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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
01.07.2008
What Did Vietnam Teach John McCain?

People are rushing to denounce Wesley Clark for asking whether McCain's POW experience taught him what he needs to know as Commander-in-Chief.

That's fine from a political standpoint, but as a voter, I think this should actually be a legitimate line of inquiry. McCain's POW experience is clearly central to his worldview. We should be asking what lessons he draws from that experience, and whether they're appropriate to managing the current situation our country faces.

It is possible to learn the wrong lessons from one's personal experience in war. Here's an example: My father was also shot down over Vietnam. Based on that experience, he insisted on never, ever locking the door on any moving vehicle for the rest of his life, in case he needed to climb out.

This wasn't particularly rational behavior. In fact, it was positively irrational. But his experience in Vietnam was so vivid that he applied it categorically to all seemingly similar situations.

I would be deeply surprised if nothing similar happened to McCain during five and a half years as a prisoner. In fact, everything written about McCain's experience as a POW indicates the lessons he learned there were very similar to the ones he wants the U.S. to apply in Iraq.

It was loyalty to the flag and his cellmates, an infinite willingness to stay the course, and a stubborn refusal to bend that carried him through. Indeed, the difference between victory and defeat was literally whether or not you decided to give up: As a recent Times piece explained, McCain was incensed at the prisoners who went home because they agreed to sign statements asking for "amnesty" and thanking the North Vietnamese. He later decided they'd turned into "finks" because the anti-war movement at home had weakened their will to persevere--an assertion historians have called misleading.

The qualities McCain exalts are absolutely admirable, but it doesn't follow automatically that they're infinitely applicable. Giving your cellmates unfailing moral support, for example, is not the same thing as running a war or laying out a long-term policy for Iraq. There's a danger in conflating the two. McCain may lean too heavily on willpower and symbolism simply because those approaches are most mentally accessible.

Is McCain overvaluing the lessons of the Hanoi Hilton, perhaps to the exclusion of other battlefield and executive virtues? I don't know, but it wouldn't be unpatriotic to ask. And someone like General Clark might be in a position to judge.

--Barron YoungSmith

Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:40 AM with 14 comment(s)

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The Ignorant Populist said:

I think there's a lot of mystique surrounding McCain. It won't be challanged by respectable, centrist journalists but someone, should, at some point ask some questions. In the interest of swift-boating fairness, at the very least.

I mean, lets look at the medal tally?

He flew 23 bombing missions over North Vietnam, each averaging about half an hour, total time ten hours and thirty minutes. For these brief excursions the admiral's son was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legions of Merit, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, three Bronze Stars, the Vietnamese Legion of Honor and three Purple Hearts. US Veteran Dispatch calculates our hero earned a medal an hour.

A medal an hour? I wonder how many grunts with Kerry in that boat earned a medal an hour? Or how many grunts in the jungle actually killing people up close and personal, earned a medal an hour?

Kerry should have got in a plane. He must be kicking himself.

July 1, 2008 6:50 AM

raylward said:

Viet Nam continues to hang over America, lessons not learned, history to be rewritten.   It is only fitting that McCain, a prisoner from that war, would be elected President by a country that continues to be held prisoner of that war.  Maybe only McCain can free America from Viet Nam.  But at what cost?

July 1, 2008 8:09 AM

sdemuth said:

"We should be asking what lessons he draws from that experience, and whether they're appropriate to managing the current situation our country faces."

This is of course precisely the question voters should be asking about John McCain's experience, in the military and since, as well as of Barack Obama's experience as a law student, lawyer, community organizer, etc.

The difficulty in McCain's case is that even asking the question opens one to being labeled unpatriotic by the Republican smear machine.  Obama's comments yesterday about patriotism are thus the right political response - acknowledge the significance of McCain's experience as a sign of devotion to country and duty, but not as a testing ground for the presidency.

But, at the risk of opening myself to being called unpatriotic I will say the obvious: being a warrior of the kind John McCain was is not much of a qualification for the presidency.  Pilots operate almost entirely in a minute-to-minute tactical world, where getting bombs on target and getting back alive is the only thing that matters.  Questions like whether you are hitting the right target, for the right reasons are left to others.  The fact that the decisions are life and death adds little of relevance to the mix - surgeons make life and death decisions all the time, but knowing how to repair a damaged heart valve doesn't give you any particular insight into health care policy.

McCain's POW experience is arguably quite different in this regard, since here he was to some degree in a leadership role, working with no resources in the most difficult of circumstances.  But it is still comes off mostly as telling us about his character (stubbornly devoted to his beliefs, a guy to have in your corner in a fight, compassionate and fiercely protective of his fellows) and not his policy and national leadership skills.

If you want to think creatively about this, compare John McCain's military experience to Dwight Eisenhower's.  Ike's experience was clearly and unambiguously preparation for the kind of big-picture thinking the presidency requires - leagues beyond that of any 23 mission pilot in a Stalag.

July 1, 2008 8:17 AM

sdemuth said:

"Maybe only McCain can free America from Viet Nam."

Getting us baby boomers out of leadership postiions and into nursing homes and graves will free the country from the ghosts of Vietnam.   Having another Vietnam era adult on the national ticket only makes it worse, and delays the inevitable passing of the torch.

July 1, 2008 8:20 AM

boxofrox said:

We might consider it possible that McCain's service and experiences acquainted him with the nether reaches of human potentials just shy of death. This counts for something.

If we are going to attribute a uniqueness to Obama's experiences accorded his station (and I do) then it only fair and right to extend the same to McCain.

July 1, 2008 9:04 AM

lesserliz said:

Iggy,

Yeah the politically connected do tend to get overmedaled/lauded. I recall that LBJ got one for being a passenger in a plane that was shot at. JFK was honored for driving his PT boat in front of a Japanese ship and getting it cut in half(for which General MacArthur wanted him court-martialed but his dad was an ambassador so forget it).

And Sdemuth, yes it is the type of experience that matters-rotting in a cell doesn't come up to planning the invasion of Normandy(and getting your PT boat smashed doesn't qualify for planning a Bay of Pigs invasion). However McCain was dropping bombs on people 8000 miles from home for dubious reasons. I fear that that experience is not a plus for a potential prez in pondering dealing with Iran.

I think in general, just because you served or shed blood shouldn't give one a stronger voice in deciding military policy over a non server(except that chickenhawks like Cheney et al  in general shouldn't be allowed to lead us into war).  I served and shed blood but I seek no creds( I grated my knuckles with a cheese grater while on KP-hey the wounds were equal to Kerry's).

July 1, 2008 9:55 AM

WaltB said:

"Getting us baby boomers out of leadership postiions and into nursing homes and graves will free the country from the ghosts of Vietnam."  Possibly, but then there'll be the grip of Iraq (twice over).  

I respect Sen. McCain, but I completely agree with Gen. Clark.  Nothing in McCain's past gives him experience to be President, just as nothing in Hillary's does either.  The only experience to be had for that office is to be President, because there's no other job like it anywhere.

July 1, 2008 10:05 AM

michael said:

  I was writing to a friend before this issue was discussed. I brought up the following and I don't know if it deserves consideration or not.

____

  A factor that  isn't discussed is his dad and grandfather were Admirals.  I think his goals were realistically set on that and he may not be candid about  the "what if" or "why not" and "who's to blame"?  And I don't mean he 'isn't over missing the promotion'. Rather, I think he's stuck w/a pre-'67 mind-set on why things went wrong and many of his views are a need to work out his past. It is more than  fighting the last war because the price is more personal for him.

____

 So I'm less concerned with the actual trauma that can be positive or a negative depending on more factors than we can measure.  We do know that he was more invested in a path in life than many veterans who saw their goals disappear. Unlike Clark or Powell he couldn't rely on continuity in his career because he was effectively off the track. Finally, as a prisoner he didn't see the mood of the country evolve from a healthy perspective and he's admitted that he wasn't prepared for the changes in the US upon his return to freedom.

 So it is irresponsible and foolish to not question consequences of his captivity. Were they purely and wholly positive?  That doesn't tarnish his status as a hero or question his patriotism but the position he seeks isn't based on good deeds. The office isn't a prize we award to icons but if we think the qualities in his past matter, we can't pick or chose so we elect a legend...Neither he nor Barack are that, yet.

July 1, 2008 10:40 AM

blackton said:

After 6 more months of McCain having other tout his heroism will likely lead to one response

"We are not worthy to elect John McCain." I, for one, don't want to be reminded for 4 years why I am not worthy to tie his shoes. Yes John, you are a hero, a truly great man, now just go away and leave me to my mediocrity.

McCain might make the same mistake as Hillary and make it all about him. At least Obama has the sense to say "We."

July 1, 2008 10:45 AM

blackton said:

Are you homeless? Well, John McCain had to suffer for 6 long years in a prison cell no bigger than a bread box. Lack health care? Well John McCain's health care was biting on his upper lip as he was tortured. Hungry? Well, John McCain had to eat cockroaches to survive. No matter what your problem is John McCain can one up you with his experience in Vietnam so don't even try. How dare anyone question any of John McCain's politices, don't you know he was a War hero? And did I mention his heroism in the Vietnam War? Now STFU America, I mean STFU my friends and vote for McCain.

July 1, 2008 10:56 AM

ironyroad said:

I think John Kerry would have done that important job of making America confront the Vietnam history in the person of the president, and then get over it finally.  The reason:  because Kerry both served in Vietnam and then resigned to actively campaign against the war.  He contained both experiences, military and anti-war movement.  McCain doesn't, and it shows.  Although it's also worth noting that Kerry was thinking about -- and may even have acted on -- asking McCain to be on the ticket in 2004.

July 1, 2008 11:32 AM

scire said:

I think the very fact that more than thirty years later, his Vietnam experience colors his worldview so vividly is cause for concern. It suggests that he never got over the trauma of this experience.

My father was in Vietnam for three years. For my entire childhood, his experiences there were the main subject of dinner conversation; he just couldn't get over it. And to this day, most of his leisure reading is about Vietnam; his bookcases are filled with probably every book that has been written from the French occupation of Vietnam to the present.  He remains an apologist for the war and keeps trying to find new historical evidence to back up his position. And he wasn't tortured.

We have a family friend who was imprisoned and tortured by the Vietcong for seven years. The guy is positively lulu. Of course we honor his service, but I think his experience DEFINITELY does not qualify him to be my childrens' babysitter, let alone hold a position of authority.

While I certainly would not accuse McCain of being unhinged in any way by his experience, I do think it has colored his Iraq War stance,probably has something to do with his famous uncontrolled temper,  makes him a little rabid on the topic of honor, and contributes to his holier-than-thou attitude about his qualifications to be president. He's not objective on the issue of war. This is why I am concerned.

July 1, 2008 12:08 PM

Daily Intelligencer - New York Magazine said:

The voices of outrage face off against those pundits who can afford to defend Clark.

July 1, 2008 12:57 PM

lamh31 said:

I have nothing to add.  I just wanted to say thank you to tnr and my fellow posters for finally having a real conversation about clark/mccain without any of the drama queen antics like the so-called bastion of the lib blogosphere

July 1, 2008 1:39 PM