (rhetorically) came to McCain's position, but without much credibility AFAIC.  My reading of his worldview is essentially the same as boneill's -- Obama thinks he can sit down with the likes of Putin, A/jad and by sheer power of his eloquence make them see "what's in everyone's best interest".

And in case you didn't notice,  Cheney just went to Georgia and Ukraine to express US support for both countries and to announce 1 bln in aid to Georgia.  This is just the beginning of a long process.

buffalo boy when I run for president you are my pick for v.p.especially  i