I think it's kinda weird that people spend a lot of time thinking about how Bill Clinton makes money and no one thinks about how George HW Bush makes money.

Also, no one talks about the most egregious and cynical money maker of all, Rudy Guiliani... but I guess he hasn't been (and hopefully never will be) president.

Mmathog: Great post. Walker Bush was leveraged into the oil business through family connections, his Arbusto oil concern went broke, then he was leveraged out of that and into a sweetheart deal that made him a lot of money. He was leveraged into his slot as a part owner of the Texas Rangers and then exited stage left on better terms than about anyone else would have recieved. It's absurd; he talks like an entrepeneur and yet it was Prescott's clan that made him. As for Guiliani, he makes Big Bill look like Jane Addams and the matter of his money deserves more vetting.

"But the campaign will never pay it back, no way. So who will? If she loses the nomination as she now seems utterly bound to do, it will be the Obama campaign or the Democratic National Committee."

I don't get this?  Why would either one of the DNC or the Obama campaign ever pay for money Hillary's campaign borrowed from Hillary?  The DNC doesn't guarantee campaign loans do they?  Obama's campaign wouldn't guarantee Hillary's campaign's loans, would they?

Don't the candidates call these personal contributions "loans" solely so they can take back what cash is left at the end of the campaign if there is any cash left?

My bet is that Mark Penn won't get paid 100 cents on the dollar and Hillary will get none of this "loaned" money back.  Am I missing something?

Well to be crystal clear liberal reformer, I was talking about Bush I, not the current president.

Anyway, these guys (including Guiliani) are so-called 'conservatives,' yet they unfailingly make most of their cash by sitting on the nexus of corporate and American bureaucratic power, using their influence in the latter to make boatloads of cash in the former (and do they always consider American interests?)

By contrast, Bill Clinton, particularly wrt his speaking fees, is a guy who grew up with nothing, no money, no family connections, and makes money clearly by dint of his skills and personality.

It's ok to hate Clinton with the heat that burns from the fire of a thousand suns, but one would think conservatives would laud the 'up from the bootstraps' success of Clinton rather than obsessing about his speaking fees and book deals.

Of course, Peretz isn't a 'conservative' in this discussion, and maybe he's even more disgusted by the way Bush, Guiliani, and Cheney make money than he is with Clinton, I just haven't seen evidence of that.

mmathog, you listed Papa Bush George Herbert Walker Bush, did you mean his na-erdowell son Shrub?

I think Papa Bush has been generally a model of restraint since leaving office. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard tell of him running around making million dollar speeches constantly, he has done a few sure but nothing like Bill.

I still think Bill will get plenty of money, there are plenty of third world dictators who want to have their pictures taken with a former President, he will run around the World first class, supposedly making money for his charity, which in the end will finance him running around everywhere first class. Here is an example of his Charity at work:

In December, 2008, President Clinton will travel to Hong Kong to join several hundred Asian leaders from a wide variety of backgrounds to explore the strengthening cultures of social and global responsibility among Asian leaders, and the benefits that can be accrued through collaboration. For 2008, CGI Asia will focus on three main areas:

   * Education

   * Energy & Climate Change

   * Public Health

This CGI meeting in Asia will be similar in format to the CGI Annual Meetings in New York. In Hong Kong, President Clinton will engage a distinguished group of leaders for two days of panel discussions and interactive working sessions, each of which will examine specific challenges and opportunities for action.

Like the Annual Meetings in New York, the CGI meeting in Hong Kong will promote actionable outcomes by providing participants with unique, meaningful opportunities to work collaboratively to articulate their own Commitment to Action. Commitments are a unique strength of CGI that have defined its success on the global stage.

Each commitment reflects a new, specific, and measurable step being taken by a CGI participant to address a challenge of his or her choosing. Each commitment includes a plan of action with timetables and mechanisms for evaluating progress.

Yes, he will schmooze with a bunch of bigwigs, they will have a lot of feel good meetings, and Bill will have his picture taken making him feel oh so important. Meanwhile the real work will be done by people who have nothing to do with this charade, people who work in remote villages throughout the region. I have known and worked with these people for over a decade and they are the ones who make a difference, certainly not Bill.

I am talking about Papa Bush.

"I think Papa Bush has been generally a model of restraint since leaving office."

He's a small government conservative who uses government to make himself money. Illegal? No. Nauseating? Yes. Hypocrotical? It would appear so.

"I could be wrong, but I haven't heard tell of him running around making million dollar speeches constantly, he has done a few sure but nothing like Bill."

Right, I think people like you have weird values. If people wanna pay someone an assload of cash to give a speech (and Bush went to Kuwait and Japan to do just that.... Kuwait???!!!) then well, that's ok. However, to spend a career rising to the top of a political party that bitches about big government and works tirelessly to cut the parts of gov't. that helps poor people, then to turn around and use your gov't. contacts to enrich yourself is well, hard to swallow. Comprende?

I'm not certain what the rest of your post has to do with this discussion. You don't like Clinton, whatever.

I do agree with mmathog about Bill's up-from-nothing rise.  I've wondered the same thing- isn't he an amazing American success story?  Don't get me wrong, I can't stand the dude- but what he did with what he had is incredible.  

Every one of our living ex-presidents is on the Saudi payroll and may also garner additional funds from other Gulf potentates. Nice work if you can get it.

Mmathog: My mistake (wince). I was bleary - eyed from rampant blogging these last two days.  But I think that blackton nailed it. George HW Bush has been a model of restraint out of office. The jury is out on Shrub, of course.

"George HW Bush has been a model of restraint out of office."

Yeah, I don't really think that's the case. He's quieter, gets less attention, and we kinda like our old establishment wasps earning their money since plymouth rock days.

mmathog:  "Right, I think people like you have weird values. If people wanna pay someone an assload of cash to give a speech (and Bush went to Kuwait and Japan to do just that.... Kuwait???!!!) then well, that's ok. However, to spend a career rising to the top of a political party that bitches about big government and works tirelessly to cut the parts of gov't. that helps poor people, then to turn around and use your gov't. contacts to enrich yourself is well, hard to swallow. Comprende?"  I think the doors of perception in my brain just opened wide up.  You make a mind-blowing point.

I do have a problem with Billy taking $130 million from an oil-rich dictator who wants to get his hands on uranium and is trading favors.  But your point above is is so true.  Weird that I never quite saw it that way--the part about using government to make money as very anti-conservative.   I like, I like.

Mmathog: If you have the goods on Poppy, please advise. Otherwise, I think an apology is in  order.

liberal reformer, I'm touched by your reflex to defend the honor of America's most priveleged WASPs, I mean, what better way to spend your time... here's a bit of Kevin Phillips... like I said, nothing illegal, just stinkeroo:

www.ebaydemo.org/.../Bushes_long_entanglement.html

Feel free to google 'bush oil carlyle saudia arabia' and such. You'll see your share of conspiracy theory garbage, but there's little doubt that Bush pere cynically (and I'd argue, hypocritically) exploits his former government positions to enrich himself.

Do as the Athenians did. Bring back the practice of exile for truly obnoxious figures on the national scene.

Actually, exile would be good for Bill and for the US. He's loved abroad, where no one particularly wants to hear him talk about his wife, and he brings back warm and fuzzy memories of the US for people around the world, excepting Russia and the other pro-Serb, brataslavyanskiye Christian Orthodox nations.

Just let me know how I can co-invest alongside him and Giustra.

Mmathog: Defending WASP elites is not my idea of time well spent. I have read Kevin Phillips extensively. He is an interesting writer and is someone to wield against plutocratic excess but sometimes his passion outruns his empirical evidence and the dots are connected too neatly in his hermetically sealed populist cosmos. I know all about the Carlyle Group. I was just attempting to place things in context.

Hog, I am not saying Papa Bush is a saint, but he really has been low key and I do appreciate that. I think low key should be kind of mandatory for all former Presidents no matter the party. By low key I mean not much involved in Party politics, but the Jimmy Carter Habitat for Humanity bit is wonderful. Same for Al Gore (who should have been Pres.) But Bill Clinton has been a pig.

"I am not saying Papa Bush is a saint, but he really has been low key and I do appreciate that"

As do I. Granted that Grorge the First is by temperment a rather low key guy anyway, I've found his eerie silence during the last several years intriguing. Given his own governing style, I can't think he's been very happy with junior's antics. I would love to be a fly on the wall and hear what he really thinks about the past seven years...

This is Marty's excuse for not ponying up any money to the supposedly-so-vital-to-beat-Hillary primary when it mattered (or when it didn't) -- he may be rich, but he doesn't make Bill Clinton money.

Blackie:  You can be low-key and greedy at the same time.  The difference between Bill and George (whose Carlyle group has gotten huge contracts in Iraq (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Bill is swinish in a very public way.  

I do agree about staying out of  party politics.  Being a fly on Poppy's wall would get quite dull.  I somehow think he's managed to rationalize everything away.  Confronting, head on, the havoc that his son has wreaked on our planet would probably leave him disintegrated.

It is patently obvious that Marty's stance is far more anti-Clinton than it is pro-Obama. And, as far as I can tell, it is based on personal animosity to the Clintons, far more than it is on policy differences. This has tarnished TNR's image for me.

Bubba needs to go the talk-show route. He's a natural.

Daytime, of course. That's where the money and his natural consistency hangs.

"Today on 'Bill": Katie Couric! Rob Reiner! Hot dog-eating champion Joey Chestnut!"

or how about:

"Today, a Very Special 'Bill'. Elisabeth Fritzl: Out of the Incest Dungeon."

Dude plays his cards right, he could be the next Oprah.

Agreed, mollysimon, I think that Poppy probably routinely practices cognitive dissonsance. And being that fly would be horrifyingly dull.

molly, yeah, probably right, still I must admit I have taken a little bit of a shine to poppy, his skydiving, his hosting Mitt Romney's speech on his Mormon faith, and since he hasn't been swinish publicly he hasn't been an irritant, so maybe it is best i am not a fly on that wall. Live and let live.

Blackton: Hear, hear. To some extent, I distrust the vox populi if it is too insistent or if it resembles a hedgehog (the reference here is to Isaiah Berlin). This is precisely the problem I have with the Obomaphenomenon. I guess this is the James Madison in me. Correspondingly, I do not have a knee jerk reaction against elites (take that Hillary). George Kennan once slapped down the Ann Richards of the world in his defense of Poppy. He opined that gilded origins should not ipso facto exclude someone from public service. I happen to think that Kennan had too much of a problem with democracy from below but his voice is a useful corrective to limbic populists.

Carlyle is at least respectable. Tony Giustra and the vast majority of entrepreneurs engaged in natural resource ventures in places like Kazakhstan are not.

"Limbic populists."  I like that liberal.  

Blackie, I know, that's the problem, we of the masses always get sentimental about our leaders.  Ah, gee, he's a sweet old coot who sometimes cries.  And he still has enough piss and vinegar to jump out of planes!  Problem is, he raised a monster.  

Tep:  But is Carlyle so respectable?  Hasn't there been so hanky-panky with Iraq contracts--i.e. providing insufficient food/nutrition to our soldiers?  I'm too drained right now to Wikipedia them, but they ain't such nice people.

Not so fast:

May 8th, 2008

"Clinton supporter pressures Pelosi over White House battle"

Posted: 10:12 AM ET

"WASHINGTON — In a heated phone call with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi late last month, Hillary Clinton supporter Harvey Weinstein threatened to cut off campaign money to congressional Democrats unless Pelosi embraced a new plan by the movie mogul to finance a revote of the Democratic presidential primaries in Florida and Michigan, according to three officials who were briefed on the contents of the conversation.

The three officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk publicly about the private phone conversation, said Weinstein, a top supporter of Clinton’s presidential campaign, appeared determined to buy Clinton more time in her battle against Sen. Barack Obama by pushing for the revote and pressing Pelosi to back off her previous comments that superdelegates should support the candidate who’s leading in pledged delegates in early June.

Weinstein, a co-founder of Miramax Films who now runs the Weinstein Company, called CNN Thursday to vehemently deny that he issued any threats. “Never, ever was the thought about denying funding to Democrats,” he said.

Weinstein said the phone call focused on his offer to put together a team of people to help finance a revote in Florida and Michigan. “I told her people felt there would be a disenfranchisement of voters” unless Democrats came up with a remedy, he said."

cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/.../clinton-supporter-pressures-pelosi-over-white-house-battle

Is anyone arguing that just because the Bushes represent the historic scion of American wealth and privelege that they should be barred from public service? Or from making money? Certainly not me.

You guys suddenly shifted from talking about money to talking about your feelings. I get it, you think Clinton is a lout and a boor while you think Bush I is proper and dignified, whatever. It's beside the point.

liberal reformer, if you know all about Carlyle and are familiar with Kevin Phillips, then why don't you agree with me that it's kinda weird that people obsess over Clinton's speaking fees while maintain silence on Bush I's business dealings? It sounds like you all just like Bush I better, but I don't know, I don't have these weird values, you guys can explain them.

Back in the day, the Bushies parentage (along with a lot of other well connected American Wasps) did business with the Nazis. Now, I know I just dropped the term 'nazi' so everyone will now get hysterical (and I'm now obeying that internet rule where all online conversations end in 'nazi'), but I'm not suggesting that any of these people were explicit nazi sympathizers (although I imagine some were).

My point of bringing this up is to illustrate how these folks roll. They sit on the nexus of gov't (both domestic and foreign)., finance, and corporate power and use their influence and connections to make cash. They don't particularly care who they do business with, they're in it for the money.

Why Bill Clinton's speaking fees are more interesting (or more damning, or more hypocritical) than this is beyond me.

As I get older, it occurs to me that people don't really have principles, they largely just have feelings.

I respect your HRC support jackson, but I think it's over.

In fact, I think I understand your predilection to go from HRC to McCain should she fail (it's about foreign policy). In fact, I think you and I have concluded the exact same thing about Obama wrt to foreign policy, and I'm gratified by this. Interestingly, your conclusions cause you to reject him while my (same) conclusions cause me to embrace him.

Am I imagining all this?

"Why Bill Clinton's speaking fees are more interesting (or more damning, or more hypocritical) than this is beyond me."

Why? Because Marty says so, is why.

Why does he say so, cause he hated those damn uppity Clintons.

Only his hairdresser knows for sure why he hates them so much.

hair dresser!  

A rather paltry patch for any self respecting hair dresser...

and yes, why oh why does he hate the Clintons?  It really does pique the curiosity. Just what did they ever do to him?  Is it just poltiical differences and if so, then his response does seem to be disproportional to simple ideological differences. The man hates like Medea and over what?  

"Is it just poltiical differences and if so, then his response does seem to be disproportional to simple ideological differences."

Rare moment of agreement, JB.

Peretz can be a puzzle, sometimes.

hog, fair enough about the Carlyle group, but like Molly mentioned, it ain't exactly on the public radar, Bill's rapaciousness has been though. 109 million dollars in 8 years? Not to mention all the money made previously. Honestly, how much is enough? They can't possibly spend what they have (or maybe they can if Hillary decides to piss it all away on her bid now).

I am not (again) saying Bush I was a saint. Harry Truman was. He had a military pension of $112.00 a month after he left the Presidency, and that was it. He refused to trade in his office for cushy business deals that could have minted him a fortune as it was not dignified. He hoped to live off his memoirs. Luckily Congress retroactively voted a pension for exPresidents, the thought of a former President scraping by was too much for our own dignity. Herbert Hoover (yes, Herbert Hoover!!) stepped forward first to claim his pension though he was independently wealthy doing so specifically so that Harry Truman need not do it first.

Tell me again about values. These people had values and I recognize that, so please no need to patronize me by saying it is all about my feelings. I don't expect Harry Truman anymore, but on a scale of virtue I will at least take a public semblance of it. And Papa Bush compared to Bill has more of it.

molly - almost nobody who makes lots of money, consistently, over decades in the private equity business is "nice." They're all mean SOBs whose success depends in no small measure on cutting very sharp deals and having very sharp elbows. It's rarely win-win in their biz.

Respectable = playing by the rules and delivering value to their investors. Plus their principals aren't as greedy as Schwarzmann or Kravis.

109 million in 8 years is chicken feed for guys like Bush Sr.; it's rent money.

It seems to me that whether one likes them personally is a matter of personal taste.

To decide to be bothered more by Clinton's money making than by Bush's, and explain this difference in perceived virtue as due to one being 'quieter' seems like weird values to me.

"on a scale of virtue I will at least take a public semblance of it. And Papa Bush compared to Bill has more of it."

I don't understand why Bush I quietly earning a billion bucks exploiting his position and place is more virtuous than an obnoxious Clinton earning 20% of that.

Tep:  My use of the word "nice" was meant to be ironic.  

Now, I'm not talking about equities versus hedge fundies, I'm talking about an extremely corrupt corporation. Period.  In fact, they've probably worked against US interests far more than our friend Bill, who's made a few cents off Ron Burkle (nothing compared to Poppy) and struck an unfortunate, and yes, nefarious, deal with the Kazakh dictator.  They're all scum.  Poppy just happens to be, as mmathog points out, a WASP blueblood, is careful about choosing his sex partners, and hangs out with less nouveau buddies.  Hence, no Ron Burkle to-do.  

As far as equities, I don't care if it's classier than hedge funds, how they go about doing business is immoral.  Sue me, I'm judgmental.

P.S. Tep:  It's Schwarzman.  I once went on a date with him--long ago, when I was still a pert twentysomething.  So full of himself like you can't believe . . . . talked happily and freely about Steve over drinks at Plaza Athenee.   What a little turd.

Mmathog: But I do agree with you on Bill Clinton. I don't see him as a scourge on our polity who needs to be taken down. Mollysimon: Thanks for your kind comment. You are one of the best posters on the Spine, along with jacksondyer and blackton. You are all informative, crisp, incisive and entertaining.

Molly - somehow I don't picture you as being under 5' 5", or whatever height it is that Steve attains to. Or maybe you looked down on him literally as well as figuratively?

Someday the TNR TalkBackers will have to contribute their best life stories to a book. "True Lies From TNR" or somesuch.

hog, if Papa Bush made a billion dollars it sure as hell has not been in the public radar, and beyond that, the same question applies to him as to Clinton, even more so with him, he is over 80, what the hell can he possibly do with so much money except throw it into the money pile. Of course I would condemn such greed in him too, if I knew about it, but Papa Bush at least had the sense to do it out of the public eye. As it is, I only have your word for it that he did make 1 billion.

Blackton: Eloquent post. George Herbert Walker Bush just does not appear to be a malefactor of great wealth. I think that this debate is  about tapped out.

Not quite, liberal.  Tep:  I'm 5'4".   So we would have made a cute couple, except that I like to talk.  Plus, I'm way too big a goof-ball to have been a trophy wife.  I think he figured that out in 30 seconds.  

molly,

hey, if my wife ever dumps me - which I hope she never does but who knows? - I will look you up. As The Fat Man once said, "I love talking to a [woman] who loves to talk."