You don't think this spells doom Marty?  Coming from you, that is a comfort, but it is very very bad.

The anti-Israel stuff finally brought tears to my eyes, I could not finish.  

Not doom?  Looks like doom.  Smells like doom.  Tastes like doom.  But no, it's good news!  It will teach us how far we have to go.  To paraphrase Churchill, if the reverend is a blessing in disguise, the blessing is very well disguised.

"The Wrong Stuff"

Yea, but your candidate spent 20 years listening to this lunatic.

Any comments about that?

.  

ChanRobt said:  "Meanwhile, Jacksondyer, the original "collaboration" which made the less pretty much inevitable is how poorly the French army resisted the 1940 German invasion. "

This is a different issue. Paul Berman's book Liberalism and Terror addresses the issue of the French left's inability to face up to the Nazi threat in the 30's.  He sees a parallel between their reaction then and the left's reaction to Islamicist terror today.

The right of course then and now welcomed the Nazis as they saw in them a kindred ideology.  

"I'm not meaning to be an apologist for the French."

Unlike mackenzie, I don't think you are.

" But, Americans are yet to be tested.  Perhaps down the road with the Chinese?"

This is a side issue. Americans were tested historically during the 19c and while not perfect we didn't do so badly. Fighting a civil war to end slavery is something we can be proud of.

Can you imagine France fighting a civil war to keep their countrymen from turning over Jews to the Gestapo?

oops wrong thread, sorry.

Obama needs to understand that making enemies can be a good thing in political life. A necessary thing, certainly. He needs to make a few enemies now, and fast.

Start with Wright on the left, and some hedge hog types on the right. Re. the latter, give back their money-- Obama doesn't need a penny of it. And tax their 2-and-20 scammers' bucks at a normal rate.

Why anyone on God's green earth would believe anything that comes out of the mouths of Bill and Hillary Clinton is beyond me.  I wish someone would explain what Bill Clinton actually accomplished during his two terms or how he furthered the interests of the Democratic party.  How is he not responsible, at least to some degree, for the rise of the right wing dominance in Washington?

I voted for him.  Twice.  I defended him against the "VRWC."  Now I am just sick and tired of them both.  They are the worse thing to happen to the Democratic party in this election.

For Marty Peretz, the answer to the politics of Obama's pastor and "mentor" is electing Obama president. Love is indeed a many-splendored thing.

"and it also is a demonstration of why we need Barack Obama so much."

No, we don't need real Obama who has done nothing to heel own community

Marty, you gotta admit that what Wright is doing has an egomaniacal side to it.  He started fairly tame on PBS with Moyers, who gave him a very polite and cordial hearing, did a zinger of an nAACP speech that a lot of people saw as his making fun of the Irish and the Kennedy's.. he almost did so overtly but stopped himself just in time... And then over the top at the Press Club... in some ways acting like a clown... in other's showing is "wounded narcissism" as a psychoanalyst friend said... over what... we'll over being Black (remember that wasn't Farrakhan's fault... "he didn't make me Black..."  Ooops.  Who did?  God?  Over Obama partially repudiating his words?  Over the media doing a hatchet job on him?    One was left with the impression that he wanted to hurt Obama's chances... calling him a politician who will say anything (re: his repudiation of some of his words)... All over the top and in part acting like a clown...

Does it help Obama?  Hard to see how really...

Maybe by becoming more familiar, he seems both nuttier and more intelligent (like a fox)  all in one one... and maybe this was some subterranean missile that was not going to go away so have it out in daylight... and believe it or not some people (even conservative Republican/Christians) seem to have liked it, so maybe ... it will redound to his benefit... but for working class and Catholic voters... I somehow don't think so...

Odd, all very odd and I'm not at all convinced that good for Obama except that the full Monte is sort of fascinating to watch...

yacovdavid writes (sarcastically):  "the answer to the politics of Obama's pastor and "mentor" is electing Obama president."

It may seem odd to you, but yes, that's it.  Why?  Because electing Obama president will be the death-knell for the kind of politics embodied by Wright and his loquacious racial paranoia.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Marty, you've got a second big hit here and you're one of the few others on this planet that gets the real problem here.

His racial angle aside, Wright sounds very much like his limelight seeking pastoral kin, Robertson, Falwell, Dobbs, Hagee, and other whose names have long since dropped down the memory hole.

I suspect that a chestomathy of the voluble reverends' greatest sound bites would, after awhile, become look like of those "match the quote with the speaker" quizzes.  Most of these tele-iluminati have made condemnatory remarks about America, often with the clear implication that they and they alone had a direct phone line to you know Who.

There is demonstrable evidence that God has lost interest in orchestrating Notre Dame football, but beyond that, we have no idea what's on His mind.

Dan

"Because electing Obama president will be the death-knell for the kind of politics embodied by Wright and his loquacious racial paranoia."

Amen. Thanks, irony.

"Because electing Obama president will be the death-knell for the kind of politics embodied by Wright and his loquacious racial paranoia."

Doubt it. Wright's getting Obamaian ovations from the likes of the NAACP. Not exactly a fringe organization.

There's no better racket in America today than the religious-tribal huckster racket. Wright's agent is probably investigating real estate in Maui about now.

If Obama cannot disown this vicious clown (why by the way, lied when saying Farrakhan called Zionism, and Judaism, a gutter religion) are we supposed to trust him when he makes his promised house call upon Ahmadinijad?  Not one of this countries' enemies will make peace with a weakling, or anyone who looks like one. This is the time to show he has stones— Wright's begging for it. Bill Clinton can put a guy like Wright away as easy as he can chew a pork rind, and I'll bet Hillary's learned that lesson too.  I suggest Obama look at some vido of the Sister Soulja moment.

By the way, I like Obama's principled stand on gas taxes. It's just that this kind of position has been poison to Democratic presidential candidates in general elections.  This is even more reason to kick Wright down the road. The arrogance of a man who falsely imagines or claims  an attack on him is an attack on his religion needs to be brought down a peg.

"Why?  Because electing Obama president will be the death-knell for the kind of politics embodied by Wright and his loquacious racial paranoia."

It might and it might not. Obama's election might just exacerbate them if Black people come to feel that Obama isn't doing enough for them.

In any case, that in itself, is no reason to vote either for him or against him.

Personally, I think that progress on racial issues will be incremental and no one person Black or White will be able to transcend an historical reality as momentous as our racial divisions. This will happen slowly as racial intermixing continues slowly but steadily. In racial reconciliation as in life the “slow and steady wins the race.”

The desire for sudden ends tends to put and end to progress.

"There's no better racket in America today than the religious-tribal huckster racket. Wright's agent is probably investigating real estate in Maui about now."

Ah, even better.  Trinity is building Wright a mansion in the suburbs of Chicago.  The place sounds nice, it's in a gated community and even has an elevator.  

www.suntimes.com/.../867629,CST-NWS-wright29.article

The problem with Obama is that he claimed to be for 20 years the piano player in the whorehouse who didn't know what was going on upstairs. Now Wright attributes this posture to Obama being a politician. Who was the one who coined the phrase "credibility gap?"

The wages of hate is... a McMansion:

Trinity United Church of Christ is building Barack Obama's controversial former pastor a million-dollar Tinley Park home complete with an elevator, whirlpool, butler's pantry, circular driveway and four-car garage, building plans show....

The four-bedroom home being built for the Rev. Jeremiah Wright is in the Odyssey Club neighborhood, which boasts some of Tinley Park's largest homes and a mix of town homes. It backs up to the Odyssey Country Club and golf course.

The mansion under construction is estimated to cost $1 million, a building permit shows. It will also feature a large family room with a fireplace and bar, a rubberized exercise room and a spare room for a future theater or swimming pool, building plans show.

Trinity United Church of Christ, 400 W. 95th Street, Chicago, is listed as the landowner on the permit.

[Q for the knowing: what is a "rubberized exercise room"? Sounds like some blogs I know...]

Your analogy is a bit askew, nbarry.  Unlike the piano player, Obama claimed that the bulk of what Wright said and did during those 20 years was positive and that he exerted a great deal of influence for good in the community.  You can argue with that, but it's not weird or morally reprehensible.  Wright has now revealed the inner narcissist and is trying to pretend that Obama's criticism was only a political chessboard move, not to be taken seriously.  It seems to me that the credibility gap is between American political norms and Obama's attempt to treat Wright like a human being that he disagrees with, rather than as pond scum.

I am glad you realize that there is "credibility gap,' Irony.

However, you are wrong about its source:

"It seems to me that the credibility gap is between American political norms and Obama's attempt to treat Wright like a human being that he disagrees with, rather than as pond scum."

The credibility gap is between what Obama says the Reverend said and what Wright actually said over the last twenty years. It’s very difficult for most people to believe that a man who can't seem to control his hatred for his country when speaking in public would not have said similar things over the past twenty years.

You may not care about his contempt for America, but the average voter in the Democratic party does care.

Marty---I don't particularly care if you destroy yourself by your blind following of Obama but have Rachmouness on the rest of us.Obama went to Wright's church for 20 years and owes his senatorial seat to his membership in this racist  madeup church with this  storefront huckster minister. .

"It’s very difficult for most people to believe that a man who can't seem to control his hatred for his country when speaking in public would not have said similar things over the past twenty years."

Firstly, I don't think it's hatred, jd.  It's the kind of "righteous anger" that is deeply rooted in the Puritan tradition -- the "jeremiad" -- and heard very commonly in fundamentalist churches, and it only sounds like hatred from Wright because it's about race (racial paranoia if you like).  Whites freeze up any time that type of anger comes through.

Secondly, it seems to me anyway that Obama dealt with the issue itself in his Philly speech, which put a lot of space between himself and Wright but also explained where that anger and bitterness came from (funny, Obama wasn't accused of "elitism" when he mentioned black bitterness -- wonder why?).  Now, unfortunately, he has to deal properly with Wright, who has decided he's going to deep-six Obama for disagreeing with him.

But it's difficult -- what could cost Obama in IN, the opposite could cost him in NC.

Oy vey - hilarious post Tep.  A mansion?

Wandrey - I can't wait to see what Billy Yard will do with that one.

Thinking about this the last day or two, it seems to me what's going down is not just Wright's offended ego escaping in a long hiss of red-hot steam, or even a kind of weird jealousy-resentment deal in which Obama gets invited in the front door of the plantation house instead of him or some such phantasmagoria.

Rather, I think it's that Wright went out over the weekend on a seek and destroy mission to find and remove Obama's Philly speech on race.  Everything that Wright has built his empire on -- a mixture of race paranoia, redemption Christianity, post-Civil Rights politics, black empowerment, hidden resegregation, and personal egoism -- was being shrunk back to its normal size by that speech.  Wright's world-view has been put in jeapordy by Obama and is more and more looking like an endangered species the closer Obama gets to the presidency.

For Obama, race is there but it's not the thing.  For Wright, it's the thing that's always there.

ironyroad said:  "Firstly, I don't think it's hatred, jd."

I have heard the argument and I am not  convinced. Here is a man who believes that white and black people have different kinds of brains. To associate him with the Western Judeo Christian tradition is just spin.

It also devalues the work of genuine preachers in that traditino like Martin Luther King.

"Secondly, it seems to me anyway that Obama dealt with the issue itself in his Philly speech."

I know you think that, but here again he addressed issues that were important but they were not pertinant. This is why Wright could blind side him again, and this is why Obama is out there having to deal with it all over again.

I think Obama is a good man and I don't believe that he and Wright have much in common however, enought questions linger in my mind about Obama's character that I am not ready to vote for him for President. Let him show his stuff in the Senate and the next time he runs for President he will have a record to run on and not just slogans.

I suggested in my last posting that the blessed Reverend Wright was actually doing harm, deliberately

"The Spine said: "I suggested in my last posting that the blessed Reverend Wright was actually doing harm, deliberately"

That's probably right, Marty, but it doesn't change the dynamics of their relationship. "Father figure jealous of adopted son" and wants to destory him. It's a tale as old as the hills. However, they are still father figure and adopted son.

Obama's eloquence will come back to haunt him, especially when he said:  “I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother…”

Like the characters in Sartre’s “No Exit” Obama and the Reverend Wright made their hell and they are stuck in it together till death do them part.

I sincerely hope not.  I thought we lived in the United States, where we're not inflexibly tied to a social past, but rather able to grow and change, and indeed to even occasionally transcend the past.  If not, we can all pack up this project and go home to wherever we came from.

We're a culture with some exits, in other words.

"We're a culture with some exits, in other words."

Yes, we are and to paraphrase Kafka's parable each individual must find his own entrance and exit.

As I said, I think well of Obama, and if he is half the man I think he is he will find his own way. When he does in four or eight years I will be there ready to vote for him: but not this year.

A random "kafka" thought:  In the anteroom -- Before the Law

Yes, before the law, actually it's before the gate of the law: a personalized entrance.