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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
27.09.2007
INSIDE THE COLUMBIA DRAMA
Columbia is "reeling," reads the headline in Wednesday's New York Times. Columbia is the Sulzbergers's university, and they had traditionally put a wordy buffer between what really happened at the institution and their paper's readers. Of course, that's virtually impossible to do these days. Still, it is not the Times that has excelled in reportage on Columbia during the past few tempestuous years. It is the Sun which has taken on that burden -- and, with some pleasure, I would think, since the university is a model of what the upstart daily thinks of as paradigmatic of the cowardice of liberal institutions in general. Or worse, the pusillanimity of liberal institutions when their very liberalism is being undermined from within. In any case, Columbia is really reeling; and its wobbliness about what it stands for has been magnified since Lee Bollinger became president. He is simply scared out of his wits by Edward Said's less bright heirs on Morningside Heights. I have posted on this matter before. Actually, I am sure that Said would never have condoned an invitation to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a lower class thug and a Shi'a besides, both an offense to Said's elitism and to his ill-fated Christian maneuvering to make Arab nationalism safely secular. I note that, with his usual discretion and allergy to street fights, Rashid Khalidi has not been heard from on the A'jad matter. He has bigger fish to fry: making sure that that vulgar practitioner of critical theory and deconstructor and rewriter of narratives, Joseph Massud, gets tenure. And that the Barnard tenure aspirant, Nadia Abu El-Haj, who believes that archeology proves there were never any Hebrews in the Holy Land, also is tenured. My guess is that, this time, the gang loses. Of course, it is not only Columbia that is reeling. It is Bollinger himself. The faculty see this; the students certainly see this; and the trustees who typically will give a president enough rope to hang himself see that he has. My conclusion is that Bollinger is on his way out. The mandate of heaven has deserted him. He has no authority, least of all moral authority. I also have a speculation about why the earnest protestations of Jewish students and others who were pro-Israel never could touch Bollinger about their terrible experiences in classes in the Middle East: he himself is Jewish, maybe an ambivalent Jew, maybe a frightened Jew, but a Jew nonetheless. There are three people who have played a curious role in this drama. One is John Coatsworth, whom Bollinger lured from Harvard to replace the sneaky Lisa Anderson as dean of the School of International and Public Affairs. What can one say about Coatsworth without having oneself strung up as a McCarthyite? Let's leave it at this: at least since graduate school at the University of Wisconsin he has been extremely radical. Why would a radical find common cause with an Islamic fascist? By the way, Coatsworth signed the Harvard divest-from-Israel petition. Did Bollinger imagine that such a person could (or would want to) restore calm to the Middle East programs at Columbia that were in his SIPA portfolio? Richard Bulliet is the Columbia historian who negotiated with the Iranians for their president's visit. I've read what I believe is a wonderful book of his, The Camel and the Wheel, although I admit that my credentials for judgment are slight. I've also read parts of The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization, a cross-your-fingers-and-hope book, predictably well-reviewed by Juan Cole, which is by now even worse than getting a good review from John Esposito. Bulliet was a supporter of the 1979 Iranian revolution. There's a personal angle for me in this saga. It involves a Columbia professor, Michael Stanislavski, whom I have known since he was an undergraduate at Harvard and I an assistant professor. He is a very good historian, and I've read three of his books on Jewish history. Moreover, I've learned from them, although my view of E.M. Lilien (someone you don't know of) is different than his. About two years ago, I was scheduled to speak at a Columbia meeting protesting the patent bias of the Middle Eastern faculty against Israel. Michael asked me not to come, arguing that, among other things, it would be unfair to Bollinger who was well-intentioned on the matter and would take deliberate action to solve the situation. I had no interest in inflaming it. So I called the student who had invited me and told him why I would, in the end, not speak. Still, I left out Professor Stanislavski's role in my decision. Stanislavski and I have had difficult exchanges since on these matters. He even wrote a letter to the chairman of a Jewish scholarly institution saying Columbia would not cooperate with it as long as I was on its board. It was a preposterous communication: one professor's pique doesn't decide whether his university would have an institutional relationship with another part of the academy. As this drama has unfolded I wondered what Stanislavski made of Bollinger's canceling A'jad last year, giving permission for his speaking this year. Inviting him and then attacking him, a cowardly act followed by an act of spurious bravery. There is in Jewish history the figure of the court-Jew. This Jew did financial and commercial business for the prince. Sometimes he was a medical doctor and cared for the prince and his family. He also tried to intercede for the Jews when trouble was coming their way. Sometimes he succeeded, sometimes he failed. I guess Michael failed. But Jews no longer need court-Jews, and they haven't for at least a century. It must be sad trying to fill a function that has been obsolete for so long.

Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:34 AM with 100 comment(s)

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mrcookie1 said:

I have no way of knowing this...but I have my hunches and though I do not have a scintilla of proof... one can only imagine what those "difficult" exchanges have been like between you and your former student/friend. Based upon your never ceasing efforts at civility, even handedness, and comity here on the boards, my mind positively reels with possibilities... but it does seem a bizarre trek from Peretzian 'friend" to being called, in print, a "court Jew". With "friends" like you....
September 27, 2007 9:39 AM

jacksondyer said:

Is someone paying you to heckle him, Cookie? If not, give it a rest.
September 27, 2007 9:56 AM

jacksondyer said:

NY Time article, for many reasons is the following one: "Noah Feldman, a Harvard law professor who was a consultant to the Coalition Provisional Authority set up in Iraq after the ouster of Saddam Hussein, said he did not consider Mr. Bollinger's performance to be rude. "There are some issues where it is appropriate to be delicate and careful, and to use exaggerated politeness," he said. "But there are some issues of such grave importance that being too polite to your guest is actually a betrayal of your beliefs. For Lee Bollinger, the Holocaust is one. I applaud him for that." I wonder if anyone would have been upset if some College President had had the chance to skewer Stalin in public? One aspect of all this has not been discussed yet. The Iranian Mullahcrocy is known to hold grudges and to kill their enemies. Iranian government officials were indicted in the Buenos Aires terror bombing that killed over a hundre people. Also, let's not forget the Salman Rushdie affair. How long before a fatwa is issued against the College head. I hope Bollinger has a strong body guard around him.
September 27, 2007 10:02 AM

ratnerstar said:

Issuing a fatwa against Bollinger would be about the most counterproductive thing the Iranian government could do. I doubt they're that stupid.
September 27, 2007 10:15 AM

mrcookie1 said:

I wondered how you were going to use your magician like powers to defend Peretz in this sad and sorry episode. To slander someone who is supposed to be a "friend' with an epithet like "court Jew" is pretty low. I thought that that crude and incomprehensible "friend" like behavior would penetrate even the strongest Perezian fealty... I was wrong...
September 27, 2007 10:19 AM

thomsondavid said:

"Why would a radical find common cause with an Islamic fascist?" Is this a rhetorical question? One hopes that Marty Peretz is not that naive. Both the radicals and the Islamic fascists hate America. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is a tacit understanding adhered to throughout history. Destroying the "evil empire" is their common goal. It's really as simple as that.
September 27, 2007 10:36 AM

The Ignorant Populist said:

Is there any part of your soul, life, personality or existence that isn't Jewish? I mean, I work hard everyday at being a "Professional Irishman" but there's still a little bit of me that is...well...just another bloke. Not green, not special, you know like everyone else. I don't know, is it because you are older - the closer you get to the grave the more religious and partisan you get? I mean, god almighty, everything you post is about this Jew, that anit-semite, a house Jew, a Jewish slander, a Jew hating Muslim bigot, a...on and on and on. Come up for air every once and a while Marty. Give us Spine addicted losers a break and put up a post about something, anything that isn't Jewish.
September 27, 2007 10:52 AM

thomsondavid said:

A Jew must be far more cognizant of their Jewishness than an Irishman of their Irishness. This is because the world will not let them forget that they are Jews. When were the Irish ever transported to concentration camps? When was the last time the UN condemned Ireland for alleged injustices? The Irish have usually suffered from indifference and mild discrimination----but never have they been victims of widespread blind hatred.
September 27, 2007 11:26 AM

SMacEachern2 said:

Given that Peretz has called a Holocaust survivor, George Soros, a 'young cog in the Hitlerite wheel' - that is, in a mealy-mouthed way, he called Soros a Nazi - I don't see why anyone would be surprised to see him call Michael Stanislavski a 'court Jew'. Nor, for that matter, is it any surprise to hear him claim that Nadia Abu El-Haj "...believes that archeology proves there were never any Hebrews in the Holy Land..." when in fact she never says that at all, in any way. That's a blatant, bare-faced lie, but I suppose that from Peretz's point of view, it's all for the Greater Good.
September 27, 2007 11:30 AM

jacksondyer said:

"I doubt they're that stupid." Oh, they'll probably outsource it.
September 27, 2007 11:35 AM

jacksondyer said:

Never get involved in "family" quarrels. Your problem is that you wish Peretz would take note of you and attack you. You are really are desperate for recognition. Don't worry, I doubt he knows you exist.
September 27, 2007 11:37 AM

jacksondyer said:

"Is there any part of your soul, life, personality or existence that isn't Jewish?" What's wrong with being a Jew and being concerned about Jewish issues? Jews really bother you, don't they.
September 27, 2007 11:40 AM

The Ignorant Populist said:

"The Irish have usually suffered from indifference and mild discrimination----but never have they been victims of widespread blind hatred." I'm going to break my rule about not replying to you TD - cause you're a nut but you make this old communist look good, not an easy task on this site. We, somehow, survived the greatest famine ever suffered by anyone, anywhere, ever - World without end Amen. Half the island either emigrated or starved to death. All of that while corn was being exported. (The supply-side centrist, sensible economic rationality of it's day.) So, we're victims too. But do you know what - we still eat spuds. Maybe Marty should take a break from being a Jew and get a bag of chips?
September 27, 2007 11:40 AM

thomsondavid said:

"Given that Peretz has called a Holocaust survivor, George Soros, a 'young cog in the Hitlerite wheel" Excuse me, but that is the truth of the matter. George Soros was indeed a "young cog in the Hitlerite wheel." It is very fair to describe him as both a self-hating Jew---and self-hating American.
September 27, 2007 11:40 AM

mrcookie1 said:

your partially correct...I wish Peretz would notice my advice because, being a do gooder at heart, I foolishly hold onto to the delusion that I could help him. But I am a fool...and Peretz is, sadly, beyond help.
September 27, 2007 12:02 PM

jacksondyer said:

"But I am a fool...and Peretz is, sadly, beyond help." LOL You wish you had had the success Peretz has had.
September 27, 2007 12:14 PM

mrcookie1 said:

I don't find anything wrong with being proud of who we are and internalizing that pride and using it as a lens to perceive the world. What bothers me about TNR, some Talk Back posters, a few acolytes, and Peretz himself, is that if an African American or Latino or Asian American exhibits the EXACT same amount of racial - rather than the cultural Jewish perspective in discussion - and brings that all consuming perspective - some may say solipsism - to everything... some tnr folks prattle on about "race baiters", or "race hustlers', or "identity politics". I ain't no shrink but if it is good for Peretz, why ain't it good for Jesse or Al or some hard core MECHA person? Why does Marty get a pass on this? I have always been troubled by this tnr double standard...
September 27, 2007 12:15 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

Excellent point Cookie. I'll keep that in mind next time I see the usual sh*te about "identity politics" being banded about.
September 27, 2007 12:20 PM

mrcookie1 said:

perhaps you are right... I love success and in some ways, Marty's success is admirable...and he is very smart...and I hope that my children grow up as well and have as much success as Marty's kids. I am so impressed with the accomplishments of his children. Did you read his daughter's piece in Vanity Fair. God, if my boys grow up to do stuff like that, I would be sending copies of their work to everyone I know... but in other ways, I would bet that Peretz would wish that he has had the success I have enjoyed. People respect me, they like me, I have many friends, none who I disparage in public, and my leadership has inspired many of those who I am privileged to serve.... yes, I will not deny that there are admirable Peretzian qualities...which is why I am so disappointed that he lets his demons and obsessions overwhelm his better angels...
September 27, 2007 12:21 PM

jacksondyer said:

"I ain't no shrink but if it is good for Peretz, why ain't it good for Jesse or Al or some hard core MECHA person?" Why do you ahve to be a "shrink" to make a comparison? Besides, shrink or no the compariosn doesn't work.
September 27, 2007 12:35 PM

jacksondyer said:

"but in other ways, I would bet that Peretz would wish that he has had the success I have enjoyed. People respect me, they like me, I have many friends, none who I disparage in public, and my leadership has inspired many of those who I am privileged to serve...." I'd bet you work very hard at being liked. I would also bet that Peretz has as many friends as you have and is admired among his personal friends as you say you are. I do not won't to disappoint you, but Peretz is successful in both his public as well as his private life. Best to stick to what he writes, Cookie and let the people he is quarreling deal with it. They can handle it, believe me.
September 27, 2007 12:42 PM

mrcookie1 said:

well, not having personal access to the happy Peretzian circle of friends, I cannot say one way or another. Perhaps your are among that hardy band of folks, so if you are, I will surely defer to your personal experience. Based upon the collective judgement of his colleagues and peers in journalism though, I rather doubt your cheery assessment of the popularity of the man. One only needs to read any number of colleagues - google his name one day if you have the time - to know that when making a seating chart for a gathering of editors, the brave hostess would be very challenged to find an appropriate place at any table for Martin H. Peretz... But still, I hear you...
September 27, 2007 1:01 PM

jacksondyer said:

of Bollinger's stance on free speech. It's one thing to invite and excoriate an Ahmadinejad, but would Bollinger ever dare to invite Chen Shui-bian another elected head of State to speak at Columbia U.?
September 27, 2007 1:03 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Based upon the collective judgement of his colleagues and peers in journalism though,..." There is about as much objective correlation between real life and the media as between dreams and wakeful existence.
September 27, 2007 1:06 PM

ndmackenzie said:

I have never understood Martin Peretz's fascination with the inner workings of academia. Perhaps it is his way of expressing regret for what might once have been but now will never be.

Regardless. Scott Paul, guesting on Steve Clemens Washington Note blog, writes about Columbia without recourse to Martin Peretz's mindless animosity:

The way Columbia President Lee Bollinger has dealt with, and in some cases, invited these controversies has surely made him many enemies, but I admire his even-handedness and courage to speak hard truths to people on all sides of the issues. His approach has likely made him many enemies and lost Columbia a few donors, but it has made me extremely proud to be an alum.

The atmosphere at Columbia surrounding the discussion and study of Middle East issues has been toxic long before Bollinger arrived from Michigan Law School in 2003. Student groups organized around Israeli-Palestinian issues have failed to treat each other with even a modicum of respect and have polarized the environment to such an extent that virtually no reasoned discussion is possible. Dialogue at the facultly level is not much better. ...

In his four-year tenure at Columbia, Bollinger has probably disappointed most students, faculty, and alumni at one time or another. Still, he has navigated at least three controversial high-profile guided primarily by his concern for free speech, intellectual honesty, the open exchange of ideas, and and the best interests of the university. It's also important to note that Bollinger could easily have avoided controversy by doing nothing, both on the Israeli universities boycott and Ahmadinejad's visit. Instead, he bravely spoke up and did the right thing in both cases.

Columbia may be losing money and credibility with Israel's most ardent supporters and its most vocal critics. But Bollinger is making a believer out of me

September 27, 2007 1:16 PM

roidubouloi said:

when he was invited to be president of Columbia (a step down in my opinion.) He was dean of the law school, then provost of Dartmouth College for a short time, then returned to Michigan as its president.
September 27, 2007 1:30 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Massad has been public enemy number one for Pipes and a number of Jewish organizations. When students came forward with complaints against Massad, Bollinger organized a committee to investigate, which contacted me at the time. The process satisfied neither Massad nor his accusers, but the committee's report ultimately failed to find any systematic abuses. To the great dismay of the inquisition, President Bollinger rightly accepted the report and put the issue to rest." This is not the last word on Massad: Joseph Massad's celebration of sexual repression and homophobia "Massad is at his most sinister with the use of the term "Gay International" which is a grotesque parody of the world Jewish conspiracy. This is, however, the moment when he reveals himself, not as the opponent of orientalism but as its proponent. Drawing on the construction of the Jew as as masquerading as normal while in fact working secretly for power, Gays are allocated similar attributes. For Massad a sexual encounter is an orchestrated event aimed at subjugating the "other," according to a missionary plan. The "other" can only inhabit a culturally pre-defined identity; it should be noticed, where he has no choice, no capacity to act independently. The "other" is only capable of being a victim. The Gay International, like the Jewish conspiracy, has great power in this discourse due to its sinister refusal to accept that it exists. Massad is an essentialist with some nasty intellectual connections."
September 27, 2007 1:33 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Columbia may be losing money and credibility with Israel's most ardent supporters and its most vocal critics. But Bollinger is making a believer out of me." From: Steve Clemens Washington Note linked to above. In other words what is bad for the Jewish lobby is good for Steve Clemens.
September 27, 2007 1:36 PM

ndmackenzie said:

Eric Alterman writes:
I worry that [Bollinger's introduction] happened because of the sustained campaign against Columbia by right-wing American Jews who seek to shut down academic discussion of the Palestinian question because they cannot control it. The insane focus on Columbia in The New York Sun is a real pain in the neck for Columbia and no doubt interferes with its fundraising. It is largely without intellectual merit -- the idea that it is difficult to assert one's Jewishness at Columbia University in the city of New York is among the most absurd notions to be found anywhere in American political discourse -- but it is a given in the Sun, the New York Post, Commentary, Marty Peretz's blog, and lots of places I can imagine but cannot document so I'll keep them to myself.

September 27, 2007 1:40 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Eric Alterman has marty's number, wrote that detailed dissection of him, and on this issue, once again, seems to part the insanity and get to the nut of the issue, which is, as Eric states, a control impulse. Frankly,,,and basman is free to comment...I truly believe that Peretz is afraid to engage Alterman. Unlike strawmen like Soros, Carter, Annan, Kerry - major figures who probably couldn't pick Peretz out of a line up - Alterman is a real person who is free to fight back. Marty appears afraid to engage. Interesting. But not to worry, jackson will do his fighting for him. And, as it has been throughout his life, having others fight his battles seems to suit his style.
September 27, 2007 1:54 PM

jacksondyer said:

any Jew who disagrees with him is a "right wing" Jew. The article was another one of his rant which was long on vitriol and short on specifics. Throwing out names like The NY Sun or some of the other publications he mentioned isn't proof that the attacks on Columbia's decision to invite Ahmadinejad are the result of a Jewish conspiracy. Moreover like too many leftist Alterman uses the term "insane" to describe an action he disagrees with instead of offering proof to support his decision. Alterman is merely using this sorry spectacle as an excuse to attack people he disagrees with. As a Journalist he is a disgrace.
September 27, 2007 1:55 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Eric Alterman has marty's number..." so like nazi mackenzie you love Eric Alterman. Why don't you post on his website and leave this forum for members of the dreaded "conspiratorial Jewish lobby."
September 27, 2007 1:57 PM

jacksondyer said:

"There's a personal angle for me in this saga. It involves a Columbia professor, Michael Stanislavski, whom I have known since he was an undergraduate at Harvard and I an assistant professor. He is a very good historian, and I've read three of his books on Jewish history." I can't find any reference to Michael Stanislavski's books either on amazon or the libraries I checked. Did you mispell his name? I'd like to know what he has written.
September 27, 2007 2:02 PM

lymon1 said:

Whenever I try to email the Spine it bounces, so I'm going to spew here: I'm sad nobody picked-up on the Bahai exchange -- A. effectively responded "they're not an officially recognized religion, so we can do what you want to them." Nobody, not Bollinger, the students, the media, or the ministers who met the next day, asked why they don't have freedom of religion or the other rights of the U.N. charter. Unlike gays ("they don't exist," or Israel ("Zionist entity" standard crap), here A. had made an admission. Yet even then nobody was willing to make Bahais a cause.
September 27, 2007 2:05 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Yet even then nobody was willing to make Bahais a cause." I am glad your brought this to my attention, Lymon. You need to make people aware of the fate of the members of the Bahai faith in more places than just this one obscure blog.
September 27, 2007 2:10 PM

jacksondyer said:

I'll bring it up everychance I get. Do you have a link to web site with more up to date info on this issue?
September 27, 2007 2:11 PM

jacksondyer said:

I'll bring it up every chance I get. Do you have a link to web site with more up to date info on this issue?
September 27, 2007 2:11 PM

mrcookie1 said:

I hardly have to defend Eric Alterman. I do read his blog and his columns. He is one of the best journalists on the scene and contrary to your perspective, I think that his work more than holds up to any Spine generated criticism. And I still think Marty is afraid of him. Why else won't he respond? Eric eviscerated him and not a peep. Quite out of character...or maybe not...
September 27, 2007 2:19 PM

jacksondyer said:

"And I still think Marty is afraid of him. Why else won't he respond? Eric eviscerated him and not a peep." Alterman's attack and I read it carefully wasn't worth a response as with every one of this articles his brillian writing style obscures its logical shortcomings and hides his mendacity. "He is one of the best journalists on the scene and contrary to your perspective, I think that his work more than holds up to any Spine generated criticism." If so, why then do hang around here?
September 27, 2007 2:23 PM

mrcookie1 said:

I, like Camus, love to touch two extremes at once...:)
September 27, 2007 2:47 PM

jacksondyer said:

"...love to touch two extremes at once" You only see the shortocomings of one side, though.
September 27, 2007 2:51 PM

lymon1 said:

Thank you! Here's a general but a bit dated overview: http://info.bahai.org/persecution_iran.html From the Columbia transcript: MR. ZREMSKI: We have many questions regarding the Baha'i religious minority in Iran. Many of our questioners say that the Baha'i minority has been deprived of their human rights. What would your response be to that? PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: In our constitution, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Zoroastrianism are recognized as the official religions. When we speak of religion, we refer to divine religions. In our country we follow that law, a law that is based on the majority vote of the people.
September 27, 2007 3:02 PM

miceelf said:

He misspelled it. It's "Stanslawski". Try "Tsar Nicholas I and the Jews" or "Zionism and the fin-de-siecle"
September 27, 2007 3:04 PM

miceelf said:

DOH, now *I* misspelled it. Trying again: Stanislawski" And, by the by- you simply asserted that a comparison between Sharpton's identity politics and Peretz's "doesn't work" Why not?
September 27, 2007 3:07 PM

ndmackenzie said:

jacksondyer is a pathetic brown-noser who has stuck his nose so far up Martin Peretz's ass that it is frequently hard to tell their noses apart.
September 27, 2007 3:08 PM

jacksondyer said:

"jacksondyer is a pathetic brown-noser who has stuck his nose so far up Martin Peretz's ass that it is frequently hard to tell their noses apart." This must be the most original sentence this freaking nazi has composed here.
September 27, 2007 3:23 PM

mrcookie1 said:

I have heard, from informed sources, that EA has several flaws, one being that he is a bit of a name dropper - I was at so and so's party and ran into my good friend, Mr. Big Wig - and he is rather tight with the pocket book. But, other than the name dropping - which though annoying, is hardly a singular or serious flaw - his journalism seems to hide his faults, rather than extentuate them, as happens with Peretz...
September 27, 2007 3:24 PM

jacksondyer said:

From the Columbia transcript: "MR. ZREMSKI: We have many questions regarding the Baha'i religious minority in Iran. Many of our questioners say that the Baha'i minority has been deprived of their human rights. What would your response be to that? PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: In our constitution, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Zoroastrianism are recognized as the official religions. When we speak of religion, we refer to divine religions. In our country we follow that law, a law that is based on the majority vote of the people." This is unbelievable. It reminds me of the way the Nazis and the Soviets also hid behind the law when they sent people to their deaths.
September 27, 2007 3:27 PM

jacksondyer said:

From the Columbia transcript: "MR. ZREMSKI: We have many questions regarding the Baha'i religious minority in Iran. Many of our questioners say that the Baha'i minority has been deprived of their human rights. What would your response be to that? PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: In our constitution, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Zoroastrianism are recognized as the official religions. When we speak of religion, we refer to divine religions. In our country we follow that law, a law that is based on the majority vote of the people." This is unbelievable. It reminds me of the way the Nazis and the Soviets also hid behind "the law" when they sent people to their deaths.
September 27, 2007 3:27 PM

jacksondyer said:

Thanks I checked you spelling and found some of his books. I will check them out. The one title that intrigued me was "Autobiographical Jews : essays in Jewish self-fashioning / Michael Stanislawski." this is because "self fashioning" in academic studies especially in what is called the "New History" has become a cliche. It was first introduced by Stephen Greenblatt in his book on the Renaissance. I will however check out his book and peruse it. Thanks.
September 27, 2007 3:35 PM

jacksondyer said:

"And, by the by- you simply asserted that a comparison between Sharpton's identity politics and Peretz's "doesn't work" Why not?" here is the short answer, and it should be obvious. Peretz doesn't believe in "identity politics," Sharpton does. Sharpton is a demagogue who uses violence and threats of violence to get his way. I don't believe the Mr. Peretz ever even threatened to sue anyone because they were anti-Jewish much less threatened violence. Even if you disagree with his political opinions it shoud be obvious that the comparison is outrageous, miceelf.
September 27, 2007 3:40 PM

mrcookie1 said:

make that accentuate... also, Peretz doesn't believe in "identity politics"? Ah, c'mon. Here is a guy who see anti semites around eveery corner, appears to be able to sniff out a "self hating Jew" from 100 yards, guards the gates of true Jewish identification the way a hungry wolf guards his cornered pack of Russians, and see his imprimatur as the final word on all things Jewish... this is a guy who doesn't believe in "identity politics"? jackson, the only person you're fooling is yourself...
September 27, 2007 3:46 PM

thufir said:

I would be interested in hearing your definition of 'identity politics', jacksondyer. It seems to this casual observer that Mr Peretz is an advanced practicioner of the creed. Soros the Nazi, Walt and Mearsheimer the anti-Semites, Stanislawski the court Jew, etc. (I do not buy your apparent assertion that one must issue a lawsuit or threaten violence to be guilty of identity politics.)
September 27, 2007 3:53 PM

jacksondyer said:

Seeing anti-Semites or anti Black, or anti-Gay around every corner may be pathological but it is not a sign of a belief in "identity politics." Besides I don't think Peretz sees antisemites "around every corner." This is a figment of your imagination.
September 27, 2007 3:53 PM

miceelf said:

Okay- so Sharpton sues (or threatens to do so) or incites violence (or threatens to do so). (although the latter has thankfully not happened in a very long time. I'll grant you that those are differences, but I didn't see either as a necessary component of identity politics. I can see how if you see them as part of it, the comparison is not plausible. I'm not sure that is what most people mean when they say "identity politics"- but let's not use Sharpton. Pick another African American, who doesn't sue people or engage in violence. They DO however, publically make sweeping statements about who is and isn't "really Black," and see racism where few non-Black people would see it (they may also see racism where others DO see it of course, but that's not part of the usual definitino of identity politics). How is such a person different from Mr. Peretz?
September 27, 2007 4:08 PM

jacksondyer said:

Identity Politics "The laden phrase "identity politics" has come to signify a wide range of political activity and theorizing founded in the shared experiences of injustice of members of certain social groups. Rather than organizing solely around ideology or party affiliation, identity politics typically concerns the liberation of a specific constituency marginalized within its larger context. Members of that constituency assert or reclaim ways of understanding their distinctiveness that challenge dominant oppressive characterizations, with the goal of greater self-determination." Had Peretz believed that Jews should be treated as a minority and accorded special privileges both in academia and in the workplace then you might have a point. Nor has he argued that Jew should only study Jewish subjects taught only by Jews. The fact that Peretz is interested in Jewish issues is not sufficient to brand him a practitioner of identity politics. There were and are a number of Black leaders who worked on behalf of the Black community who also didn't believe in identity politics. The labor leader Asa Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin come to mind.
September 27, 2007 4:08 PM

miceelf said:

no one made that claim, as indicating identity politics. Nor working on behalf of the Jewish community. I was speaking specifically about defining other peoples' authenticity as Jews, AND as being more sensitive to putative anti-semitism than most people are.
September 27, 2007 4:17 PM

jacksondyer said:

"I was speaking specifically about defining other peoples' authenticity as Jews, AND as being more sensitive to putative anti-semitism than most people are." Common, miceelf, Jews have doing this since the time of Ezra.
September 27, 2007 4:25 PM

mrcookie1 said:

your tortured "logic" defies reality... on the base issue of "identity politics", that someone sees the world primarily through their racial/cultural perspective, that any injustice towards their group is animated by racial/cultural animus, and that those who do not adhere to his or her exact definition of how one must identify with their racial/cultural group... seems, even to a casual observer, to fit Peretz like a well manicured hand to a soft glove... unless one, of course, believes that only black or brown people, who are not Jewish i guess, can even be capable of practicing the oft maligned art of "identity" politics... if that is what you believe, just say it...
September 27, 2007 4:27 PM

mrcookie1 said:

...do not pass the authencity test... sorry, got distracted...
September 27, 2007 4:30 PM

teplukhin2you said:

but my $0.02 here is that the "court jew" slur represents a new low for the Spine. Advantage Mr Cookie.
September 27, 2007 4:38 PM

jacksondyer said:

You didn't seem to have understood the encyclopedia definition. It's the context that matters. You hate Peretz and you will throw everything at him including the kitchen sink if you could. I am not surprised then that you would twist the definition to include him as an adherent of identity politics.
September 27, 2007 4:48 PM

jacksondyer said:

did indeed believe in "identity politics." Though its anachronistic to call it that. advantage: moi
September 27, 2007 4:50 PM

jacksondyer said:

disadvantage: teplukhin2you
September 27, 2007 4:51 PM

mrcookie1 said:

your are priceless... advantage; moi...I LOVED that... Peretz must have done something in a previous life to deserve a bodyguard like you. You're more impenetrable than the Swiss Guard...
September 27, 2007 5:03 PM

miceelf said:

African Americans have been doing it a long time, too. With much more criticism from Mr. Peretz.
September 27, 2007 5:36 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Peretz must have done something in a previous life to deserve a bodyguard like you." No, I just don't hate the way and many posters here do. Besides, I can't stand political identity-politics and would have noticed it right away if he believed in it. Your problem, Cookie, is that you don't know much about Jewish cultural history or debating styles and try to make sense of them by superimposing those cultural and social styles you do know. Believe me, the Tikkun crowd is more into identity politics than is Peretz. Political-identity is a leftist not a traditional liberal socio-political perspective.
September 27, 2007 6:00 PM

jacksondyer said:

"African Americans have been doing it a long time, too. With much more criticism from Mr. Peretz." Really, since the time of Ezra? Seriously, what do you mean by a "long time?"
September 27, 2007 6:01 PM

miceelf said:

Is your phrasing, not mine. African Americans have been doing it as long as there have been African Americans.
September 27, 2007 6:08 PM

ratnerstar said:

I imagine Cookie knows as much about Jewish culture and debating styles as Peretz knows about black culture and debating styles.
September 27, 2007 6:09 PM

ratnerstar said:

Damn, that came out like a slight against cookie. My point was actually that Peretz doesn't hesitate to superimpose his idea of culture on African Americans.
September 27, 2007 6:12 PM

thomsondavid said:

"My point was actually that Peretz doesn't hesitate to superimpose his idea of culture on African Americans." Oh my goodness, everybody knows that blacks are suppose to be vulgar, sexually promiscuous, self pitying, and pray daily at the altar of Snoop Dog. Isn't that the politically correct definition of authentic blackness?
September 27, 2007 6:34 PM

jacksondyer said:

both points may be true, ratner.
September 27, 2007 6:39 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Is your phrasing, not mine. African Americans have been doing it as long as there have been African Americans." Maybe, but identity politics is quite different from socio-culural identity and squables over socio-cultural identity.
September 27, 2007 6:43 PM

mrcookie1 said:

I totally disagree with you on the supposed jack distinction between identity politics vis a vis socio cultural identity. However, I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns on this. You see it your way, I see it mine. As always a pleasure. Very civilized debate. The kind that makes Talk Back a pleasure. Unfortunately, I am out for the next three or four hours. Take care.
September 27, 2007 7:29 PM

miceelf said:

Isn't it possible that "identity politics" is a label that non-African Americans apply to a cultural difference with African Americans, just as you suggest is the case for those who apply the label to Jews (you suggest this in post 67)
September 27, 2007 7:46 PM

jacksondyer said:

Cultural politics isn't just about African-Americans. Re-read the definition: ""The laden phrase "identity politics" has come to signify a wide range of political activity and theorizing founded in the shared experiences of injustice of members of certain social groups. Rather than organizing solely around ideology or party affiliation, identity politics typically concerns the liberation of a specific constituency marginalized within its larger context. Members of that constituency assert or reclaim ways of understanding their distinctiveness that challenge dominant oppressive characterizations, with the goal of greater self-determination." It could apply to any minority group that sees itself as oppressed and sets out to reclaim "ways of understanding their distinctiveness that challenge dominant oppressive characterizations, with the goal of greater self-determination." Identity politics often leads to minority claiming certain privileges through the legal system. The key is that groups who practice identity politics challenge what they consider an oppressive majority culture. African Americans belong to only one such group. Others would be Hispanic, Women, Gays, Native Americans, etc. Jews see themselves as a minority culture but not as an oppressed minority culture. In fact they are often seen by people like Sharpton, et al as being part of the oppressive majority or white culture. This has been one source of tension between Jews and Blacks. In any case Marty does not engage in identity politics.
September 27, 2007 8:47 PM

ndmackenzie said:

In denying that Martin Peretz practices identity politics, jacksondyer writes:
The key is that groups who practice identity politics challenge what they consider an oppressive majority culture.

Presumably, jacksondyer believes that Jews, unlike African Americans, can not practice identity politics because they are not subject to an "oppressive majority culture."

Eric Alterman addressed this in his blog entry that I quoted earlier (post #29):

the idea that it is difficult to assert one's Jewishness at Columbia University in the city of New York is among the most absurd notions to be found anywhere in American political discourse -- but it is a given in the Sun, the New York Post, Commentary, Marty Peretz's blog

As Eric Alterman points out, Martin Peretz and his cronies believe that Jews suffer under an "oppressive majority culture" regardless of the contrary evidence.

September 27, 2007 9:12 PM

mrcookie1 said:

for a brief check in between commitments... jackson, it seems to this reader that The Spine is, if anything, one long and predictive rant against what the author perceives as an "oppressive culture". He is constantly pointing out how conservative, pro Israel American Jews, pro war hawks, and most important, Jews who disagree with him, in politics, on blogs, in newspapers, at Ivory Towers, are all trying to screw the righteous, the brave men and women... who agree with Marty. He, like almost all conservative republics, completely sees himself as being oppressed and disrespected. This defines the frickin' Spine...without this, The Spine would not exist. Marty sees oppressors everywhere and anywhere... Even a casual reader of the Spine would pick up this rather distinguishing motif...
September 27, 2007 10:02 PM

mrcookie1 said:

September 27, 2007 10:04 PM

mrcookie1 said:

September 27, 2007 10:04 PM

mrcookie1 said:

September 27, 2007 10:04 PM

mrcookie1 said:

trying to pack and post is beyond me. How do women do it? let me try this again.. He is constantly pointing out how conservative, pro Israel American Jews, pro war hawks, and people like him in general. are getting the shaft. Most important, Jews who disagree with him, in politics, on blogs, in newspapers, at Ivory Towers, are all trying to screw the righteous, the brave men and women... who agree with marty... wow, I am done. This has been a long day and night. Ta ta....
September 27, 2007 10:07 PM

jacksondyer said:

Did you forget to take you meds, Cookie? The fact that you and mackenzie see eye to eye on Peretz should worry you!
September 27, 2007 10:09 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Marty sees oppressors everywhere and anywhere..." Cookie You just don't understand NY humor, Cookie
September 27, 2007 10:12 PM

jacksondyer said:

none of what you say, even if true, makes him a believer much less a practitioner of "identity politics." In any case you are not the most alert reader of Marty's posts, Cookie. Go take a vacation, will you. Go to Alaska or Tierra del Fuego to cool off for a few weeks.
September 27, 2007 10:15 PM

SMacEachern2 said:

Right. Peretz has found another white woman who can be relied upon to keep the kaffirs in line... because, Gawd, they can't be trusted to run Africa on their own. Helen Zille is a fine person, but with friends like Martin Peretz, who needs enemies?
September 27, 2007 10:51 PM

jacksondyer said:

"Helen Zille is a fine person, but with friends like Martin Peretz, who needs enemies?" So let me get this straight, Mac, Zille is beyond the pale because Marty Peretz likes her politics. Is that right? If that's the case then I hope he endorses your next tenure appointment since in that case you are bound to reject yourself.
September 28, 2007 12:39 AM

mrcookie1 said:

a vacation sounds wonderful. That is a great suggestion, though, right now, totally impractical. jackson, I sense that you just flat out refuse to entertain any suggestion that Peretz is a practioneer of identity politics, because...well...you say so. That is your right and prerogative I grant you. And given the unique culture of this padded wall fun house called the Spine, it ranks right up there with "Bollinger is a moron", "court Jew", and "poor little jewish girl" as an effective dialectic devise. But, as you have read, and from others, not just me, identity politics is arguably exactly what Peretz practices, I would suggest on a quotidian and polished scale. You can say, "No, I say he doesn't" and I can accept that as your response, but it doesn't make it so. Also, I detect, underneath that stunning declarative riposte, is a hint of incredulity that ANYONE would dare suggest that Peretz, a white man and a Jew, could even be compared to those black and brown ruffians who resort to "identity" for their pov. I am here to tell you that, in my opinion, this is exactly what he does...and to a large extent, the hard right wing of the GOP does this too.... identity politics is not strictly a person of color phenomena...
September 28, 2007 9:43 AM

SMacEachern2 said:

"Zille is beyond the pale because Marty Peretz likes her politics?" Nope - as I said, she's a fine person irrespective of Martin Peretz's opinions of her. She's being alarmist in this case, but then again, that's what politicians do. Peretz doesn't approve of many African politicians. No race involved in that, oh no sir, never race, just an assumption that any country governed by Africans is probably going to become Zimbabwe under Mugabe. The exception is Meles Zenawi in Ethiopia: Peretz likes him because he invaded Somalia.
September 28, 2007 12:29 PM

ndmackenzie said:

And so once again on The Spine we have a long thread dominated by the thoughts of jacksondyer the sychophant. This self-seeking servile flatterer will not permit a single negative phrase against his master without a flood of responses denying the obvious truth. jacksondyer can deceive himself as much as he wants but the reality clear to everyone else is that Martin Peretz practices identity politics - indeed it appears to be pretty much his life cause. And because the truth is so obvious jacksondyer must resort to spamming the comments with disinformation and mendacity in the hope of obfuscating reality.

But being a sychophant is more than just providing self-serving flattery it is also about being a parasite - and jacksondyer is a parasite. What else can he be when he pumps out so many comments on The Spine. On this thread alone jacksondyer has made 40 comments out of the current 90. This is not atypical - on any long thread on The Spine jacksondyer will make typically about one third of the comments. And just as the parasite can not live without the host so there would be nothing left to jacksondyer without The Spine. There is no room on The Plank for his brand of mendacious spamming. Perhaps he could move to MiniMe - but everyone there is so attuned to the lunacy of the host they would have little regard for the lunacy of the parasite.

I noticed that jacksondyer told MrCookie1 to take a vacation. It is time jacksondyer followed his own advice and took a vacation from The Spine to start his own blog. Then all of us at TNR would be spared the self-seeking servile flattery of his spamming commentary and the mendacity that goes with it. Maybe TNR could organize a contest for the best name for his blog. I vote for wackojacko.

September 28, 2007 1:05 PM

jacksondyer said:

Another double Mac Attack! I don't read nazi ndmackenzie so she can stop addressing anything to me. "Peretz doesn't approve of many African politicians." MacEachern, Mackick this around: Since you don't know how many African polticians Peretz approves of you comment is another deranged attack. Your posts have been pathetic. You accuse Peretz of racism and then deny it. Here is what you said: "Right. Peretz has found another white woman who can be relied upon to keep the kaffirs in line... because, Gawd, they can't be trusted to run Africa on their own." The you have the chutzpah to say: "No race involved in that, oh no sir, never race, just an assumption that any country governed by Africans is probably going to become Zimbabwe under Mugabe. The exception is Meles Zenawi in Ethiopia: Peretz likes him because he invaded Somalia." Yea, right no race involved. You are more dishonest than David Thomson.
September 28, 2007 3:05 PM

jacksondyer said:

"jackson, I sense that you just flat out refuse to entertain any suggestion that Peretz is a practioneer of identity politics, because...well...you say so" And you just "flat out refuse to entertain any suggestion that Peretz is" NOT a practitioner of IP because... well ... you say so. So far what I see is that you are in the grip of another episode of Peretz derangement syndrome. Try arguing your case with facts and logic and I will respond.
September 28, 2007 3:37 PM

SMacEachern2 said:

"Yea, right no race involved." Oh, certainly race is involved. However, I'm not responsible for that - Martin Peretz is. Find for me a case where Peretz has _not_ spoken about a black African leader patronisingly - except Meles Zenawi, in leading Christian Ethiopia to war against Muslim Somalia.
September 28, 2007 4:35 PM

jacksondyer said:

"except, except, except..." what a dumb argument! "Find for me a case where Peretz has _not_ spoken about a black African leader patronisingly - except Meles Zenawi, in leading Christian Ethiopia to war against Muslim Somalia." How many times has Peretz spoken of African leaders? Does Mugabe or the current asshole who runs South Africa and has made the AIDS situation there much worse deserve respect? Give me a break.
September 28, 2007 4:40 PM

jacksondyer said:

if you are still reading this there will be demonstrations against the Iranian government held in Europe. Your organization whould join them on behalf of the Bahai people being persecuted there. Here is a link to a web site where you can get more info: Demonstrate Against the Islamic Republic of Iran scroll down the web page till you fing the appropriate entry. Good Luck.
September 28, 2007 4:46 PM

SMacEachern2 said:

Let's see... Thabo Mbeki (you should at least get the name right), Desmond Tutu, Kofi Annan, Nelson Mandela, Olusegun Obasanjo (as the leader of Nigeria)... Try to find a time that Peretz _hasn't_ spoken of an African leader - or of the continent itself - without a sneer.
September 29, 2007 2:26 PM

sleepyavl said:

May you Peretz-bashers experience Stanislavski. I don't likePeretz, but he's right on this one. Some of you regulars are batshit crazy. You have as much level-headed reasoning when it comes to anything Peretz says as a mad cow.
October 2, 2007 4:41 AM

sleepyavl said:

"Let's see... Thabo Mbeki (you should at least get the name right), Desmond Tutu, Kofi Annan, Nelson Mandela, Olusegun Obasanjo (as the leader of Nigeria)..." Is THAT who you root for? Why forget Mugabe?
October 2, 2007 4:43 AM

The Spine said:

OK, Lee Bollinger is not a fool. He is not what Lenin called a "useful idiot." Which leaves

May 1, 2008 4:02 PM

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