"In any case, Israel has indicated that it won't permit Richard Falk to enter its sovereign territory or cross its territory, for that matter. I suppose the only way he could then get in would be on the law of the return."

I should hope he is kept out.

The man is either ignorant or dishonest. In any case, he is a Jew hater.

The Jewish British lawyer Anthony Julius has written a penetrating essay on the origins and meaning of "Jewish" anti-Zionism. It's long and it comes in two parts but its really worth reading:

Here is Part 1

"Jewish Anti-Zionism Unravelled: The Morality of Vanity" (Part 1)

www.z-word.com/.../jewish-anti-zionism-unravelled%253A--the-morality-of-vanity-%2528part-1%2529.html

And here is part 2:

www.z-word.com/.../jewish-anti-zionism-unravelled%253A-questioning-antisemitism-%2528part-2%2529.html

Why is TNR bundling its products? I want to read the good, reasoned content but I don't want my money to go to this zealot who argues by assertion and is too lazy to criticise on substance:

"This hater of Israel"

"dishonest ill-wishers"

"the U.N. is a fraud ... its agencies are partisans of whatever Arabs seem to be on top"

Who is this directed at? Clearly not an educated thoughtful readership, which is the market segment the rest of TNR appeals to.

Why do Peretz and others still consider Richard Falk a Jew?! I thought the racial criterion went out the window some time ago. As for the halachic definition of a Jew, few of us seriously adhere to halacha (traditional religious law), so why do gentiles and non-traditional Jews still use that definition? Falk neither identifies with the Jewish people in either their religious or national dimensions. He has clearly left the religious fold and the tribe.

To whom is your post directed at, jerkaboy?

Most of the Spine readers have no problem with calling a hater of Israel "a hater of Israel."

Princeton was always full of querulous blowhards anyhow.  Apart from Einstein, that is.

You mean if I spout racist anti-semitic nonsense I can get a cushy and prestigious job at the UN too? Who does the hiring there? I guess they empty the pysch ward at Bellevue so the patients can do their day job at the UN.

jackson, I was talking about TNR readers. The Spine uses a fanatical rhetoric that distorts the brand. It just doesn't share any core value with the other TNR blogs. There should to be check-box for the Spine when ordering the subscription, or the Spine becomes a separate website altogether.

Bellevue or some brina dead Swiss:

Jean Ziegler was also appointed to the Human Rights Council there:

www.unwatch.org/.../content2.aspx

"Apart from Einstein, that is." ironyroad

Ah those were the days.

One wishes any of these "HUMAN RIGHTS" clowns could perform a simple arithmetic problem or tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

Not too much to ask, is it?

jerka..

you nailed it. The Spine - or Grudge Report - is only marginally connected to the larger tnr community. This hardy crew of about 5-10 regulars, reconnoitered by jackson on an almost quarterly hour schedule, is almost a cell within a cell. It does not realy align with the other blogs.

And really, that ain't such a bad thing. I find the Grudge Report amusing and enjoy the periodic spats, cage fights, shamelss displays of petty grievances, feral lack of civility and proper upbringing,  and Tourette like unfolding of the usual idee fixees. It has some solid entertainment value and these days, that's sayin' something...

" This hardy crew of about 5-10 regulars..."  thejauntyboulevardier

of which JB is a prominent member afflicted with all the supposed negative qualities he complains about in others.

"unfolding of the usual idée fixees..."

Yea, like not countenancing antisemitism of other forms of bigotry.

Now, there is an idée fixe for you.

I...eh...actually, no forget it.

hee, hee..jackson, you slay me...

I am of thee...I never claim otherwise.  Bystander = hardy crew member....

the few, the proud...I am proud...ain't you?

jackson, speaking of forms of bigotry, can you not see the anti-arabism behind peretz' entries?

glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/.../meaning-of-marty-peretz.html

try making the same statements about jews and see which bigotry is countenanced

I am actually a little sad about this.  When I was studying in Cairo Falk came to give several lectures on globalization, and I found them interesting and devoid of prejudice or general whack-jobbery (he wasn't even playing to the largely Arab crowd with Israel, that I recall.   I admit I hadn't known to much about him before or followed him since, so I can't say if those three days were an abberration or before he declined.   I got a chance to interview him for a couple of hours, and found him a very bright, thoughtful, pleasant man.   I think reasonable people can disagree about this or that point regarding Israel, but some things are far too much, and to blame Sept 11th on the CIA is delusion of the highest order.  

But jerkaboy is right about Marty- statements such as these: " No one will claim him, perhaps not even his mother. But that I don't know. Maybe she was lucky and didn't live to see her wunderkind in his infamy." are ugly and not needed.  

Off topic on this thread but on topic for The Spine.

Jane Kramer has a well-reported article, "The Petition." in the current issue (April 14 - not online) of The New Yorker. The article describes the scurrilous fight against offering tenure to Nadia Abu El-Haj an anthropologist at Barnard. The article shows clearly that this fight had nothing to do with the quality of the academic work of Nadia Abu El-Haj, which her peers viewed as excellent, and everything to do with attacking anyone who does not follow a particular line regarding Israel. This article is their indictment.

Some readers of The New Republic may remember that Nadia Abu El-Haj was the victim of scurrilous accusations by many Islamophobes and false friends of Israel including Martin Peretz who wrote several blogs about her in the period when she was offered tenure. I would urge everyone to read The New Yorker article and then The Spine article.

The comments start with MrCookie1 writing:

-- I urge you to read Larry Cohler-Esses' article in the 11/12 The Nation. He maintains that these charges are not true and claims to have researched every one.

and pretty much end with jacksondyer writing:

-- put a sock in it, mrcookie, hypocrite.

blogs.tnr.com/.../yet-another-columbia-disgrace.aspx

The Kramer article gives us an opportunity to compare the reality of a heavily fact-checked story - and we all know the New Yorker actually does fact checks, right - with a Spine blog and comments. That comparison makes it plain that the accusations by Martin Peretz and his acolytes were without foundation and were scurrilous.  I believe, although I could not find it, that I made a single comment pointing out that Nadia Abu El-Haj had won a prize from her professional organization for the book that caused her all the trouble. Other than that the only commentator to come out well from this story was MrCookie1. The Spine acolytes disgraced themselves.

This story is not as Martin Peretz puts it "Yet Another Columbia Disgrace" it is yet another example of The Spine disgracing itself.

Jerkaboy - interesting and compelling link about TNR and The Spine.

Reading that old Spine thread made me realize how great MrCookie really is and how pointless the rest of the commentators are. They just parrot everything the dear leader says. Sad.

First, Einstein was at the Institute for Advanced Study, located in Princeton, NJ, but not the same as Princeton University.

Second Falk was a leading thinker and proponent of international law norms at the time of the Vietnam War. Some of us respect him for his courage in speaking out at that time.

Third, over the course of the long post-67 occupation, there can be little doubt that Israel has engaged in a number of violations of international law, as understood and interpreted by legal scholars around the world, including some in Israel itself and many in the US. That is certainly not to say that Israel's adversaries have clean hands (they certainly do not). Nor is it to suggest that political self-interest and realpolitik do not play a role in discussions and determinations of international legal norms and their applications (they certainly do).

Although I suspect I know more about Falk than do most of the commentators here (I have read some of his work, heard him lecture, and had several conversations with him--almost all on other subjects), I do not know his record on Israel/Palestine matters sufficiently to pass any informed and careful judgment on  it. But I think the overheated nature of this discussion (and associated name calling) would benefit from a bit more knowledge and specificity.  --The Wise Bard

The official abstract for the Jane Kramer article on Nadia Abu El-Haj is at:

www.newyorker.com/.../080414fa_fact_kramer

The actual text of the article is, uuum, here:

www.richardsilverstein.com/.../the-petition.pdf

I would urge anyone interested in The New Republic to read the New Yorker article and compare it with the Spine version of the same story at:

blogs.tnr.com/.../yet-another-columbia-disgrace.aspx

The New Yorker article is an indictment of Martin Peretz and his faithful acolytes.

Richard Silverstein makes comments on the Jane Kramer that implicitly refer to ths Martin Peretz blog:

--I never thought of this analogy until just now, but it appears to me that what Campus Watch and Paula Stern did was akin to the Terry Schiavo circus. In the latter case, a group of religious fanatics with a vested interest attempted to intervene in both a personal family tragedy and a medical process out of which they should’ve kept their noses. Their effort demeaned the family involved and dragged the field of medicine into a political arena in which it had no business being. I’d argue that the Schiavo fiasco contributed significantly to the Republican defeat in the 2006 elections.

-- The Abu El Haj detractors have paid no such price. In fact, they’ve gone on to new targets of opportunity in their propaganda battle on behalf of Israel. But articles like Kramer’s and efforts like mine help shine a light on such smearmongering so that it may be discredited even more firmly the next time it rears its ugly head.

www.richardsilverstein.com/.../the-new-yorkers-kramer-takes-on-abu-el-hajs-pro-israel-defamers

And so Martin Peretz goes from target to target never paying any price for smearing so many people - just as his acolytes pay no price for smearing anyone willing to point out their moral failure.

"First, Einstein was at the Institute for Advanced Study, located in Princeton, NJ, but not the same as Princeton University."

I stand corrected.  And retrospectively withdraw my "except for Einstein" qualifier.

Dear Irony, I'm grateful for small favors.

Princeton has been good to me

--The Wise Bard

jerkaboy said:  "jackson, speaking of forms of bigotry, can you not see the anti-arabism behind peretz' entries? "

This is old stuff, jerk. We have already filled a couple of threads responding to it.

Whatver Marty's sins they don't begin to compare with the hateful antisemitic comments made by some members of the so called UN human rights council.  These people have real power they are supposed to upholds everyone's human rights and not to attack people who are defending themselves from daily rockets assaults, suicide bombers and who have sworn to kill Jews.

Read what Ziegler and Falk wrote and talk about that and don't try to change the subject.

Leave that to Jew haters like mackenzie.

ironyroad said: "I stand corrected.  And retrospectively withdraw my "except for Einstein" qualifier"

So what is left of your original ironic comment Irony?

Nazi mackenzie is trying to hijack this thread and turn it into a discussion about a lame article in the New Yorker.

Go talk about it at the New Yorker we site, asshole.

No problem.  Indeed, let me rephrase myself:  "many querulous blowhards but also a few authentic scholars and gentlemen such as Weisbard."

Here is more documentary information about Jean Ziegler:

www.unwatch.org/.../Controversy%20about%20J.%20Ziegler.pdf

Hey Iggy, I sure as hell don't parrot everything Marty says, I had some fun with him on the Dubai thread. But I sure as hell am not going to apologize for being pro-Israel. And anyone who says 9/11 was a US government conspiracy is a whack job. Nor do I think it is particularly relevant what anyone here says, just because it is in cyberspace and is accessible to all doesn't mean more than we small handful even care or even access it. Even if Marty is 100% wrong about Falk, where really is the harm, even if I take Marty at his word that Falk is a villain. I sure as hell am not going to seek out Falk to give him what for.

Here is more on Jean Ziegler.

This article is from a British leftst website:

"Appointment with farce

The election to the UN Human Rights Council of a man who has served as an aide to a dictator is a scandal"

by Alan Johnson

"In the present state of the world it is difficult not to write lampoons," remarked the Roman poet Juvenal. The author of The Satires came to mind last week when I heard of the decision of the UN Human Rights Council to elect Jean Ziegler to its advisory committee by 40 votes to 7.

All advisers to the council are supposed to possess "expertise in human rights", "high moral standing", and "independence and impartiality". So how does Jean Ziegler measure up?

In 1989 - four months after Libya bombed Pan Am flight 103, killing 270 people from 21 countries - Ziegler launched the annual Muammar Qaddafi Human Rights Prize in Tripoli, boasting it was the "Anti-Nobel prize of the third world". Winners have included Fidel Castro, Louis Farrakhan, and a leader of a Ba'ath party women's organisation in Saddam's Iraq. In 2002, the recipients included the convicted French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy, and Ziegler himself.

In 1986, Ziegler acted as an adviser to the Ethiopian dictator Mengistu, helping draft his one-party constitution. In 1993, Le Monde reported on "Jean Ziegler's trip to visit Saddam Hussein and Kim Il-sung."

Ziegler proclaimed "total support for the Cuban revolution" shortly after Fidel Castro had imprisoned many journalists. While visiting Cuba as a UN official he refused to meet Cuban dissidents but lavished praise on Castro...."

commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/.../appointment_with_farce.html.printer.friendly

He'd make a great human rights defender, almost as good as Falk.

Blackton, I'm winding up the usual suspects, and I don't include you. Of course I don't. Your wit and intelligence make you a joy to read, even when I think you are seriously wrong, like on the I/P issue.

I'm pro Israel as well BTW. Not that you'd belive me, but it's hard to see anything amongst the smoke and mirrors on this blog.

Now, I've just finished watching "In the name of the fada". Des Bishop an Irish American comedian goes to Connemara to the Gaeltacht to learn Irish. He's from the same hood as you in NY Blackton and it's a great programme. Very funny and poignant. You can see one of the episodes here: www.rte.ie/.../av_20080320.html

Enjoy Zion nazi!

blackton writes:

-- Even if Marty is 100% wrong about Falk, where really is the harm, even if I take Marty at his word that Falk is a villain.

The problem is that Martin Peretz frequently slanders people and these slanders actually do cause harm - that is, of course, their intent. As Richard Silverstein points out in his comments on the Jane Kramer article in the current issue of The New Yorker I referenced in an earlier post:

-- The Abu El Haj detractors have paid no such price. In fact, they’ve gone on to new targets of opportunity in their propaganda battle on behalf of Israel. But articles like Kramer’s and efforts like mine help shine a light on such smearmongering so that it may be discredited even more firmly the next time it rears its ugly head.

If you really believe that people like Martin Peretz do no harm with their scurrilous slanders I suggest you read the Jane Kramer article describing the effects of just this kind of attack. The article can be found at:

www.richardsilverstein.com/.../the-petition.pdf

Nazi mackenzie and ignorant unfunny bigot are back in form.

In a blog post titled "The New Yorker takes aim at the Zionist Thought Police," Daniel Sieradski writes:

-- In fact, despite the mounting evidence that the highly visible actions of militant pro-Israel activists are far worse for Israel’s public image than anything taught by post-colonialist Islamic studies professors, I’m quite sure that individuals like those mentioned in this article will persist to defend Israel and the Jewish people by engaging in character assassination against Israel’s critics (the hallmark of such slanders being willful misrepresentation). This, rather than patiently and thoughtfully addressing the substance of their arguments, and in doing so, perhaps even righting some wrongs. This, while the world gazes in horror at the inanity of such antics, and grows evermore in its revulsion towards Israel, Zionism, and the Jewish community.

The type of character assasination described by Jane Kramer, Richard Silverstein and Daniel Sieradski is precisely that of Martin Peretz. In just the last couple of blogs he has taken on Richard Falk, Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu. There is no intellect behind these attacks just thuggery.

To the Irish ignoramus who wants to trade insults:

Try this one ignobigot:

www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/.../programme_3495.php

IRELAND'S NAZIS: Ireland's Nazis (Part 1 of 2)

Sun April 27th at 11:00pm

"This documentary addresses a controversial and frequently overlooked aspect of Irish history. In the aftermath of the Second World War, the country provided safe haven to a number of Nazi collaborators and war criminals. Protected by church and state, many made their homes in Ireland, or used it as a staging point for escape to America.

Veteran broadcaster Cathal O’Shannon conducts a unique and comprehensive exploration of these uncomfortable issues. O’Shannon has a personal interest in this story. During the Second World War, he was a member of the Royal Air Force. When he returned to Ireland following the defeat of the Axis powers, he became increasingly uneasy regarding the attitude of Irish political decision makers towards former Nazis.

In the first instalment of his two part series, O’Shannon examines the horrendous deeds of Andrija Artukovic, the Nazi Minister of the Interior in Croatia. Responsible for the deaths of over 1,000,000 men, women and children in concentration camps, Artukovic’s time in Ireland is still shrouded in mystery. The Department of Foreign Affairs refuses to release his file, while the Irish public remain unaware that such a man once resided in their country.

O’Shannon also delves into the activities of Celestine Laine, the former leader of Bezen Perrot, a Waffen SS unit responsible for the torture and murder of civilians in occupied Brittany. He also looks at the gruesome actions of Pieter Menten, who was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Jews in Poland.

O’Shannon asks why the Irish government was prepared to harbour men such as Artukovic and Laine, while simultaneously refusing asylum to many Jewish refugees. He talks to historians and other experts, uncovers government documents and investigates the thorny issue of anti-Semitism in twentieth century Ireland. "

The Daniel Sieradski blog on Zionist Thought Police can be found at:

orthodoxanarchist.com/.../the-new-yorker-takes-aim-at-the-zionist-thought-police

mack and others,

I read the article yesterday and the perspective that Kramer painted was almost diametrically opposed to the few blogs that peretz posted about this professor. This really does get down to the issue of trustworthiness and whom can an innocent Grudge grubber really believe?  I don't want to say that I never trust peretz on stuff like this but I never, ever take his word as gospel. This New Yorker piece certainly begged the question of Spine objectivity.

What probably bothered me most about that whole sordid story was how that Segal character, after spending months trashing someone who he never actually met, tried to act like nothing happened when he actually met her. I strongly sense that this is how guys like Segal - and perhaps peretz? - respond. Trash someone but when it is time to face that person, they act like nothing happened. If I were this woman, I would have kicked him in his useless nuts and ground my 3 inch spiked heel in his face. But, alas, I am not civilized nor an intellectual. Friend Luis will probably get all mad at me but I hold to a simple faith: You fuck with me and mine, be prepared to suffer some kind of consequence. That all these people can elide any real reprecussions for what they did to this woman is appalling. Segal better hope her brother isn't as barbaric as me...

"The Abu El Haj detractors have paid no such price..."

This isn't a thread about el haj who should have been disquilifed from teaching for producing substard and politically motivated work.

This is a thread about Falk, Ziegler and the UN human rights council, so called.

Now get the fuck out of here, nazi prick.

Just to put Jane Kramer's ignorant rantings to rest (it really doens' belong here), this isn't the first time she has written an article (a renat really)  that wasn't fact checked:

from a Catholic webiste:

www.the-tidings.com/.../difference.htm

"The New Yorker spins the pope  

The New Yorker was once famous for the ferocity of its fact-checking and editing. No more. "

"The "nice Wojtyla/nasty Ratzinger" trope is a cartoon, period. Anyone who hasn't come to grips with what John Paul II wrote about Islam isn't in a position to comment seriously on the differences in approach --- which certainly exist --- between the two popes.

A similar lack of research, or so one assumes, distorts Ms. Kramer's reading of Benedict's approach to Islam. Ms. Kramer makes no reference at all to the Pope's address to the Roman Curia last December, in which he suggested that the interreligious dialogue of the future focus on assisting Muslims who wish to assimilate the best of the Enlightenment (like the institutional separation of religious and political authority) by developing the resources of their own religious tradition."

It seems that Ms. Kramer has got a thing for poor "oppressed Islamicists."

Her article on El Haj is even more problematic. Her view of  Edward Said alone is enough to condemn the article as innacurate.

In any case, let's get back to the UN "human rights council."

yes, the zionist thought police is out to get yoru mama, Neil Nazi Mackenzie.

Mackenzie and the Nazi posting police is trolling the web to find some stupid Jew's website to hide behind.

"Segal better hope her brother isn't as barbaric as me..."

He must be shaking in his boots, the big bad cookie is baaaaaaaaack!

From Daniel Sieradski blog on "Zionist Thought Police:

"We are, after all, dealing with people who view the martyring of Norman Finkelstein as a proud victory rather than as a shameful public relations disaster."

now they feel sorry for Norman F.  Public relatins disaster among whom? Probably his pro Hezbollah friends:

volokh.com/.../1199742796.shtml

"A vocal American critic of Israel met Monday with a senior official from the militant Hezbollah group and visited villages in southern Lebanon that witnessed heavy fighting in the 2006 war between the guerrillas and the Jewish state.

Norman Finkelstein, who resigned last year as a political science professor at DePaul University in Chicago, met Hezbollah's commander in south Lebanon, Nabil Kaouk, in his office in the coastal city of Tyre.

He visited the border village of Maroun el-Rass where heavy fighting between Hezbollah guerrillas and Israeli troops took place during the two side's 34-day war in the summer 2006, according to the state-run National News Agency and Hezbollah's Al-Manar television.

Finkelstein also toured the border village of Aita al-Shaab, the location from where Hezbollah guerrillas triggered the war after they crossed the border, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two others in hopes of trading them for Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails, according to the report....

"After the horror and after the shame and after the anger there still remain a hope, and I know that I can get in a lot of trouble for what I am about to say, but I think that the Hezbollah represents the hope." ..."

HEZBOLLAH, THE HOPE, NOW THERE IS PUBLIC RELATIONS VICTORY FOR YOU!

But then volokh too must be part of the "zionist thought police." And Feinkelstein and his friends are what? Probably part of the Hezbollah thought police.

Ah, jacksondyer - the Fuhrer of the Spine's Thought Police

No man is an island. From Wikipedia:

-- As a German scientist, still in his 20s and early 30s, von Braun was pivotal in Germany's pre-war rocket development program and was responsible for the design and realization of the V-2 combat rocket during World War II. After the war, he and some of his rocket team were brought to the United States through the then-secret Operation Overcast. In 1955, ten years after entering the country, von Braun became a naturalized U.S. citizen.

-- Von Braun worked on the American intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) program before joining NASA, where he served as director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that propelled the Apollo spacecraft to the Moon [2]. He is generally regarded as the father of the United States space program, both for his technical and organizational skills, and for his public relations efforts on behalf of space flight. He received the 1975 National Medal of Science.

-- In November 1937 (other sources: December 1, 1932), von Braun joined the National Socialist German Workers Party. An Office of Military Government, United States document dated April 23, 1947 states that von Braun joined the Waffen-SS (Schutzstaffel) horseback riding school in 1933, then the National Socialist Party on May 1, 1937 and became an officer in the Waffen-SS from May 1940 to the end of the war.

-- On August 15, 1944, von Braun wrote a letter (Ref 2) to Albin Sawatzki, manager of the V-2 production, admitting that he personally picked labor slaves from the Buchenwald concentration camp, who, he admitted 25 years later in an interview, had been in a "pitiful shape".

thejauntyboulevardier, some day hopefully you will learn to post on topic and not just on your obsessions with "Segal."

In the meantime take  mackenzie to launch to talk over your common hatreds of Peretz, Israel, Zionists, Jews, etc.

Just don’t do it here!

" Ah, jacksondyer - the Fuhrer of the Spine's Thought Police"  Nazi mackenzie

And mackenzie is the anti-Peretz Fuhrer.

The Jew hater probably meant “Zionist fuhrer.” In any case, policing mackenzie’s thoughts is an arduous task indeed. No one as far as I know has ever accused him of having any. If someone can find a thought that is truly his let me know.

So far all we get are half backed quotes from self declared “Jewish blogs” who post what others have posted without digesting its meaning.

"No man is an island. From Wikipedia"

This is supposed to be an answer to the post about Ireland taking in Nazis.

What a dumb reply. Had the Irish been able to show that the Nazis they admitted enhanced their defense or even their economy one might have understood it! It would still have been wrong, but at least they could have claimed that it was for the “good of their country.”

As it is the only explanation is pure and naked anti-Semitism, or was it perhaps pro-Nazi sympathies?

Let’s not forget the President of the Irish Republic signed the condolence book after Hitler killed himself.

Interesting though, how the people who accuse Israelis of being like Nazis end up defending countries that harbored Nazi murderers. This is typical of leftists antisemites like mackenzie.

Now he is going to look for some stupid and cowardly “Jewish blogger” under whose skirt he can hide.  

jack,

you are rather unhinged today. Hatred of peretz? Jews? Zionists? This is almost a caricature of your already well formed caricature. Crazy shit...

Oh and by the way, Kramer did not defend or defame Said in that piece. She did a good job of reporting on his work, why it caused controversy, and how, even now, people cling to their animus towards him. She did not say it was bad or good. Perhaps you should read the article before your rants.

As for lunch with mack, sure. I have lunch with all kinds of people. I would like to have lunch with any tnr poster. I think they're all interesting. Spine people, especially you, really intrigue me. I'd even pay just to see you in the flesh. After all these years and all these rants, I have built up quite an image in my head. It would be a life's work to see if reality fits with imagination. Do you have thumbs? How long are your fangs? Would your spittle fly or spritz across the room? Would you have the balls to call anyone a prick face to face?  Do you have marty's mug tattoed on your arm? Ah yes, these are the unknowns. Shall we ever know?  

Jack, I'm hitting the sack but before I go: What is with your obesession with that narrow timeframe of our history? You've posted about it, every month for years now. Is that all you got? Dev's neutrality? Jesus, that's pretty lame.

Look, drop over, first round's on me.

I'll drive you to Aras an Uachtarain in the larget walled urban park in Europe (third largest in the world, by Jesus boy) and then you'll see your ambassadors residence across the road, surely one of the finest in the world, built in 1776 no less - irish-architecture.com/.../american_residence.html

And from there we'll go to one of the many Dublin Synagogues which form a part of the SECOND OLDEST Jewish community in the British Isles (althogh the term British Isles is incorrect) dating from around the 1660's. www.jewishgen.org/.../dublin.htm

In short Jack.

Good night.

Jerka, if you're still there, I checked out that Greenwald post to which you linked.  First off, he manages to completely mis-characterize what Marty wrote, by paraphrasing him with the words "breed like rabbits."  Marty was simply making a point that less educated people in third-world countries tend to have more children.  So what?  This is hardly dehumanizing, though Greenwald is drawing the intellectually sleazy conclusion that Marty feels revulsion at their rates of reproduction.  I personally feel a revulsion--only because I can't imagine why an impoverished person would want to bring seven or eight or nine children into the world when he or she can't support them.  The Palestinians are not alone in this trend.

In fact, a correlation has been found between the wealth and education of a demographic its birthrates.  Hence Europe's population problem.

If this is what Greenwald is calling Marty's Islamophobia, he's going to have to try harder.  

Now, does Jerka refer to your preferred nocturnal activities--or is it much simpler than that?

Ig, I'm not going to even bother replying to your classification of Spine readers as a bunch of Marty worshipers.  Let's just say you come to our church quite often.  Have no fear:  None of us are much interested in converting you, boychik.  

Jaunty:  "Cling to their animus."  Not that you're bringing any value judgments here.  Now, if you're talking anus . . . .

By the way, nice to see you back at Spine.  Are you on Spring Break?  Couldn't go to any of your suggested restaurants when we were in your neighborhood this winter--long lines don't mix with eight-year-olds.  But I certainly thought about you. No fear:  Nice thoughts only.   You sure can irritate me, but I don't think there's a mean hair on that big brown ass you love to tout.

I hope we wildebeests (straight out of Where the Wild Things Are) haven't scared Weisbard away.  He seems pretty cool.  

Although there was and is a nasty strain of anti-Semitism in Ireland, and De Valera was a kind of obsessional formalist when it came to diplomatic procedures, there was a lot more going on under the surface during WW2.

The military and intelligence cooperation between the Irish Free State (as it was then) authorities and the U.S. and Britain was considerable.

All crashed German pilots were interned for the duration of the war, while British and especially American aircrews were often allowed to slip back over the border into Northern Ireland (hence to the UK).

Irish counter-intelligence was also smarter than it was given credit for, and a couple of captured German agents were played back via fake radio contacts (they thought they had a guard on their side in the prison).  

There seems to have been a real clash of personalities between De Valera and David Grey the U.S. ambassador, but it didn't affect a lot of operational stuff that went on despite formal neutrality.

thejauntyboulevardier said:  "jack, Oh and by the way, Kramer did not defend or defame Said in that piece. She did a good job of reporting on his work, why it caused controversy, and how, even now, people cling to their animus towards him. She did not say it was bad or good. Perhaps you should read the article before your rants."

I read the article.

"Reported on his work" could mean a lot of things. She didn't do justice to the strong case against him. In fact had he not been taken up by leftist academics his work would never have been noticed. He made it all that much easier to politicize the academy.

As a scholar of Middle Eastern history and culture he was pretty medocre. This isn't just a political opinion it's a fact.

Most of Said's defenders are English dept Professors who know very little about Arab culture.

Here is a critique of Said from a more objective point of view:

"Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism"

by Ibn Warraq  

The book was written by a liberal former Muslim who has to keep his identity secret because he is afraid he will be killed. Check out his bio on wikipedia.

"Book Description"

"This is the first systematic critique of Edward Said's influential work, Orientalism, a book that for almost three decades has received wide acclaim, voluminous commentary, and translation into more than fifteen languages. Said’s main thesis was that the Western image of the East was heavily biased by colonialist attitudes, racism, and more than two centuries of political exploitation. Although Said’s critique was controversial, the impact of his ideas has been a pervasive rethinking of Western perceptions of Eastern cultures, plus a tendency to view all scholarship in Oriental Studies as tainted by considerations of power and prejudice.

In this thorough reconsideration of Said’s famous work, Ibn Warraq argues that Said’s case against the West is seriously flawed. Warraq accuses Said of not only willfully misinterpreting the work of many scholars, but also of systematically misrepresenting Western civilization as a whole. With example after example, he shows that ever since the Greeks Western civilization has always had a strand in its very makeup that has accepted non-Westerners with open arms and has ever been open to foreign ideas. The author also criticizes Said for inadequate methodology, incoherent arguments, and a faulty historical understanding. He points out, not only Said’s tendentious interpretations, but historical howlers that would make a sophomore blush.

Warraq further looks at the destructive influence of Said's study on the history of Western painting, especially of the 19th century, and shows how, once again, the epigones of Said have succeeded in relegating thousands of first-class paintings to the lofts and storage rooms of major museums.

An extended appendix reconsiders the value of 18th- and 19th-century Orientalist scholars and artists, whose work fell into disrepute as a result of Said’s work.

About the Author

Ibn Warraq is the highly acclaimed author of Why I Am Not a Muslim and the editor of The Origins of the Koran, The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, What the Koran Really Says, and Leaving Islam. "

www.amazon.com/.../ref=sr_1_1

Did she mention him?

In fact the article is a hatchet job. She caricatures every critique of el Haj while romanticizing her and her defenders. Her view of Said is cursory respectful, incomplete, and wrong.

And if I meet her I will tell her so to her face.

What you said is probably true, ironyroad. However, how do you explain their refusal to grant assylum to "too many" Jews during WW2 while taking in known Nazis after the war?

I am not saying mind you, that they were worse than other European countries at the time, but its ridiculoous for some Irish guy to try and pretend that Ireland was never antisemitic which gives him the right to trash Israel.

I would hazard a guess that more Jews died because Ireland and England didn’t want to take in more Jews or allow them to settle in Palestine during WW2 than all the Arabs and Jews died fighting each other since the 1930’s.

The Ignorant Populist said:  “And from there we'll go to one of the many Dublin Synagogues which form a part of the SECOND OLDEST Jewish community in the British Isles…”

Now tell me about this:

“Limerick Pogrom: The anti-semitic boycott in Limerick in the first decade of the twentieth century is known as the Limerick Pogrom, and caused many Jews to leave the city. It was instigated by an influential intolerant Catholic priest, Fr. John Creagh of the Redemptorist Order.”

Molly,

hey, no fair. Next time you come to SF, call me. I am in the book and I love to show people around. Having dinner with you sounds very tantalizing. You, of all the Spine folks, really intrigue me. No weird vibe fear not. I am married and in no position to throw it all away for a mad fling with a woman of tnr mystery but really, next time you come here, call me. You won't regret it.

Jackson-

-I just wanted to say, he said.  Ireland, they say, has the honor of being the only country which never persecuted the jews.  Do you know that? No.  And do you know why?

-Why, sir? Stephen asked, begining to smile

-Because she never let them in, Mr Deasy said, smiling

A coughball of laughter leaped from his throat dragging after it a rattling chain of phlegm.  He turned back quickly, coughing, laughing, his lifted arms waved to the air.

-She never let them in, he cried again through his laughter as he stamped his gaitered feet over the gravel of the path.  That's why.

On his wise shoulders through the checkerwork of leaves on sun flung spangles, dancing coins.

The point?  Ireland, like any other country, is capable of producing shame and brilliance.  Don't caricature it based on a distasteful moment.  

jerkaboy, before talking poltically corect bullshit, why don't you take the trouble of reading Richard Falk's positions? I know, it's hard to think before you speak - but maybe you can do it.  If anything, Peretz is to kind to Falk.

jack, don't worry about Neil D Mackenzie, the fucking jerk also called nazi-ndmackenzie. You know these student activist types - mediocre students who rarely do better than cultural studies and, after failing calculus, go into student politics. How could they not become anti-Semitic? The jerk needs a cause.

boneill, I agree with you. Ireland is a fine place. Everyone makes mistakes.

boneill, I agree with you. Ireland is a fine place. Everyone makes mistakes.

Iggy Pop - we're not all Peretz Parrots here. Many of us who have our (various) differences with Marty nonetheless come back to El Spino because we're cut from the same obsessive cloth as he is. Those who "love not wisely but too well," as another Wise Bard put it. I share Marty's loves for straight talk unfiltered with BS, classical music, Arielle Dombasle, raising children well, high academic standards and the role that immigrants play in elevating academic and professional achievement generally in this country. But unlike MP I like, not love, Israel and do not swoon over Justin Barack Timberlake.

I'll keep coming back, though, because I'm fundamentally as crazy as he is.

OK Spinesters, it's Friday so I wish you all well, as does ratty.

Teplukhin, I doubt that you could parrot anyone, even if you tried.

Jack, even special ops Sleepy is defending me. If you don't call off your Zionist dogs of war on our pokey little island then I'll fund a Sleepy coup and call it a blow for freedom. Bone's drinking during the day again, but he has a point. Apart from us, no one's perfect.

Thanks, boneill, for the Joyce quote. I am familiar with it and I am not saying that Ireland is worse than any other Euro land. I just brought it up in the context of Ignoble's mean spirited and ignorant harping on about Israel.

"But unlike MP I like, not love, Israel and do not swoon over Justin Barack Timberlake."

Tep, most of us here don't swoon over Barack. In fact, I think he should stay in the Senate and let Hillary get the nomination. He is young and he can run again in four or eight years.

In any case, my feelings for Israel go beyond loving or liking as I know what it would mean to the Jewish community world wide if the Jewish people did not have a homeland.  

No one is defending you Ignobigot. You just don't know how to read and seem to get everything wrong. I am surprised you even learned to type.

Someone must be turning on the computer for you in the morning every day. Tell the truth you work as a janitor at some library which is how you access to a computer and to TNR.

off topic but:

... In fact, I think he should stay in the Senate and let Hillary get the nomination....

Really?

Getting back to the thread topic:

Here is a couple of articles from the Canadian National Post:

"Going after Israel (again)"

National Post  

Published: Wednesday, April 09, 2008

www.nationalpost.com/.../story.html

"In theory, the United Nations Human Rights Council, established in March, 2006, was supposed to correct the failings of its farcically biased predecessor, the UN Human Rights Commission. The now-defunct commission, whose membership included at one point or another such champions of human rights as China, Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Syria and even Sudan, spent most of its time criticizing Israel for alleged crimes against the Palestinians while conveniently overlooking the (actual) crimes against humanity being perpetrated by its own members.

Unfortunately, but perhaps not unexpectedly, the UN Human Rights Council has followed the same path: By the end of its first year of existence, the council had passed nine resolutions condemning Israel -- and had not spoken out against another country. In June, 2006, it voted unanimously to establish a special rapporteur on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a resolution sponsored (surprise, surprise) by the Organization of the Islamic Conference. Later this year, law professor Richard Falk will assume that post.

Mr. Falk comes to his new job with a decided prejudice against Israel. In his writings, he has repeatedly criticized the Jewish state for waging what he calls a "holocaust" against Palestinians. Indeed, in 2007 he published a paper entitled, "Slouching toward a Palestinian holocaust."..."

Slightly off topic but no as much. Can't resist:

www.democratiya.com/review.asp

on a book on Said by the son of one of my best friends, who has written other things on Said as mentioned in the short bio at the end of his review and also easily accessed.

Hmmm

www.talkleft.com/.../41085

Here is the second article:

"Jonathan Kay on the bigtory of Richard Falk, the UN's new anti-Israel hit man"

"Yesterday, the National Post ran an editorial denouncing the UN Human Rights Council's decision to appoint anti-Israel activist Richard Falk as its "special rapporteur" on the Palestinian territories. But it wasn't until today that I actually read, in detail, the Princeton University professor's views on Israel — as encapsulated in this charmingly titled 2007 article "Slouching toward a Palestinian Holocaust."

Here's the nub of Falk's article:

"It is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust’ … [But] is it an irresponsible overstatement to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not."

Later in the article, Falk accuses Israel of having "genocidal tendencies," and calls the international response to the situation in Gaza "morally far worse" than its response to the 1994 Rwanda genocide (death toll: 800,000) and Srebrenica — despite the fact that there is not a single recorded instance of Israel implementing a program of deliberately killing civilians in Gaza, let alone mass murder. The article concludes by declaring that "To persist with [Israeli policies] is indeed genocidal, and risks destroying an entire Palestinian community that is an integral part of an ethnic whole. It is this prospect that makes appropriate the warning of a Palestinian holocaust in the making, and should remind the world of the famous post-Nazi pledge of ‘never again.' " What a scandal to imagine that this ignorant ideologue is the expert in whom the UN HRC has entrusted its fact-finding in Gaza and the West Bank.

In fact, notwithstanding his shrill opinions, Falk clearly doesn't actually know anything about Gaza and West Bank. If he did, why would he write something like this: "For over four decades, ever since 1967, Gaza has been occupied by Israel in a manner that turned this crowded area into a cauldron of pain and suffering for the entire population on a daily basis"? Anyone who knows anything about the history of the region will realize this is complete garbage. As Prof. Efraim Karsh of King's College, University of London, wrote in a devastating 2002 essay for Commentary Magazine, the Israeli presence in Gaza marked an unprecedented period of socioeconomic development in the area. It is worth quoting in detail (perhaps someone at Princeton will even be so kind to print it out and put it on Falk's desk:...."

network.nationalpost.com/.../jonathan-kay-on-the-bigtory-of-richard-falk-the-un-s-new-anti-israel-hit-man.aspx

Actually Jack, I'm a hygiene consultant if you must know, with responsibility for two main floors. one of which is the Managing Directors. Furthermore, I give him stock tips when I clean his shoes in the morning and he tips me everytime. That's everytime Jack. Your point?

Good link lymon 1: thanks.

Now that I think about it, Iggy, Ireland didn't let me in either a couple of weeks ago.  

And Jack thanks too for your energetic provision of relevant links.

Thanks for the link, Itzik. I am regular reader of Democratya but most people here probably never heard of it.

Still, let's stay on Richard Falk and the human rights council, so called at the UN. Some people here have already tried to derail the thread from this topic because they don't want us to focus on it.

This is why some Israel haters post here.

I tipped them off Bone. I forwarded a Spine thread onto customs and immigration. They were shocked at the anti-Europeanism and naked anti-Mick pathology, plus they probably thought you were some homeless man who broke into the airport and was just lonely.

You should have snuck them a packet of Lucky's.

Seriously, did you actually go to Airport Bone, and they wouldnt' let you in?

Boneill:  Thanks for that  beautiful passage.  Been years since I even looked at Joyce.  A perfect selection.

Tep:  I couldn't have said it better about why I come to Spine.  Though I'll leave Dombasle to you and Marty.  I'm just not that into her.

"Justin Obama Timberlake"--very funny.

Boneil, thanks for that  beautiful passage.  Been years since I even looked at Joyce.  A perfect selection.

Tep,  I couldn't have said it better about why I come to Spine.  Though I'll leave Dombasle to you and Marty.  I'm just not that into her.

"Justin Obama Timberlake"--very funny.

Last time I stumbled upon one of these threads, I thought you were all nuts... then someone informed me that every few months or so this becomes a predictable slug fest with all sorts of name calling back and forth.

Have fun guys... now I know you are all nuts.  If this passes for rational discourse, next time I won't have to read any of it...

Richard Falk: what the hell is there to say? Peretz is right on this one, even if his rhetorical excess is excessive. That's him in one big imperfect lump. But again his central point is indubitable.

I noticed that sleepavl has jumped into the fray to show off the modicum of intelligence God granted him. He was all but mentioned by name in the Judith Kramer article on Barnard, Columbia and Nadia Abu El-Haj - an article that is a total indictment of sleepavl and those who share his mentality.

-- As many as a third of Barnard's students and a quarter of Columbia's undergraduate students are Jewish. "I like to remind people that we are a Jewish-friendly institution," Judith Shapiro [Barnard's President] told me. "We are not victims. This is not the most dangerous place in the world for Jews right now." But for the more sheltered of those students it may also be their first experience of a community where Israel's policies are discussed and challenged, rather than endorsed de facto; where Muslim students share their classrooms and Muslim professors, or professors they assume are Muslim, teach them. They are often alarmed at the shock of free speech that is not their own. Many of them come to Columbia from small Jewish day schools where, as Jacob Kriegel, a pre-med senior who went to one of those schools, told me, "the Israeli position was reinforced."

www.richardsilverstein.com/.../the-petition.pdf

This description of the young naif at Columbia/Barnard fits sleepyavl to a T. There is no doubt that sleepyavl is "often alarmed at the shock of free speech that is not [his] own."

here is mackenzie again with another lame brained comment and another vile attack on her betters.

Sleepyavl is of course right and mackenzie's quote is besides the point:

"As many as a third of Barnard's students and a quarter of Columbia's undergraduate students are Jewish"

This has nothing to do with the issue of el Haj's qualification as a scholar.

Mackenzie is so desperate that she even changed Jane Kramer's, the New Yorker's article’s name to “Judith Kramer to make it sound more Jewish.

Mackenzie is a vile and lying bigot who is doing his best to hide his true feelings about Jews because he knows he can’t get away with using terms like “zio-nazi” here as he can on some British website. Still his irrepressible antisemitism shows up from time to time as it did here.

In any case, his bringing up of the Jane Kramer’s biased and badly written article is another attempt on his part to derail the thread away from the issue the UN  human right’s council antisemitic anti-American and totally bizarre appointments.  

"Richard Falk: what the hell is there to say?"

Lots to say, Itzik.

We can ponder the whole phenomenon of subverting human rights for political ends as well as the way antidemocratic forces and antisemites have tried to use it to attack Israel.

..Lots to say,..

You're right.

boneill :

I tried to post something here before that never landed.  Its gists : I wanted to thank you too for the Joyce quote, which reminds me of his beyond description brilliance, note the wisdom of the point animating it,  and to say that for me and my wanderlust daughter Ireland is a place we idealize in our heads--never having been there--and promise ourselves to get there one day, for sure.

I'm so ignorant, I didn't realize that was Joyce Bone. (see name tag) Cool quote.

Basman, I'm welling up here, beautiful stuff.