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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
02.12.2008
Why Susan Rice Won't Be Calling John Bolton

At the Chicago rollout yesterday of president-elect Barack Obama's national security team, between the surprising continuity of keeping Robert Gates as defense secretary and nominating Hillary Clinton to head the State department--not to mention the onstage repetition of bromides like "bipartisanship" and "pragmatism"--it was easy to forget what a seismic change Susan Rice will bring as ambassador to the United Nations. It's not just that, as Matt Yglesias points out, Rice will assume a "cabinet-rank" position as UN ambassador that gives her more sway than perhaps even Bush UN ambassador John Bolton, whose indifference to his own jurisdiction was legendary. It's that she will bring an entirely different philosophy of global interaction to the UN.

To see how, look no further than just a flight of stairs above the Obama presser at the Chicago Hilton, where the conservative Heritage Foundation also held a conference on national security issues. The suddenly-fringe gathering offered more than a visual clash with Obama's new cabinet--it displayed precisely the Bush-era contempt for international institutions that Rice, with Obama's blessing, promised yesterday to reverse.

Heritage fellows advocated at length for massive weapons stockpiling as well as exploration of missile defense strategies--valid thought exercises, though shot through with digs at the domestic spending initiatives that Obama has promised. "They will reduce our defense spending for initiatives like 'universal health care,'" analyst MacKenzie Eaglen scoffed, to a few boos. And when approached after the event by a questioner worried that the U.S. might be acting as "the world's policeman," senior fellow Peter Brookes lit into the UN:

Now, the UN is good at lots of things, like handing out food and giving kids shots. [Laughter] You know, I'm not one to denigrate those things. What--they eradicated what, yellow fever in Africa by giving kids shots, that's great. But we have to be a lot smarter about realizing its limitations, and that's militarily. When you call in the UN you get a bunch of guys in uniforms standing around without guns, or they can't use them unless it's to defend themselves. I don't believe in global federalism; I also don't like the idea of the U.S. as the world's policeman. But the UN is ineffective, period, at defense of any kind. So we need to look somewhere else.

This supposed military impotence is one argument that is used by conservatives and well-meaning liberals to call for either the dissolution of the UN or its comprehensive reform. Naturally, there are inefficiencies to fight both within and without a sprawling international body like the UN. But I spoke with Susan Rice later, elsewhere in the Hilton. We chatted about Africa policy and World AIDS Day, on which both conferences took place. (Obama statement here.) I mentioned some of Brooke's comments to her, which she took in stride, with a sort of "guess who's in charge now" bemusement. Though she declined to speak on the record about UN policy, she again emphasized that she would take a radically different approach to the position, and mentioned wanting to call up former holders of the position for advice--with one notable exception: John Bolton. That's not surprising--she's on the record as feeling exactly the opposite way as Bolton and the Heritage folks. From a 2007 article she penned for UN Dispatch:

When Americans see televised images of bone-thin African or Asian kids with distended bellies, what do we think? We think of helping. For all the right reasons, our humanitarian instincts tend to take over. But when we look at UNICEF footage or a Save the Children solicitation, does it also occur to us that we are seeing a symptom of a threat that could destroy our way of life? Rarely ...

Efforts to illuminate the complex relationship between poverty and insecurity may be unwelcome to those who want assurance that global poverty and U.S. national security are unrelated. Yet, we ignore or obscure the implications of global poverty for global security at our peril.

--Dayo Olopade

Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:50 PM with 22 comment(s)

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iambiguous said:

I'll tell you what worries me most about the pressure the Heritage Foundation, John Bolton and neoconservatives of his ilk will use to ramp up a jingoistic agenda for Barack Obama's foreign policy team.  

Consider this scenario:

As Joe Biden predicted, Russia [among others] will want to test the Obama administration's reaction to something they do. So, maybe Putin will try to reintegrate Georgia or the Ukraine back into a new model of the USSR. After all, from Putin's perspective Georgia and the Ukraine are squarely rooted in what he encompasses as Russia's near-abroad national security interests.

What does Obama do?

What will he do when the neoconservatives start a campaign demanding that America send armed forces into Georgia to beat back the Russians? What happens if Russia ups the ante until the world is once again eyeball to eyeball with another Cuban missile crisis?

If there are people who don't think this a plausable scenario, they haven't been following the testosterone fueled rhetortic of the most dogmatic and doctrinaire wing of the Republican party.

Most of these flame throwers are of course chickenhawks. But these types are always the most dangerous because they have little or no real understanding of the horrors of war.

Now, I'm not naive enough to suppose we should let the Putins of the world do as they wish. Of course, if the government in Moscow starts to take on the appearence of a new fascist type aggressor, then we may have no choice but to stop them. If, say, they invaded France or Italy or Germany or England....what could we do but try to stop them?

But taking back Georgia and the Ukraine......is that motivation enough to trigger a nuclear holocaust?

george walton

December 2, 2008 4:52 PM

tec619 said:

I think on every issue, large and small, Susan Rice should seek John Bolton's counsel. She should then do the opposite of whatever he advises. To keep the ruse going, Susan should send Bolton a handwritten thank you note and mildly complain that Obama or some White House or State Dept. underling ordered her to reject his advice.

If Rice follows my advice, her term as UN Ambassador should be judged a spectacular success.

December 2, 2008 5:02 PM

rozenson said:

Sounds like Mr. Walton wants to be a blogger, too!

December 2, 2008 5:14 PM

tec619 said:

george walton said:

" What will he do when the neoconservatives start a campaign demanding that America send armed forces into Georgia to beat back the Russians? What happens if Russia ups the ante until the world is once again eyeball to eyeball with another Cuban missile crisis?"

First, Obama should insist DoD set up a special draft-dodger/combat-avoider/non-serving defense expert battalion and insisit the manginas, er, neocons volunteer to serve in it.  Then, Obama should announce that he will requst Congress reinstate the draft, but first, reduce the deferment opportunities.

of course, the neocons will call Obama's tactics a diversion from the real problem. But those tactics will 1) educate the public on the backgrounds and possibly true loyalties of the wussies who relish war; and 2) concentrate its mind on the wages of a muscular foreign policy. (Not that anything is wrong with muscle-flexing. But when it is an end in itself and advocated by people who've proven they won't swear an oath to provide for the martial defense of this country, that changes the complexion of the matter.)

December 2, 2008 5:19 PM

WoodyBombay said:

"But taking back Georgia and the Ukraine......is that motivation enough to trigger a nuclear holocaust?"

You should have been here when Russia and Georgia faced off, george -- some Plankers thought it would be worth it. We were all Georgians, then.

December 2, 2008 6:26 PM

jobeek2 said:

"This supposed military impotence is one argument that is used by conservatives .. to call for either the dissolution of the UN or its comprehensive reform."

The doublespeak in this argument has always annoyed me to no end. Conservatives will endlessly ridicule the UN for its impotence, furthering the notion that the UN should not be trusted to do anything because they just can't do the job. But at the same time, of course, they would passionately block any attempt to actually *give* the UN more power or authority.

That's the whole hypocritical modus operandi, and centrist Democrats have engaged in it plenty too  (here at TNR, for example). Basically: we'll stop you from acquiring any real teeth at all costs - and then argue that you're useless because you have no real teeth. Gah.

December 2, 2008 6:35 PM

jobeek2 said:

George Walton -- Count me in as someone who doesn't think Putin trying "to reintegrate the Ukraine back into a new model of the USSR" is a plausible scenario -- and it's got nothing to do with any wing of the Republican Party, doctrinaire or otherwise.

Seriously. I'm as suspicious of Putin's totalitarian, empire-minded gang as anyone, but prospects are bad enough as they are without spinning madcap scenarios. Russia will do what it can in its "near abroad" to undermine governments that are not friendly enough, and the smaller the country the more direct the interference will be. Georgia is not safe, and in Ukraine the dormant issue of the Crimea might be used to stir up trouble. But there's not going to be a new state union between Russia and Ukraine.

December 2, 2008 6:48 PM

iambiguous said:

rozenson writes:

Sounds like Mr. Walton wants to be a blogger, too!

George responds:

Not to worry. I only do this to pass the time while waiting for godot. Besides, to note how bloggers are a dime a dozen these days is, when adjusted for inflation, to note how there must be tens of thousands of them by now, right?

Each one grasping to get their own allotted fifteen minutes of fame.

Actually, though, there are two ways in which to interpret Warhol's observation.

The first [and I believe most common] is to speculate how there will be so many new media outlets in which to gain fame in the future that, sooner or later, in one way or another, we're all going stumble into one of them.

The second [and I believe most trenchant] is to suggest the attention span of most people will shrink in the future to the point where 15 minutes is all they are willing or able to allot to anyone...to anything.

george walton

December 2, 2008 7:04 PM

iambiguous said:

WoodyBombay writes:

"But taking back Georgia and the Ukraine......is that motivation enough to trigger a nuclear holocaust?"

You should have been here when Russia and Georgia faced off, george -- some Plankers thought it would be worth it. We were all Georgians, then.

George responds:

Look, the real world is sadly bursting at the seams with outrageous state policies. Should we demand that China announce to the world that Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation? Should the American government demand that American corporations pull out of China because the government denies its citizens political freedoms, uses prisoners as slave labor, and passes laws that restrict each family to one child....leading to a significant increase in the number of abortions while creating conditions where some will commit infanticide because their baby was a girl and not a boy?  

Should we give nations that practice the genital mutilation of females an ultimatum to stop or we are coming over to force them to?

Should we invade corrupt and despotic dictatorships....the ones that do not have oil....like Egypt because there are democratically inclined citizens who are brutally repressed, imprisoned, tortured and murdered?  

Should America insist that Saudi Arabia's theocratic monarchy stop enforcing draconian sharia laws against women....or risk losing us as a buyer of their oil?

What about the slaughter that goes on in Darfur? Would you be willing join a military unit, go over there, and fight to the death if necessary to change things?

And really, back in the 1960's, the US virtually surrounded the USSR with nuclear weapons. Then when the Soviets put a few in Cuba, America is absolutely outraged. The utter hypocrisy of American foreign policy then as now is nothing short of breathtaking.

But that still doesn't stop me from believing that in so many other ways America is among the most open and liberal of states....and one ot the greatest countries on the planet.

How do I reconcile that? I don't. And I don't because in a world awash in gray very few things can ever be bifurcated into black or white, good or bad, right or wrong. It always comes down to the existential; context from which you judge and evaluate things. And that never stops shifting and changing through time.

george walton

December 2, 2008 7:51 PM

iambiguous said:

Jobeek2 writes:

I'm as suspicious of Putin's totalitarian, empire-minded gang as anyone, but prospects are bad enough as they are without spinning madcap scenarios. Russia will do what it can in its "near abroad" to undermine governments that are not friendly enough, and the smaller the country the more direct the interference will be. Georgia is not safe, and in Ukraine the dormant issue of the Crimea might be used to stir up trouble. But there's not going to be a new state union between Russia and Ukraine.

George responds:

Yes, that is probably true, I agree.

In fact, the narrative regarding Russia over the past few years seemed to revolve around the assumption that even if it wanted to reinstall the USSR, it simply does not have the economic infrastructure to do so. And that was when oil was selling north of 140 dollars a barrel. Today it is selling for less than 50 dollars, I think. Russia therefore is all the more less likely now to be resurrecting Stalin.  

Still, with Putin anything is possible. This narcissistic megalomaniac has testosterone dripping from his teeth.

And there is of course this context [from wikipedia]:

"Russia possesses the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction in the world. Russia declared an arsenal of 40,000 tons of chemical weapons in 1997 and is said to have had around 6,681 nuclear weapons stockpiled in 2005, making its stockpile the largest in the world."

For now, thank God, John MCain is out of the picture as Dr. Strangelove in the White House. But who really knows how many General Jack Rippers and Buck Turgidsons there are lurking in the shadows, itching for the right provocation. Or, as Major T.K. "King:" Kong put it,  "Well, boys, I reckon this is it - nuclear combat toe to toe with the Roosskies."

george walton

December 2, 2008 8:43 PM

sleepyavl said:

Idiots can recognized by their fondness for quoting movies. That's how they prove their points.

December 2, 2008 10:54 PM

iambiguous said:

sleepy writes:

Idiots can recognized by their fondness for quoting movies. That's how they prove their points.

George responds:

This is only a personal observation, mind you, but I truly believe you are not nearly sleepy enough. Try channeling another post in your dreams.

gw

December 3, 2008 2:07 AM

miguknamja4 said:

Brookes talks about the UN's peacekeeping missions: Rice talks about Africa. These are two od many different UN missions. If Olopade can't complete a single argument, let's allow Brookes and Rice to argue without him.

December 3, 2008 6:15 AM

butchie b said:

tec, I see you're on about your usual nonsense.  Again, are the only people who can start/defend/support war those (like us) who have worn the uniform?  That can't be right, and you know it, so why do you keep on about it?  Or is it just unpopular wars, or ones you don't like?

There goes FDR, never mind BHO.

December 3, 2008 10:47 AM

tec619 said:

Butchie, first, I know everyone is entitled to his/her opinon. Nonethelss, we can and should judge wyh people hold certain opinions.

Second, why do you insist on ignoring the fact that the policy and opinion makers I refer to, not only support war, but are jingoists? That fact, I think, is the significant difference.

is  John (I didn't want to die in the rice paddies) Bolton know of one international problem for which martial action isn't the answer? What about Dick Cheney? Please.

You can continue to misrepresent my point, and ignore the fact that leaders should lead by example--at least some of the times. But my position is unshakable. In matters that can place others in mortal danger, it is imperative, in my opinion, that those who are quick to advocate war, aren't physical cowards. Draft-dodgers, combat avoiders and others who are sooo obssessed with national security should take the advantage of the ample opportunities to serve in uniform. The fact that they consciously avoided serving or neglected to do so (as you know, reserve and national guard positions are PART-TIME) is a gigantic window into their content-free character.

I'm sick of insecure, mangina, weenies, dictating diplomatic and security policy. it seems to me, that their attraction to tough guy stances is overcompensating for the fact that they are, insecure, mangina, weenies. They had their chances and they pissed themselves. Subsequent generations of young people should die for that?

And don't think I'm angry at you.  I'm not. The post just reads that way.

I hope you you enjoyed your Thanksgiving Day holiday.  And just to piss off morons, Billo O'Reilly and utah state senator Chris Buttars (see link below), I wish you and yours "Happy Holidays." :-D

deseretnews.com/.../1,5143,705267557,00.html

December 3, 2008 12:54 PM

butchie b said:

I know tec, and we're cool.  But what you seem to be saying is that as long as you're not a "jingoist" however defined, the fact that you did not serve is OK.  Obama did not, Hillary did not, ditto Susan Rice.  I suspect the next SecDef will not.  Actually, if you're younger than I am (54) you did not HAVE to serve, and most of our national elites did not, for reasons not that dissimilar to Bolton's and Cheney's.  That is, they looked down their noses at military service and military personnel.

With the passing from the political scene of the Vietnam generation, this will cease to be a problem, so we'll both have to find something else to natter on about.

As you know, I honor your service.  Happy Holidays!

Butch

December 3, 2008 2:01 PM

tec619 said:

Butchie, please stop being a naif. You know what a jingoistist is. And the muscular foreign policy types who dodged the draft, or avoided potential combat by joinning the national guard or reserves when it was a safe option, or sang paens to Reagan, but some how forgot defense largely occurs in the armed forces (which is open to all--even gays join--what does that tell you?) are war mongers. They surely don't blanch at military action.

John bolton, for instance, never saw a treaty that should be negotiated or a dispute that shouldn't be addressed through martial action. But he didn't want to die in the rice paddies of Vietnam becaue (his words) Ted kennedy messed it up for him. Do you beleive that? You shouldn't because it's bullshit. That pussy never wanted to kill any commies for mommy.  Fuck him, Bioll Kristol, Dick Chemey and all the rest.

I am not naive. But a little fucking morality in our conduct of international relations isn't too much to ask.

The war-monger crowd want to bomb, bomb, bomb iran. First, whose kids are going to servie in that massive clustrer fuck? Second, as you well know butchie, the regime in Iran didn't materialize out of thin air. My country, and yours, set that ball in motion. How? By ovethrowing a democratically elected regime. So a little humility and tempering of attitudes isn't too much to ask for.

December 3, 2008 3:04 PM

tec619 said:

Another thing Butchie.. I hold the generation that so admired Reagan is to the Vietnam standards. If the empire was so evil, where the beef? (Read service?) I'm not letting any of those assholes of the hook. Listening Peter Beinart and Joe Scarborough? (Didn't Beinart's didn't have to serve admission sicken you? I knew that reason informed his opinion. Why it's not considered contemptible, especially by a vet, is beyond me.)

December 3, 2008 3:08 PM

butchie b said:

As you know, I hold no particular brief for Bolton, etc.  But all the guys you rail against did not go to Vietnam.  Nor did Clinton, as you know.  Once that generation passes, NOBODY (almost) in our national elites served in uniform, warmonger or dove.  How many vets in Obama's Cabinet (Nat'l Security Advisor doesn't count)?  So far, I think it's zero - Gates may have served, I don't know.

BTW, I'm not sure that overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953 (by that warmonger Ike - but at least he served) led to President Nutjob of today.  Yes, we played a role, but there are other factors.

Bombing Iran is a bad idea, but the prospect of casualties is surpassingly small.  A 6-week air campaign would lose fewer than 10 pilots, I'd guess.

December 3, 2008 3:31 PM

tec619 said:

Butchie, why do you persist in pointing out liberals who didn't serve? According to conservative orthodoxy, libs are pinko, coward, traitor bastards.  I happily subscribe to that mode of thinking and merely hold them to the same standards.  The question that goes begggin is: Why the f--k didn't you (conservatives) serve. If those pussies want to throw stones, they should vacate their chiffon tents.

As for Ike, you know I don't believe him to be a warmonger. (But at least he served. That's the BIG difference. Did Wolfie, Fieth, Kristol or Cheney serve? Let me answer that: no.) Anyway, Ike went along with the overthrow against his better judgment. He shouldn't have caved into the Brits commie-behind-every-tree bullshit. See what it has wrought?  After carrying out those antiodemocratic acts, are we standing on the moral high ground? Oh no. It's above us. We slid down into the pit of iniquity.

The point is, motives are important. An accurate knowledge of history too.

December 3, 2008 4:33 PM

butchie b said:

Guess I'm not much of a conservative then, not believing that liberals are evil.  You still do not answer my point:  going forward, NONE of our elites will have served, with very few exceptions.  Lib or neocon, R or D.  I consider this to be a not so good thing, but I try not to impugn people's motives in the bargain.

As for moral high ground, it is rare in int'l relations for any country to claim it.  Ok, it may not have been our finest hour, but it led to today's rule by the mullahs?  We're that omnipotent? I think not.  the Shah turned his countrymen off as well.  Reality is complex, so I agree, an accurate knowledge of history is a good thing.

December 3, 2008 5:27 PM

tec619 said:

In future fewer of our elites will have served. I hope that situation never occurs. However, since liberals are supposed to wussies, who cares it they served?  (I'm being partly facetious.) But conservatives? Well, that's an another matter altogether.  

December 3, 2008 5:57 PM