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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
24.04.2008
Bill Clinton Shows His True Colors

So now Bill Clinton wants us to think that, when he compared Barack Obama's victory in the South Carolina primary this year to to Jesse Jackson's win in the same race two decades ago, he was actually complimenting his wife's opponent rather than deriding him. What's more, said our Pinocchio president, Jackson himself took the likening as tribute.  Well, why wouldn't he?

Jackson has been washed up for years.  He has not had real work, perhaps for decades, and does no real work now, sort of like Clinton himself.  You can imagine JJ going from city to city, always with an entourage of more than anyone in his position needs, searching for racist incidents that he can ambulance-chase into an outrage.  But he does have a steady income largely through PUSH (whatever tangible has PUSH ever accomplished?), financed by big corporations and financial institutions, some guilty of racial misbehavior, some not, that would rather pay Jackson off than risk nasty picket lines or even boycotts against them.  When hip-hop came along Jackson seemed like the people's poet.  Now, almost everyone grasps that he's simply a wise-ass charlatan.

Bill Clinton's Obama-Jackson analogy was an insult.  First to the person of Barack Obama who was never, ever a rabble rouser but talks, almost always and even to big crowds, as if he is having a conversation.  (For old civil rights folks like myself he reminds me of Robert Moses who will not be remembered by younger people.)  Of course, many times he is simply having a conversation.  And even his speeches are less responsive to the cheers of the crowd than it is to the expectations of the audience that he conclude logically, that is, historically and factually coherent.  Clinton is an impressive marvelous orator, and so was William Jennings Bryan to whom the man from Hope bears many resemblances.  Like Bryan, Clinton is also a deceiver, a conjurer, a shill.  He cannot understand someone like Obama who appears to think that sometimes even his adversaries may be correct.

The politics of the Obama-Jackson analogy are even more venal in that Clinton reduces the person who in 2008 has built an unprecedented cross-class, cross-race, cross-age, cross-cultural, cross-ideological alliance of Americans to the man who marginally succeeded in getting out the black vote 20 years back.  Obama, says Clinton, go to the head of your segregated class.

The fact is that Clinton planted this race-stigmatizing idea personified by none other than Jesse Jackson into the heads of white Americans and--surprise!--some of them said, "yes, that's it."  Old habits are usually more comforting than new ideas.  Still, the fact that someone identified as a black American but of more complicated backgrounds, which backgrounds are fast becoming our national paradigm, is now poised to be the Democratic candidate for president should be exhilarating to all people who yearn for the new chapter in the country's history to begin.

Yes, there are a few matters on which I disagree with Obama.  But none of them is a matter of character.  If you have judged someone's character
rightly he or she is not likely to disappoint you.  I can live with most of Hillary's political positions, too, and Bill's as well.  My differences with them are not really about a tax percentage up or down or testing in the schools or even how to do with the lending calamity.  They are trimmers, and they will trim to the right if they are in office just as they are trimming to the left on the campaign trail.  It is their characters that spook me, and this spooking does not pass.

Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:29 PM with 45 comment(s)

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JackR said:

Right on, Marty.  As the Greeks say: " Character is destiny."

April 24, 2008 6:33 PM

WaltB said:

He sure can spin faster than a super collider!  Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, it's Superspinner Bill!

April 24, 2008 6:43 PM

jm_rice said:

Oh bullshit, Peretz.  You don't like the Clintons, and your remarks about them will always be contumely.  Conversely, you are in love with Obama, and thus your remarks about him will always be apologist.  That none of your issues with Obama are about character betrays your willful obtuseness.  Obama's cleaving to Wright is a character issue.  Your polemical contortions to deny this are comical.  You remind me of the little ingenue who will resort to any and all ways to rationalize uncomfortable revelations about her paramour.

As for Clinton in South Carolina, again, you show your disgusting prejudice.  To characterize Bill Clinton as racialist or as playing the race card, because he was candid enough to give Obama's victory there -- and it was as meaningless as will be his victory in North Carolina -- a demographic and, yes, pro-Hillary perspective, is utterly disingenuous.  One may disagree with Clinton's analysis on the merits, but Bill Clinton has done more for civil rights in America than the entire staff of TNR in their collective lifetimes, not to mention that there is probably far less bigotry in Bill Clinton's heart than in yours.  If you were so inclined you would not have taken the cheap shot.  But being mean spirited, you are so inclined.

Clinton in South Carolina is a phony issue, and I think you know this also.  You are not an idiot, so I must assume your continual harping on it is purely cynical.

April 24, 2008 6:50 PM

lymon1 said:

And that's why you've repeatedly attacked Chelsea Clinton (ignoring Al Gore Jr., let alone your own son)  -- because you like their politics but their characters "spook you."  Please, now you are insulting us.  Like your friend  Andrew Sullivan, who says Hillary has "shredded the last vestiges of humanity" and calls the Clintons "pathological," you are consumed with hatred for the Clintons and that is what has driven your pro-Obama stances (and at times appologisms), not respect for his character or intelligence.  You can count on one hand the posts you've made praising Obama -- I couldn't begin to guess at the number you've slammed Hillary and Bill (for Chelsea I think it's been 3).  

April 24, 2008 7:06 PM

thejauntyboulevardier said:

jimbo...

I must admit that you bring a needed dose of "reality check" to this ridiculous - and tiresome - peretz post, once again criticizing Clinton...and Jesse too!  A two-fer...yet again. I searched for a Carter reference but his crabbed pinkie must have accidentally hit the send button before he could complete that gestalt

My sense is that Bill's Jesse comparison was not entirely free of some racial tinge but to call it racist is unfair. As if marty wants to find someone who always demonizes his perceived adversaries, all he has to do is look at the gnarly gargoyle-like visage that he sees in the mirror everyday when he shaves.

This entire Clinton v Obama feud is getting ridiculous. I cannot believe the things that I read Obama supporters saying about Clinton and her supporters and my mind boggles at the things that Clinton supporters say about Obama and his supporters.

It is amazing how stupid smart people can get in the middle of a hotly contested primary race...

April 24, 2008 7:27 PM

jacksondyer said:

"It is amazing how stupid smart people can get in the middle of a hotly contested primary race..."

It's the narcissism of small differences.

Go Hillary!

April 24, 2008 8:15 PM

scire said:

I can agree with jm rice that perhaps the wright issue is a character issue, but I think more than anything it was just politically stupid. And I would like to know in what WAY it's a character issue. Because I'm not sure I understand how you frame it as such. That aside, Obama having a minor character issue doesn't mean that Hillary Clinton does not. Just because she established years ago that she's an opportunist, and a liar, and corrupt and without a moral compass, does not mean that she does not have an issue. I think she has BIG character issues that are far more damaging than Obama's. Remember, most of America can't stand the woman because of her character issues. Democrats who aren't voting for her think she has a character issue, and even some who are voting for her think she does as well.  So, if you say that half the voting populace is Democrat, and at least half of them think she has character issues, then you add on the 100% of Republicans and probably 75% of Independents that do, where does that leave her electorally in the fall? With her base. And that's it. Because I don't think blacks are going to return to her in large droves, and I firmly believe that young people simply won't turn out. Everybody keeps forgetting the youth vote Obama has brought into the fold. They'll turn out for him in the fall. I bet most of them will not turn out for Hillary.

I really believe, despite what the polls say, that John McCain is going to cream her in the fall if she manages to steal this nomination. Why else do you think the GOP media is her biggest cheerleader right now? They think so too.

April 24, 2008 8:23 PM

scire said:

And if Bill Clinton really isn't racist (which I don't believe he is), it makes his use of racism for political expediency even more disgusting, not less so, don't you think? Because it shows his utter cynicism.

April 24, 2008 8:25 PM

jacobt1 said:

"So now Bill Clinton wants us to think that, when he compared Barack Obama's victory in the South Carolina primary this year to to Jesse Jackson's win in the same race two decades ago, he was actually complimenting his wife's opponent rather than deriding him. "

Marty, I agree Character is destiny.  He didn't say NOW anything about compliment. You made this up.

You are a trimmer.

April 24, 2008 8:37 PM

jacobt1 said:

jm_rice  said:

"Clinton in South Carolina is a phony issue, and I think you know this also.  You are not an idiot, so I must assume your continual harping on it is purely cynical."

You are wrong, Jim.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

April 24, 2008 8:41 PM

blackton said:

45 days and counting, more or less, and this whole thing will be effectively over. North Carolina is a must win state for Hillary, but she will lose it by about 15%, and have her victory margin in Pa. wiped out. We will just run out the string, and after June 3 it all will be done.

I am looking forward to a McCain-Obama race, and will either be content or happy with the winner. And Bill will go back to whoring for money from third world dictators, and Hillary will sulk in the Senate, and seldom shall I be bothered with their presence.

April 24, 2008 8:41 PM

jm_rice said:

Desi, yes, why does he keep harping on this?  In his animus towards the Clintons he sounds like Molly, but without the excuse. (Well, I guess it could be hormonal.)  I know we can disagree about the merits of HRC vs BHO, but this Bill-Clinton's-race-card canard is not just wrongheaded -- Peretz's turning it into a trope is obnoxious. (Peretz as troll?)

Scire:  Indeed , it was a political issue.  Obama, when he was pandering to the local constituency, had good cause to identify with Wright.  But in refusing to disavow Wright as a friend (he deplored Wright's pronouncements but not the acquaintance), Obama appeals to sentiment.  And in a president, that's a character flaw.  It's like saying, I'm not going to abandon Goebbels because he's been nice to me.

Jacobt:  I stand corrected.

April 24, 2008 9:57 PM

mollysimon said:

Blackton,  I'm tired of Jim.  Make him go away.   He has cooties.  He's always talking about Nazis.  And being mean to girls.  Ick.

April 24, 2008 10:38 PM

allante said:

I replayed the video clip of Bill Clinton's comments that morning in South Carolina about a dozen times trying to get a feel for exactly what he was saying, and I concluded that his message was that race or gender won't determine the outcome, good campaigning will. He went on to say that Jesse Jackson was a great campaigner and won twice, Obama is a great campaigner, and then Clinton left the strong implication that Bill Clinton was a great campaigner because he, too, won South Carolina. But, he urged viewers, don't worry about the "inside politics", just go vote.

April 24, 2008 10:44 PM

ironyroad said:

jm_rice writes:  "And in a president, that's a character flaw.  It's like saying, I'm not going to abandon Goebbels because he's been nice to me."

No, it's like saying "I'm not going to abandon Rumsfeld/Gonzales/Brown/whomever because I've got this frat boy notion of government service that means nobody is ever accountable for anything."

April 25, 2008 12:03 AM

dkrieger said:

"Obama ... was never, ever a rabble rouser but talks, almost always and even to big crowds, as if he is having a conversation."

Actually, I find him self-righteous and condescending. Much more so than Gore in 2000. He chides us. He preaches to us. He wants to save our souls. Faugh. Does no one else find this off-putting?

April 25, 2008 1:15 AM

rrnewman said:

What Peretz and what most Demorats seem unable to admit (and I am a Democrat who did not vote for Bush) is that two African-Americans have led the nation at the hghest levels of national decision-making  over the last decade - Colin Powee and Condoleeza Rice. Whatever one may think of their actual performatnce or policies,  one simply must admit that literally no one in the country cared about the color of their skin. Their appointments caused no mass exodus from the Republican Party. Colin Powelll had an excellent chance at winning the Republican nomination for President and a very real chance of winning the presidency. I suspect that Condi Rice could have given McCain a good run for his money if she had chosen to enter the Republic race this election cycle. So please explain to me how Obama is unprecedented, Mr. Peretz. Is it because most Democrats do not want to acknowledge the efforts of Powell and Rice as historic efforts. This whole idea of Obama fulfilling the promise of the Declaration of Independence should be shot down as the basis for voting for the Democratic candidate for president. That is not the reason to vote for or against Obama. The only real reason should be because of his policy arguments and his ability to lead the country. But Perets seems so entrhalled with Obama fulfilling the promise of the Declaration of Independence that any critical examination of OBama seems impossible. What character is there in a candidate who claims to be post=racial but helongs to a church wth a Black nationalist identity for 20 years? So why not get off the character issue. Your hatred of the Clinton's is tiring and your glorification of Obama is not worhty of someone who is supposedly a political analyst.

April 25, 2008 1:18 AM

jm_rice said:

you're mean, molly, but I understand. like bill clinton i'm your unrequited love.  me? always talkiing about Nazis? really?  'fraid you must be confusing reality with your recurring wet dream about you as charlotte rampling and me as dirk bogarde.  or do little girls have wet dreams?  yet something else they don't have?  et voilà, the birth of feminism.

April 25, 2008 1:23 AM

dkrieger said:

rrnewman,

Excellent points. A while back, someone (I forget who) made the argument that Hillary had missed her moment: the presence of so many prominent women in American politics (Janet Reno, Madeline Albright, Nancy Pelosi, Condi Rice) had negated the urgency/poetic appeal of electing a woman president. But your argument --- and I think it's sound -- would suggest Obama may have missed his moment too. So why are black voters backing him by 90 percent margins? We don't see that kind of support among women for Hillary. Perhaps a list of two -- Rice and Powell -- isn't quite long enough to neutralize the identity politics appeal of Obama. When we see a black speaker of the house, black attorney general and black UN ambassador, then we may indeed find ourselves in a post-racial world.

Personally, I'd rather vote for the individual than for the race or gender symbol. I like a meritocracy -- it's the American way.

Memo to McCain: appoint blacks to top jobs in next administration.

April 25, 2008 1:56 AM

bigfish said:

"And in a president, that's a character flaw.  It's like saying, I'm not going to abandon Goebbels because he's been nice to me."

Jm, is "love the sinner; hate the sin" a character flaw?  As much as I don't want to invoke comparisons between Obama and anything religious, would it be following the straight and narrow to metaphorically "desire the death of sinners," e.g., throwing Wright under the bus?

April 25, 2008 2:13 AM

sleepyavl said:

Peretz likes character. This average bloke is just as those who elected George W. Bush based on character. Whenever someone makes the argument of character, you can be sue it's because their beloved lacks in qualities. Obama is a perfect example - a shrewd man who hs done little, is an unknown quantity and chooses the most fucked-up people you can think of as advisors. But hey, eternal suckers like Peretz like his "character", "soul" and "speeches".

April 25, 2008 2:14 AM

sleepyavl said:

dkiieger, I find Obama a repulsive demagogue.

April 25, 2008 2:16 AM

sleepyavl said:

Character is not destiny, but cliche is a sure sign of a fucked-up mind.

April 25, 2008 2:18 AM

sleepyavl said:

You guys don't take Peretz seriously. He's a fool with a loud-mouth. the bulb of a refrigerator is smarter than this shmuck.

April 25, 2008 2:21 AM

lymon1 said:

Um, people, if money talks, Marty thinks Scooter Libby has more character than Obama.  

April 25, 2008 2:58 AM

JackR said:

"Character is not destiny, but cliche is a sure sign of a fucked-up mind."

sleepyavl - I may have a "fucked-up mind", (doctorate and law degree notwithstanding), but I think you may be a little short on evidence.  Also on temperance.

In picking a President, I put character and leadership qualities above most particular policy positions.  I realize that Presidential aspirants are all flawed human beings, just as we are, but all flaws are not created equal.  Peretz' shortcomings don't matter to me one way or the other.  I was just glad to see the focus on character reflected in his post.

I am tempted to unpack my specific concerns around Hillary's character for the edification of you and some others, but it has been done to death, and at this late date I have liitle confidence that it would make an impact on what appears, on more than a modicum of evidence, to be your impervious train of thought.

Okay, here's one: does it bother you at all that Hillary, not unlike George W. and Nixon, seems unable to admit a mistake or fully apologize?

What the heck--here's another: do you regard it as sheer coincidence that the missing Rose law firm records miraculously re-appeared just a few days after the relevant Statute of Limitations had run out?

I have few illusions-- Obama is far from perfect and has made some really dumb mistakes, bittergate being the most egregious, but on balance, I prefer his flaws to hers.

April 25, 2008 9:57 AM

scire said:

jm- Ok, you might have a point, but  I don't completely agree. I think if he wanted to be president of the United States, he should have thought more closely about who he aligned himself with as his pastor. And I do agree, that it was politically expedient for him to join this particular church when he was in Chicago at that time. But from what I've also read, the United Trinity Church really isn't what it has been portrayed to be. On the other hand, one lesson Obama should be learning from this campaign,is that soundbites do matter. I think he naively thought he could transcend that (and we all hoped he would too) because his message has been against that. And it worked for awhile, and it no longer is. It's just the reality of politics. . Barack has let Hillary take control of the message. And it's been so long since we've seen his message. People are forgetting who he is and what he stands for.

I think he has a lot of talent. A lot. And I don't think he's really snotty the way some people above say he is. I just think that he's green. But maybe that's the lesson of this campaign. Maybe he really isn't ready yet. Unless he can show he is in the next couple of weeks by learning from this Pennsylvania experience.

Having conceded that, I really still cannot vote for Hillary Clinton. I won't. And those feelings pre-date this primary. They go way way back. And over the course of this campaign, she's just proved that my feelings were correct. And for me, it's a character issue. Integrity matters. It really does. And I cannot stand the thought of going back to the Clinton drama. I don't remember the Clinton years with the fondness or rose colored glasses that so many democrats do. For me, the Monica Lewinsky debacle, and the Paula Jones, etc etc etc were really degrading to this country  and to women. And they completely disillusioned me about the feminist arm of the party. And then the pardons at the end and the attempts to take things from the White House. They were just too over the top. There is one word that sums up the Clintons for me: Trashy.

Also, to all those people above who made personal attacks against Peretz, insulting his appearance, and/or using expletives -- it really undercuts your arguments. It's hard to consider opinions as coming from a thoughtful place when they are peppered with vulgarity.

April 25, 2008 10:20 AM

blackton said:

JackR, did you ever notice when Hillary makes a point she nods her own head very often, as though she is agreeing with herself? Such deep insecurity shows why she is so frantic now. People have called her the Democratic parties Bush, but she is far more like Nixon. Either McCain or Obama are vastly preferable to her.

April 25, 2008 10:38 AM

scire said:

Jack R and blackton: I'm with you completely.

April 25, 2008 11:23 AM

ironyroad said:

"For me, the Monica Lewinsky debacle, and the Paula Jones, etc etc etc were really degrading to this country  and to women. And they completely disillusioned me about the feminist arm of the party."

But what on earth did the feminist arm of the party have to do with Monica Lewinsky?  To the best of my knowledge ML wasn't a minor, was in full possession of her faculties, and was not subject to pressure and intimidation of any kind (at least until Kenneth Starr entered the picture).

One can be personally distressed, disgusted, angry or whatever with what happened between Bill Clinton and Lewinsky.  Fine.  But good old attractinon and desire can surface in the White House as much as in anyone's house (something that feminism might once have recognized, no?), and the polls continually showed Clinton receiving sky-high approval ratings even as people were pissed about what happened.  

It seems to me that to take the position that sexual activity between consenting adults is not a personal matter but something "degrading to the country" would be an odd tweak on a feminist position.

April 25, 2008 11:57 AM

mollysimon said:

Jim, could you please leave me alone?

April 25, 2008 12:42 PM

scire said:

Not point in arguing with you ironyroad about our points of view on the whole feminism thing and whether or not what he did was exploitative of women. This is one of those disagreements I've had with a lot of democrats that we just can't agree on. And we never will. Suffice it to say my position is a lot more "nuanced"  than my post.

But wouldn't you at least concede that had Bill Clinton been a Republican, feminists would have excoriated him over it? Or at least over Paula Jones?

And no, his sexual activity was not a personal matter because it took place in the Oval Office and he was president. Unfortunately, anything you do when you are president is not a private matter. Which is what made it degrading to the country. And it was in his house, which was totally degrading to his wife. And let's not forget he lied about it.

Which brings me back to why I don't like Hillary Clinton . . . .the whole integrity and lying issue that she shares with her husband. Instead of recoiling from his political methodology, she has embraced it.

April 25, 2008 1:26 PM

scire said:

Just like she has embraced Karl Rove's tactics. Which in and of itself should give any Democrat serious pause.

April 25, 2008 1:43 PM

sportdoc62 said:

sleepyavl:  "chooses the most fucked-up people you can think of as advisors":   Hillary's obsessive devotion to the fucked up Mark Penn isn't fucked up?

ironyroad:  How about doing some basic reading on the dynamics of workplace sexual harassment (see also the Jim and Molly interactions on this page)?  Then do a 10 page paper on how these dynamics might relate to more general (second and third wave) feminist issues.  It's due Monday morning at 8 a.m.  Good luck.

April 25, 2008 1:50 PM

ironyroad said:

sportdoc62:  I think I take your point, but I don't get the relevance of your point.  Where did sexual harassment come into it?  What I was arguing above was that -- leaving aside scire's position on the public/private deal implied by the role of the presidency -- both Clinton and Lewinsky were able to say no as well as yes, but they both appeared to have said yes.  You see this differently?

And I don't need 10 pages.  And good luck!

April 25, 2008 2:08 PM

bigfish said:

"To the best of my knowledge ML wasn't a minor, was in full possession of her faculties, and was not subject to pressure and intimidation of any kind."

ironroad, I think that you may have a point if ML and BC were on the same power level.  If ML didn't consent or was a minor, it would be an entirely different issue, because that would be rape.  However, the reason that Bill's and Monica's relationship was unseemly (aside from the adultary/infidelity point), is that there is a duel power relationship.  It's unlikely that BC could have massive power over ML ("Most Powerful Man in the World" vs unpaid intern) in the workplace but also not have that power, intentional or not, during their relationship.  It's the same reason therapists shouldn't be involved with their patients, college professors shouldn't get involved with their students, and pastors shouldn't get involved with their congregants.

April 25, 2008 2:44 PM

scire said:

YES Bigfish, THAT's my point! And Bill Clinton's power was magnified TENFOLD because of his position. And a professor, or store manager or therapist gets fired for doing the same. And kudos go to the feminist movement for making such practices unacceptable in the workplace.

Therefore,  my disillusionment with the feminists is that they stood behind him staunchly, and trashed Paula Jones. What hypocrisy.And they undermined their moral highground by doing so.

And what kind of creep brings his girlfriend into his house to have sex? Forget the disrespect  to his wife, what about the humiliation of his daughter?

April 25, 2008 3:20 PM

ironyroad said:

I think it was unseemly myself, but that doesn't change the fact that it was essentially a private matter between two people with no constitutional, legal, or national security issues involved.  In the case of therapists, there is an issue of confidentiality and conflict of interest.  In the case of professors with active classroom authority, there is the danger of abuse of grading and other things arising from that authority.  In the case of pastors -- well, we could go on.  It's clear that today we spend a lot of our lives at work, and indeed it may be our greatest commitment of time, even outweighing family life, and the mingling at work is going to produce desire, attraction, relationships, affairs, marriages, and everything that goes along with being spontaneous human beings and not programmed androids.

Presidents should not get involved with their interns.  But there's no evidence that the impetus came from Clinton, quite the opposite in fact.  Remember Lewinsky's "presidential kneepads" remark from before the affair began?  It seems to have been a shared thing for a while, and although it's true that the "public" power relationship is skewed massively in favor of the president, in a real intimate personal interaction between a 50-years old man and a 22-year old woman, my guess would be the woman has a hell of a lot of leverage.  I don't see the harassment, I'm sorry.

April 25, 2008 3:28 PM

ironyroad said:

In fact, I'd now reconsider what I said in the light of scire's last comment.  Not only am I less than convinced that the public power skew is to Clinton in any absolute way, I think that the danger of the liaison to him was TENFOLD (my, that felt good!) what is was to Lewinsky.  Call him a typical male entangled like a puppy in his hormones if you like, but he took massively greater risks in the whole thing.  Indeed, the development of events sort of confirms that, I think.

April 25, 2008 4:51 PM

scire said:

ok. well, like I said, we're never gonna agree on this point ironyroad, and it really digresses from the original post, so this'll be my last word on the subject (geez, I had no idea I'd engender this much discussion over that comment -- I merely said I wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton again partly for these reasons, but I never said nobody else should).

But everything you've said has only added to my argument -- who wants that back in the WHite House? Could you imagine the damage he could do with all that time on his hands, having to play second fiddle to his wife, combined with all that impulsive lack of control you attribute to his hormones? No thank you.

I do agree with you on one thing: It was inappropriate and an abuse of power, and showed an utter lack of regard for his child (who is a woman) but I wouldn't call it harrassment. I don't think I ever used those words. Although Paula Jones did.

April 25, 2008 6:22 PM

dkrieger said:

Feminists claim a woman's right to her own body and the ability to make up her own mind about who she wants to share it with. You infantilize Monica when you argue that she was not in a position to make a rational decision about whether or not to have a liaison with Bill because of the massive power differential between them.  

April 25, 2008 6:56 PM

ironyroad said:

scire wrote "I do agree with you on one thing: It was inappropriate and an abuse of power"

I said it was "unseemly."  I never said it was an "abuse of power" and if you think I said that, you didn't read what I said.  I am very skeptical that it was an abuse of power.  What I said was:

"in a real intimate personal interaction between a 50-years old man and a 22-year old woman, my guess would be the woman has a hell of a lot of leverage."

Power was distributed in certain ways across the Clinton-Lewinsky relationship that don't quite fit with your way of seeing things.

April 25, 2008 9:58 PM

matthawk said:

Frankly, I find it disturbing that Hillary Clinton keeps referring to this election as being about “historic firsts,” i.e. that if she is elected she would be the historic first woman president, and if Obama is elected he would be the historic first African American president.

I notice that the Obama campaign doesn’t do this, and I wonder why it is that Hillary does.

On one level, I believe that Hillary does it because she sees it as being in her strategic interest to do so. She thinks she can rally women to her side if she portrays herself as struggling against an army of unappreciative males who want to prevent her from getting her just rewards.

On another level, also strategic, I think that she figures that every time she calls attention to Obama’s “blackness,” even in supposedly flattering terms, she can marginalize his appeal, especially to the white working class constituency that she covets so much, and that still harbor deep suspicion toward, and resentment against educated and successful blacks.

Finally, on a much more existential level, I think this is who Hillary really is. Beyond all of the strategies and tactics of political positioning, deep down inside Hillary is incapable of thinking outside of the box of deeply rooted partisanship (“My way or the highway”) and the politics of identity (“Everyone is just another special interest group to me”).

She truly believes that what is most in it for her is all about being the “historic first.”

April 26, 2008 11:53 PM

sleepyavl said:

Sportdoc62: you are right about Hillary and Mark Penn. Penns is a crook. But Obama's people are far more than crooks. And I mean Zbigniew Brzezinski first of all.

April 28, 2008 12:27 AM

butchie b said:

No, dkrieger, feminist claim that a woman has the right to her own body, blah, blah, when it suits them.  When it doesn't, they are perfectly happy to cite massive power differentials to make a politicial point.  To wit, it's terrible for powerful men to use that power to leverage women into doing what they want her to - unless it's Gov. Clinton and Paula Jones, for instance.  Then it seems to be OK, just fine, move along, nothing to see here.

April 28, 2008 2:03 PM

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