Here is another point: black kids, I have read, going to HBCUS have higher rates of graduating, doing science, going to graduate studies--including in the sciences-- and going to professional schools--law, medecine  and the like--than those going to the ivies specifically and those generally going to schools under the aegis of affirmative action.

Interestingly enough,  I read their book 2003 No Excuses, even though I strongly disagreed with their politics, I was curious to read their take on the racial gap.  In fact, if I am not mistaken, didn't Nathan Glazer review it in tnr?  Anyhow, I found some of it interesting - especially the anecdotes about the successful charter schools...I wonder how those schools are doing now? - but their full throated support of Bush and NCLB and their standard conservative line that generally, schools can improve without more money and the resources that money can buy, weakened their argument and did not make a believer out of me.

I found thejauntyboulevardier post quite persuasive (without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with his views) this is because education is his field and he knows what he is talking about.

I too found it interesting that Black colleges as Basman said “have higher rates of graduating, doing science, going to graduate studies--including in the sciences-- and going to professional schools--law, medecine  and the like--than those going to the ivies specifically and those generally going to schools under the aegis of affirmative action.”

I know that some women have claimed that all women colleges have also had a more beneficial influence on their graduates than do co-ed colleges.

These views are a challenge to those who believe that more multiculturalism and diversity is the answer to all our social ills.

"These views are a challenge to those who believe that more multiculturalism and diversity is the answer to all our social ills. "

Jack: a question: are these clustering type of schools consistent or inconsistent with mult-culturalism(--I'll leave diversity out of it for now)?

I would have thought they are consistent with it and stand against "out of many, one", a bedrock of progressive liberalism. If multi culturalism is to mean something beyond, as Allan Bloom used to say, folk dancing in quaint and charming costumes, it must mean the insitutionalization and/or the enclulturation of separateness. Surely these clustering schools are both of those.

"Jack: a question: are these clustering type of schools consistent or inconsistent with mult-culturalism(--I'll leave diversity out of it for now)?"  basman

You have asked a very difficult question, Itzik. Here is my short answer.

From the point of view of society at large, these all women and Black American colleges are consistent with a certain understanding of multiculturalism.

From the point of view of the School itself, though, they are culturally homogenous rather than multicultural institutions since they serve a narrow segment of the population and exclude everyone else.

This is why I would forego the whole issue of multiculturalism which I see as hopelessly contradictory. Whatever one calls these institutions of learning I support their existence. As long as these colleges teach a liberal arts curriculum which draws from the best that has been thought, discussed and written in our culture I believe that they offer their students and invaluable service and prepares their students to become active participants in our national culture.

I also have no problems with these schools including programs in some other language and studying other cultural heritages along side their liberal arts offerings.

My problem with multiculturalism is that it’s an incomprehensible and contradictory dogma which has become buttressed by bureaucratic thinking.

"Jack: a question: are these clustering type of schools consistent or inconsistent with mult-culturalism(--I'll leave diversity out of it for now)?"  basman

You have asked a very difficult question, Itzik. Here is my short answer.

From the point of view of society at large, these all women and Black American colleges are consistent with a certain understanding of multiculturalism.

From the point of view of the School itself, though, they are culturally homogenous rather than multicultural institutions since they serve a narrow segment of the population and exclude everyone else.

This is why I would forego the whole issue of multiculturalism which I see as hopelessly contradictory. Whatever one calls these institutions of learning I support their existence. As long as these colleges teach a liberal arts curriculum which draws from the best that has been thought, discussed and written in our culture I believe that they offer their students and invaluable service and prepares their students to become active participants in our national culture.

I also have no problems with these schools including programs in some other language and studying other cultural heritages along side their liberal arts offerings.

My problem with multiculturalism is that it’s an incomprehensible and contradictory dogma which has become buttressed by bureaucratic thinking.

"From the point of view of the School itself, though, they are culturally homogenous rather than multicultural institutions since they serve a narrow segment of the population and exclude everyone else"

That is how the school maybe see it, but it sounds like the esence of the consequences of multi culturalism

"My problem with multiculturalism is that it’s an incomprehensible and contradictory dogma which has become buttressed by bureaucratic thinking."

Agreed, and is also inconsistent with America's creedal foundation.

I have, I must admit, conflicted feelings about the idea of all Black colleges, which is to say I'm  pulled in different directions about it and I differentiate in my own thinking among gender based schools, religiously based schools, and racially based schools; and it's the latter that gives me pause for thought.

There is a controversy in Toronto now about whether to have all black public schools and Ontario's liberal government--read left of centre democrats, or third wayers  with a social safety net if you like--has just taekn a policy position against them that I agree with. But all the black colleges in your country have an entirely different historical tradition and context. And I think on balance I would lean toward keeping them, but for me--and I am not entirely informed on the issue- its knotty.

p.s. One day we will have a cup of coffee and talk about these and other things face to face. I think the Starbucks just around the corner from me is mid-point between Toronto and Boston, mais non?

Cookie/JB, let me take strenuous issue with the "schools won't improve without more money" theory of education you propound.  Exhibit A:  The DC public schools, which spend about $13K per pupil and produce dreck.

It's not that money doesn't matter at all, but that it matters FAR less than you think.  Much more important are committed parents (yes, two-parent families generally come out ahead), a longer school day and a longer school year.  The success of the KIPP schools is testimony to all these points, and they don't spend anywhere near the public schools per pupil.  Catholic schools historically have done the same.

If money is that important, do what Michigan did, and spend the same per pupil across the state.  Yes, wealthy school districts will still have more, but poor districts will have a LOT more than they have now.  Then test your hypothesis.  You live in CA, right?  Get Arnie on that one, ASAP.

butchie,

Allow me to be more precise...increased spending on education and per pupil is obviously not enough but suggesting that schools, as a whole, cannot improve without money is off base.  

Next time I see Arnie - and since I have never seen him this may be a long time - I will pass that on.  Did you know that I am a lot taller than Arnie.  He is actually only about 5' 9" or 5' 10" at most.

butchie and jaunty

An old gorgeous pal of mine used to sit on the governor's face in the old, old days. do you want me to ask her to facilitate an intro.

An intro to her or to the Governator?

“I have, I must admit, conflicted feelings about the idea of all Black colleges, which is to say I'm  pulled in different directions about it and I differentiate in my own thinking among gender based schools, religiously based schools, and racially based schools; and it's the latter that gives me pause for thought.”

In as much as racially based schools are about race, I think they are a bad idea. However, and I think you would agree, the Black Colleges in the US because they have a different historical tradition and moreover they do as far as I know admit non Black students are an exception to the rule. Ultimately, to me it’s not about who goes there, but about what they teach. If a Black college teaches a mainstream liberal arts curriculum that includes the sciences, and Sophocles, as well as Ralph Ellison in literature then I have no problem with it. If however, a College teaches only about “Black power,” Malcom X and oppression of Blacks instead of science and mathematics then I don’t believe such a college would survive for long.

Still, let’s remember that in a free society anyone can set up a college. All they need is money, and students willing to sign up. The State can intervene in questions of accreditation and if there are physical facilities in questions of health and building code maintenance.

Ultimately, it’s the market place that will determine the viability of a College.

“p.s. One day we will have a cup of coffee and talk about these and other things face to face. I think the Starbucks just around the corner from me is mid-point between Toronto and Boston, mais non?”

Mais oui,  Itzik, one day.

Still the charm of the internet for me isn’t the chance it gives people to meet face to face, but the ability to communicate seriously and anonymously about serious issues without the interference of egos. This is why I have been resisting people like Cookie who seem to be here in order to make friends and influence people. To me such behavior negates what is best about these blogs.

That people at some point may want to get together in order to get to know each other is understandable in some cases, in the main though anonymous serious discussion is the rule I like to follow.

Anyway, I will probably at some point in the future travel to Canada. We (my wife and I) have been to Toronto in the late 70’s early 80’s to visit friends and it would be fun to return. When we do I will let you know well in advance. In the meantime let’s keep this conversation going anonymously as long as possible.

Tep:

The governator, sorry to say.

Itzik

Jack:

As you say!

jack..

Interesting perspective.  In my experience, almost all people are social creatures and have been hard wired to talk, socialize and get together.  I see nothing wrong with that, nor do I see anything particularly virtuous in confining blogging to anonymous, hard edged debate. But, as they say, it takes all kinds to make a world.

And, to be honest, given your style of posting, it is best that you do stay anonymous and far away from those you choose to insult.  

Bas, you can call me anytime.  Next time though, give me a bit of a head's up so I can work out the logistics and family details.  I regret that I could not make that Saturday when you and Mrs. Bas were in town.  

jaunty: will do and thou likewise if time and chance permit!

Jauntster, of course money is important, but the other factors are much MORE important.  The trouble is, the debate over public education, and its collapse in the US in many areas, is always about money, and usually only about money.  Which does a complete disservice to the hard thinking necesaary to improve public education for the great mass of students.

No, I always thought Arnie was taller than that, like 6'2" or so.

Yes, I know, America is a racist country just like we always thought it was. Right? Well, actually, wrong