Well and succintly put, Marty!

I am happy for Kosovo and look forward to the day it joins the EU.

Marty, are you suggesting that Palestinians are not "ready" for independence? When will they be? Who will tame these so called 'beasts'? Or are you arguing the Kosovans are? Either way, your world view is called into question. This concept of "ready" / "not ready" for nationhood is ludicrous and only contains minorities into subhuman status.

"Marty, are you suggesting that Palestinians are not "ready" for independence? When will they be?"

Of course the Palestinians are not ready for independence. That does not make them subhuman. It makes them incapable as a people of being independent at this juncture. They have two governments (barely) governing in two separate territories.

The Palestinians, as Marty will point out often, have no coherent nationalism. The loyalties of Palestinains lie in either destroying Israel or destroying the clan to which they do not belong. They are a fragmented society who do not have a realistic endgame for their people.

By contrast, the Kosovars are 100% ready to set up their own free, democratic country.

The division between Gaza and the West Bank only illustrates how unready they are for independence. In Gaza there's a totalitarian terrorist regime, of whom the population is afraid. They rule there by the tips of their guns and nothing else.

In the West Bank there's a dummy government that can't rule unless the IDF is present there and protects it from a repetition of what happened in Gaza.

What kind of readiness is this?

Being shielded by their "enemy" to hinder the more dangerous enemy is in other words not being ready or capable of ruling.

And even if the West Bank could rule its own territory, how would it join with the Gaza strip? Unless we're talking about two Palestinian states, of course.

In reality only the Gaza hoodlums are in control of their territory. Provided they get their independence along with a steady supply of electricity, water, medications, food, clothes, etc . etc. from Israel.

60 years after their self-inflicted tragedy, and they have achieved one big nothing in any field (except murder and theft).

They can thank the UN and all the donating countries for having consistently educated them for 60 years how to do nothing but spread destruction wherever they happen to be.    

They can also thank their own leaders for having encouraged this life style all along.

BTW, it's too late to announce their independence now. They'd already done it. On November 15th 1988 Arafat unilaterally declared an independent Palestinian state, whose capital is Jerusalem. The Palestinians have been celebrating their imaginary state on November 15th each year ever since.

How many times can a state be declared a state?

That's how they'd like to have their independence: have Israel continuously breast-feed them, kill as many Israelis as they can, and call it an independent state.

An intriguing package deal.

rozenson describes a whole race of people:

>The loyalties of Palestinains lie in either destroying Israel or destroying the clan to which they do not >belong.

babigail continues:

>they have achieved one big nothing in any field (except murder and theft)

So to conclude: we apparently have a whole race of people that is motivated only by destruction and does nothing but stealing and murdering.

One question:

If this were true about a people, I don't think the eradication of it would be problem, would it?

jerkaboy, eradication?

So far the only ones who talk about eradication are various Muslims, Palestinians included, and the eradication they talk about is of Israel.

Race? Can every national group be assigned a race now? What race would that be in this case? The Palestinian race?

What did you expect, jerkaboy, a list with the names of all the Palestinians who are bent on destruction and murder? Or rather a shorter list, with the names of those who are not?

I take your answer as yes, you would have problem with it, because not all Palestinians (although a majority) are murderous. Correct?

There are fanatics in both camps who call for the eradication of the other. When you make blanket statements about a whole race/nation/people like that, you lend a hand to those fanatics. In fact, based on your characterizations, it doesn't even sound fanatical to eradicate the Palestinians, if you believe in the capital punishment.

All I expect is that you don't demonize a whole people. In other words, my expectations are quite low on you.

jerkaboy, us supporters of Israel don't have to demonize the Palestinians.  They have done a quite effective job of demonizing themselves over the last four decades.

"There are fanatics in both camps who call for the eradication of the other."

1. There are no Israelis who call for the eradication of the Palestinians/Arabs  

2. There are fanatics in Israel. They are estimated as 5-10% of the population. Their fanaticism is expressed by their support of Greater Israel, and they are against a Palestinian state. Not for any eradication of anyone.

3. The overwhelming majority of the Palestinians support murderous leaders, who are opposed to any kind of settlement.

4. The overwhelming majority of Israelis support peace negotiations if and when such negotiations are possible. They have proved it time and again in general elections.

5. I happen to be against capital punishment as part of the juridical system. The Israeli code does not include capital punishment, except for Nazi criminals. In the history of Israel one single man has been executed: Eichman.

6. I have no means of conducting a coherent discussion unless I refer to the Pals and Israelis, also to the French and Dutch, English, Swedes, etc. by using one word. This is not demonization. It's just the normal way people talk.

7. I am not for any kind of eradication of any nation or "race" as you call the Pals.

8. However, I'm for preventing mass murders in Israel at any cost.

Let me just make it clear that I personally am a Jew, and a strong supporter of a democratic jewish Israel.  Nevertheless, (and I'm glad this became the topic) i find it troubling when we start referring to the Palestinians as "those people". I make no apologies for their leadership, and the various terror groups inside the territories, but it sounds cold-hearted and downright scary when we just say "The Palestinians" want to murder us. Babigail, just search for Kahane and "They Must Go" and you will find your bunch calling for the eradication of the Palestinian people. My main argument is that if "they" are not ready, then when will they be? I believe it should not be a question of ready, but HOW they are going to get there. Many people in this thread have already commented on how much of an uphill struggle its going to be, and that's a welcome argument.

I don't believe I'm about to defend the despicable vile Kahane, but not even he spoke of eradication. If I'm not wrong, his dream was transferring all the Arabs from his holy land.

Sorry, but it tires me to keep restricting this term Palestinians. I'll just call them Palestinians, at the risk of generalizing, anonymizing, and demonizing. No one seems to have any scruples about using the word Israel or Israelis, not to mention America and Americans, in extremely negative connotations. I have no intention of endlessly repeating the fact that when we talk about a nation we generalize.

They are not ready for independence because they are incapable of ruling themselves. Incapable of maintaining a real economy, of creating infrastructures, of holding up a health system, and education system, etc. Incapable of having a "de facto authority".

The Pals are almost 100% dependent on external donations of many kinds.

What independence are we talking about here?

As I've mentioned they have declared their independence a long time ago, and then have reconfirmed it. If you're talking about a declarative level of independence, then we're there. It's done.

So the answer to "when will they be" is:  when they exhibit effective capabilities and control over themselves.

>60 years after their self-inflicted tragedy, and they have achieved one big nothing in any field (except murder and theft).

This is demonization by any standard of definition. Who in his right mind would say Israel bares no responsibility for the tragedy? (Or the British, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Syria for that matter.) And it's not the normal way people talk!

>The overwhelming majority of the Palestinians support murderous leaders, who are opposed to any kind of settlement.

Thanks, this is already an improvement.

>There are no Israelis who call for the eradication of the Palestinians/Arabs

Granted, no one openly calls for this. But I'm sure there are individuals also in Israel -- soldiers, e.g. -- who sometimes think it's "best to kill 'em all." The more demonizing and black-and-white the prevailing rhetoric against Palestinians get, the more encouraged these individuals will feel.

Interesting thread. I've been following your exchanges carefully, and more often than not the disagreements appear to be on semantic issues. Is it OK to use terms like "those people" or "the Palestinians", "the Israelis", "overwhelming majority". Bon, we get the point.

What do you think of the emotional element of this issue? Clearly, for many people, Jew/Israeli or Muslim/Arab alike, mention of the Middle east will stir passions that express themselves without regard for logic or sense of reason. I would like to see people being more honest about where it is they are coming from, and why they are motivated to argue along a particular line.

Personally, I view the Palestinians as a tragic people. A sad population that has been left behind while the rest of the region advances. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say the chance of their achieving independence is about 2.

Bab, you are absolutely right when it comes to the terms "Israeli" or even "Zionist" for that matter. I have spent a lot of time with people who are highly critical of the Israeli government, but they say that "Israelis" and "Zionists" hate the palestinians. I obviously have trouble with that generalization because my personality is then trapped between a rock and a hard place. I know you think thats just how it is, but if we all refrain, or at least think critically, when we use generalizations then maybe the Pro-palestinians and Hard-line pro-israelis will recognize that there are people like me on both sides. And isn't that what we want? Won't a politics that refrains from generalizations (even though it takes longer to say what you mean) lead to a more lasting solution to the situation?  ...recognizing the humanity in another group? I desparately want pro-palestinians to recognize my views as an element of thoughtful and human zionism. Likewise I'm sure there are palestinians who want the same thing out of us.

It is the normal way people talk, unless you wanna force them to produce name lists.

what is this?! "Who in his right mind would say Israel bares no responsibility for the tragedy? (Or the British, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Syria for that matter). Huh? What is this habit of putting the responsibility of one's own stupidity on everyone else? It's both immoral, coz everyone, Pals included, has to be responsible for his failures, and coz that's the main reason the Palestinian entanglement never ends.

I will NOT talk this way: "The overwhelming majority of the Palestinians support ..."

I will say the Palestinians, and you'll understand that I mean the majority.

OK? This is how it'll go.

So now Israelis are accused of wanting to eradicate all Palestinians coz you're imagining what they're thinking as well? What next? Any plans on penetrating their dreams and then putting them on trial in  the Hague?

daschaer, do you really believe that parroting these reservations (majority, overwhelming majority, most, etc) would change anything for real?

I don't think so, and it seems to me not only longer to say, but a heavy and clumsy way of talking.

You cannot avoid generalizations. This is how we talk. In fact, whenever you utter any adjective - you generalize.

Human verbal/textual communication has settled with generalizations, and we all know that there are exceptions to every group-noun we use.

BenMuller, I also view the Pals as tragic. Heart breaking, to tell you the truth. Captives of crazed leaders who doom them to this perpetual state of hopelessness.

I can't even bring myself to blame the population. What can they do? They've been brainwashed from day one, and they don't know any better.

Their cynical leadership doesn't give a damn about them.

A trapped nation.

They make me extremely sad and my heart aches for them.

And the worst of it is that it could all be so much different... they could have flourished and bloomed all along. They could have been the diamond of the middle east. Easily.

babs, molly, why bother? some people will parse every statement to the nth degree to somehow derive at some "gotcha" moment where they feel smug about themselves. jerkaboy certainly has chosen a fit moniker. And no, I am not Jewish so this is not what I am sure jerkaboy is thinking now as he read it. Does jerkaboy have any solutions, anything to say besides mockery? I doubt it. As to myself I have expressed my opinions tons of times. And to return to the original point of the thread. I am happy for the independence of Kosovo and wish them every success. I suppose that makes me anti-slav, never minding my slavic ancestry.

blackton, you're right of course. I keep falling into these pits. This must be the 3rd time at least that i've given my generalization speech.

OK, never again. promise.

Where is my dear molly? I haven't seen her on this thread! How come you've referred to her?

must be part of the conspiracy against Jews! They don't show me molly!

Molly!!!! Can you see me here? Hellooo!

Marty, they've done it again!

babigail, right. you know I must have read one of your posts just after reading Molly on another thread and her name stuck. I am sorry I guess. I guess this makes me a sexist pig for getting you women mixed up. anyway, there is nothing really wrong with getting to wonderful and insightful ladies mixed up is there? how is that? am I off the hook?

Ohhh, you sure are! I'm taking upon myself to say this on behalf of molly as well!

music to my (our) ears...

ahhhh wonderful and insightful...

what more can a woman ask for!

Ok, this is my last post on this.

Yeh, generalizations are practical to speak but cumbersome to follow. Let's sum up your descriptions of Palestinians:

- murderous (applies to electorate/leadership)

- stupid (applies to...?)

- brainwashed (applies to all minus leaders)

- solely culpable for their own tragedy (applies to...?) but

- can't blaim them (applies to "the population")

Clearly, your point may not get across as you intended if you say only "the Palestinians" each time.

I think one should remember that we are all human beings and we should be careful to make swiping condemnations of large groups of other people. Especially when there is such a need to find a way to co-exist.

Boy oh boy, jerkaboy.

Sorry, I didn't make it...

I think it was on the 2nd of those cerebrally challenged summing up points that my head hit the desk - boom - and I had the sweetest half an hour of sleep in years.

When I woke up however, my eyes accidentally fell on that "we are all human beings" phrase, and my whole skin broke out into a rash like you wouldn't believe.

You see, I don't do "we are all human beings", but how could you have known that, right?

In fact, I was exempt from "we are all human beings" as far back as elementary school.

Doctor's orders.

Oyoyoy, now that I've actually typed the forbidden words, my eyes and nose are starting to run...

I know! It's unbelievable!

I have to rush and take my anti-saintine and anti-preachine pills, and of course my anti-righteoustine and anti-pietine syrups, or this will end in the emergency room.

quick quick.

See you later jeraboy!