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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
18.12.2008
Who's Afraid of Pastor Rick?

Matt Yglesias, writing about Obama's decision to have Rick Warren deliver the invocation at the inauguration, makes an odd analogy:

If Ahmadenijad is defeated at the next election by a candidate promising to take Iran on a different, more constructive path in international relations a lot of people will be excited by that. If said candidate follows up his electoral victory by elevating a cleric who’s well-known for his high-profile endorsement of assassinations, people will be upset about that. And rightly so.

Of course, a cleric who's elevated in Iran presumably enjoys a lot more influence and power than a pastor who gives an inaugural benediction in the United States. I understand the disappointment people are feeling over Obama's selection of Warren. I share it. At the same time, it's worth remembering that this is a one-off for Warren. He gives his benediction, he goes back to Saddleback. He's not going to be staying around Washington, heading up an agency or attending cabinet meetings.

Warren's pick is symbolic, which is why, as Andrew writes:

[I]t seems important to me that Obama at some point offer gay couples and gay servicemembers something a little better than symbolism in the next four years. Like: a federal civil unions bill and the end to the military ban.

Voicing disappointment with Warren's pick is one way of putting pressure on Obama to do just that. But it's worth remembering that Obama's invitation to Warren could also offer Obama some political cover to pursue these goals.

Update: Jasmine Beach-Ferrara has some smart thoughts about what Warren's pick might mean for HIV/AIDS policy:

While it is right for the LGBT community to register its outrage and hurt, we must also act quickly to adapt to a new political climate: We are no longer living in the age of either single issue or identity politics. The LGBT community needs to develop a clear-sighted 8-year strategy for the pieces of legislation we want to get passed within two Obama terms, and this legislative agenda must extend beyond LGBT civil rights. It should, for example, include legislation related to HIV/AIDS funding both domestically and globally.

LGBT people also care about global poverty and the AIDS pandemic (which is both a global and domestic issue). We cannot, and should not, absent ourselves from the table of communities coming together around these shared concerns. The LGBT community has long years of experience working around HIV/AIDS and the opportunity to share this knowledge and these skills with a global community. If Rick Warren is serious about addressing the HIV/AIDS crisis then he needs to be working with LGBT people, and he needs to approach the disease from a holistic framework that sees the virus for what it is: a pandemic that affects all identities. 

--Jason Zengerle

Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:23 AM with 9 comment(s)

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iambiguous said:

This is the sort of speculation we are redued to because we don't have access to the motivation and the intention of the main players.

And even more problematic they don't necessarily have access to the motivation and intention of each other.

We all basically react to things people say and do on the surface. And the relationship between that and the deeper layers is ever shifting and changing.

So it is not surprising when we fail to understand things as they are said to be by others who are more or less in the same boat that we are.

george walton

December 18, 2008 12:10 PM

iambiguous said:

Also:

At this point, I don't believe that Rick Warren [and his flock] are dangerous. They are analogous to the Mensheviks in revolutionary Russia when compared Bolsheviks who rallied around the bonfires clamoring for "the dictatorship of the proletariat!!"

Warren's people are not deeply anchored to the sort of right wing revanchist movement that could truly become very, very dangerous in these precarious times. Even Warren's support for Proposition 8 will not be taken up by his Christian partisans in the manner in which truly reactionary evangelicals... those who stand fully, rabidly behind the right wing political extremists...will stomp on anyone who gets in their way if given the opportunity to root out homosexuals, abortion rights and stem cell reseach advocates, and all those who embrace a strong separation between church and state.

In fact, I don't think enough people really have any idea how close we might actually be to crowds of angry citizens marching down the streets if this economy really starts to fall apart at the seams. Scapegoating will become the first [and perhaps only] language to be heard on Fox News and Lou Dobbs and Talk Radio. And I think Barack Obama is thinking about that now too.

The Warren decision is a way to make that less likely, perhaps.

In any event, in my view, there is no way that folks on the left end of the political spectrum would rather be confronting Christians whipped up by Palin, Dobson, Beck and Coulter than folks who follow Warren into Saddlebag.

Warren [up to a point] can be reasoned with. And so can most of the people who rally around him. He is not going to be calling for the quarantine of gays or demanding that women who have abortions and those who perform them be tried for first degree murder. And, as you note, in regards to issues like poverty [all over the world...not just here] and global warming he will prove invaluable if he can shift people over to a more moderate and reasoned discussion and debate about these issues.  

For me, keeping a crucial "eye on the prize" means weighing every political tactic against what I seriously believe could become an all out battle for control of the nation's social, political, economic and cultural agenda. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I do believe that if Obama and his economic team are not able to prevent a full-blown deflationary spiral in the economy, Americans are going to start seeing things they never ever thought they would.

Back in the 1980s, some on the left thought that Ronald Reagan [especially after Ollie North and the Iran/contra scandal broke] would usher in what they called "friendly fascism".

It never happened. And it never happened because the economy began a 25+ year string of booms and relatively mild busts. Now, however, with the nation still split down the middle of that staunchly partisan divide, no one knows what is going to happen next. But if it all does tumble go over the cliff and into that political and economic abyss, the fascism unleashed will likely be anything but friendly.

george walton

December 18, 2008 12:31 PM

drdannyu said:

I am not happy about this by any stretch, but I accept it as a coalition-building measure.  Since I think there is roughly the same chance of federally-recognized gay marriage during the Obama administration as of my developing the ability to move objects in space with the power of my mind (and I think that would be the case with anyone in the White House), I am not terribly grieved.  I think Ambinder had it right when he said this was not handled well politically, but the symbolism is OK.  

I will be happy with civil unions, which Warren (from what I understand) supports.  So I'll live.

December 18, 2008 1:04 PM

sportdoc62 said:

It seems to me that Obama is doing exactly, and perhaps too precisely or naively, what he said he would do, which is attempt to pull people together from diverse backgrounds and urge them to work out their differences and find their commonalities (I believe this is also known as the "Keep your friends close..." approach).  I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Obama actually wants to get some things done and he wants to use the political process to do them, as opposed to getting elected and turning the executive branch into a bunker that uses largely fabricated national security concerns as an endless source of self justification.

Like they did with the Clintons, parts of the left in the US thought Obama would wink and run in the center and then veer sharply left once elected, and now they find themselves dissappointed  (Andrew Sullivan is, naturally, his own, unique case).  Don't get me wrong, Rick Warren, whose church and hateful followers live a few miles from me, needs to be confronted full force.  Warren puts a friendly face on some of the most venal and hateful public politics alive in this country.  I am enjoying the modicum of shadenfraude I get from that fact that many of his followers have been supremely self satisfied orange county nuveau riche who are now losing their jobs and the home equity they borrowed against to buy cars, boats and jewelry (and who will be helped not one iota by Warren's idiotic books).  But why not give his bigoted ideas some of the national scrutiny they deserve by making him a figure outside the cozy world of the mega church?

I recall when former LA Dodger GM Al Campanis went on Ted Koppel's Nightline and repeated, across two commercial breaks, some of the most unselfconscious and public racism we have heard in the modern era--all this on the 40th anniversary of the integration of baseball.  Campanis was forced to resign and Major League Baseball appointed Harry Edwards to look into issues of race in the league.  The first person Edwards thanked for bringing attention to the issue was Al Campanis.  Edwards then hired Campanis to join him in his efforts to recruit blacks into middle and upper management in baseball.

December 18, 2008 2:28 PM

iambiguous said:

dylanposer writes:

george,

That's so very thoughtful. It doesn't help.

George responds:

That is what folks like Rick Warren [and far more dangerous replications] have been counting on for centuries. Few secular extrapolations of religous balms are nearly as soothing and comforting.

And that is because they reject immortality and salvation and devine justice.

So Hitchens and Dawkins and Harris et al keep pissing in the wind for nought. Their own disillusioned narratives are embraced by the few brave "free thinkers", but it is but a dent in the massive superstructure of faith and adulation.

george walton

December 18, 2008 4:51 PM

iambiguous said:

Conflicting moral values cannot be resolved such that someone strings a bunch of words together about homosexuality, everyone reads them and then they all think in unison, "Yes, of course, that is the most reasonable, humane and ethical way to live together sexually!!"

By its very nature, human sexuality is lodged deep down inside the reptilian brain. It surges back and forth on waves of passionaite emotional and psychological reactions.

This can't be tamed by words like "God" "sin" "moral" or "immoral". Instead, we have to recognize the futility of trying and accept the need for dialogue, tolerance, concessions, negotiation, arbitration, diplomacy. But most people reject this because it just feels better to embrace one point of view, call it the truth and reject all others. Democracy is messy  and turbulant and hard. That's why most people prefer Us versus Them. It's so clean and certain and neat and noble.

What religion generally does is go around and around to tautological circles regarding "facts". Most denominations have a Scripture. And the Scripture must be true because it is the word of God. And if it were not the word of God then it would not be in the Scripture. This is all about the emotional and psychological yearning for both equillibrium and equanimity in our lives. And a thousand NYT bestsellers by Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris won't change that. God is not a syllogism. God is truth, justice and immortality. However ludicrous this all plays out historically when denominations collide.

george walton

December 18, 2008 7:48 PM

ChanRobt said:

To repeat:

Uh, guys, in this blizzard of words over three different threads, has anybody noticed:  

Rev. Warren opposes gay marriage.  

President-Elect Obama opposes gay marriage.  (As does every prominent Democrat who ran for president.)

So, if anybody has a bitch, it's with Obama and his choice of Warren is not inconsistent with his position on this issue.

December 19, 2008 10:11 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

I agree Channy - my bitch IS with Obama.  I accepted, quite grudgingly, Obama's tired position on sacrificing the civil rights of a minority to get elected.  So be it.  What else is new?  Since when haven't Democrats done that?

My problem is the gratuitous nature of this act - a bigot blessing the first black President is beyond the paIe hurtful, for what?  Prop 8 passed the same day Obama was elected, could he possibly not know how painful that was? If so, that's scary.

I don't see how he could be this borderline cruel. I feel this way because LGBT folks STARTED the Obama fire and worked the hardest of anyone for him from the very beginning.  I walked the streets pounding on doors in south Philly with a group of gay men with shirts on that said "LGBT for Obama." Can any other consituency say they did that?  And took the kind risks for Obama that these guys  - and hundreds, perhaps thousands of others across the country did?  (South Philly is were Rocky was from).

Were evangelical brain donors there in the streets from the beginning? Please!  Screw the optics, when in God's name will we stop licking the boots of people who hate us?  Ever?  Even after this win?  

So OK, I'll take on the role of the resident TNR kossack on this, I suppose I always have. I'd like to march in the streets over this and I've canceled my trip down to the swearing in.  You hurt my friends and family, you hurt me. God bless your tolerance drdannyu.

December 19, 2008 12:36 PM

iambiguous said:

ChanRobt writes

:

To repeat:

Uh, guys, in this blizzard of words over three different threads, has anybody noticed:  

Rev. Warren opposes gay marriage.  

President-Elect Obama opposes gay marriage.  (As does every prominent Democrat who ran for president.)

So, if anybody has a bitch, it's with Obama and his choice of Warren is not inconsistent with his position on this issue.

George responds:

This is the sort of "analysis" that takes almost everything politicians say [in almost every conceivable political context] literally.

It is as though no one should bother to learn to read between the lines on the campaign trail because there is no distinction to be made between saying what it takes to get elected and doing what it takes to run the government.

In America, especially, appealing to the lowest common denominator voter [in all but the safest sesats], is akin to breathing....if you want to actually WIN the election.

You say all sorts of things you kinda believe is true and promise to push through all sorts of policies you kinda believe you can.

What makes this particularly silly, of course, is the manner in which folks immediately point out inconsistencies in the opposition's camp while rationalizing the very same inconsistencies in their own.

To wit:

Real people interacting in real time are intertwined in real circumstantial contexts. To imagine all of these complex and conflicting perceptions of reality can be reduced to the inflexible bromides of political parties or religious denominations is to set yourself up for the sort of "my way or the highway" mentality that has been reduced, in turn, to the red state/blue state mentality of all the self-righteous bloviators.

Can Obama actually dismantle these sophomoric narratives?  Does he even want ot? I don't know. And neither do you. I figure that it might be wiser perhaps to wait until he is actually inaugurated and pursuing actual policy in the Oval Office.

And even then none of what unfolds will be reducible to the cliches of all the True Believers.

george walton

December 19, 2008 4:14 PM