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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
21.10.2008
Are We a Conservative Country?

Not for the first time--and, I'm sure, not for the last--Paul Krugman wrote what I was thinking this morning:

Four years ago George W. Bush narrowly won the presidential election, and Republicans achieved a 30-seat majority in the House and a 10-seat majority in the Senate. Immediately there was a vast chorus from the commentariat, proclaiming the death of liberalism; America, everyone said, was a conservative nation. I have a whole shelf of books with titles like Building Red America and One-Party Nation.

Maybe the current polls are all wrong. But at the moment they point to an Obama victory by a margin much larger than Bush’s in 2004, plus a Democratic majority of 50 or more in the House and something like 14 in the Senate.

So you know what the morning-after commentary will say--in fact, it’s already started. Yes: it will say that America is, um, a conservative nation.

To be fair, I would concede that America's strong individulaistic streak makes the country inhospitable to government activism, at least relative to Western Europe. But that doesn't mean liberalism can't still thrive here, under the right conditions. We did, after all, pass the New Deal and the Great Society. And today we still cherish the programs those outbursts of liberalism produced.*
 
The question, going forward, is whether this election will lead to another such outburst. Nobody takes the outcome for granted; Barack Obama could still lose. But it seems increasingly likely he'll win. If the margin is large enough, and he brings along enough Democrats in Congress, he'd have the opportunity to pass an ambitious agenda.
 
At that point, critics will likely make two arguments against such ambition. One will be based on resources: There isn't enough money to fund all of Obama's programs, they'll say. I think that's mostly wrong, for reasons I stated previously.
 
The other argument, I suspect, will be about Obama's mandate--or lack thereof. Critics will say the voters backed Obama because of personality and style, not the issues. In other words, the critics will argue, the public didn't really back a liberal agenda.
 
Personality and leadership style always figure prominently in the voters' minds, so the claim will surely have some merit. But it's worth keeping in mind that in each of the three debates, moderators asked Obama to list his top domestic policy priorities as president. He responded the same way each time: (1) Attend to the economy, starting with some kind of stimulus program if (as seems likely) conditions still warrant it (2) Promote energy independence (3) Make health care affordable for everybody.
 
That's some pretty clear signalling, particluarly since he's said more or less the same thing in his speeches. And while I doubt most voters can recite chapter and verse of his specific policy proposals, polls suggest that--overall--they support his approaches.
 
There will be a lot more to say on this subject after the election, if indeed Obama wins. But with skepticism about Obama's agenda already circulating, some of it has to be said now.
 
*Update: Just to be clear, I'm referring here primarily to the big-ticket iniatives, like Medicare and Social Security. The record on smaller initiatives, particularly those that grew out of the War on Poverty, is more mixed. See also Steve Benen and Paul Waldman, plus Matthew Yglesias with an objection to my take. 
 
--Jonathan Cohn

Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:51 PM with 30 comment(s)

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jacobt1 said:

AMERICA CANNOT AFFORD CORRUPT WELFARE PROGRAMS LIKE FANNY MAY & THE OBAMA TAX PLAN.

-8 YEARS OF AN OBAMA-PELOSI-ACORN ADMINISTRATION WOULD GIVE AMERICA:

-8 YEARS OF SPREAD-THE-WEALTH SOCIALISM,

-8 YEARS OF CHICAGO-STYLE CORRUPTION, &

-8 YEARS OF UNITED NATIONS-STYLE FOREIGN POLCY

IT WOULD GIVE US A GOVERNMENT THAT IS TOO STRONG AT HOME AND TOO WEAK ABROAD. IT WOULD BE TOO EXPENSIVE & FAR TOO DANGEROUS.

www.commentarymagazine.com/.../39471

October 21, 2008 2:55 PM

mattnewman said:

The GOP attacks on Obama as a dangerous liberal and even socialist (e.g., commenter above) may actually give Obama more latitude as president. After all, it's going to be harder for the GOP to claim after the election that people voted for a centrist.

October 21, 2008 3:13 PM

drozenson said:

jacobtl, the shift key on your keyboard is stuck.  You should look into that-- it makes your post look like the ravings of lunatic.

October 21, 2008 3:21 PM

boneill said:

"OBAMA-PELOSI-ACORN ADMINISTRATION" is fucking hilarious.  Really?  ACORN?

October 21, 2008 3:29 PM

jfelliott said:

It used to be that even most American conservatives were clasically liberal.  That is to say, the legitimacy of the liberalism of our Founders was never in question, nor its status as the basis for the civic virtues we lived by -- some better than others -- for most of this nation's lifespan.  I would say that the "problem," as it were, with American politics is that both sides have moved to more "European" models.  That is, the "left" begins to emulate the thinking and tactics of European leftism, with its move away from liberalism to socialism.  And the "right" has, at the same time, proceeded in a more autocratic, aristocratic bent common to European conservatism.

If America still has a "center" that showcases a majority (or even a median!) of its citizens, it will still be clasically liberal.  That, after all, is where our national tradition leads us.  History shows that liberalism, in America, wins out every time.  It just has to be patient.

Oh, and someone go scoop jacobt's brains of the floor; I think an aneurysm caused his head to burst.

October 21, 2008 3:33 PM

jfelliott said:

"-8 YEARS OF SPREAD-THE-WEALTH SOCIALISM,"

Boy, I hope so.

October 21, 2008 3:34 PM

boneill said:

See, droz, I don't know- jacob is cutting and pasting.  Is Commentary yelling?

October 21, 2008 3:42 PM

ndmackenzie said:

jacobt1 was actually quoting, as exhumed and capitalized in Commentary, the comments of a member of "Democrats for McCain." I would have thought even the name "Democrats for McCain" would have been enough to warn away Abe Greenwald from quoting an obvious nutter.

October 21, 2008 3:54 PM

GSpinks said:

"We did, after all, pass the New Deal and the Great Society."

These occurred only in response to dire circumstances, as I recall. In fact, it seems to my recollection, that many of the most liberal programs and anything else resembling government intervention, have come about only in response to existential circumstances of the day: one such instance, with modern day relevance, is Glass-Steagall. As I recall, labor/safety laws and unions have similar origiins.

It seems to me that America is actually tripartite, small government types, government activist types, and moderates, with the first two being more or less partisan and voting party lines, and the third being the deciding factor. Thus, it is not so much that America is conservative as that the "deciders" are moderate, with a motto of "better safe than sorry", eschewing change for change's sake or activism for activism's sake, but willing to accept change and activism if there is a perceived need.

As for the pundits, I expect nothing less than for them to continue fabricating narratives that justify their ideology, regardless of unfavorable or contradictory existential realities. To wit, McCain and company are already trying to argue that Democrats have controlled Congress for two years and therefore everything wrong with Wall St. today is actually their fault, never mind the facts and existential realities which trace this whole problem back to Phil Graham's bill which was passed in '99 combined with the stupid business practices of the yokels that were running fanny and freddie during Bush's first term who jumped on the ponzi scheme now affectionately known as the sub-prime mortgage crisis. And I expect this brand of delusional revisionism to continue indefinitely.

October 21, 2008 4:01 PM

GSpinks said:

"AMERICA CANNOT AFFORD CORRUPT WELFARE PROGRAMS LIKE FANNY MAY & THE OBAMA TAX PLAN"

And we should trust the opinion of someone who can't be bothered to know how to spell Fannie Mae, why? And how does raking money in hand over fist on mortgages qualify as a "welfare program?

October 21, 2008 4:11 PM

Robert Powell said:

More nonsense from Cohn. "...under the right conditions" apparently means a total collapse of the world economic system and the rise of aggressive fascist dictatorships. Thanks, but no thanks.

GSpinks breaks it down pretty well--a minority of  "government activist types" outnumbered more than 2:1 by those who prefer small government in practically all circumstances,  and those who believe "better safe than sorry" where ambitious changes are contemplated. Sounds close enough to conservative for me.

October 21, 2008 5:03 PM

JEFF FREY said:

I would modify that, because there are a great number of Americans who are very selective small government types. In the abstract, they clearly favor small government and will consistently support that position in the abstract. However, most of these are quite comfortable with a military budget that outspends the rest of the world combined, and many are quite insistent that small government still needs to be sure it does X. X might be, react and help after natural disasters, or provide effective hurricane warnings, or build and maintain roads, etc. When you add up all the specific things they support, you get a pretty large government.

October 21, 2008 5:18 PM

AlanSP said:

RP,

Americans tend to be conservative in the abstract, but liberal on the specifics.  So when you ask people if they view themselves as conservative, liberal or moderate, conservatives generally outnumber liberals (though the plurality describe themselves as moderate).  Likewise, when you ask if people prefer bigger or smaller government, more will say "smaller."  But when you ask people about specific issues, like health care, Americans say by rather decisive margins that they prefer the "liberal" position (regardless of whether the position is explicitly identified with a party).  That is, people dislike the idea of liberalism, but they like liberal policies quite a bit.

Also, it's worth noting that swings in *either* direction have tended to be produced by extreme circumstances.  1968 and 1980 were hardly ordinary circumstances

October 21, 2008 5:50 PM

jacobt1 said:

AlanSP said:

"But when you ask people about specific issues, like health care, Americans say by rather decisive margins that they prefer the "liberal" position (regardless of whether the position is explicitly identified with a party).  That is, people dislike the idea of liberalism, but they like liberal policies quite a bit"

But when you ask people to increase THEIR taxes to pay for all goodies, they say, thanks , no thanks.

October 21, 2008 11:01 PM

jhildner said:

Jacob, I'm going to go ahead and pretend that you're a reasonable person who might want to offer a reasonable reply to a counter-argument.

McCain's tax plan would redistribute wealth.  Any tax plan that involves a progressive tax code redistributes wealth.  The income tax, since its inception, has always been a progressive one -- usually much more so -- and therefore has always redistributed wealth.  It was so under those socialists Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan.  In 2000, McCain himself justified a progressive tax code to an angry right-wing audience railing against tax brackets.  The only income tax structure that doesn't redistribute wealth is a flat tax.  McCain is not a flat taxer.  He has never proposed it.  Neither has any major candidate for office I'm aware of, ever.  (Forbes was not a serious contender.)

Obama proposes to make the tax code a bit more progressive and McCain proposes to make it a bit more flat.  Most of us think Obama's prescription makes sense and that the tax code is more than flat enough as it is, but reasonable people can disagree.

What is absolutely absurd is to suggest that mainstream marginal changes in policy one way or the other cross categorical lines, and that proposing a tax code slightly more progressive than it was under Bush is, for that reason alone, socialist and, by extension, un-American.

If you and your guy had an ounce of integrity, you would argue for why your position is better and why the other guy's is worse for the country without resort to moronic charges of socialism and shameful charges of anti-Americanism.  The fact that McCain doesn't is pretty damning.  It says he is incapable of crafting an honest argument to the American people with any chance of success on behalf of his policies.  The fact that you don't, I suspect, says that you're an ignorant fool without the intellect, knowledge, or generosity of mind or spirit to seriously engage anyone but the similarly impaired.

October 22, 2008 1:05 AM

harriscrl3 said:

Contrary to what people think Obama is a fiscal conservative when it comes to spending. Obama doesnt believe in big government he believes in SMART goverment there is a big difference. Part of the problem with conservatives like Bush is that they WASTE money and since they are paying 150,000 to clothe Pailn it fits right in there. If you compare Obama's headquarters in places like Arizona with McCian you will see someone who spends money wisely Vs someone who splurge. Its this kind of spending your money wisely habit is what I want to see get into the white house. For far too long Goverment has wasted money grown fat and bloated while the American people face growing economic hardship. I want someone to clean up the waste.

Carol

October 22, 2008 8:48 AM

kagoss718 said:

jacobt1, the fact that people don't want THEIR taxes increased to pay for the goodies they want isn't a rational argument in favor of conservatism or small government.  It simply demonstrates that humans tend to want something for nothing.  However, mature adults realize that it isn't possible to get something for nothing, so you either have to give up your stuff or you have to pay for it.  The political conversation we *should* be having is about how to raise the money the goverment needs fairly without providing disincentives to work, and there's plenty of room for honest argument there.  Crying socialism (and ACORN, for God's sake) is just a sign that the McCain campaign is intellectually bankrupt.

October 22, 2008 9:49 AM

jacobt1 said:

The plunder that the Democrats plan to extract from the “very rich” — the 5% that earn more than $250,000 and who already pay 60% of the federal income tax bill — will never stretch to cover the expansive programs Mr. Obama promises.

What next? A core group of Obama enthusiasts — those educated professionals who applaud the “fairness” of their candidate’s tax plans — will soon see their $100,000-$150,000 incomes targeted. As entitlements expand and a self-interested majority votes, the higher tax brackets will kick in at lower levels down the ladder, all the way to households with a $75,000 income.

The sequence is always the same. High-tax, big-spending policies force the economy to lose momentum. Then growth in government spending outstrips revenues. Fiscal and trade deficits soar. Public debt, excessive taxation and unemployment follow. The central bank tries to solve the problem by printing money. International competitiveness is lost and the currency depreciates. The system stagnates. And then a frightened electorate returns conservatives to power.

October 22, 2008 10:07 AM

jacobt1 said:

The plunder that the Democrats plan to extract from the “very rich” — the 5% that earn more than $250,000 and who already pay 60% of the federal income tax bill — will never stretch to cover the expansive programs Mr. Obama promises.

What next? A core group of Obama enthusiasts — those educated professionals who applaud the “fairness” of their candidate’s tax plans — will soon see their $100,000-$150,000 incomes targeted. As entitlements expand and a self-interested majority votes, the higher tax brackets will kick in at lower levels down the ladder, all the way to households with a $75,000 income.

The sequence is always the same. High-tax, big-spending policies force the economy to lose momentum. Then growth in government spending outstrips revenues. Fiscal and trade deficits soar. Public debt, excessive taxation and unemployment follow. The central bank tries to solve the problem by printing money. International competitiveness is lost and the currency depreciates. The system stagnates. And then a frightened electorate returns conservatives to power.

October 22, 2008 10:08 AM

kagoss718 said:

I'm pretty sure the data show that increased marginal tax rates of 2 or 3% don't have any measureable impact on productivity.  I'm in that "educated professionals with incomes of $100,000-$150,000" bracket and I can tell you that I wouldn't object to having my tax rate bumped by that amount if it means I'm not borrowing as much from my kids in the form of national debt.

Now if you're arguing that increasing taxes even that much won't pay for all the proposed programs, I think you're right.  Reality will intervene, plans will be scaled back.  But McCain's plans for tax cuts increase the deficit EXPONENTIALLY MORE than Obama's plan.  It's like he isn't even trying for reality.

October 22, 2008 10:15 AM

kagoss718 said:

Oh and Jacob, one more thought...your third paragraph describing economic apocolypse sounds a lot like the situation today, doesn't it?  After 8 years of Republican rule?  The only difference is the "high-tax" part...and seeing as how the Obama plan is to tax about the same as, say, GHW Bush, it's kind of hard to say that with a straight face.

October 22, 2008 10:17 AM

jacobt1 said:

kagoss718 said,

How about 15% including SS taxes?

" But McCain's plans for tax cuts increase "

It doesn't matter He will not have Democratic Congress.

"Reality will intervene"

How do you know Reality will stop Democrats?

" It simply demonstrates that humans tend to want something for nothing.  "

It exactly the Obama plan. He offers 95% something for nothing.

October 22, 2008 10:26 AM

jacobt1 said:

harriscrl3 said:

"Obama doesnt believe in big government he believes in SMART goverment there is a big difference"

I don't think we should discuss Obama's religion.

October 22, 2008 10:28 AM

jacobt1 said:

kagoss718 said,

"Reality will intervene"

Paul Rubin warns Americans to get ready for a new New Deal:

But if the coming wave of new regulation from an Obama administration is harmful to the economy, Mr. Obama will take a page from FDR's playbook. He'll blame Republicans for having caused the market crash in the first place, and so escape blame for the consequences of his policies. It worked for FDR and, so far in this campaign, blaming Republicans and George W. Bush has worked for Mr. Obama.

Democrats draw their political power from trial lawyers, unions, government bureaucrats, environmentalists, and, perhaps, my liberal colleagues in academia. All of these voting blocs seem to favor a larger, more intrusive government. If things proceed as they now appear likely to, we can expect major changes in policies that benefit these groups.

If those of us who favor free markets for the freedom and prosperity they bring are right, the political system may soon put our economy on track for a catastrophe.

Rubin is right, and he may not know just how right he is. Everywhere you turn, Democrats are talking about recreating the New Deal. USAction is pushing for 'the Next New Deal,' and has lined up a range of influential Representatives and Senators behind their plan. Congressman Chris VanHollen -- whose chairmanship of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee earns him dozens of loyal followers -- says of the plan "after the election, we'll put it into effect." What does it call for? An immediate end to the war in Iraq, and trillions in tax increases -- so the government can take the lead in designing, regulating, and funding health care, education, and energy.

www.weeklystandard.com/.../can_american_afford_president.asp

October 22, 2008 11:01 AM

JEFF FREY said:

So to summarize Jacob and his copy-n-paste muses of the day:

McCain's tax plan is fiscally irresponsible, and he doesn't even make a pretense of paying for it, but we shouldn't hold it against him because the Democratic Congress will act like adults and not pass it.

Obama's tax plan is more responsible, and he claims he will find savings to offset any increase in spending, but we should give him no credit for greater realism because it is all a front for trillions in tax increases that he and Democrats secretly support.

And you wonder why the Conservative movement is on the defensive?

October 22, 2008 11:46 AM

jacobt1 said:

"and he claims he will find savings "

Jeff, Are you that stupid? What this has to do with Obama anyway.  He'll sign any spending bill . That's all. He'll never veto anyting  He'll have no power or desire to stand up to Democrats in  Congress .

October 22, 2008 12:15 PM

JEFF FREY said:

In other words, he'll be just like W and not veto anything? How can you be so certain? Oh, right, those locked in rigid ideological beliefs are always certain of everything, regardless of evidence.

No, I do not believe that Obama will find a few hundred billion dollars of savings in the Federal budget, although he could come close if he really did ramp down the wars quicky. He will have to scale back on either tax cuts or spending once reality hits. But nobody can expect a candidate to do that when the other candidate continues to push a fantasyland of lower taxes and no consequences.

Personally, I prefer Obama's claim that he will take a hard look at spending to McCain's claim that earmark reform will solve the problem. McCain isn't even pretending to take the issue seriously and he is promising to run the country into the ground. Only one of the candidates acts like an adult on fiscal policy, and it is not the older guy.

October 22, 2008 1:47 PM

jacobt1 said:

JEFF FREY,

When was the last time a President did veto any spending bill of his own party?

"Personally, I prefer Obama's claim "

Sure, if it makes you feel better.  

October 22, 2008 2:02 PM

jacobt1 said:

harriscrl3  said,

"Contrary to what people think Obama is a fiscal conservative when it comes to spending."

Chicago's former school superintendent, Paul Vallas, has flunked the Annenberg education foundation headed by Barack Obama and founded by 1960s bomber Bill Ayers. The foundation gave out $50 million in grants to 200-plus public schools that partnered with community-based groups — which performed no better than other public schools.

The well-respected Vallas minces no words in criticizing the Obama/Ayers record:

There was a total lack of accountability. If you went back and asked, you'd be hard-pressed to find out how the money was spent ... Very little of the money found its way directly into the classroom ... Many of the school-reform groups viewed greater accountability as an infringement of local control. Some opposed ending social promotion and grade retention.

In other words — and bad news for poor minority children in an Obama presidency — the candidate and his crew at Annenberg failed to monitor projects and bolstered school "reform" groups that opposed stricter academic standards.

phibetacons.nationalreview.com/post

October 22, 2008 2:24 PM

s4200 said:

I am expecting the opposite.

Obama will be the crying hostage in the Oval Office, half of the country abusing him.

He will be abandoned even by the fellow Democratic senators, and the representatives.

The Republicans will have a field day to block everything he plans.

His self-corrupting impulses will even lead to an impeachment.

I want a decent Democratic president, but his is and will be beyond rescue.

The only winners are by now Iran and Russia which nurture anarchy and chaos in the world.

October 23, 2008 9:56 AM