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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
13.11.2007
Harvard, Censorship, and Anti-Semitism

 "Professor J.L. Matory will move:

That the Faculty commits itself to fostering civil dialogue in which people with a broad range of perspectives feel safe and are encouraged to express their reasoned and evidence-based ideas."

This is docket item VII.2. for the regular meeting of the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences scheduled for today, Tuesday, November 13.

The proposed resolution is innocuous enough, even insipid.  But why is it being proposed?  The agenda helpfully adds an "explanatory note:"  "The context for this motion is outlined in an opinion piece by Professor Matory, 'Israel and Censorship at Harvard,'  which was published in the Harvard Crimson on September 14, 2007," just as school started.  J. Lorand Matory is Professor of Anthropology and African Studies at Harvard.

This article explains a lot, and in several dimensions.  I've met Matory just once and only perfunctorily, at that.  At a begin-the-year cocktail party for Harvard's Afro-Am Department to which, as it happens, I have made several not very grand contributions. (In fact, I hold a W.E.B. DuBois Medal from the Department, an award I was reluctant to accept since DuBois had been a fervent Communist. But friends persuaded me what actually I already knew, that he had a more intricate life than simply being a Communist and was a mind of very unusual stature.  In the end, I feel more than honored to have this prize.)   As for Matory, I don't recall how he looks, and I am reasonably sure he doesn't recall what I look like either.  Still, I know Matory's reputation, especially among his colleagues, one of whom dismissed him as "simply a crackpot."  

He's also an obsessive.  And one of the people with whom he is obsessed is Larry Summers.  This obsession, one would think, had reached its satisfying fruition when a prior resolution introduced by Matory, a withdrawal of confidence from Summers as the president of Harvard, passed and resulted in the latter's resignation.  There are four direct references (and at least two indirect allusions) to Summers in the Crimson piece.  If it is aimed against anybody in particular the person in the cross-hairs is Summers.  If anybody's right to "express their reasoned and evidence-based ideas" has been violated it has been Summers.  First, in a resolution introduced by Matory himself and passed by the F.A.S. that directly made a certain view of things verboten and pushed Summers out of his job. Second, in the scandal perpetrated by the Board of Regents at the University of California by withdrawing an invitation for Summers to speak at one of its meetings.  

But for Matory, it appears, that Summers's primal sin is defense of Israel.  In public speech, that amounts to one assertion: that the efforts to have American universities disinvest from corporations doing business with Israel is "anti-Semitic in their effect, if not their intent."  This campaign in the United States and ones like it elsewhere are, in my view, both anti-Semitic in their effect and their intent.  You only have to read the fiery language, see the flaming eyes and try to understand how this effort galvanizes its supporters to see that it is the fact that Jews now have power that so offends them.  Power to everybody.  But no power to the Jewish nation.  That is for me anti-Semitic.  Now, not everyone who believes that about power is anti-Semitic.  There are some misguided people, many of them Jews altogether remote from any sense of Jewish community or culture, who want the Jews to take up their traditional role of being the suffering witness.  Forgive me, as a great Yiddish poet once pleaded with the Almighty, "take away our holiness." Of course, much of anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic.  Why else would people all over the world find Israel so tempting a target?

Matory's credentials for pressing a resolution "fostering civil dialogue" are non-existent.  In what must be a mock sympathy for the unmatched grim experience of the Jews in the last century, he asks, "How can one engage in a critical and nonetheless loving conversation about Zionism with a community as gravely traumatized as the Jewish people?"   The Jewish people's answer to the trauma of the twentieth century and to the ongoing, virtually constant trauma of the previous centuries was the political answer of sovereignty. Yes, Jewish power.  In the conflicts in Palestine, Zionism triumphed.  But not without having agreed to a state for the "Arabs of Palestine" -- no one, yes, no one called them Palestinians -- alongside its own.  A tragedy befell those Arabs.  The surrounding Arab states wanted to carve up Palestine for themselves, which is why what remained in their hands after the 1949 cease-fire was the West Bank, simply annexed by Jordan, and Gaza, turned to a rightless satrap of Egypt.  Forty years ago, these countries, plus Syria, which had been deprived of Palestinian left-overs, attempted to dismember the Jewish State within the armistice lines.

The truth is that Matory is ignorant of both the history of Zionism and the history of Palestine.  These histories are nuanced and intricate, and it seems that Matory has not tried to grasp either one.  The Zionist he sees is a stick-figure cartoon of exploitation.  Now, poor man, he also admits hardly knowing one Arab.  He could; it's very easy in a university, after all.  There are Arabs at Harvard, are there not?.  Did he not ever encounter Edward Said, the progenitor of exactly the ideas which he puts forward as his own?        

Matory does make a stab at being even-handed.  

I am troubled by the insouciance of the Arab and Muslim world in the face of unjust suffering by people who   look like me.  A region so publicly committed to its anti-racist religious tradition remains mute over the atrocities of the Arab and Islamic government of Sudan against Africans in Darfur and the south.  Osama bin Laden and his cheerleaders treat as insignificant the deaths of hundreds of non-partisan Africans in the bombings of the U.S. embassies at Nairobi and Dar es Salaam.


But it is neither being mute or insouciant about Darfur for which the Muslim and Arab worlds are guilty.  They are complicit in the enormities, more even than People's China.   I feel solidarity with Matory and his murdered kins.  (TNR has been among the most consistent, ultimately lonely, yet politically realistic voices for Darfur.)  Why has he no solidarity with me and my dead sisters and brothers?  The fact is that thousands of innocent and non-combatant Israeli civilians have been murdered by Palestinian "freedom-fighters."   J. Lorand Matory has no feeling for these women and men.

So he has sponsored an insipid resolution.  If, however, it passes it will be an insidious act, that of trying to shut down the voices of those who see the intellectual and moral crime of anti-Semitism becoming fashionable and respectable once more.  And not in Germany, mind you, but in the U.S.  

Posted: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:28 AM with 65 comment(s)

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mollysimon said:

Marty--what happened to the talkback in your post on Dershowitz and torture?  It's now just "slicing salami" over and over again.  Was this an attempt to censor?  If not, why hasn't it been restored?

November 13, 2007 11:50 AM

thejauntyboulevardier said:

Peretz,

Fascinating post, long and unless you know the participants, hard to know what's what.

In my career, I have had two experiences with this kind of formalized resolution/request; once when I was a teaching staffer, and the other when I was a member of an administrative team. Both times the resolution was primarily motivated by the abusive, bullying, dominating behavior of a single individual rather than a frontal attack on the concept of free speech per se.

Both times, I opted out of endorsing the resolution.  Why?  Because I told my colleagues that I preferred a more direct feedback mechanism, namely, I just told the jerk that he was being obnoxious and trying to bully the group.  The imprimatur of the group certainly gives one a level of safety but I always think that being direct - but within a certain tact - is best.

So, it is possible, absent a real knowledge base of this particular situation, that there may be many explanations for this kind of resolution.  Sure, it could actually be a thinly veiled attack on expression of support for Israel. No doubt about that.  Or, on a less global plane, it could be that this guy feels that there are one or two people out there who are menacing or trying to shut him up.  

Anyway, I really don't like this formalized group resolutions, irrespective of its intent.  You got something to say, say it and say it to the people directly, not from behind the false security of a goverance board shield...

November 13, 2007 12:36 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Mollysimon - the ways of the cens- er moderators are a mystery to more than yourself. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the deletions and omissions other than administrative chaos and a lack of anyone on the second TNR shift ie after 6pm EDT. (Third shift? Fugeddaboutit.)

November 13, 2007 12:53 PM

ndmackenzie said:

The article by J. Lorand Matory is precisely the type of article that a New Republic genuinely interested in a heterodoxical view of “politics and the arts” should be publishing.  I have seen many articles in The New Republic criticizing US policies, its politicians and its cultural mores but  I have never seen an article even remotely critical of Israel. This represents a deep intellectual and moral failure for the magazine.

November 13, 2007 12:59 PM

teplukhin2you said:

OK, mack - if TNR agrees to publish one non-ranter critic  of Israel bi-fortnightly, will you agree to go away, forever?

November 13, 2007 1:07 PM

ndmackenzie said:

I see thefuckin idiot has flamed out yet again.

November 13, 2007 1:31 PM

jacksondyer said:

Mockcocker says: "The article by J. Lorand Matory is precisely the type of article that a New Republic genuinely interested in a heterodoxical view of “politics and the arts” should be publishing. "

TNR is not interested in publishing antisemitic rants.

Get your own magazine if you want to publish Matory.

November 13, 2007 2:04 PM

basman said:

ndmackenzie

What's the use of responding to him her it?

November 13, 2007 2:18 PM

mollysimon said:

Basman:  Because she is the most awesome freak show in this circus we call The Spine.  

November 13, 2007 2:47 PM

jacksondyer said:

mollysimon: "what happened to the talkback in your post on Dershowitz and torture?  It's now just "slicing salami" over and over again.  Was this an attempt to censor?  If not, why hasn't it been restored?"

I believe that Dershowitz' thesis got a fair hearing here and I don't know why you would think that anyone is trying to impose censorship on the discussion.

btw: Dershowitz himself answered his critics here:

www.yale.edu/.../seminars.htm

October 11 Professor Alan Dershowitz, Harvard University, "Antisemitic Hate Speech: Incitement to Violence in the Absence of a Marketplace of Ideas." The Professor William Prusoff Lecture

7PM Levinson Auditorium  Yale Law School Video

I have my difference with him on the question of "torture warrants" but he did a spectacular job countering those who misinterpret his positions.   He is also fun to listen to

November 13, 2007 3:04 PM

ndmackenzie said:

It is interesting to not that several people criticized my post without bothering to contradict its veracity.   Does anyone really doubt my assertion that "I have seen many articles in The New Republic criticizing US policies, its politicians and its cultural mores but  I have never seen an article even remotely critical of Israel. "  Of course, they don't because it is undeniably true.

Franklin Foer has now been editor of The New Republic for more than a year.  In that time we have had a redesigned magazine and a partially reconstructed website.  But also in that time we have seen no change in the bigoted Likudnik ideology of the magazine with regard to the Israel-Palestinian problem. The continuing inablility of The New Republic to criticize Israel calls into question the intellectual and moral integrity of the magazine and its writers. At a certain point the editor of the magazine needs to be held accountable for the moral and intellectual failings of his magazine. And for Franklin Foer that point is long since passed.

November 13, 2007 3:11 PM

mollysimon said:

Jackson:  Yes, the torture debate got a fair hearing here--and was promptly wiped out by some crazy "slicing salami" line repeating itself ad infinitum.  Have you looked?

Thanks for the links.

November 13, 2007 3:31 PM

jacksondyer said:

About Professor J.L. Matory and his motion that,

"That the Faculty commits itself to fostering civil dialogue in which people with a broad range of perspectives feel safe and are encouraged to express their reasoned and evidence-based ideas."

Is doubly insulting to the Jewish community: first because it assumes that Jews have stifled debate on Jewish issues, which is false, and secondly because in order to justify his own bigotry he is moved to discount their point of view as a "traumatized community."

He asks:

"How can one engage in a critical and nonetheless loving conversation about Zionism with a community as gravely traumatized as the Jewish people?"  

This view isn't original with him. It's a popular condescending perspective that is held among leftists, especially British leftists. There have been a number of attempts by British academics to propose boycotting Israelis universities. They have also introduced similar propositions to the one Matory has introduces. It’s no accident that some of the most virulent anti-Israel intellectuals in the US today were originally from Britain. Tony Judt and Christopher Hitchens are but two examples. The British university system in England has become the headquarters of modern leftist western anti-Semitism.

  Professor Shalom Lappin of Kings College, University of London,  has written a paper on the issue “This Green and Pleasant Land: Britain and the Jews" which he will deliver at Yale on  November 29 and which you can download here:

www.yale.edu/.../seminars.htm

Being "traumatized" by history is the new original sin of the Jews. Of course, one doesn't take seriously the views of traumatized people any more than  one would have taken seriously the view of a sinful people in the eyes of Christian and Muslim antisemites.

Finally, Matory is tring to bring the tactics of the leftist British antisemitic Professoriat to Harvard. he should not get away with it.

There is a rejoinder to the kind of demagoguery Matory peddles in  Mitchell Cohen’s paper  “Anti-Semitism and the Left that Doesn’t Learn:”

Among other things Mitchell asks:

“…To what extent does much anti-Zionism replicate the mental patterns of anti-Semitism? And to what extent do demagogic articulations of anti-Zionism enhance anti-Semitism? There is a curious thing about anti-Semitism, and it was captured in a remark by British novelist Iain Pears that ought to be quoted and re-quoted these days: “anti-Semitism is like alcoholism. You can go for 25 years without a drink, but if things go bad and you find yourself with a vodka in your hand, you can’t get rid of it.” (International Herald Tribune, August 11, 2003).”

Read the whole article here:

dissentmagazine.org/article

November 13, 2007 3:33 PM

luispc said:

Can anyone infom me on why can't I access the last comments on the discussion on Dershowitz and torture?

Is it that the reformed TNR is not only commited to destroy talkback in the articles (it has already done so, as far as I'm concerned), but also in the blogs, by preventing people from viewing the last posts (from 90 something on, nothing can be seen)?

I'm being polite here. Could you stop this astonishing show of incompetence? Do you (whoever is in charge) made a vow to displease?

November 13, 2007 3:34 PM

jacksondyer said:

I usually don't revisit old debates, however, they should nevertheless be preserved in some archive for posterity.

November 13, 2007 4:58 PM

jacksondyer said:

www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx

It would be interesting to do a critique of Professor’s  J. Lorand  Matory’s tendentious and insincere article “Israel and Censorship at Harvard.”

The reason is that this piece of writings exhibits so many errors in logic, in history, and in psychological assessment that one wonders if it had been written say about women or Black people it would even have been published.

Matory of course knows the answer to that. Bring up the topic of women in any kind of critique and you will suffer the fate of Harvard’s former President. Accuse Jew of censorship and intimidation and no matter how preposterous your views you will be published just to prove that this is not the case. W& M’s deficient book which Matory parodies in his mean spirited rant is one such example.

It is ironic then that Matory’s conclusion should invoke larry Summers:

“Moreover, by intimidating those who are reasonable enough to separate their criticism of Israel from the criticism of Jewish people as a whole—as we must—discourses like Summers’ risk leaving the conversation to the people least able to engage tête-à-tête rather than gun-to-gun, bomb-to-bomb, and plane-to-tower. For that reason, I fear that the pronouncements of Summers—and our many colleagues who would stifle debate about Israel—are themselves “anti-Semitic in their effect, if not their intent.”

Here Professor Matory is trying to turn Larry Summer’s own words against the former President of Harvard, yet one can with more justice turn the writer’s own argument against himself.

This is because Matory’s whole argument is based on a lie:

“In my country, people tremble in the fear of losing their friends, jobs, advertising revenues, campaign contributions, and alumni donations if they question Zionism or Israeli policy—despite the billions of our tax dollars paid annually for Israel’s defense and sustenance.”

How is one to answer such a preposterous charge?

Suppose I turned the sentence to read,

‘In my country, people tremble in the fear of losing their friends, jobs, advertising revenues, campaign contributions, and alumni donations if they question the policy of affirmative action and the supposed benefits of diversity—despite the billions of our tax dollars paid annually for such programs?’

No, this will no do. The content of the thought may be similar but the spirit (its connotation) is quite different. This is because Matory very cannily introduced the idea of “rich Jews” controlling the country. No, he didn’t say this in so many words. What he said was, “people tremble in the fear of losing their friends, jobs, advertising revenues, campaign contributions, and alumni donations…”

Get it those rich Jews are repressing M&W and are stopping Matory from speaking out against “rich Jews.”

Get it Larry Summers gets canned because he spoke his mind (off the record) while Amatory is a hero of free speech because he speaks his mind against a supposed injury that never occurred.

There is more, Amatory says among other things that he himself is concerned about anti-Semitism:

“My aim here is not to preach but to insist upon my right, and others’, to a conversation full of respect and free of intimidation, one that presumes no monopolies on suffering, one in which all racism and anti-Semitism—whether against Semitic Jews, Semitic Christians, Semitic Druzes or Semitic Muslims—is equally impermissible.”

Yes, Matory is concerned with anti-Semitism the anti-Semitism suffered by “Semitic Christians, Semitic Druzes” and even by

Semitic Muslims.”

Now what kind of anti-Semitism have Christian, Muslims and Druze suffered?

Matory doesn’t say. He does leave the impression though that it was at the hands of the Jews. Still, one isn’t sure he avoids specifics. He avoids telling us that the Lebanese Christians and Coptic Egyptians and Christian Iraqis are being targeted by Muslim Semites on a daily basis.

Moreover he throws in the Druze but what exactly is their suffering and at whose hands?

Here is an excerpt from an article on the Druze in Israel from Wikipedia:

“In Israel"

"In Israel, where the Druze enjoy prominence in the military and in politics greatly surpassing their proportion of the general population, the majority of Druze do not identify themselves as Arabs [17]. Since 1957 the Israeli government has officially considered the Druze to be a distinct ethnic community, at the request of the community's leaders.

Daliyat Al-Karmel, Israeli Memorial to 355 Druze killed while fighting for IsraelIsraeli Druze serve in the Israeli army, voluntarily during 1948-1956, and, at the community's request, compulsorily ever since.[18] Their privileges and responsibilities are the same as those of Israeli Jews; thus, all Druze are drafted, but exemptions are given for religious students and for various other reasons, as in the majority Jewish population. Israeli Druze have achieved high positions of command in the Israeli military, far beyond their proportion in the general population of Israel.”

en.wikipedia.org/.../Druze

You may want to read the whole article because it is quite interesting.

Yes, the Druze suffer discrimination but it’s at the hands of the “Muslim Semites” in Lebanon and Syria.  About this Matory is mum.

Finally, Matory contradicts himself when he asks, “How can one engage in a critical and nonetheless loving conversation about Zionism with a community as gravely traumatized as the Jewish people?”

His view makes no sense. If the “Jewish Semites” are more traumatized then the “Muslim or Druze Semites” why put them on the same level. And why would he want to have a “loving conversation” with them? Traumatized people can’t discuss issues rationally. They are invalids who need to be taken care of.

Here is the complete quote:

“However, what follows is the most important question for the health of the academic and moral community that we share here at Harvard: How can one engage in a critical and nonetheless loving conversation about Zionism with a community as gravely traumatized as the Jewish people? The question has become particularly difficult to answer since Harvard’s previous president publicly declared that petitions against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza were a form of anti-Semitism, comparable to vandalizing Jewish gravestones.”

So Summers and Dershowitz (whom he also attacks) speak out of their traumas and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Now, if the Jewish people are so traumatized how comes it then that they have achieved such positions of prominence at Harvard? This is a point that he never brings up. The implication is, though, that this traumatized shouldn’t be trusted in such positions.  This is the real point Matory is trying to say when writes:

This is “the most important question for the health of the academic and moral community that we share here at Harvard.” This traumatized people are both unhealthy and unethical and the rest of us risk being placed in an unhealthy environment because they are situated in such prominent positions.

Matory is a nasty piece of work whose anti-Semitism is not subtle and certainly not “loving.”

November 13, 2007 10:30 PM

sleepyavl said:

Guys, it's nazimackenzie not ndmackenzie. Address her by her proper name.

Also, her rmost notable contribution to TNR has been to say jacksondyer performed fellatio on Marty Peretz. Try to remember that when you talk to her.

November 14, 2007 1:33 AM

ndmackenzie said:

I see sleepyavl is once again sharing his erotic fantasies with us.  Here is another one for him:

-- Suddenly from a room situated by itself at the end of the corridor, I thought I heard stifled groans. I walked rapidly towards the sounds and put my ear to the door. "I beseech you, mercy, have pity, untie me, don't beat me so hard," said a voice. "I kiss your feet, I abase myself, I promise not to offend again. Have pity on me." "No, you filthy brute," replied another voice, "and if you yell and drag yourself about on your knees like that, you'll be tied to the bed, no mercy for you," and I heard the noise of the crack of a whip, which I guessed to be reinforced with nails, for it was followed by cries of pain. At this moment I noticed that there was a small oval window opening from the room on to the corridor and that the curtain had no been drawn across it; stealthily in the darkness I crept as far as this window and there in the room, chained to a bed like Prometheus to his rock, receiving the blows that Maurice rained upon him with a whip which was in fact studded with nails, I saw, with blood already flowing from him and covered with bruises which proved that the chastisement was not taking place for the first time - I saw before me sleepyavl.

-Time Regained by Marcel Proust.

November 14, 2007 2:26 AM

jacksondyer said:

sleepyavl, mcnazi has posted the same Proust passage before.

It's the only passage she knows and she probably got it from some website.

Mcnazi would be attracted to a sadomasochistic relationship. It suits her personality. It's what she and her Palestinian boy friend are engaged in.

November 14, 2007 9:31 AM

jacksondyer said:

Speaking of The Jewish State's concern for Darfur. Here is a video  link to a concert being held in Tel Aviv that will benefit the Darfur refugees:

www.haaretz.com/.../923723.html

"Darfur refugees auditioned for a benefit concert in T.A.  

By Haaretz Staff and Channel 10  

tags: Darfur, Sudanese refugees  

Haaretz.com/Channel 10 daily feature for November 13, 2007.  

On Thursday, Tel Aviv University hosted a special benefit concert for those affected by the massacre in Darfur.

Ahead of the concert, singer Daniel Solomon, who organized the event, auditioned Sudanese refugees in a shelter in Tel Aviv, in order to find performers to join Israeli singers on stage. "

November 14, 2007 9:38 AM

basman said:

ndmackenzie

It's no use probably, but I'm guessing there is something clinically wrong with you.

November 14, 2007 9:44 AM

babigail said:

btw jackson, I don't think they're all from Darfur. Israel has taken in between 1-2000 Sudanese refugees, some from the disaster area and others from other places in Sudan, who have reached the brink of starvation for shortage of work.

After all their trials and ordeals and long trip they had to pass the final test: evading the Egyptian army's bullets.

Not all of them succeeded.

----------------------------

And about that idiot: why do you all go on responding to the shit it smears here? If you just ignore this poisoned worm for a substantial length of time, it'll tire of it and disappear.

November 14, 2007 10:08 AM

babigail said:

Oh, I almost forgot.

Talking about antisemitism, the genius has contributed the following:

www.haaretz.com/.../923735.html

November 14, 2007 10:12 AM

jacksondyer said:

babigail said:  "Oh, I almost forgot.

Talking about antisemitism, the genius has contributed the following:"

The link doesn't work, Abigail.

I agree about the idiot.

However,  when  idiots posts false data it's important to counter the data. Still, you are right and we should not enage her on a personal level.

November 14, 2007 10:18 AM

babigail said:

Works great here!

fuck.

and it's not the one on antisemitism anyway. I got it all wrong.

i meant this one:

www.haaretz.com/.../922248.html

is it working?

One day this genius will stray on the net and end up here, and see what his mother is doing on her (not) free time, and how she's embarrassing him.

That will probably be one of my last days on planet earth.

I'm telling you just so you all know that if i ever disappear unnoticed for a very long time, I'm probably lying on the bottom of the Mediterranean with lead weights attached to my legs. Courtesy of the genius.

Just tellin' ya

November 14, 2007 10:30 AM

babigail said:

I meant without notice... right?

unnoticed is something else.

It's not me.

November 14, 2007 10:33 AM

jacksondyer said:

It worked fine here, Abigail.

Just downloaded it and will respond later.

November 14, 2007 10:43 AM

jhildner said:

Matory's aim with this resolution is to make his point of view immune from rhetorical attack -- nothing more.  It has nothing to do with fear of losing friends or alumni contributions.  Even if those things happened, this resolution would do nothing to address it.  You can be friends with whomever you want, and you can give money to your alma mater or not, for any reason.  From his perspective, the forcefulness with which his opponents make their case puts them over the line.  The academic community has room for accusations of antisemitism (which, Mr. Matory, refers exclusively to hatred of Jews) just as it has room for accusations of racism -- neither to be made lightly -- and it also has room for passionate argument.  With this resolution, Matory wants to be able to make his points passionately and then, instead of engaging intelligently with his opponents, dismiss them as improper, uncivil, mean, etc.

Marty is right that this resolution is both insipid and insidious.  Its most insidious aspect, though, may not be its link to anti-Israel attitudes.  For me, it comes down to two anodyne words -- "feel safe."  It strikes me as emblematic of a cultural pattern that has emerged of late where public discourse seems more worried about the rules of public discourse rather than the merits of the arguments.  Has the obsession with not giving offense gone too far?  Isn't it inevitable that it will stifle serious academic debate rather than encourage it?  Put it this way:  If this guy really is a crackpot, then he *shouldn't* feel safe, at least not from forceful criticism.  Miss Manners strikes again!

November 14, 2007 10:53 AM

ndmackenzie said:

jhildner writes: "Matory's aim with this resolution is to make his point of view immune from rhetorical attack -- nothing more. "

That is a good description of the trick pulled by members of the Likudnik lobby when they deliberately conflate justified criticism of Israeli policies with anti-Semitism

November 14, 2007 11:45 AM

jhildner said:

ndmackenzie:  I notice that you toss in "justified" before "criticism of Israeli policies" -- but that's the issue, isn't it?  The question some ask, which you're obviously unsympethetic with, is whether certain anti-Israel arguments and attitudes are in fact so unjustified -- exaggerated, ignorant, knee-jerk, leveled against Israel but not others far worse -- that they smack of a bad attitude toward powerful Jews, i.e., antisemitism.  I don't think that question is out of line, and I think it's a pretty important line of inquiry.  I would say the same thing about any kind of racism.  These issues should be explored, and should not be deemed off-limits because they're serious accusations.  Of course they are -- that's the point.  I'm not the one proposing to stifle debate -- that would be your friend Matory who conflates forceful disagreement with incivility.

November 14, 2007 12:35 PM

basman said:

Jh: I'm laying odds that your patience here will not last past, say, a half dozen posts by you.

November 14, 2007 1:08 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Idle question: what are the chances that, as TNR contributor and HLS prof Bill Stuntz opined not long ago, Harvard's position in higher ed may go the way of General Motors' position in the auto industry?

ie still prominent (in market terms) but in long, slow decline, clinging to its captive but shrinking audience of backward-looking and conservative diehards and pushed aside by more dynamic and attractive rivals?

Curious to know the group's views on what might bring about Stuntz's scenario, and how likely it is.

November 14, 2007 1:10 PM

jacksondyer said:

Abigail, the article “Anti-Semitism, in Sweden? Depends who you're asking”   By Cnaan Liphshiz  was well written but it wasn’t really about Swedish  society. Most of the article detailed the views of the former Israeli ambassador to that country. In that sense it was a disappointment.

I don’t as much about Swedish anti-Semitism as I do about British, (where antismeitism is currenlty on the rise) French and other European countries, but I do know that there very many Swedes who supported national socialism including such prominent intellectuals as Ingmar Bergman who in the 30’s belonged to a Nazi youth group.

“In 1934, at the age of 16, Bergman was sent to spend the summer vacation with family friends in Germany. It is believed that he attended a Nazi rally in Weimar at which he saw Adolf Hitler.[4] He later wrote in his biography Laterna Magica about the visit to Germany, how the German family had put a portrait of Adolf Hitler on the wall by his bed, and that "for many years, I was on Hitler's side, delighted by his success and saddened by his defeats".[5]”

en.wikipedia.org/.../Ingmar_Bergman

Bagman’s portrayal of Jews in is films are very problematic though film critics like TNR’s own Stanley Kauffmann like to elide the issue.

Still, that in itself doesn’t tell us much about current Swedish anti-Semitism. I am afraid, though, that neither the Rabbi, Meir Horden, nor the Israeli Ambassador’s views, were very enlightening.

November 14, 2007 1:36 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Jack - funny, I was thinking the same thing about the older matron's jewish lover in Fanny and Alexander. There was something deeply unsettling about that aspect of the movie, indeed the "god is a sh*t"-spouting semi-queer creepy son who befriends, if that's the right word, Alexander. I confess I don't understand either Bergman or the jew-obsessed.

November 14, 2007 1:40 PM

ndmackenzie said:

jhildner writes: "I'm not the one proposing to stifle debate."

Which is belied by his own statement earlier in the comment:

-- The question some ask, which you're obviously unsympethetic with, is whether certain anti-Israel arguments and attitudes are in fact so unjustified -- exaggerated, ignorant, knee-jerk, leveled against Israel but not others far worse -- that they smack of a bad attitude toward powerful Jews, i.e., antisemitism.

jhildner knows and I know, indeed we all know, that the anti-Semitic canard is routinely used to slander anyone who dares criticize Israel and in consequence is used to stifles any debate. jhildner knows full well that the "question some ask" is never a genuine call for deeper understanding but is a threat to smear someone as an anti-Semite for daring to voice criticism of Israel.  jhildner knows all this yet has followed a path paved by duplicty and dissemblance. What this tells me is that jhildner does not believe in moral and intellectual integrity.

November 14, 2007 1:48 PM

jacksondyer said:

Yes, Tep, that and David Kovac in The Touch, and  Marcus in Faithless a film scripted by Berman.

November 14, 2007 2:21 PM

jacksondyer said:

" What this tells me is that jhildner does not believe in moral and intellectual integrity." This coming from the nazi minded ndmackenzie is a gruesome joke.

November 14, 2007 2:23 PM

babigail said:

jackson, I agree. the headline assigned to this short double interview was wrong. It was just a summary of two Jews' opposing opinions.

My experience is that Swedes hate, there's no other word, Israel. They're force-fed by their completely one-sided media so much unbalanced material, that you sometimes wonder who the poor Palestinians' enemy is. Israel is portrayed there as an obscure boot that oppresses the poor Arabs, but never have I seen there an in-depth investigation as to the reasons for the conflict or for any specific event. They have this special way they've developed of never reporting, for example, of attacks perpetrated by Palestinians before there's a proper Israeli response. And then, of course, the headline will read the Israeli response only. A brain washing of sorts.

And as to antisemitism - I don't think they're really different than any other European community, plus this mass media deluge is certainly contributing to whatever antisemitic sentiment they may already have.

But I was also shocked by the revelation that Bergman was, and probably remained, an antisemite. It was told and quoted on one or two Swedish papers after his death. I had not expected this.

And that creature is talking about "criticism", which is a nice word.

The Palestinians, both Hamas and Fatah, are beyond criticism I suppose. It's all the result of Israel's designs.  That's intellectual integrity and moral for you.

We are still providing them with water, power, communication, food and medicines when they are attacking us every single day, and have an open border with Egypt, which has become exclusively used for arm smuggling.

If ever I've seen a ridiculous preposterous fantastic situation - this is it. Israel should be celebrated as the most humane country in the world, but is blamed nonetheless for their plight.

Absurd.  

November 14, 2007 3:47 PM

ndmackenzie said:

A former editor of The New Republic writes on his blog today:

"It's also a function of some neocons' unfortunate tendency to cry anti-Semitism if anyone disagrees with them on foreign policy."

andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.../the-campaign-to.html

November 14, 2007 6:05 PM

jacksondyer said:

Abigail, I have no doubt that you are right about the Swedes. Still, as I said above I know less about their contemporary attitudes than I do about those of other European countries.

Your description of the absolute one sidedness of most of the European media seems true to me. I believe that their stance vis-à-vis the Palestinians is not as innocent or benign as they would like to think. It’s not just a case of their being on the side of the weaker party. It’s a case of their hypocritical endorsement of anti-Semitism. They don’t dare attack Jews openly so they pretend to do so in the name of humanitarian and universal values. In the process, by their Orwellian use of language, they are demeaning those values they pretend to defend.

November 14, 2007 6:29 PM

jacksondyer said:

Oh fuck  mackenzie in her case  anti-Semitism comes as naturally as typing.

The nazi minded mackenzie as usual leaves out the context of the quote which deals with the endorsement of Ron Paul by Mackenzie neo neo-Nazi comrades:

“I see no reason why the campaign should not return any money given by neo-Nazis who are subsequently identified as such. But Jonah is right that this whole thing tells us more about Paul's amateurism in rapid-response than anything else. It's also a function of some neocons' unfortunate tendency to cry anti-Semitism if anyone disagrees with them on foreign policy.”

andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.../the-campaign-to.html

In any case being the ex editor of TNR doesn’t make Andrew Sullivan right on every issue and I strongly doubt that he would appreciate the endorsement of the likes of mackenzie any more than he supports Ron Paul.

November 14, 2007 6:38 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Andrew Sullivan like many non-Americans is a babe in the woods when it comes to understanding the long and deep association of midwestern America-First isolationism (Coughlin, Birchers), return-to-the-glod-standard nutcase economics, and racist and reactionary social policies. Ron Paul's candidacy appeals to elements of all three. Of _course_ the neo-nazis and David Duke types will endorse him.

November 14, 2007 8:34 PM

sleepyavl said:

Nazimackenzie, also known on TNR as ndmackenzie, wrote that jacksondyer perfomed fellatio on Marty Peretz. Talkback June 2006. It is a fact.

And you Nazi, don't quote from Proust. Quote from Hitler or  Lenin or Osama, according to who you are, a two-dollar crazy Nazi whore.

November 15, 2007 5:03 AM

sleepyavl said:

Jack, Nazi doesn't have any Palestinian boyfriend. She'd be in a better mood. She just just sounds like an unhinged person with a strong potential for violence. I would be very surprised if she wasn't involved in criminal activity. Remember Richard Reid, the loner bitter British terrorist who tried to detonate on an American airliner? This is who ndmacknezie is very similar to. She has the classic profile of the criminal. Sooner or later she'll act.

November 15, 2007 5:11 AM

jhildner said:

Basman:  You should have taken the under on the six-post bet.  See ya later!

November 15, 2007 11:00 AM

ndmackenzie said:

sleepyavl -

Have you ever been tested for Tourette Syndrome? I wonder because you can barely go one sentence without using words like "Nazi" and "whore," and coprolalia is a symptom of Tourette's. Furthermore your continued attempts to bring up "fellatio" - two in this thread alone - suggest you may also be suffering from palilalia.

-- Coprolalia (the spontaneous utterance of socially objectionable or taboo words or phrases) is the most publicized symptom of Tourette's, but it is not required for a diagnosis of Tourette's. According to the Tourette Syndrome Association, fewer than 15% of Tourette's patients exhibit coprolalia.[14] Echolalia (repeating the words of others) and palilalia (repeating one's own words) occur in a minority of cases,[7] while the most common initial motor and vocal tics are, respectively, eye blinking and throat clearing.[15]

en.wikipedia.org/.../Tourette_syndrome

You probably have nothing to worry about because it is more likely that you have a particularly bad case of self-loathing which you project onto others.

November 15, 2007 12:32 PM

The Spine said:

Two days ago I posted a note here about the resolution proposed by J. Lorand Matory, a anthropologist

November 15, 2007 12:55 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Classic thread. Another high point for The Pine.

November 15, 2007 12:56 PM

mollysimon said:

Mac.  You've obviously spent some time with the DSM.  Since you probably have a copy handy, look under 300.3.  Your picture is featured, along with the following caption:  "Her unrelenting obsession and monomania with the Palestinian cause exclude any kind of rational thought or behavior, frequently to the detriment of her social and cognitive abilities.  Treatments are limited in their efficacy, though SSRIs combined with behavioral therapy have been found to have some benefits."

Are you ready to let go, ND?

November 15, 2007 2:12 PM

sleepyavl said:

I don't call other people fellatio Nazi whores. I only call you, ndmackenzie, a fellatio Nazi whore.

First, because you are obsessed with Jews, you are hysterical and have a gigantic apetite for murder of Jews. Hence, the Nazi whore.

Second, because in June 2006 you have said on TNR Talkback that jacksondyer performed fellatio on Marty Peretz. The funny thing is that in your lengthy nonsense you haven't dared to contradict this fact. You cannot, because you did it. In fact, the first times I reminded you of it, you just sounded light-hearted about it. What's your problem now? You did it and that's who you are.

Hence, the fellatio.

Why are you ashamed now? Is it because you have never said anything intelligent but only hysterical, Nazi hatred filled garbage? Because you support terorism? Because one day the Scotland Yard or the FBI will take notice of your terror support?

Whatever the reason, take your vallium - and the antibiotics that go with your profession.

November 15, 2007 7:54 PM

ndmackenzie said:

Just so sleepyavl can cream himself yet again here is a copy of the original "blue dress" comment I addressed to jacksondyer:

-- btw: Being editor in chief of one of the best magazines in the country is no mean feat.

-- He owns the magazine and can give himself whatever title he wants. Giving himself the title of "Editor in Chief" is consequently no feat at all.

-- I do hope, however, that Martin Peretz appreciates your mindless fawning over him. Remember not to get that little blue dress cleaned - the spot may be worth something some day.

Although Martin Peretz no longer owns the magazine the mindless fawning continues undiminished.  The "fellatio" must be a sleepyavl fantasy because it is not a word I would introduce into an argument.

November 15, 2007 8:18 PM

sleepyavl said:

Listen ndmackenzie, you said, literally, that jacksondyer went down on Marty Peretz. If you expect everyone to be as stupid and "forgetful" as you are, surprise!, we're not in not your little swastika world.

And don't spare us the well-bred pose, we know here how demented you are. And if you were well-bred, you wouldn't have said that jacksondyder "went down on Marty". You're a nut - and a dangerous one. Let us know when you go to the Tube with that suicide bomber backpack of yours.

November 16, 2007 1:49 AM

sleepyavl said:

P.S. I tip off my hat to you, ndmackenzie. You really do have energy if you post the usual rubbish from that hiding place. I'm sure it must be hard when the cops are after you and you gotta wash that swastika bedspread, dust Noam Chomsky's portrait, watch videos where your comrades deal with rope-bound Zionist infidels as it befits your soul mates - so many things to do, so little time!

November 16, 2007 1:56 AM

ndmackenzie said:

sleepyavl writes (in separate comments):

-- She has the classic profile of the criminal.

-- Because one day the Scotland Yard or the FBI will take notice of your terror support?

I would venture, were I being kind, that sleepyavl is one of those people who in the Soviet states was despised by his neighbors as being the local KGB stooge - given his obvious belief that dissent  is criminal.

November 16, 2007 4:43 AM

mollysimon said:

KGB?  That would be you, m'dear.  Forget "dissent."  Your postings are nothing but agitprop.  You never take on direct arguments, as when I posted you with a list of about a dozen questions on your views of Israel.  No answers from you, not even on  right-of-return.  Never once have you mentioned suicide bombings  to temper your arguments so that you don't sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Semite.  You are a propagandist, and would have fit quite well in Soviet Russia, as you are unable to sing anything but the party line.

Go back to bed.  Your next customer is waiting.

November 16, 2007 12:16 PM

babigail said:

Thanks Molly.

Form time saved.

You did it by far better than I would. Or could.

November 16, 2007 12:55 PM

babigail said:

for, for.

not form.

November 16, 2007 12:56 PM

sleepyavl said:

Nazimackenzie, In a Communist Soviet state I was on the street againt the regime: December 1989.

Many of us, randomly in that crowd, died right there.

In that same Communist state, my granfather was murdered by the police.

You who have not risked you life for freedom, you who have supported Jew-murderers, shut up.

November 17, 2007 3:20 AM

sleepyavl said:

Nazimackenzie, In a Communist Soviet state I was on the street againt the regime: December 1989.

Many of us, randomly in that crowd, died right there.

In that same Communist state, my granfather was murdered by the police.

You who have not risked you life for freedom, you who have supported Jew-murderers, shut up.

November 17, 2007 3:20 AM

mollysimon said:

Amen Sleepy.  Doubt you'll get the apology you're owed--or any response.  She's pathologically shameless.  And a coward. She'd never have had the courage to march.  Had she, though, we'd have heard it a thousand times by now.   I think this is the first time you've mentioned it.  

I have to say I already admired you.  Your education, the field you've chosen, your success as an immigrant coming from a commie country.  Now even more so.  

November 17, 2007 12:41 PM

ndmackenzie said:

sleepyavl writes (in separate comments):

-- She has the classic profile of the criminal.

-- Because one day the Scotland Yard or the FBI will take notice of your terror support?

-- I'm sure it must be hard when the cops are after you

and now

-- shut up

sleepyavl grew up in the shadow of Stalin.  We should not be surprised therefore by his desire to suppress reality and criminalize dissent. He may have transferred his allegiance from a communist state to a Zionist state but his support for the fictions of the state continue unabated. Even in moving to the United States he refuses to recognize the importance of freedom of speech and demands to criminalize speech and suppress the truth.  sleepyavl will always be an apparatchick. And to the apparatchick all that matters is the cause - the devil can have truth and morality.

And that, mollysimon, is a far kinder apology than sleepyavl deserves.

November 17, 2007 4:30 PM

sleepyavl said:

You whore Nazimackenzie ndmacknezie, I fought against that Communist state. I had no allegiance to Communist shits like you, I had the misfortune of being born there - and risked my life against it. Instead, you are the exact opposite:

- you were born in a free country yet defend terrorism

- you are engaged in criminal activity while I (along with many other decent young people, some of whom died right there) put my life in line against it.

May what happened to me happen to you personally. May your beloved Communists shoot to kill you as the Communist police shot to kill me in 1989 and shot (and killed) my grandfather in 1964.

But now I am going to tell you a story that will REALLY upset you. I served in the Israeli army and I do reserve duty in the Israeli army. You know, it's a drag because I have a busy professional life and I presently live overseas. During the time I live overseas and not reside in Israel, I am not actually obliged by law to do it. But I do it. Why? Because I know that the army is vital to the existence of Israel, or otherwise we Jews would be at the mercy of absolutely murderous anti-Semites like you. And this is specifically about YOU NDMACKENZIE: this spring when I came from the US to do reserve duty in the IDF (and thus missed a conference), I have thought of specifically of you, ndmackenzie. Together with a few other contributors at TNR (ThorsProvoni, The Ignorant Populist), you Nazi ndmackenzie are truly an invaluable contributor to the cause of Zionism, because you show us Jews that there are many uncompromising anti-Semites who would murder us, destroy our country and our physical selves. Every time you post, remember: you Nazi ndmackenzie boost and greatly help the cause of Zionism.  

November 17, 2007 6:22 PM

mollysimon said:

I can barely get my jaw off the floor, and assume you are posting from a residential facility for the mentally disabled.  

November 17, 2007 6:24 PM

sleepyavl said:

Notice the logic of the Nazi whore ndmackenzie: whoever was born in a Communist state is an aparatchik. By this logic Nelson Mandela would be a racist, Natan Sharanky would be an anti-Semite and so on.

What's the logic of the whore? Get the money from the john and give it to Hamas, then put a cute kaffiyeh and go burn some cars with the other progressive druggies in the neighborhood.

But how could you teach logic to a Nazi whore like ndmackenzie? It's like teaching math to a pig: it doesn't work and it annoys the hell out of the pig.

In a few years you'll look like a garbage can, ndmackenzie. Then there'll be no john (beer goggles have a limit) and you'll spend all your days fantasizing online about how jacksondyer went down on Marty Peretz.

November 17, 2007 6:35 PM

mollysimon said:

"It's like teaching math to a pig: it doesn't work and it annoys the hell out of the pig."

That's funny.

November 17, 2007 9:11 PM

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