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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
29.08.2008
McCain Was Right To Take a Risk, But Was Palin the Right One?

One thing we ought to be giving John McCain credit for in his selection of Sarah Palin is the mere fact of his having taken a risk. Indeed, being behind in the election -- and I think McCain probably will wind up being a couple of points behind once the respective convention bumps play out -- necessitates taking a risk. Suppose, for instance, that McCain is 2 points down in the election. Suppose furthermore than there is a 50 percent chance that Palin boosts his standing by 3 points, and a 50 percent chance that she makes a major gaffe that costs McCain 10 points. That's actually a pretty good gamble for McCain to take, since he'd wind up winning the election 50 percent of the time (by one point) and getting blown out the other 50 percent of the time (by 12 points) -- better than losing the election by 2 points 100 percent of the time.

Obviously, that is an idealized rendering of an exceptionally complicated dynamic, but the whole reason to make a game-changing pick is because you're losing the game. And that McCain apparently made this pick on Thursday, after having seen that Bill and Hillary Clinton had exceeded all possible expectations in rallying their supporters behind Barack Obama, showed a certain awareness of the political landscape.

Then again, I think there was a better risk for McCain to take, which would have been picking a pro-choice candidate and calling out the religious right's bluff. You want a really terrific pick? How about Olympia Snowe, who has held down a senate seat in a blue state for 14 years, and who has a formidable resume.

***

But ultimately, we are in completely uncharted territory here. Palin is the most manifestly ordinary person ever to be nominated for a major party ticket. In this year of bittergate and Britney-gate and McCain-has-seven-houses-gate, that could conceivably be a virtue; it's certainly less tone-deaf than a selection like Mitt Romney would have been.

But Palin isn't merely playing at being ordinary, the way that Bill Clinton (Rhodes Scholar) or George W. Bush (son of a president) or Hillary Clinton (wife of a president) might. She really, really comes across that way -- like someone who had won a sweepstakes or an essay contest. Her authenticity factor is off-the-charts good; her biography sings. But do Americans really want their next-door-neighbor running for Vice President, or rather someone who seems like one?

--Nate Silver

Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 9:51 PM with 65 comment(s)

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purcellneil said:

If Palin actually helps McCain, then he was in worse shape than I thought.  It is inconceivable that the addition of this dessert topping will turn the McCain fruitcake into an appealing offering.

August 29, 2008 9:57 PM

ChanRobt said:

I think she comes across ordinary but in a very impressive way.  More Ms. Smith gets brought to Washington than Hockey Mom.

She gives a better speech than most politicians.  Certainly far better than Geraldine.  And is much more sympathetic and likable than Hillary ever was.

She doesn't come off as a lightweight as Quayle did.  She exudes a down to earth, unpretentious competence and intelligence.

And I bet she doesn't have one friend who ever  tried to blow up the Capitol.

August 29, 2008 10:21 PM

rozenson said:

"Palin is the most manifestly ordinary person ever to be nominated for a major party ticket."

That's exactly it. She is a woman off the street. As Jon Stewart once said, I don't want an average Joe to be my president (or vice-president); I want someone much BETTER than me.

August 29, 2008 10:28 PM

eharder2 said:

Would it not have been shrewd of the McCain to unveil Palin as his nominee before Obama picked Biden?  I think it would have (at least in coverage) exaggerated the Clinton/Obama rift.

August 29, 2008 10:40 PM

aharris61 said:

This wasn't a calculated risk, this was McCain, the compulsive gambler (not much reporting on that, but what there has been is positively terrifying), going all in with nothing but a 10 as high card.  The problem is not that she might cause him to lose, be rather that she won't cause him to lose and that he will ned up making this "Heckova job Brownie" wannabe his successor if he dies in office.

August 29, 2008 10:44 PM

sullydog said:

I'll repeat what I said in another thread:

McCain's choice wasn't just risky, it was reckless and clueless. Not just because it objectified a female candidate (which it did) or because it cheapened the idea of a female running for veep or president (which it did), or because it was grossly irresponsible to create the potential for such a spectacularly unqualified person a heartbeat away from the presidency (which it is) or because it defuses the experience issue (which it most assuredly does).

It may also--and this is critical--have the effect of transferring the ire of Hillary "dead-enders" (I hate that term) from Obama (where it doesn't belong) to McCain (who deserves it). That is a lethal dynamic for Johnny Mac.

A colossal blunder, on SO many levels.

August 29, 2008 10:53 PM

dave_nedde said:

Watching the McCain/Palin announcement speech makes me cringe with the amateur-hour feel.  

The crowd applause seems a bit inappropriate at times:

MCCAIN: ... a devoted wife and a mother of five.

(whoops and hollers)

If Biden was introduced as a father of 3 children and the crowd went wild, wouldn't that seem a bit strange?

August 29, 2008 10:59 PM

tomeg said:

NO bounce. Death to Obama/Biden. May the Lord triumph and the evil world destroyed. Death to the World. I can't wait for the Rapture. Joy, joy joy! Freedom at last , vindication and Glory, all to the Christian God, may all deniers be punished with eternal fire and death. Hallelujah!

August 29, 2008 11:23 PM

aeromonas said:

What I'd like to know is how's the Palin pick going to play with the yentas in Boca?  My hunch is not well.  Has there ever been a more provincial candidate for national office?  

I can just imagine the questions to the running mate: "Governor Palin, can you please outline for us your position on Israel?  Can you provide any evidence that prior to your selection as Senator McCain's running mate you even had a position on Israel?  Do you have any friends who are Jewish?  Have you ever even known through work or school anyone who is Jewish?"

August 29, 2008 11:40 PM

JEFF FREY said:

Chan has judged her pretty well here, and better than the rest of you. I'm not sure about the speech though -- I was not impressed by the bits of her speech that I saw on the news. But she is smart and not a Quayle-type lightweight at all. Don't be fooled by the pretty package. She stood up to Exxon Mobil and BP and called their bluff on her natural gas pipeline plan, which is a big deal in a state where almost all revenue comes from oil, and those two giants control most of that. Plus she radiates authenticity, and it is real, and that has helped her a lot here. I don't know whether that will help quite as much in the rest of the country, where commercial fishermen and moose burgers are pretty exotic. One advantage that authenticity gives her is that it is hard to attack her without looking worse yourself. So we Democrats need to tread carefully in talking about her. Already some people are being condescending without knowing anything about her, and that's a bad idea on many levels. (But the Obama campaign has not done this as far as I know).

But I'm not sure at all that she is even remotely prepared for the Presidency. It would be a huge step. Most of her government experience is as a small town mayor. There is a real possibility that she's been tossed in over her head, but we'll see. That isn't a given, but the chance of it makes this a risky proposition. It really is a gamble that could blow up in McCain's face, but could also pay off well.

Although it detonates one of McCain's (til now) chief criticisms of Obama: lack of experience. If they give up on that, do they have anything left other than shouting, "Liberal, liberal, liberal!", or guilt-by-association smears (thanks for adding that in, Chan), or descending to race baiting? Or is McCain eventually going to say something about why we ought to vote for him, instead of why we ought not to vote for the other guy?

August 29, 2008 11:50 PM

leertracy said:

As others have blogged.... we don't want to be sexist, but someone with 5 kids, most still in school, and the youngest a special needs baby? And dad is a commercial fisherman? We know from the Dangerous Catch what that's like...

There is going to be a LOT of folks really uncomfortable with the idea of this woman who is so praiseworthy because she is a hockey mom leaving her family and going off to Washington. I have seen snippy comments about Michelle leaving Malia and Sasha to be parented by their grandmom while Michelle traipsed around, campaigning, and this reflects a really primal reaction that is going to be much stronger against Palin. There's a double-standard here, but I think it's real... the father of school age kids can run for President and people are ok with that. But mom leave her five kids for poltics?

August 30, 2008 12:41 AM

jts44 said:

Despite the seeming stupidity of the choice, I would not write off Sarah Palin quite as fast as many are doing.

I cannot believe they chose her in ignorance. They cannot be unaware of all of her negatives, I think they have a plan much different than what appears on the surface. I don't know what .... but I agree with Michael Kinsley:

"The Republicans ... play the game of presidential politics so much better [than Democrats]. They play it with genius, courage, creativity and utter ruthlessness."

www.washingtonpost.com/.../AR2008082202354.html

Utter ruthlessness .... and they haven't even begun .... I have a feeling this woman is going to be poison.

August 30, 2008 12:58 AM

psantillana said:

Why is risk good? Why should he be risking our future - if he dies and leaves her in charge - on some gut level hunch on someone he met once? Why is this a good thing?

Waging a war in the Mideast, gambling that it would pay for itself, all go smoothly as a baby's butt, also a risk. Bad, wrong, unacceptable stupid stupid risk.

August 30, 2008 1:26 AM

asnevitt said:

Are we going to talk about the fact that the main role of the VP, besides being a president in waiting, is to be the President of the United States Senate?!

This woman does not have one day of legislative experience. She is not a lawyer. She knows nothing about foreign policy, national economic policy, etc. And, yet, we're even giving a moment's thought to having her sitting in the throne of the U.S. Senate.

I'm flabbergasted. Besides the fact that any president, no matter his age, could die 15 minutes after being sworn in. You have to consider the VP to be appropriate Presidential material.

Is she really considerable as the President of the Senate? Much less, of the United States - meeting with world leaders? C'mon. Can we ground the analysis of this pick in the mundane realities, please?!

August 30, 2008 1:57 AM

The Plank said:

Since John McCain announced Sarah Palin as his VP pick, we've had quite a bit to say here at TNR

August 30, 2008 2:49 AM

boxofrox said:

Look. This is a woman that is probably quite familiar with condescension and its mechanics. She took on a pretty tough club up there in Alaska. Probably aided by a dismissive regard. Before these guys knew it their asses were in a sling.

One mundane reality is that every time you dismiss her as unqualified, you run the risk of dismissal by proxy many, many voters. We're all ordinary folks who rightly think  of ourselves having our own special standing. Oh and further, you could teach a monkey to preside over the Senate.

My sense is that she provides a set of problems for the dems for which there are no easy solutions. It all depends upon how she does out there on the stump in response to questions designed to make her look like an airhead. There is a philosophical basis for creationist advocacy. (Not one that I hold but defensible nonetheless.)

Her biggest ace in the hole right now is low regard.

August 30, 2008 7:19 AM

ChanRobt said:

Sullydog writes,"...It may also--and this is critical--have the effect of transferring the ire of Hillary "dead-enders" (I hate that term) from Obama (where it doesn't belong) to McCain (who deserves it). "

This is an interesting thesis.  I get the rest of what you wrote but would like to know more about why you think this will anger Hillary hardcore supporters.

August 30, 2008 7:29 AM

Robert Powell said:

Obama's answers to a reporter's questions about Palin were remarkably complimentary and respectful. Absolutely perfect.

I think it's going to be important to maintain real message discipline here. She is a wonderful, sympathetic figure, and Dems should bend over backwards to give her her due. It's a no-brainer how to play this.

The negatives are so obvious as to be all the more powerful without undue repetition, and the most important negative of all is what this says about McCain's judgment. He no doubt imagines that this will allow him to scoop up all the disaffected Hillary voters, indicating not only bad judgment but how little he knows or understands about them.

August 30, 2008 7:35 AM

ChanRobt said:

There is another opportunity here.  Palin took on the powers that be in her state, mainly in her own party.  Obama, by contrast, can be painted as a creature of the Chicago Machine.

Interestingly, nobody has used that against him yet, even Hillary.  Perhaps for fear of insulting Chicago andlosingits critical votes.

But, I think there is a slightly veiled way that can be used against Obama.

August 30, 2008 7:42 AM

ChanRobt said:

JEFF FREY, if you had seen her entire speech I think you would have been impressed by the effect and seen how it reinforced her "person like you but better" virtues.

Something else really smart. Staging her introduction in that plain 'ol Dayton convention hall, with a lot of pleasant ordinary folks, and with local high school cheerleaders was in marvelous contrast to the glitzy spectacle of Invesco Stadium the night before.  And Palin worked perfectly in that venue.

The staging of the Obama kickoff speech was the slickest in history.  If the "He's a shallow rock star" is a strategy that's working, the Democrats couldn't have done any more than they did to reinforce that critique.

August 30, 2008 7:52 AM

ChanRobt said:

JEFF FREY writes, "... it detonates one of McCain's (til now) chief criticisms of Obama: lack of experience. "

I don't think the campaign will walk away from that at all.

Rational or not, the expectations for the top of the ticket are higher than for the VP.  And the focus is always on the king, not the dauphine.

August 30, 2008 7:56 AM

ChanRobt said:

One more thing not to discount, Palin's political bio is of a fighter who took on the entire business and political establishment of her state.  Most especially within her own party.

Biden has no record of political courage to match that.  And most certainly, neither does Obama.

Meanwhile, it will be hard for the Dems to decry the lack of experience at the bottom of the GOP ticket without underlining the lack of experience at the top of their own.  The latter problem being more egregious.

And, she at least, has always been on the executive side of government, while Obama was in a state legislature and has spent most of his national senate tenure running for the presidency.

August 30, 2008 8:08 AM

aeromonas said:

Palin's husband isn't a commercial fisherman.  According to NYT, he works for BP on the North Slope of the Brooks Range.

August 30, 2008 8:32 AM

CharlesFosterKane said:

My gut reaction is that Palin is extremely likable. Seeing her onstage with McCain notably transforms his image and that of his campaign. It adds an interesting new dynamic to the race and Obama - much more savvy than his attack dogs - was right to step on their knee-jerk attacks. She could be gold to a lot of leaning-conservative swing voters. The more I think about her, the more I think: brilliant! What is the Republican Party's biggest problem right now? People think of rich old white men who are corrupt, hypocritical, and out of touch with the average people they claim to represent. McCain went some way towards assuaging this, with his reformist record, but he still LOOKED the part of Washington insider. Palin really softens that image, but also she kills two birds with one stone, because the social conservatives who hate McCain love her. She's from central casting - loving mother of five but also an outdoors-loving shooter and tough gal; a conservative to her core yet she takes on corrupt pols and oil companies (to a point); anti-abortion but not rabidly anti-gay. She's unique and safe, completely new yet non-threatening at the same time.

She's also a boon for Obama, though I think the net gain may redound in McCain's benefit. No matter what Chan and others say, it definitely becomes HARDER (not impossible, but hard) to attack Obama for his inexperience now. McCain and his advisors had to know this when Palin was chosen (though I suspect this was more McCain's call than his advisors'). They went with her anyway. Oh, and side note, Chan: I don't think Obama's camp should attack Palin first, but now every time McCainiacs go after Obama, Obama have a great defensive tool which didn't exist anymore. You can't overlook that. Nor can McCain trump her executive experience too much, lest he underline his own lack thereof - I expect more general praise of her exec status, like "she governed our biggest state" rather than "she's got executive experience.")

So, as an Obama supporter, I'm pleased that one of the most potent arguments against my candidate has essentially been put to rest. And as a spectator on the presidential race, I instinctively warm to both Palin and the weirdly wise chutzpah in picking her. Well-played, John. Well-played.

August 30, 2008 8:53 AM

aeromonas said:

I don't buy it CFK.  The downside for McCain in the complication of the experience meme outweighs the upside.  JM's problem with the white evangelical base isn't that very many of them would jump the aisle for Obama, it's that the aren't particularly enthusiastic about him and are less likely to canvass for him or set up phone trees and the like than they were in 2004.  I don't see Palin changing that.  And I do not believe that Palin's youth somehow rubs off onto McCain.  If anything it throws his age into sharper relief.  The first question everyone asks about ANY vice presidential nominee is, "Is he/she ready to serve as president?"  And given the equivocal answers to that question re. Palin, the next thought is, "Holy shit, she could actually become president!  McCain's seventy two!  He's had cancer!  Wow!"

August 30, 2008 9:33 AM

scrubbyoak said:

There's got to be more to this pick than the obvious. It does not make much sense on the face of it and since the Rove-like Steve Schmidt is not an idiot, Democrats should thread very carefully untill they get a precise idea what this VP gamble by McCain is all about.

August 30, 2008 9:51 AM

CharlesFosterKane said:

I don't think they'd jump to Obama, but they might stay home. Less likely now. As for Palin's youth, it doesn't rub off on McCain but it does give the whole ticket a semblence of balance. Think of it like an element in a picture which draws your eye from the central image. I think on an almost subconscious level, visceral level the Palin pick works - though it is definitely a risk and I'm not entirely sure, once everyone has time to think about it, it helps McCain more than Obama. But it has more positives (also more negatives) than almost any other possible choice I can think of. Olympia Snowe would not have played as well visually (not that she's bad-looking, just that she doesn't have the same charisma).

August 30, 2008 9:52 AM

boxofrox said:

She actuates a powerful archetype. Fecund and fearless with compassion.

Expect judgement to become the central argument since it has been the very ground Obama has claimed as his trump. There is going to be a fight for that hill.

August 30, 2008 10:22 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

Once Palin's midevil social views and retrograde, destructive record on global warming and energy independence are fully discussed and processed, the perky Mom shtick will be meaningless to the sort of independents that win elections.  

As far as supposedly reigning in female votes, she was picked entirely for her gender and probably for her beauty queen past, which is clearly sexist to most sentient human beings, let alone feminists.  Most of us woke up this morning only angier by this spectacle of sexism.  Those of you who know me, know I do not use that term lightly.  

Palin seems like a nice lady, but I find her to be a frankly ridiculous and obvious figure in this context, especially when Senators Olympia Snow, Elizabeth Dole and Kay Hutchinson are out there as intelligent, experienced and wise political figures who would have made excellent candidates.  No wonder Jean Kirkpatric threw up her hands at her party years ago.  Palin is a high school cheerleader compared to these incredible women.  

Except for the age, breeding ability and dress size of this person, she has nothing to offer. This was a pick by a 72 year old man totally out of touch with real women and entirely looking backwards to a failed ideology that trashed the economy and our standing in the world.  It borders on grotesque.

McCain and Co can say good-bye to those independent votes, if he was ever hoping to get them.

Thank you Johnnie Mac for this huge gimme.

August 30, 2008 10:43 AM

GSpinks said:

While this pick has significant upside for McCain, it occurs to me that, in the end, Obama does not need to alter his strategy as a result of this pick. Its not like he has to stop being mean, he's been pretty soft until recently. Its not like he's going to start the Character meme, he's been focusing on Issues as much as possible.

The biggest problem now is that McCain is looking at a more energized base, more likely to GOTV on November 4; the flip side is that a lot of moderates are going to reconsider themselves with a hard-core social conservative on the ticket.

I think T.O. might have said it best: "Get your popcorn ready, 'cause its gonna be a show!"

August 30, 2008 10:50 AM

JackR said:

Some new lyrics to that old Cole Porter standard "I Get a Kick out of You" as sung by John McCain:

I get no kick from Slick Mitt./

Pawlenty's chill doesn't thrill me at all,/

But here's one that'll make the Dems weep:/

It's Sarah Palin for my veep./

Huckleby's drivin' me nuts./

Kay Bailey Hutchison I can't abide,/

But the right wing and fems we'll be nailin'/

When our ticket includes Sarah Palin./

Don't even mention my pal Charlie Crist.  His preference could cause a burn-out./

Bobby Jindal's too young and too dark.  We need the racist turn-out./

I'd much prefer Lieberman or Ridge,/

But the Evangelicals would be driven up a wall./

We're on the edge of failin'./

So we might as well go, might as well go, might as well go/

With Sarah Palin.

August 30, 2008 10:55 AM

Eos said:

It is hard to see how Obama or Biden attack Palin for inexperience without exposing Obama to a comparison which he loses because he is the head of his ticket. But it is possible for them to play for Palin to screw up in a debate or elsewhere in a way that Obama has not. So a lot depends on how Palin actually performs in public. If she is persuassive and competent, then it will be very hard to attack her as inexperienced. Governorship trumps state legislator.

August 30, 2008 10:57 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

JackR - you are funny!

August 30, 2008 11:08 AM

GSpinks said:

"It is hard to see how Obama or Biden attack Palin for inexperience without exposing Obama to a comparison which he loses because he is the head of his ticket."

Agreed. Bit I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they won't bother trying with the experience attacks because there are so many policy-based issues to address.

August 30, 2008 12:12 PM

icarusr said:

Eos: no one will attack Palin for her experience; McCain has simply lost his own line of attack on experience.  But her views on Creationism and now on Climate Change, fair game.  And yeah, Bush was given a pass on Musharraf, but Palin would not be given a pass on Zardari - that is, McCain would not be given a pass for having seleced her.

Any way, the one thing that is clear is the discipline of the Obama campaign.  They will remain on message.  This is about a third term for Bush and co., and the selection of Palin will  not change that issue.

My advice to Democrats and Obama-well wishers: chill.  My advice to Chan and Eos and McCain lovers: any defence of Palin, after all the attacks on Obama's lack of experience or lightness comes across as post hoc justification.  No one is dismissing Palin, but to elevate her as the most qualified candidate or the most brilliant choice for VP is just daft.  Yeah, you win the news cycle; but that's that.

Finally, Michael Kinsley is right - the Republicans are ruthless.  But, we have already seen Obama in action, and he has been pretty ruthless too.  Chan and the rest keep writing about his Chicago politics days.  He's walked into a knife-fight, alright, but he carries a stiletto - no less deadly for being suble ...

August 30, 2008 12:27 PM

Exurban League said:

Congressional approval ratings are in the tank. Presidential ratings are only slightly better. Faced with this reality, Obama picked a Joe Biden, the ultimate Washington insider as his running mate, while McCain chose a VP from as far away from Washington

August 30, 2008 12:46 PM

sullydog said:

Chan, since I wrote it, I've already seen a live example, a PUMA friend of mine who is now livid at McCain. She was thinking of voting for him; then she cooled down a bit and was going to just "sit it out." Now she is furious with McCain and says she will vote O.

How will this play out, statistically, electorally? I dunno. I think you chose the right word: "thesis." In the volatile world of politics, anything can happen. Maybe Palin will be a perfect pick, electorally. But I don't think so. I think that all it would take is one speech from Hillary Clinton, decrying this blatant gyno-pander, to blow up the race.

I would also note that Stewart and Maher are already pushing this meme. Samantha Bea's bit on TDS was a scream.

August 30, 2008 12:50 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Was thinking: what if they end up hating each other?  

They just met!

McCain has a way of picking fights, building up grudges and then letting it seap that "John doesn't like" so and so, and we're all suposed to be chilled, because this honorable POW doesn't like someone.

He's a known screamer, will Miss Creationism Moose Mama go for that?

It's all too much.

August 30, 2008 1:01 PM

AlanSP said:

Chan & Eos,

The problem that Palin's inexperience poses for the McCain campaign isn't that Democrats would gain ground by attacking it.  Going after the VP is pretty much always a non-starter.  The problem is that every time McCain says that Obama isn't ready to be President because he doesn't have the experience, he looks like an enormous hypocrite.  It doesn't create a weakness so much as it takes away a strength.  To the extent that experience is taken off the table because either side looks hypocritical criticizing the other, Obama benefits.

The McCain campaign doesn't quite seem ready to give up the experience argument though.  From what I've seen in the media so far, the Republicans have a few strategies with this.

1.  Argue (absurdly) that Palin is ready and Obama is not because Palin has a "record of accomplishment" (seems to be their talking point) where as Obama is all talk.

2. Say that their inexperienced person is at the bottom of the ticket, not the top

3. Gender-baiting.  On CNN last night, a McCain spokeswoman got indignant about people questioning Palin, saying that a lot of women out there are getting sick of people being dismissive of women's accomplishments.  I was amazed the absolute shamelessness of it.

None of these are actually *good* arguments.  You can't be qualified to be at the bottom of the ticket if you aren't qualified to be at the top, since the only important function of the VP is possibly becoming President.  But the counterarguments may be too nuanced to sink in.

August 30, 2008 1:12 PM

vanwurs said:

Remember all those "ordinary" people that Obama lined up Thursday evening before his speech to talk about how important change would be to them.  (Including the incomparable Barney Smith, with a name and demeanor straight out of central casting...)?

Well, McCain went Barack one better.  He picked one of those folks as his Vice President.  "You too can be next in line to the most powerful job on earth and have your finger on the nuclear button!" Come on up Mrs Pallin!

Unbelievably cynical. (Shhhh....I think I hear the ghost of Tom Eagleton rattling his chains and groaning in the background.  There is a reason why Vice Presidential candidates should be vetted.)

August 30, 2008 1:19 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Dunno, Channy sounds a bit hangdog to me.  He knows this is a lightweight, sexist pick.  

August 30, 2008 1:21 PM

boxofrox said:

Wandrey. You are something in your own right. I'll bet you and Palin could set the whole world straight. No slights intended.

If only you weren't married and so damned far left I might make a play. (oh...I'm married too.) Well...

Look for small towns to be played against all of us smart citified folks with superior sensibilities. It's going to be guerilla war in the cities but the pubs will own the nether regions. You're selling this Palin short, Jill.

August 30, 2008 1:24 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Boxo - yuck!  No way!  She believes in silly, destructive things I can't abide by anymore!  No No No!

PS I KNEW it:

www.fivethirtyeight.com/.../women-more-skeptical-of-palin-than-men.html

August 30, 2008 1:57 PM

Robert Powell said:

Ditto boxo, and icarus. Obama has the proper fix on this--be cool, deferential, never actually say out loud what everybody already knows here. Palin is a fox, and the more she's treated like one, the more this looks like a horny ol' Naval Aviator falling in love for the umpteenth time. Perfect.

August 30, 2008 2:00 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

ARRRRRRRGGGGH

August 30, 2008 2:06 PM

icarusr said:

"Miss Creationism Moose Mama"

Wand: You kill me,woman!  

Boxo: no one votes for or against a VP; the simple question is how the CHOICE of VP will affect a campaign.  That choice has, in the short term, taken over the newscycle - but this will pass.  Now, what do people in small towns think about McCain and his choice once the buzz is gone?  There are those like Jacob and  Chan who will justify and defend no matter what - and Obama will never have had their support in any event.  Then there are those who will reflect that this guy selected a Governor - no matter how "accomplished" - on the basis of one meeting and one telephone call.  And then, it is the fact that the experience line of argument for McCain has now vanished; gone.  Now McCain's surrogates are reduced to crying sexism at the merest hint of a criticism.

That is, the McCain campaign is reduced to subject-verb-POW-SEXISM.

Not a winning combination - and not one that actually addresses the challenge Obama posed in his speech to Middle  America: do you want more of the same POLICIES?  Not frat-boy gimmicks, but POLICIES?

If Obama loses on that - well, that is the choice of the American people, who will pay - literally - with their blood and with more foreclosures and with illegal abortions and creationism in schools and end of stem-cell research and more tax cuts for the rich ... that is their choice.  And if they want to make that choice on the basis of the cuteness of a woman's smile or her "ordinariness", that is their choice as well.

I have more faith in the American people, however, and I suspect that in big cities and small, in the farmlands and on factory floors, in bars and pubs and lounges and hamburger joints and five star restaurants, in hotels and motels and project and mansions, the question on November 4 will be "do we want more of the same".  If the President's 27% approval rating is any indication, the answer appears to be predetermined.

As long, that is, as Obama keeps to the message.  And I am confident he will.

August 30, 2008 2:11 PM

jts44 said:

Palin is no more the kiss of death for McCain  than Dan Quayle was for  Bush senior.  I still think she poisonous and is going to make Obama's job harder.  

McCain is once again a maverick instead of McSame.  You may say but, but, but -- and make valid arguments. Nonetheless, the waters have been muddied.  What used to be an obvious, almost-impossible- to-credibly-deny fact is now open for discussion, mitigating greatly the strength of the McSame argument.  

I imagine the Republican tactic is to co-opt all of Obama's signature distinctions and muddy them the same way. It doesn't matter that the co-opted version is hollow. The goal is imbroglio.

August 30, 2008 2:15 PM

icarusr said:

RP: and after one meeting face to face and one telephone call.  

Democrats should chill, really chill.  She will be on the campaign trail and, in the meantime, she will have to bring herself up to snuff on the vast range of subjects that could be raised in the course of the debates.  People talk about foreign policy, but that is only one among at least a dozen traps that could be in her path.

It is possible that she is good enough and intelligent enough to actually manage to do this in the next six weeks.  If she does, and if she manages to respond intelligently to questions at the debate, demonstrating a deep understanding of the subject matter, then by all means, my hat is tipped to her.  But I doubt it.  And she needs just one slip - just one - to demonstrate how unfit for the Presidency MCCAIN is, for having selected her in the first place - in fact, for having put her in this difficult spot in the first place.

August 30, 2008 2:17 PM

boxofrox said:

icarusr: I think you give linear logic too much credit. We are talking stage craft which is attempting to speak on a different level and to different things. From where I stand the Palin nomination does indeed change things. I think you're going to see a different overall picture emerge from this arrangement. It will be formidable.

Hey. I could be wrong. We'll talk about it in a few months.

Powell. I saw that Palin was pulling the hugs short. She's aware of the implications. Smart cookie. (hope that's not sexist. What if it is? I'm a pig anyway... just ask my wife.)  I suspect she's going to spend the lions share of her time out there by her lonesome. All things considered.

All said from a clinical point of view this has to be the most fascinating election season I've experienced.

August 30, 2008 2:35 PM

AlanSP said:

I mostly agree with RP.  But I do think it's dangerous for Dems not to point out the hypocrisy every time the McCain campaign tries to say that Obama is too inexperienced.  Sure it *should* be obvious, but if all people hear is Democrats complimenting her and Republican talking points saying that she's actually more experienced than Obama (!), it could start to sink in.

So yeah, attacking Palin's experience isn't the way to go, but you can't let McCain have his cake and eat it too.  It wouldn't kill them to point out that by picking Sarah Palin, McCain acknowledged that readiness to be President is about more than the amount of time you've spent in Washington (or something along those lines).

August 30, 2008 2:44 PM

icarusr said:

Alan: I think the "inexperience" argument has been shelved already.  And, of course, so is the "too risky" argument.  

He has shored up, he thinks, the evangelicals, and the rest, he thinks, will be done on the basis of identity politics: benefit from latent racism and overt gender identity politics.

Boxo: You're right, and I am projecting somewhat.  Or, rather, I am somewhat applying my hopes and expectations of the American electorate to the facts on the ground.  Being urban and not even American, what the hell do I know - but I have lived in Indianapolis and Denver; in Boston I was in the white working class neighbourhoods.  The American electorate allows itself to be bamboozled once in a while, but fundamentally they can see through the game being played.

This is why Obama's response - to congratulate her and not to go after her "experience" was perfect.  She is not the issue, HE is; and, more to the point, the is HIS determination to carry on the policies and the politics of the past eight years.

As for her and how it will play out in the heartland - I don't really know.  But, let's say she is asked about the constitutional position of the VP and whether she agrees with Cheney that it is a fourth branch of government.  It is and ought to be a legitimate question at the debates.  What is her answer likely to be?  And if it is probed, someone who has not had any experience in dealing with this national and constitutional issues is not likely to be able to be nimble on her feet.  Feisty she will be; some nonanswer she will give; but how likely is it that she will have a rounded and philosophically coherent answer to that?  

As you said, we will see :-).

This is interesting: a National Review editorial from 1984.

"The Democrats will attempt to project the issue as 'whether a woman can be Vice President,' a point the Republicans can cheerfully concede, returning to the question of whether this woman in particular should be the Vice-President ... Mrs. Ferraro is manifestly an affirmative-action nominee. She has been in the House only since 1979 and cannot be said, on the record, to be as qualified to be President, if necessary, as, say John Glenn, Fritz Hollings, Mo Udall, or -- George Bush."

August 30, 2008 2:59 PM

boxofrox said:

The Obama campaign should prepare itself for sustained saturation bombing missions on 'cut and run'.

August 30, 2008 3:00 PM

boxofrox said:

icarusr: There will be a natural tendency to expect less from her because of her looks and youth and past history. If she is able to field such questions as you've proposed with any kind of facility it will likely have a multiplier effect to her good. If she fails to then it will have the same effect to the bad.

It is a gamble but some folks including herself think she is up to it.

We shall see, neh?

August 30, 2008 3:20 PM

icarusr said:

Boxo: I don't think, regardless of the lowered expectations, that "any kind of facility" would do for her.  If I were an American voter, I'd expect her to have a comprehensive understanding of the role she is undertaking and its position in the US Constitution, and this is not a hyptohetical or a theoretical question.

August 30, 2008 3:32 PM

fultimr said:

Icarusr

All logical points and I'd agree with quite a bit of what you have offered on Silver's post here.  However, all the logic and rational thinking offered doesn't eliminate the possibility of the damage that could be done with McCain's cynical choice.  Palin was chosen mostly to bring out the kind of people that recent history proves can't be counted on to make a rational choice when it comes to voting on issues of competence.  I'd agree that Palin might not pry away disaffected Clinton voters in droves, but I think the media will still play up that angle and that's a big potential problem for the Democrats for several reasons.  If both Clintons from here until November are still featured fixtures in this race at or near equal face time with Obama, McCain's getting exactly what he wants.  Since he can't win face to face with Obama, he naturally would want to widen the playing field and who better to blow it for the Dem team than somebody like Bill Clinton, who hasn't consistently shown in the past year that he can function as a team player.

If Hillary couldn't even mange to keep Bill's ego out of the game since January, just think of how little control Obama's advisors have when it comes to damage control once Bill is baited by the Rovian tactics McCain will be employing to set off the former President.  That is really the identity politics dynamic that McCain is attempting to shift the focus to.  As revered as the Clintons might be in Democratic strongholds, they are hated and viewed with pure contempt by many Independents and virtually all Republicans.  I believe it was almost a year ago that Crowley posted a bit here on TNR detailing how in virtually every southern bible state he traveled in, all the talk radio stations he could tune into were overwhelmingly centered on how the Clintons were going to steal this election.  McCain knows that and PUMA is nothing more than an attempt to remind the dittoheads that the Clintons are still as big of players in the party if not bigger than Obama.  If enough anti-Clinton Independents believe that line and otherwise depressed Republicans can be played one more time to come out and vote just with the idea that it would spite the Clintons, McCain may well be proven right and Palin will have served her only purpose.  Republicans best bet is to attempt to make this thing about the Clintons  since it's pretty clear they can't compete with Obama.

Palin also might have one big advantage in the only debate she has to participate in and it's the same ploy that served Bush so well in 2000.  She, like Bush eight years ago, didn't have to "win big" for it to be spun as a victory by media pundits over the supposedly much smarter opponent.  That's the classic Bush-Rove playbook.  Once you get the expectations low enough for dumb voters like Republicans, it's pretty easy to surpass them.  

August 30, 2008 3:35 PM

ironyroad said:

". . . and so damned far left I might make a play."

Not that I want to get in the way of a blossoming romance here, boxo (on your side at least), but . . . Wandrey is "far left"?

!!??

August 30, 2008 3:37 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

What does far left even mean anymore?  That don't want make dullards of our children and workforce with religious hooey in the public school?  Or that I don't thinking global warming is a conspiracy by Al Gore?

Ugh!  

August 30, 2008 3:59 PM

boxofrox said:

Irony. Left from where I sit I suppose. I tend to give a good deal of validity to reasoned counter arguments on most prevailing wisdoms. Not that I don't have convictions that I won't go the wall for. It's just that I see politics as a matter of folks knocking on the same door from different sides. I attribute more importance to the door than the side of it from which I am knocking on. Sorting out the proper relationship of individual v collective is that wonderful little battle which has and perhaps always will be fought out as we try to wrestle heaven to earth.

August 30, 2008 4:28 PM

boxofrox said:

I have to allow that 'far' in context of my little flirtation with Wandrey is more of a joke than anything.

August 30, 2008 4:41 PM

boxofrox said:

icarusr: I think you will hold her to a higher standard than most. If she gets a B+ she will have more than satisfied most folks. You and yours will be looking for most any reason to discount which will work against you and yours.

August 30, 2008 4:49 PM

timothycat said:

We are in one of the most dangerous periods in human history, not a good time to take a risk. Palin has many interesting qualities and given some more seasoning I'd be prepared to consider supporting her. However, we currently are dealing with an expansionist Russia, what will almost certainly be the the bloodiest Israeli vs. rest of middle east war, inreasing instability in Pakistan, and China soon being ready to succesfully take Taiwan. Obama may have limited experience but he has a support mechanism in Washington that can make up for that. If McCain were to suddenly pass Palin would be making world altering decisions with no background and no advisers whom she knows well enough to trust. This is certainly one of the most dangerous gambles I've seen a candidate for president take.    

August 30, 2008 6:02 PM

ironyroad said:

"I have to allow that 'far' in context of my little flirtation with Wandrey is more of a joke than anything."

Boxo:  In affairs of the heart, one can sometimes get carried away . . .

August 30, 2008 6:19 PM

icarusr said:

Boxo: are you talking about the soft bigotry of low expectations?  That because she's a woman, and cute, and chipper, and a moose hunter, she will be held to a lower standard than a man?  

I actually don't look for any and all reason to discount; the discounting writes itself.  If he had chosen Whitman, we would not be having this discussion; if he had chosen Jindal, we would, because he is a nut.  If he had chosen Romney, we would be discussing his flop-flops not his credentials; with Giuliani, it would be his sanity, not his religious views.  Huckabee is a decent man and although I detest his views, I think he would have been a good influence on McCain; Ridge is solid and so is Crist - his having given back felons the right to vote was a decent thing to do and a very difficult thing to do as well, but the right thing to do, and for that I applaud him.

You may be right that is can tell the difference between the Senate and the House, she will be considered a major success.  I worry, however, that as long as a year ago she said she had not thought about Iraq -  and her son may well shipped out there.  I worry - I am not American, but what you guys decide, unfortunately, has an impact on the rest of us - I worry that her other qualification as governor is as mayor of a city of 6300, 8500 or 9000 - which is about how many constituents I had in my first election - at the age of 22.  To note these concerns is not to express a particularly pro-Obama stance.

Fultimr: as I think I mentioned above, the one thing that has impressed me with Obama is the discipline he has shown in the campaign.  Since Iowa, despite all the knocks, he has not got off his stride and has not shifted his campaign.  Nothing in his comportment suggests to me that he will suddenly change his game plan now.  And that he might use Bill or Hillary Clinton in campaigns, would not in any way suggest to me that he would allow either of them to go off message.

You're right, Bill is toxic in parts of the country; but, man, he is good when he is good.  Obama does not need the South; he needs the mid-West; the Clintons are not necessary, nor are they sufficient, but they are additional and welcome weapons in Obama's formidable campaign.

August 30, 2008 7:53 PM

boxofrox said:

icarusr:. \You're so much inside the box as to brand you conventional.

I say it's likely that she does just fine. Likely better than most members of our illustrious Congress  could ever  do.....

Then the narrative  becomes something else. Watch well. She won't be Blye. She won't be ashamed of her absolutes and she will show quite well. Fecund, fearless and  compassionate. That's about all of  my dispassionate appraisal.  Take it as you will;. I may be wrong. Sheena may be an abortion advocate. I don't think so. Somehow I think sisterhood may transcend those niggling notions of decision and advocacy other than what makes llife live.

August 30, 2008 11:29 PM

hewstino said:

The Palin selection is a gift to Democrats, if  we play our cards right.  Her selection taints McCain's self-vaunted "judgement" like no Obama speech ever could.

I've seen this advice repeated elsewhere, but we should really lay off for a while and let the choice sink in with the public.  McCain has obviously decided that hewing to the "maverick" image with a small-town mayor who might well  be ethically shaky is important enough to risk having people reminded that he's 72 years old and  has had  multiple bouts of  cancer.  The media will be doing all of this, and just when people might be warming to Obama.  How can this be a bad thing?

August 30, 2008 11:56 PM