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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
03.11.2007
Yet Another Columbia Disgrace


Judging tenure battles from the outside is a dangerous business. But some of these procedures are so obvious that the facts are there in open air for the informed public to judge.  The denial by DePaul University of tenure to Norman Finkelstein was a self-evident proposition; it was already an intellectual scandal that he had been hired to teach at any rank.  Similarly with Juan Cole who was denied a full professorship at Yale (from an already tenured post at the University of Michigan; I assume approved by Lee Bollinger, now the hapless president of Columbia University but then president at Ann Arbor.)  Cole is a propagandist, and Yale as an institution felt that his politics, whatever it was, is no substitute for scholarly work.  In its own inimitably serious way, Yale made a statement about what tenure means.  Its History Department, perhaps the greatest of all such departments in America, would not compromise its distinction for an appointment that had no distinction attached to it at all.

Well, it's no longer "Hail Columbia."  And it hasn't been that for a very long time.  It is now suffering from the enthronement of Edward Said at the university, so that any appointment touching on the Middle East becomes just another round in the struggle of his heirs for domination of the field by partisans of the Palestinian cause, particularly, and the Arab-Muslim cause, more generally.  In the academy, of course, this automatically translates into a vulgar hatred of America.  In any case, Bollinger did not make this much.  He fell into it.  But he has certainly added to its odor.  I wonder how he makes his decisions.

Nadia Abu El-Haj, an assistant professor of archaeology at Barnard College, Columbia's women's college, was up for tenure, which requires the approval of the university's president.  Apparently, it has been given. I've looked at the book, Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society.   I guess that these days you can write a book about a country whose language you don't know, at least if your tenure decision depends on a man like Bollinger, cowardly and self-important at once.  The thesis of El-Haj's 2001 study is that Israel has skewed its archaeological practice to distort the history of the Jews in the ancient land, to put Jews where there were not Jews and to retrospectively eliminate others who had been there.  This is nonsense.

I happen to know a tiny bit about this.  First of all, I know several truly eminent Israeli archaeologists of different historical viewpoints.  El-Haj is gravely impudent to doubt the scrupulous honesty of the profession in Israel itself, an argumentative bunch worshipping no sacred cows.  Secondly, when I was chairman of the Jerusalem Foundation, we had partially financed the excavation of the southern side of the temple mount.  It is an instance of historical probity.  The layers unveiled are so differentiated as to give every period from near Davidic times to the coming of Islam and the Crusades their distinct, yet intermeshed place.  And now there is the fright that archaeologists continue to unearth sites in the ancient hub of Jerusalem that seem not only to be of David's era but of David's kingship.  A tragedy for the trumped up history Palestinian nationalists have been peddling.  Of course, the history of Christianity depends on and derives from the Jewish presence and Jewish kingship and a Jewish priestly caste in the sacred city.  Is the whole story of Jesus just bobe mayses, grandmother's tales? Well, if you believe Professor Al-Haj, whose new work is mirabili dictu in the genetic history of the Jews, it is.  From ignorance to ignorance. 

Maybe President Bollinger can get this lady a professorship in the Biology Department.

But maybe not.  He'll soon be looking, I expect, for another job himself.  How long will the Columbia board of trustees tolerate such intellectual mayhem at its university?  Maybe they'll palliate their consciences by giving him a big severance package.




 

Posted: Saturday, November 03, 2007 9:34 PM with 50 comment(s)

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mrcookie1 said:

Peretz,

I urge you to read Larry Cohler-Esses' article in the 11/12 The Nation. He maintains that these charges are not true and claims to have researched every one. He also contacted a Paula Stern, who is the Barnard alum who is organizing the on line petition - have you signed? - and when asked to justify her charges, he expressed astonishment that anyone would actually ask her to do such a thing.

This is the first that I have read of this so I have only read your Spine and Cohler-Esses' new piece in the Nation on this controversy. He makes his case pretty well.  I have not read the book.  But I have to tell you this:  I really don't know  who to believe but based upon my take on your journalistic rigor and integrity, I am not going to believe what you say simply because you say it. This Cohler-Esses fellow makes a strong case refuting your take.  Check it out.

November 4, 2007 12:32 AM

achester99 said:

Cookie, the article is actually in The Jewish Week, where Larry Cohler-Esses is Editor-At-Large.  Link here: www.thejewishweek.com/.../Israel.html

The source is significant, as I imagine Marty (like myself) is much more skeptical about Israel-related issues emanating from The Nation.  But the article is highly recommended, as it lists the array of issues on both sides, such as:

Prof. Rafael Greenberg, senior lecturer in archaeology at Tel Aviv University, called the work an “eye-opener,” adding, “I recommend it.” His colleague, Aren Maeir, an archaeologist based at Bar Ilan, denounced it as “replete with inaccuracies [and] faulty research.”

...

Abu El-Haj elsewhere repeatedly writes about the First and Second Temple periods and Jewish presence during these periods as a matter of fact.

...

The campaign to deny her tenure has received public support from figures such as Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief of The New Republic, who stated, incorrectly,  last month that Abu El-Haj “believes that archeology proves there were never any Hebrews in the Holy Land.”

All this being said, El-Haj does not sound like a particularly pleasant character, and I'm sure my politics are VERY far away from hers'.  But that's not relevant here.  As Marty would be the first to say, tenure should be a matter of scholarship, not politics.  Is her scholarship really shoddy?  It's unclear, but Marty's presentation of the evidence is sorely lacking at the moment.

November 4, 2007 1:51 AM

sleepyavl said:

Cookie, I'm completely astonished you buy into that!

Nadia Abu El-Haj doesn't speak Hebrew, is not an archeologist  and generally denies first hand evidence. She is typical of these post-modernist "scholars" and Edward Said disciples and accolytes (Nicholas Dirks is another such tenured charlatan), who justify their lack of research as high-minded mistrust of empiricism.

She is a Marxist, Cookie, a Marxist who doesn't believe in evidence. Before being an anti-Semite, which she mst certainly is, she is a stupid person in a stupid field. It's very disappointing that you fell for this. Who are you ging to defend next, Joseph Massad?

November 4, 2007 4:01 AM

babigail said:

Cookie, all the Larry Cohler-Esses article in The Nation does is point out the campaigns he thinks are waged against the Muslims or Arabs, but he doesn't show how the attack against El-Haj's book is amiss. The one from the Jewish Week is a bit more to the point, but still not enough.

The outcry at the attack launched at Muslims and Arabs may be right, but hardly provides solid affirmation or refutal of her claims in the book, whatever they are (haven't read it).

Sleepy, same goes to the vivid description of her personality and political views. Even a Marxist can turn out a respectable piece of research. And I still am not sure she doesn't know Hebrew, since there are claims that she did study it.

Her book or research has to be weighed by academic parameters and nothing else.

November 4, 2007 8:26 AM

jacksondyer said:

"I have not read the book.  But I have to tell you this:  I really don't know  who to believe..."

you should have stopped there cookie.

If you think it's important to read primary sources then do so before you decide that one source is right and the other wrong.

As to the Nadia Abu El-Haj controversy the fact that she doesn't know Hebrew is pretty damning evidence.  

November 4, 2007 9:33 AM

jacksondyer said:

About Nadia's Hebrew knowledge the article quoted by archester says the following:

"In addition, despite Abu El-Haj’s frequent citation of Hebrew language sources and an acknowledgment on her book’s first page thanking her Hebrew tutor, Stern’s petition asserts, “Abu El Haj does not speak or read Hebrew ... We fail to understand how a scholar can pretend to study the attitudes of a people whose language she does not know.”"

This is odd Nadia thanks her <b>tutor</> for help with the Hebrew yet we are supposed to believe that she knows Hebrew?  A researcher in Hebrew archeology ought to know Hebrew well enough not to need help from a tutor.

November 4, 2007 9:38 AM

jacksondyer said:

A note on Nadia's book title:

"Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society. "

The book title takes one back to the work done by so called New Historians like Stephen Greenblatt whose book Renaissance self Fashioning started an industry in describing the views a society and its individuals holds abut itself as  "manufactured" for social and personal reason rather than real in the sense that the views are self evident.

This isn't a Marxist thesis exactly. It is a post modernist thesis. This is made clear in the article itself when Cohler-Esses states that:

"The book implicitly rejects widespread Jewish self-perception of the Zionist enterprise as one in which Jews have returned to a land to which they have always been inherently connected.

That connection, Abu El-Haj argues, had to be created in multiple ways—from establishing settlements and making that the sine qua non of early Zionism, through renaming and Hebraizing thousands of Arab villages, towns and place names and—not least of all—through developing a national “myth” of indigenous origin—a narrative—in which the findings of archaeology, with its scientific authority to “fix facts,” played a key role.

The book discusses these issues using the loaded jargon of academic post-structuralism, referring frequently to “national origin myth,” “making place,” “self-fashioning” and “privileging” certain concepts, methodologies or paradigms. It strongly rejects a positivist world view in which knowledge is something objectively out there that is simply discovered, through empirical investigation, rather than interpreted."

It is clear that Nadia's book is an anti-Jewish political tract disguised as archeology.

November 4, 2007 10:02 AM

babigail said:

Jackson,

In this case the reviews thereof should say so and give examples as you have done, and more.

You can't convince anyone of the book's worthiness or lack thereof by just saying that Arabs are under attack. Or that she's a Marxist.

As to her knowledge of Hebrew: she had to start learning it sometime, and her tutor might have been that one with whom she started. Who knows?

In any case the archaeological evidence of periods before 2nd Temple and some after it as well are either in the ancient Hebrew letters or in Canaanite letters.

She has to be able to read and discern these sets of Alphabet pretty well to afford to utter as much as a single syllable of opinion about it.

November 4, 2007 10:24 AM

babigail said:

Maybe this will interest you:

www.ancient-hebrew.org/index.html

I hope she really took a deep dive into these studies before writing the first sentence.

November 4, 2007 10:35 AM

mrcookie1 said:

sleepy, my good man,

If you look closely, you should notice that I do not say I believe either Marty or this Larry guy but one, I found it fascinating that on the same day, I read both their articles, saying exactly the opposite thing! And, two, I have a deep mistrust of Marty's capacity to accurately portray the works and words of others, especially those who have the temerity to disagree with The Man  Who Is The Final Word.  

I suggested that he check it out.  So should you. And babigail is absolutely correct: Whether he is a Marxist  (and is that true? Labels like that get thrown around quite casually in Spine Land but let's say, for the sake of argument that it is true) really has very little to do with whether the claims he makes in his article - that this charges against this professor are actually true and not the product of an over-amped smear machine - are true.  He claims to have read the book and to have contacted her critics, who show a surprising unfamiliarity with the actual book.  They "heard" it from someone or signed a petition, or read it in The Sun.  All pretty quotidian sources for most of us who follow the news, but not very credible sources for those who are claiming verifiable knowledge.  

I will check this out more and try to see whose really closer to the truth.  

November 4, 2007 10:58 AM

jacksondyer said:

Cookie to sleepy:

"If you look closely, you should notice that I do not say I believe either Marty or this Larry guy but one, I found it fascinating that on the same day, I read both their articles, saying exactly the opposite thing! And, two, I have a deep mistrust of Marty's capacity to accurately portray the works and words of others, especially those who have the temerity to disagree with The Man  Who Is The Final Word."

In that case your view of Marty's posts are as predictable as high winds accompanying a hurricane.

You are like a virus (or is it spy ware?) in an anti-Peretz computer program, Cookie.

November 4, 2007 11:19 AM

jacksondyer said:

Thanks for the link Abigail, I am aware of the disimilarities between  ancient Hebrew (Cananite)  script and the script  adopted later by the Biblical scribes.

November 4, 2007 11:23 AM

CRS9TNR said:

You Guys are missing the point here.

Nadia Abu El-Haj is requesting Tenure based upon her works.  This decision is up to Lee Bollinger.  President Bollinger has made his stand for Diversity and Free Speech many times in the past as Marty points out.  Juan Cole, University of Michigan Diversity decision, Ahmadinejad,etc.  Now Bollinger is in a tough situation, Academic Integrity or Diversity & Free Speech.

A University President is required to prevent people from saying things that are not accurate.  They are the final word in the academic debate.

Lee Bollinger has always avoided these difficult decisions and deferred to the political correctness of Free Speech and Diversity.

Sometimes you need to stop people from saying things that will hurt others, distort the record or just confuse and agitate.  That is why the Ahmadinejad Speech was such a disaster.  Colombia now stands with the Iranians in so many crazy, stupid and wrong ideas.

Nadia Abu El-Haj has picked a suject and is trying to politicize it.  Marty's statements about the Israeli Archeology and Reviews are consistent with what I have seen before on the subject.  Israeli scholorship on history and archeology are brutally objective.  El-Haj does not seem to meet this rigor and obviously has a bias that will undermine her future work.

If Bollinger approves this Tenure without a full broad review of this work and agreement of the academic community outside Colombia, what would he ever reject?

If he approves this, it will be compared with the ideas of Ahmadinejad.

Marty looks like he's on to something here.  We'll see what happens.

November 4, 2007 11:32 AM

luispc said:

(...) the views a society and its individuals holds abut itself as  "manufactured" for social and personal reason rather than real in the sense that the views are self evident.This isn't a Marxist thesis exactly. It is a post modernist thesis."

There is a marxist element in it. Marx's concept of "alienation" covers the myths communities shape within themselves for cohesion and political purposes. This was a thesis very much explored by the first Frankfurt School (mainly by Kirchheimer), but here distinctively absorbing Carl Schmitt's influence (his concept of the political). On this, see the brilliant book by Scheuerman, Between the Norm and the Exception - The Frankfurt School and the Rule of Law.

And nowadays this thesis is endorsed mainly by Straussians. One would say that this is Strauss' main political thesis: "Why do Athenians believed in their autochtony, if not to self-justify slavery? Why do Hindus believe in karma theory, except to self-justify a chaste system that would be otherwise indefensible?" (Natural Right and History, p. 29 - I'm (re)translating from my portuguese translation, so check the original).

PS: I do not intend to defend the work in question. I do not know it and it surely looks suspicious to me. My point is merely theoretical on the origin of the thesis in question and on who nowadays defends it. It's surely strange that Said's pupils end up sharing the views of nazi Carl Schmitt and nihilistic (Schmittian influenced) Leo Strauss...

November 4, 2007 1:00 PM

mrcookie1 said:

CRS9TNR,

Of course, in any tenure decision, your framework - academic integrity v free speech - is critical.  However, the point of the Cohler-Esses article is that there is very little or almost no "academic credibility" to the charges levied against this professor because, according to him, there is no basis in truth for almost all of them.  In fact, the larger point of his article, is that this very lack of integrity is, again, according to the author, a staple of the criticism coming from the folks who are strenuously opposing this particular professor.  Even more frightening, Cohler-Esses claims that they really aren't concerned about this issue and when he contacted one of the most vocal critics, she got cheesed off that he was asking her to verify her claims.  She seemed to just know that they were true, irrespective of the fact that she had not, in fact, even read the professor's book.

The Spine is pretty black and white granted.  But what I do get from some of the acolytes whom I do admire and trust is a commitment to "truth and facts".  Now, if this professor in question actually did write all these goofy claims, then prove it.  If she didn't, admit it and reveal your real reason for opposing her tenure, which, in that case, would be political disagreements and that certainly a bit less elevated a perspective than claiming sole allegiance to "academic integrity".

November 4, 2007 1:03 PM

babigail said:

Now I really must put my hands on this book.

CRS9TNR is right in his praise for the Israeli academic community. They are above reproach.  If she is challenging their archaeological conclusions she better do it damn well, or she'll become the laughing stock of this field.

But I can't even begin to understand Mr. Bollinger's deliberations (if he has any, according to CRS9TNR) between the value of the academic work of any of his professors and freedom of speech! Hey, he's not running a parliament here! It's an academic institute for heaven's sake! He can't possibly overlook bad quality and sacrifice the academic level of this school for the sake of some obscure freedom of speech or diversification of views!

Approving a tenure is not in any way comparable with an invitation to the Iranian idiot, who gives a one-night stand and goes back to his hole.

November 4, 2007 1:18 PM

luispc said:

Cookie

I really did not want to argument with you again (the other day, I was a bit harsh and feel a bit guilty...perhaps, I confess, expelling the angst of having delivered my thesis to my orientator and expecting his judgment and canalizing too much energy to Talkback, with you being a victim... MEA CULPA AND LET'S DROP IT)

Anyway, aren't you the one being black and white, here, dividing the world in acolytes and not acolytes? And on a wider perspective, isn't precisely the difficulty on this subject the persistent tendency to divide the world between evil and strong Israel and poor and weak Palestinians?

From what I can see, this kind of attitude only takes the so called "weaks" not to undertake the responsibilities they must undertake, offering everyone around an excuse not to think about their own problems and think of themselves as very commited with "justice" after superficially knowing about what's happening.

November 4, 2007 1:50 PM

jacksondyer said:

I agree with your comments luis that marxists too, to a degree, believe, in the idea of social "self fashioning." But only to a degree since Marx did hold that there is such a thing as an historical  dialectic which is beyond human self fashioning.

I haven't thought much about the Straussian point you brought up and for now I'll take your word for it.

November 4, 2007 1:58 PM

jacksondyer said:

Cookie again,

"However, the point of the Cohler-Esses article is that there is very little or almost no "academic credibility" to the charges levied against this professor because, according to him, there is no basis in truth for almost all of them."

You can ignore my posts all you want but that want make your comments any truer.  

In your hurry to heckle Peretz you misread Cohler-Esses.

Besides given your anti-Peretz paranoia, you are the last person any reader should take seriously when you posts comments here.

November 4, 2007 2:03 PM

jacksondyer said:

CRS9TNR, got it right when he said that,

"Nadia Abu El-Haj has picked a suject and is trying to politicize it.  Marty's statements about the Israeli Archeology and Reviews are consistent with what I have seen before on the subject.  Israeli scholorship on history and archeology are brutally objective.  El-Haj does not seem to meet this rigor and obviously has a bias that will undermine her future work."

November 4, 2007 2:04 PM

mrcookie1 said:

luispc,

no need for any apology.  I [almost] never take anything personally.  I always enjoy your posts and to be honest, I really rather dislike this new new format. As for the acolytes, yes, it points to a rather natural tendency to compartmentalize people I agree but it suits me for the purposes of this kind of blogging.  Besides, just when I start to feel badly about coining the term...there comes...

Jackson,

You call it heckling.  I see it as posting another alternative opinion and letting the chips fall.  Jack, you must allow this breathtaking possibility that someone can disagree with your North Star - or in this case, point out a rather coincidental opposing post on the same day - and not be malevolent. In fact, I would love to know if Marty has actually read this particular book - I haven't  but Cohler-Esses says he has - and if his post is buttressed by personal scrutiny.  If so, then this points out the permutable nature of intellectual inquiry.  If he hasn't read the book, he should, especially before writing a post about it.

Jackson, you are constantly trying to elbow out opposing viewpoints yet you profess to be such a democrat, big D version.  Rather disconcerting to this sensitive poster I may add...

luispc, good luck on the prospectus.  I turn in my prospectus this month and hope to move on to candidacy in January.  But you never know.

ta ta...

November 4, 2007 3:21 PM

jacksondyer said:

"You call it heckling.  I see it as posting another alternative opinion and letting the chips fall. "

What chips are those. You either have some positive knowledge about what is being talked about or you don't, period. Your only contribution is to attack Peretz. Why? Because you despise his politics. No matter the issue you will gainsay it. If this isn't heckling then what is it?

"Jack, you must allow this breathtaking possibility that someone can disagree with your North Star - or in this case, point out a rather coincidental opposing post on the same day - and not be malevolent."

I don't think that Cohler-Esses was malevolent. Still, he has read the material and you misunderstood what he said. Was it purposeful misunderstanding, Cookie? Or was it just another occasion for you to knee jerk another antiPeretz diatribe?

"In fact, I would love to know if Marty has actually read this particular book - I haven't  but Cohler-Esses says he has - and if his post is buttressed by personal scrutiny.  If so, then this points out the permutable nature of intellectual inquiry...."  

This is a funny question coming from someone who hasn't read the book.

This is what Peretz said about the book, (did you even read his post?)

"I've looked at the book, Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society.   I guess that these days you can write a book about a country whose language you don't know, at least if your tenure decision depends on a man like Bollinger, cowardly and self-important at once.  The thesis of El-Haj's 2001 study is that Israel has skewed its archaeological practice to distort the history of the Jews in the ancient land, to put Jews where there were not Jews and to retrospectively eliminate others who had been there.  This is nonsense."

You are a case, Cookie.

November 4, 2007 3:45 PM

mrcookie1 said:

look = read?

I was in Border's yesterday and I "looked" at Ann Coulter's latest...but did not read it.

you are purposely ignoring the obvious:  Cohler-Esses says that he has read the book and claims that almost all the points being bandied about the book are baseless.  He did not "look" at the book, he read it.

Marty has a 180 degree opposite post.  He does not say he read the book, he says he "looked" at it.  To point this out earns lashes from jacksondyer.

My point is this: Who is more trustworthy and/or believable?  As FOXGOP says, you decide.

jack, you love Marty so much, you are unable to process any critique of the man's pov or actions.  You sound like his son or brother...

November 4, 2007 4:00 PM

jacksondyer said:

"jack, you love Marty so much, you are unable to process any critique of the man's pov or actions.  You sound like his son or brother..."

You are disgusting.

I offered reasons above as to why I consider Nadia's book deficient.  I know that Luis understood what I wrote but  I doubt that you undestood much of what I wrote there.

Your reasons for attacking Peretz are personal.  You don't like him. That's all there is to it.  You also misread Cohler-Esses' article. The article was a ctitique of a Ms. Stein's views and Peretz is mentioned only once:

"The campaign to deny her tenure has received public support from figures such as Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief of The New Republic, who stated, incorrectly,  last month that Abu El-Haj “believes that archeology proves there were never any Hebrews in the Holy Land.”

It is safe to say that Peretz in his post said  much more than that about the post modern "archeological"  book.

In fact it is Cohler-Esses himself who says in his article

"The book implicitly rejects widespread Jewish self-perception of the Zionist enterprise as one in which Jews have returned to a land to which they have always been inherently connected.....

The book discusses these issues using the loaded jargon of academic post-structuralism, referring frequently to “national origin myth,” “making place,” “self-fashioning” and “privileging” certain concepts, methodologies or paradigms. It strongly rejects a positivist world view in which knowledge is something objectively out there that is simply discovered, through empirical investigation, rather than interpreted."

So Nadia does not pace Cohler-Esses believe that "there never were any Hebrews holy land" but she does believe that "Jewish self-perception of the Zionist enterprise as one in which Jews have returned to a land to which they have always been inherently connected..." is wrong.  In other words Jews have not always been inherenlty been connected to the holy land.  

Peretz' view as other posters have said above seems to summarize Nadia's thesis much more accurately than do those who deny that the Columbia "archelogist  deconstrcts," or tries to, the Jews' presence in their country.

Your own hatred of Peretz, Cookie, has dimmed whatever glimmer of light was still burning in your brain.

November 4, 2007 4:35 PM

mollysimon said:

Cookie,

It's Paula Stern's misinterpretation of the book that Cohler-Esses is calling into question--not a bunch of enraged academics.   Along the way, he bothered to check with experts on their views of some of her claims.  Some of them, who oppose her book, have good reasons for doing so.  Saying otherwise makes it seem as if academia in general has exploded over her book.  

Also, I get nervous when I read professors bandy about po-mo terms like "historicity" and "origin myth."  It's this kind of nonsense language I endured during the eighties, when I was in college.   THe professors who threw around this kind of jargon had tendentious ideas, to say the least, and used their po-mo views to misinterpret just about everything in their way.  Don't ask me about how the word "unspeakable," in a George Eliot novel, got mangled into the idea that a woman's experience that can't be circumscribed within language.  

Re: acolytes, it is a black/white word on your part.  Some of agree with Marty much of the time.  That does not an acolyte make.

November 4, 2007 4:44 PM

babigail said:

Cookie, I'm not interested in whether MP read this book or not.

I'm more interested in what Cohler-Esses says, he who declares to have read it.

If you were to write an article that purports to deny claims made at a book, wouldn't you make a more thorough job of it, and bring forth some citations or a heavier thesis that disproves these claims? He mainly says that the claims are not true, but doesn't corroborate it in any serious way.

In fact, in the Jewish Week he focuses on what Stern said (which was in fact baseless bullshit evidently), and then on what others said, and how these ones praised her book and the others rejected it.

When he talks about the essence of the book it looks like it's one big lamentation about the behavior of Israel and man, haven't we had plenty of these by now, and that the Jews' connection to Israel wasn't all that strong and thus not justified.

As if she's the supreme judge of what a whole people is allowed to yearn for.

By his article I didn't get the feeling that she actually bases her thesis on real archaeological findings. But maybe she does.

Her main purpose according to Cohler-Esses is to delegitimize the Jews' wish to establish their home in Israel based on how much she disapproves of them... Not to make a real archaeological statement.

Big deal.    

Arabs have been saying it for the last 100 years without any need to resort to archeology.  So she kinda touches upon archeology for some new reinforcement. It can't possibly be valid. Israeli and non-Israeli researchers have found enough evidence all over this country to tie the Jews to Israel without a shadow of a doubt.

Plus there's the bible there, you know. As a historical document. Found in the Qumran caves.

www.showcaves.com/.../Qumran.html

And as I said, if Bollinger clears her for tenure in his establishment in spite of the poor quality of her arguments, then this establishment has a big problem. He could take his time and find more talented anti-Israel professors if he wanted to chalk up his anti-Israel square.

But I haven't read the book. Maybe it's a great piece of argumentation.

Who cares? So Jews have invented this craving for Israel and their whole past and heritage too.

Too late now to do anything about it ain't it.

November 4, 2007 4:52 PM

babigail said:

Molly,

I didn't understand this sentence of yours, and i wanna understand it:

"Don't ask me about how the word "unspeakable," in a George Eliot novel, got mangled into the idea that a woman's experience that can't be circumscribed within language."

And I agree with every word you said about this prof lingo that's growing like cancer all around us and strips words and speech of any meaning.

also: Could anyone give me a good explanation as to what purpose or vision this Remember Me! checkbox serves?

November 4, 2007 5:04 PM

jacksondyer said:

MollySimon:   "Don't ask me about how the word "unspeakable," in a George Eliot novel, got mangled into the idea that a woman's experience that can't be circumscribed within language."

I don't know about the specific example Molly has in mind, but the view she describes is often expressed by post modern feminist Professors who will take a certain term in a text and extend it to mean something universal.

In this case "unspeakable" which is often used in VIctorian fiction (and I just read it in a Trollope novel) to denote some moral point of view is extended to apply to all issues pertaining to the representation of women in fiction. This is hardly what George Eliot would have had in miind since she was a writer interested primarily in moral themes.

There is one critic I know, J Hillis Miller who argued that Eliot (like all writers was interested primarily in representation) but that is a bit of a stretch. In any case the notion that a specific human experience, be it moral or not, can't be represented in language is unique to women nor is it particularly enlighting to focus on it as if it were a truism.

November 4, 2007 5:30 PM

jacksondyer said:

"also: Could anyone give me a good explanation as to what purpose or vision this Remember Me! checkbox serves?"

I haven't a clue about it, Abigail. However, I have been having to sign in each time I access TNR webiste.

Have other people had the same experience or is this a problem with my own computer?

November 4, 2007 5:31 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Ladies,

Fascinating stuff.  I have learned more from your posts than from the two articles under discussion.  Also, the version of Cohler-Esses' article in The Nation must be an edited one. Peretz is not mentioned at all...let me check....nope.  Not there. So the longer version that ran in The Jewish Week must mention him.  But not in the version in The Nation.

babs, your thoughts on Stern are good.  I think the reason why C-E may have focused on her is because, according to the version I read in The Nation, he identified her as the "alum who has organized an online petition demanding that El-Haj be denied tenure."  I am going to have to get my hands on this prof's book.  There is just too much disparity about what she did or did not say.  My guess is that neither C-E or Peretz are really giving a completely transparent reading of actually is in the book.  So, another book to read in my "spare" time.

Cheerio ladies.  Oh yes, really, when you come right down to it, lovable jackson is probably the only true acolyte.  Sleepy goes off the reservation sometimes, and with the disappearance of olez, there really aren't any acolytes who measure up to the jackson Olympian standard.  But, that is why I love him..:)

November 4, 2007 7:52 PM

mollysimon said:

"[P]ost modern feminist Professors who will take a certain term in a text and" completely change or invert the meaning.  

In this case, "unspeakable" was meant to describe sexual arousal which, in Victorian literature, is unsayable.  But the prof., in my case, was saying that George Eliot's "subtext" was that what women experience/feel cannot be written with our current "phallocentric" language.  Yes, phallocentric is actually a word.  

"In any case the notion that a specific human experience, be it moral or not, can't be represented in language is unique to women nor is it particularly enlighting to focus on it as if it were a truism."  That' better put than anything I could add.  

I majored in English, not women's studies, which I thought was a bogus-sounding phrase even at the tender age of 18.  There were many courses that focused on women in literature/reprsentations of women in literature, history, sociology, etc. The ones I took, other than one I describe above, were not tainted with said crap.  

November 4, 2007 9:06 PM

jacksondyer said:

mrcookie you are an asshole and a complete waste of time. No one can learn anything from you.

You get everything wrong and your hateful attitude towards Peretz makes all that you write about him worthless trash.

I am  no acolyte but I am proud to defend  him from a hateful degenerate like you.

November 4, 2007 10:30 PM

jacksondyer said:

mollysimon said:  "In this case, "unspeakable" was meant to describe sexual arousal which, in Victorian literature, is unsayable.  But the prof., in my case, was saying that George Eliot's "subtext" was that what women experience/feel cannot be written with our current "phallocentric" language.  Yes, phallocentric is actually a word."

There is a lot of Victorian literature and it has been my experience that Profs who use terms like phallocentric tend not to read literature but concentrate most of their efforts on reading people like Foucault and Lacan.

There are many passionate moments even in George Eliot's novels.  Dickens of course didn't write about sex but other writers did broach the subject.

There is a short work  by Trollope called "Nina Balatka : The Story of a Maiden of Prague "

by Anthony Trollope , 1879 which is surpsing in many ways. It's about a Jewish man's love for a Christian girl which is described in carnal if not explicit terms.

Trollope wrote too much and he is too wordy at times, but he does lots of passionate scenes which come close to ascribing sexuality as a motivating reason for human attraction.

I have a lot to say about George Eliot but this isn't the place for it.  For exmaple, in her last novel Daniel Deronda she does touch on a sado masochistic relation which only a blind reader would think that she didn't represent honestly the difficult situation of women in her time.

November 4, 2007 10:43 PM

mrcookie1 said:

my my...you are in rare form tonight.  I love you too...

November 4, 2007 11:45 PM

sleepyavl said:

Cookie, read better.

I didn't say the author of the article, that Larry, is a Marxist. I don't give a shit whether he is or not, or what orientation he or Marty have. What I DID write was that Nadia Abu El-Haj is a shoddy scholar and a Marxist. Someone who doesn't read or write Hebrew and is not an archeologist yet makes claims about what Israeli do or say is simply not a scholar in that field. Unqualified opinions do not and should not grant someone tenure at a major university. Her opinion is as good as that of anyone in this Talkback. Yet most of us don't pretend we deserve a university chair for this chit-chat.

You have a black spot on your brain for Marty Peretz. Whoever he will berate, you will love. If it means embracing a charlatan full of hatred and with no competence, as Nadia Abu, you do it. If it means embracing someone who explicitly denies the value of empirical testing, as Nadia Abu does, that's fine with you.

Perhaps one day you'll be less irrational. It's not the case now. Look who exactly you are defending - an Islamofascist -, if you have some lucidity.

November 5, 2007 12:19 AM

babigail said:

Oh, but Cookie wasn't defending her at all. He was merely seizing the opportunity to lash at Marty by comparing the validity of both opinions, namely Marty's and C-E's.

In fact, I don't think he hates Peretz, or believes that we are MP's acolytes. I think he's just doing his best to have fun while talking back here. It can't be that bad. He's merely stoking the conversation and animating it a bit.

Come on, lighten up.

I guess you know Nadia's work well enough to say what you're saying about her academic achievements, sleepy.

As for me, if she makes sound arguments even as an anti-semite and Jew hater, then her treatise has to be confronted properly and answered seriously.

It's really not good enough to proclaim her a Jew hater, and leave her claims unanswered.

If I ever get around to it I'll read her book (or just LOOK at it...) and then, IF and only if she makes a strong and valid case, I'll do my best to destroy her thesis. Otherwise I'll join you in declaring her a worthless antisemite and not bother any more about the actual content of her work.

------------------

Thanks for the extensive explanations Jackson and Molly.

Oh, btw: I used to live in George Elliot street in Tel Aviv, (yes, there is a street after her here), and we, veteran residents of the street,  would make sure the novices, who had just moved in, knew who she was...  

---------------------

Marty, this Remember Me! thingie? It's getting on my nerves. I feel like an irresponsible criminal when I don't check it, and a complete retard when I do.

November 5, 2007 5:07 AM

luispc said:

OK Cookie, I'll let you play everyone's great oncle ;). But just this once.

November 5, 2007 9:18 AM

mrcookie1 said:

babs,

you know, I have always thought you were the toughest of the Spinifiers - in a good way - and now I know you're the most rational!  Of course I like to stoke it up.  Really, I hardly think that my comments on this thread amount to an "attack".  I do however believe that in the past, I have been too hard on Peretz and several good posters - sleepy and sobel - have pointed that out and I always remember that. Still, stating that I do not trust Peretz to accurately represent the words of those he disagrees with hardly warrants an accusation of degenerancy...that gave me a pretty big belly laugh.  But then, I stopped laughing and wondered...how does jackson know??? :)

luispc, have you advanced to candidacy?  If so, congrats.  If not, when do you think you will?  Just wonderin....

November 5, 2007 9:30 AM

luispc said:

I don't know exactly what you mean with the difference between prospectus and candidacy.

Here, one delivers the thesis to the orientator and then, after his judgment, one delivers it to a body of professors from the Universities of Lisbon and Coimbra and, then, discusses it in a public proof. Afterwards, one is a Doctor and not only a Dr.. Unless a catastrophe happens, I will get the title (so I'm already what you would call a candidate). My question is if it will be enough to get professorship. I do hope so, but I will only know it after the proof, which will take place one year from now.

November 5, 2007 10:13 AM

jacksondyer said:

Cookie: "Still, stating that I do not trust Peretz to accurately represent the words of those he disagrees with hardly warrants an accusation of degenerancy...that gave me a pretty big belly laugh.  But then, I stopped laughing and wondered...how does jackson know??? :)"

and a moron as well.

there are many ways to de-generate. in your case it's obvious that your obsessive negative fixation on Peretz has collapsed your already weak synapses in your brain. Your inability to interpret what you read is a sign of that.

November 5, 2007 11:13 AM

mrcookie1 said:

luispc,

Just a difference in terms, I think.  What you are describing sounds to me like the "defense" that will come after I have completed my chapters 3, 4, and 5. In the program that suffers me, we must submit a "prospectus", which is read by 3 profs who then, according to a rubric, determine if we "advance" to candidacy, which is the greenlight to form a doctoral committee, headed by a main advisor.  I am not at that point yet.  By Thanksgiving, I will have finished editing my chapters one and two (the prospectus) and then submit.  If I advance, I then form my committee, and start working on my methodology and defining a research instrument.  If that gets approved, I then gather my data, then write of chaper 4, which is a summary of the data.  Chapter 5 is bascially a summary of the argument and the data.

Quite an interesting process in all.  We have many Ph.d's here at tnr so this may sound familiar to the American students.  It appears that you are a citizen of Portugal - my son was there last year when he was touring Spain for 3 weeks - and that your process though similar, just has different terms and perhaps slightly different protocols.

Anyway, I hate talking about this kind of normative jive.  That is why on talkback, I always strive to keep it light.  Time and place laddie, time and place...

November 5, 2007 11:19 AM

mrcookie1 said:

good lord jack, give it a rest...

November 5, 2007 11:28 AM

jacksondyer said:

mrcookie1 said:  "good lord jack, give it a rest..."

take your own advice, buster.

November 5, 2007 1:12 PM

jacksondyer said:

mrcookie1 said:

" In the program that suffers me, we must submit a "prospectus", which is read by 3 profs who then, according to a rubric, determine if we "advance" to candidacy, which is the greenlight to form a doctoral committee, headed by a main advisor."

Try getting Nadia's advisor. He would pass anyone, even you.

November 5, 2007 1:14 PM

mrcookie1 said:

jack...speaking of obsessions...

honestly old man, don't you have anything better to do than to continue this rather sad harangue? Play the horses, take a walk, write a love letter to Marty but for chrissakes, cut the chord....no one is impressed.

November 5, 2007 1:27 PM

jacksondyer said:

put a sock in it, mrcookie, hypocrite.

November 5, 2007 1:39 PM

luispc said:

"laddie"? I like this new lightened version of Cookie! Anyway, in order to excell at it, you must quit the annying tendency to paternalize.

And good luck on that process!

November 5, 2007 1:47 PM

mrcookie1 said:

luispc,

Okay.  I will watch that!  No paternalism henceforth!

November 5, 2007 2:08 PM

sleepyavl said:

babigail, Nadia doesn't speak Hebrew and is not an archeologist. Yet she wrote authoritatively about what Israeli archeologists do and say.

Analogy: if you didn't go to med school but pretend to be taken seriously about neurosurgery, I will say you are worthless. Without apology.

November 5, 2007 9:04 PM

The Spine said:

School is open and Columbia University is up to its old tricks. Or, rather, its president, Lee Bollinger

September 14, 2008 12:17 AM

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