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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
02.07.2008
Some Thoughts on Patriotism

 

Our old editor Peter Beinart has a terrific essay in Time about patriotism. Peter explains that liberalism and conservatism each have their own definitions of patriotism. Liberal patriotism means loving America's ideals and striving to bring the reality into closer alignment with them, while conservative patriotism means loving America unconditionally and celebrating its past. Peter argues that neither definition is perfect, and that true patriotism requires a blend of both. Give it a read.

Meanwhile, in yesterday's USA Today, Jonah Goldberg offers up a perfect specimen of the undistilled conservative patriotism that Peter so ably dissects. Oddly, Jonah ofers up this strange example of liberalism's alleged contempt for the United States:

Many progressives in the 1920s considered the American hinterlands a vast sea of yokels and boobs, incapable of grasping how much they needed what the activists were selling.

The Nation ran a famous series then called "These United States," in which smug emissaries from East Coast cities chronicled the "backward" attitudes of what today would be called fly-over country. One correspondent proclaimed that in "backwoods" New York (i.e. outside the Big Apple): "Resistance to change is their most sacred principle." If that was their attitude to New York, it shouldn't surprise that they felt even worse about the South. One author explained that Dixie needed nothing less than an invasion of liberal "missionaries" so that the "light of civilization" might finally be glimpsed down there.

The last example is especially strange -- despairing about the political culture of the South in the 1920's, where disenfranchisement, lynching, and even slavery were routine practices, is a sign of insufficent patriotism? If that doesn't show the deficiencies of the right's style of patriotism, nothing does.

Even Jonah's other example, about smug New Yorkers sneering at backwoods America, doesn't prove quite what Jonah thinks. Yes, throughout history and up to the present day you can find plenty of examples of urban liberals disparaging what's now called "red state America." But you can find just as many examples of rural conservatives disparaging what we now call "blue state America." Indeed, the latter has now become far, far more common. You can scarcely pick up a conservative magazine or newspaper without seeing insults hurled at the effete, latte-sipping blue states.

Conservatives tend not to think of their anti-blue state biases as unpatriotic, because they like to portray them as tiny coastal enclaves totally unrepresentative of the "real" America." This is a common trick, based on the misleading fact that red state America consists of geographically large but low-population density places. The reality is that blue state America accounted for just over half the electorate in 2000, just under in 2004, and is probably above that now.

So if expressing contempt for the political and social mores of half of America is evidence of a lack of patriotism, then most conservative pundits and intellectuals aren't patriotic.

--Jonathan Chait

Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:24 AM with 18 comment(s)

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blackton said:

Jonah Goldberg grew up in New York City and attended Dwight Preparatory school in Manhattan.

With a name like Goldberg and coming from NYC I can pretty much guarantee he would not have been invited to become a member in most Republican Country Clubs throughout flyover America in the past (and probably many not even today), And most average red state Americans would find it odd that a New York City guy with a Jewish name would claim to possess expertise on what they think and believe.

I come from, if not Red state America, a Red county in a blue state (Pat Toomey of Club for Growth was my Congressman). I am sure Goldberg would feel like a fish out of water if he lived where I did and would doubtless end up associating with local Liberals who would much more easily accept him.

July 2, 2008 12:20 PM

scire said:

and sophisticated Republicans also have contempt for backwoods America. I briefly dated an educated Republican who was always poking fun at "rubes" and "hicks" and wouldn't stand in line behind a group of rednecks when we made a stop during a road trip, preferring to get back in the car and drive another hundred miles to avoid such exposure, even though we were both hungry. When I expressed dismay at the silliness of this attitude, his defense was that his ex-wife was worse: she wouldn't travel to rural parts of the country, even tourist destinations, because she didn't want her kids exposed to "hicks, " and would not approve of his taking them on vacations to places as benign as rural upstate NY. His bigotry on this topic was one of the reasons I stopped dating him.

I highly doubt their perspective is uniqure among the educated right.

They just don't do it on paper.

July 2, 2008 12:26 PM

propositionjoe said:

Jonah Goldberg's historical analysis needs some work. Regarding the 1920s South, was there a more critical voice of the people and the region than  H.L. Mencken? This guy was very culturally conservative and heaped onto those southerners whom Goldberg tries to rescue a giant load of calumny. He called them (and other less than well-read people) members of the "boob-eoisie" and referred to the South as "the Sahara of the bozart"--his condescending rendering of beaux arts. In short, there has been no shortage of cultural condescension emanating from conservative circles, which Bill Buckley and Albert Jay Nock readily and happily would have admitted.

July 2, 2008 12:38 PM

ironyroad said:

I've always wanted to relate this little experience.  During the Abu Ghraib scandal, I was looking at the morning show on C-SPAN (the one with phone-ins) and, as usual, there were a lot of calls that were quite passionate on one side of the controversy or the other.  Anyhow, this guy calls in from a trailer park in South Carolina and talks contemptuously about the Democrats getting all riled up about the quasi-sexual tortures/humiliations at Abu Ghraib, and finishes up by saying scornfully "I don't why these liberals are all so concerned about it, becuase that's just the sort of stuff they do themselves in San Francisco or or one of them places."

The dismal stupidity pushed me over the edge.

I stood up and shouted at the TV:  "Yes, you fucking moron, and in Iraq the people think a lot more like they do in South Carolina than in San Francisco!"

July 2, 2008 12:50 PM

JSmith125 said:

Goldberg says that American patriotism includes "an abiding belief in the inherent and enduring goodness of the American nation," and that this is what conservatives have and liberals don't.

Right..... Which I guess is why Mitt Romney last year called America "“a cesspool of violence, and sex, and drugs, and indolence, and perversions,” Peggy Noonan called it a "culture of death" (referring, she emphasized, to "our culture" as a whole, which Americans swim in like "an ocean"), the Revs. Falwell and Robertson said it was a country whose people have incurred God's wrath by allowing “the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians" to run loose, and so on.

Conservatives have no abiding love for "the American nation" if we mean the nation that actually exists. They have an abiding love for their own fantasized utopia, which they arbitrarily choose to label "America" even as they blast away at the alleged moral depravity and corruption of the actual America. (For anyone who's interested, I discuss this in more detail in "Why Conservatives are Always Wrong," conservativesarealwayswrong.googlepages.com.)

July 2, 2008 1:50 PM

Rhubarbs said:

Two things that are inconsistent with American patriotism:

1. Contempt for America, for American people, or for any significant portion thereof.

2. Admiration for the Confederate rebellion against the United States.

To the extent to which you hold any part of America or any portion of the American people in sustained contempt, or to which you admire the Confederacy, to that extent you are an America-hating anti-patriot.

Now, I grant that a lot of liberals hold large swaths of their fellow citizens in some degree of sustained contempt, and this is a bad thing. (And "sustained" is the key here. I hate people from Maryland, but only when I'm driving in Virginia and they're on the roads here. At all other times, I like Marylanders just fine. Liberals who hold Evangelicals in contempt sustain the feeling from day to day, month to month, independent of immediate circumstances.) But liberal contempt for their fellow Americans tends to be based on nation-wide classes and on chosen behavior. Conservative contempt for their fellow Americans tends to be based on state or regional location and on non-chosen attributes. So liberals look down on biblical-literalist exurbanites or on farmers who vote themselves off their land to save the babies from abortion. Conservatives look down on the entire state of California, for example, or black people and gays. Neither is attractive, but the liberal version is easier to overcome.

July 2, 2008 1:54 PM

tec619 said:

ironyroad : I was planning to comment on the subject of this thread, but that liberal/San Francisco/torture anecdote is killing me. I'll may not stop laughing until tomorrow.  It reminds me of the rodeo scene in "Borat" when a local suggests to that a homosexual pogrom would be a desirable pursuit.

Y'know, I've travelled to SF four times in the past four years and haven't witnessed any of those nifty Abu Gharib/Cirque du Soleil sex acts. Are they performed in public? Do the dogs have all their shots?

This sort of thing isn't my cup of tea but if ticket proceeds are donated to charity, I'd be willing to purchase one.

July 2, 2008 1:56 PM

Rhubarbs said:

And Jonathan: Thanks for the beautiful flag picture. I hope you find frequent excuses to feature it again here!

July 2, 2008 2:00 PM

butchie b said:

Nice cherry-picking, JSmith.  Um, how do you explain the CW that conservatives are more patriotic than liberals?  I don't believe it for a moment, but you must admit that sentiment exists, or else liberals wouldn't be going around saying, we are too, we are too.  BTW, no person or group is always wrong, not even bozos like you.

Well said, Rhubs, though I suspect that neither side WANTS to overcome its contempt for the other.  Everyone needs someone to look down on.  Hell, Arkansas' official state motto is "Thank God for Mississippi."

July 2, 2008 3:44 PM

timteeter said:

I work in a county that was notorious for lynchings in the 1920s, and in a state that was described not unfairly as a banana republic when they couldn't figure out which of three men was governor in the 1940's (google Three Governors controversy Georgia).  Things are a lot better now, but it was hardly unpatriotic for liberals to think Georgia needed northern missionaries.  I think they called them Freedom Riders in the 60s.

July 2, 2008 3:48 PM

psantillana said:

Jonah's an idiot.

I don't feel like reading the Beinart article, because I already know what I think, which is that the so-called conservative definition of unconditional love and celebration of the past is not only not necessary but not compatible with the so-called liberal definition of loyalty to ideals. If you are loyal to ideals, then you can't say "America right or wrong" - wrong is not an option. If you celebrate the past and ignore the parts that shouldn't be celebrated then you won't learn from the past. But apparently you don't need to learn if America is always right. It's all good! All of the time! F that and the train it rode in on.

July 2, 2008 4:14 PM

skipper2379 said:

Very good points. I would just make the uncomfortable observation that The Nation--with the phrase, "light of civilization"--was being hyperbolic in its condemnation of the South. Of course, this is not to apologize for Jim Crow; I am making an argument about semantics, not morals. Civilization is entirely compatible with slavery--witness 5th Century Greece, the most obvious example. Slavery, as practiced in the Americas, was indeed peculiar. Europeans who fretted so reasonably about young Christians being enslaved by "barbaric" Ottomans soon enslaved what was considered an entirely alien race; it was then that slavery once again lost its connotation of barbarism. This connotation was regained with the Enlightenment, and slavery was banned in Revolutionary France (I think) and in the 1830s in England; the slave trade had been abolished in 1807. It was the Enlightenment and the changing economics brought about by Industrialism that made slavery abhorrent and "unnecessary". If The Nation meant "light of civilization", with its theme of illumination, as a reference to the Enlightenment, then they are obliquely accurate. If not, their definition of civilization is far too narrow. Renaissance Florence, for all its iniquities, was a civilization  

July 2, 2008 4:39 PM

boxofrox said:

It's not too hard to find and give examples of ignorance. This little game is no exception. It's kind of funny when the contenders for valid patriotism are claiming the same foundational principles as the touchstone. I've found some profoundly looney shit from both persuasions in contention. The liberal looney shit usually touches the 'so open minded your brains have fallen out' variety. The conservative looney shit is usually of the 'just crawled out from under the rock' variety. Often enough you will get a fascinating combination of the two filled with paranoid imaginings coupled to the irredeemable nature of mankind. The political preference determined by the urge to hunker to the rock or blast off into space.

I don't know. Most folks I know play it fairly straight and aren't as ignorant or thoughtless as contenders would have it. Dixie or  North. City and rural.

July 2, 2008 4:48 PM

ironyroad said:

tec -- hey, I know that SF feeling of frustration, which has left me standing at Market and Kearney at 2 a.m. wondering where all the action was.  Back then I didn't know of William Yard, of course, so I couldn't check in with him and exploit his pertinent local knowledge.  But -- coming back to the caller -- what also struck me was that he didn't seem to understand that there might be some slight difference between voluntary participation in group sexual activities and being terrorized into same by vicious dogs and armed MPs.

July 2, 2008 5:24 PM

phatkarp said:

Did anyone go on and read Beinart's article?  It was brilliant.  

I tend to the liberal side of his description of patriotism, but I appreciated how he points out the problems with the extremes of both concepts of patriotism.  The best sort of patriotism is tempered by considerations from both viewpoints.  

Anyway, the framework he uses to describe liberal v. conservative patriotism is right on.  A true "must-read" article.

July 2, 2008 6:43 PM

JSmith125 said:

butchie b, how are those examples "cherry-picking"? Do you think such views are not frequently heard on the right? As to your question, I already suggested what i think is the answer: Although the thing that conservatives are actually loyal to is as much an "ideal" as anything liberals value -- I would actually call it a fantasy of a never-never-land America -- they choose to call it "America" and to invoke traditional symbols of American patriotism, like flags and eagles (which are just that -- symbols -- and therefore also in the realm of ideals). Liberals call their ideals by the names of those ideals: justice, racial equality, the rule of law, etc.

So basically I accept Beinart's analysis, but with the caveat that conservative rhetoric about "loving America unconditionally" refers to loving an idealized America, not the America that actually exists -- which they criticize at least as loudly and bitterly as the left. Both sides are devoted to ideals, but conservatives were first to do what the left should have done, which is to frame its idealism as patriotism and to appropriate the symbols of patiotism for its ideals.

P.S.: "bozo"? Do you find it usually helps advance the discussion if you insult the people you're having it with? You must be lots of fun at dinner parties.

July 2, 2008 9:09 PM

boxofrox said:

JSmith125. What is it that I said which gives you pause when passing the potatoes?

Bozo.

July 3, 2008 4:30 AM

JSmith125 said:

Sorry, boxofrox, didn't notice you were here. I just think if we're going to toss around terms of abuse, we should stick with something more suitable to a serious journal of opinion, like maybe "spaz" or "poopie-pants." If unable to make a good argument, an always-effective rejoinder is "Ask me what, chicken snot -- ask me why, chicken pie." I just want to maintain the high standards of the TNR forums.

July 3, 2008 12:40 PM