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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
02.06.2008
Is It Bad If Demography Is Destiny?

In linking to this insightful Patrick Ruffini post about the irrelevance of polling in Democratic primaries this year, Ezra Klein says, "In this race, demography really has been destiny, and that doesn't strike me as an encouraging conclusion."

I'm of two minds on this. Insofar as politics ought to be about ideas and not personalities, it certainly is discouraging when demography determines election outcomes, since it implies that factors other than impartial judgments of policy proposals are at work. But frankly, this year's Democratic primary couldn't hinge on issues for the simple reason that there are almost no substantive ideological differences between the two candidates. And yet, the election still had to be decided one way or the other, so in this instance I'm inclined to say it's not that ominous if cleavages like race, gender, age, class, and region end up deciding the winner. Indeed, demography often ends up looming large in primary elections, at all levels, because, as in this year's presidential race, there's often little else (besides nebulous ideas like "experience" and "judgment") to base one's vote on.

What is both surprising and a little disconcerting to me is the ferocity of the sentiment the campaign has generated. (See, for instance, Eve's wonderful dispatch from the Rules and Bylaws Committee brouhaha.) Even if it's somewhat reasonable to expect demography to predict voting patterns in a contest like this one, it's also reasonable to expect people to be fairly indifferent about the ultimate outcome. But, in fact, we've seen the exact opposite: The raw emotion of the campaign reached a crescendo just as the ideological stakes reached a nadir, and the number of Clinton and Obama supporters who say they'd be unwilling to support the other candidate in a general election seems to have grown over the course of the past three months.

In his column defending Mitt Romney's transparent phoniness, Jon Chait referred to the "essentially transactional nature of the presidency." I don't quite agree with this description--in the context of the presidency, things like personal character, political style, judgment, integrity, and sincerity matter more than they do in the context of, say, a House election. So that provides at least some basis for caring about the outcome of a primary. But there's no question the office is, or should be, largely transactional: You elect in order to enact your preferences into law. It simply makes no sense to care so deeply about the outcome of a race between two candidates who believe in the same things.

The fervor this campaign has unleased is a grim reminder of how far removed this textbook conception of the political process often is from reality. Politics can easily end up being tribal, not rational; there's a natural urge to pick a side and defend it, regardless of the ideological stakes involved. The longer the fight goes on and the closer the race appears, the deeper the divide becomes--it takes on a life of its own and before you know it you have irate activists traveling thousands of miles to Washington in passionate opposition to the fair and legitimate nomination of a candidate whose views they agree with. In short, the problem is not that demography determined the outcome of the Democratic race--it's that people (journalists included!) became so emotionally invested in such a superficial contest.

--Josh Patashnik 

Posted: Monday, June 02, 2008 4:24 PM with 46 comment(s)

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sabatia said:

As a Mass boy who has served Dem and Rep governors and who has been involved in politics there for forty-seven years, I delight at all snarky references to Mitt Romney. I  though Josh did an excellent job of capturing something essential about the man, with great brevity reflecting Josh's keen insight: "In his column defending Mitt Romney's transparent phoniness" It is a phrase that exudes a greatness far in excess of the man Romney.

Romney's big speech on religion was almost Zen-like in its right-wing pandering emptiness. But what fouled his stab at talking about the spirit and our relationship to the spiritual world was his vicious blaming of the nation's problems on "Secularists." This was particularly ironic as Mitt was elected by the people of the most secular state in the nation who did not give a hoot about his Mormon religion, and his campaign was suffering because of religious bias among the evangelical base.  Plus it was scapegoating of the secular minority for purely political reasons.

As you can tell: I think Mitt Romney is a particularly disgusting and ruthless kind of politician. Frankly, Romney's negative blaming path is being echoed quite loudly by Ms. Clinton.

June 2, 2008 4:53 PM

Sirhc said:

Demagogue: From the Greek (demos) and Lead (agein)

Demography: To write about the people (combining French and Greek)

Here is what we know:

If a white candidate says over and over, (paraphrasing), "I'm white, he's black.  White people will vote for me."  Eventually, she will lead the white people to fulfilling her prophecy and she will lead  the press to write stories about the people that really should be about her demagoguery.    

Clinton, with the help of the press, conjured up the demography issues.  Before she started running as the white candidate, Obama was doing fine amongst both groups.  

June 2, 2008 4:58 PM

Rhubarbs said:

Actually, Josh, Hillary's record -- as distinct from her mere statements of position, which in the campaign have been both self-contradicting and at significant variance with her actual record of performance -- gives plenty of grounds for having a strong preference for or against the two candidates relative to each other. I do not think invading Iraq was a good idea. I favor liberty over state power. I am for the freedom of speech and expression. I think bankruptcy laws should protect families first, secured creditors second, credit card lenders last, not the other way around. I am in favor of achieving universal healthcare. I think diplomacy, not empty military threats, ought to be our primary face to the world.

On all these points, Hillary has a record of clear disagreement with my values and policy preferences. During the campaign, she has claimed to believe what I believe, to support the policies I support, but her record is such that only an idiot who shares my policy preferences would not prefer Obama over Hillary. I do not mean to suggest that Hillary supporters are idiots -- merely that I assume that they are in favor of the war, in favor of the Patriot Act, in favor of repealing the First Amendment, in favor of punitive bankruptcy laws, and in favor of President Bush's conduct of U.S. foreign policy generally, just like Hillary's record shows her to be. There really are significant policy differences between these two candidates, at least as long as one refers to each candidate's actions rather than his or her most recent verbal promises.

June 2, 2008 4:58 PM

blackton said:

If it had come down to between Edwards and Obama I don't believe for a moment it would have gotten so ugly. Edwards has shown himself to be a graceful loser, twice. And if he had won this round he would have been a graceful winner. I myself would have found little for me to protest against him.

And what is this demography is destiny. I am a white male, one candidate is white, the other is male. So what? I voted for Christie Todd Whitman twice. I thought she was an excellent Governor and a fine human being. Her being female had, as far I know, had little to do with her election.

I think it is ridiculous to label both sides irrational. That is the same as saying, well maybe both Japan and the United States were both wrong in WW2. Sometimes, as much as people might not like it, this might not be comparing apples to apples, but is instead comparing apples to a batshit insane woman.

June 2, 2008 5:10 PM

blackton said:

sabatia, give credit to Romney for getting out when he did though. He has more class than Hillary (although at this point I am willing to admit Paris Hilton has more class than Hillary)

June 2, 2008 5:31 PM

liberal reformer said:

Paul Krugman makes a persuasive case that Obama is to the right of Hillary on economic issues. So if that is the case, then Obama is to the right of progressive values. Obama is largely an unknown quantity, hence he can position himself rhetorically where he wants. He is a Rorschach blot to many of his admirers. Don't look for Obama to summarily pull the troops out of Iraq if he is elected. It amuses me to no end how many bloggers out here are totally cynical when it comes to Hillary but are just as intensely credulous when the topic of Obama arises. As I wrote last week, I have real estate on Mare Imbrium and in the swampiest parts of the Everglades to sell to you people.

June 2, 2008 5:36 PM

Sirhc said:

Blackton, I was discussing that very point with my girlfriend last night.  How different this race would have been if Edwards had soldiered on.  

When Edwards was in the race and BHO was winning, HRC was toast.  When he left the race, she was still toast, but she decided to become John Edwards - rich, working-class hero.  Combine that with a little help from BHO in San Francisco of all places, her white-is-alright campaign in Ohio and Pennsylvania and Woman-have-been-denied-since-Stanton rhetoric (ignoring Jim Crow and reality) and then you have "momentum."

June 2, 2008 5:40 PM

teplukhin2you said:

This is the inevitable result of our party's obsession with race and gender-based identity-group politics. It's not impossible that the Repubs would have a bitterly contested and equally divided party, but their divisions would be along ideological lines, not tribal ones.

One day, some day, our party will get beyond this curse and start putting forth leaders whose claim to prominence owes *solely* to their record of achievement in public life. Until then, we remain the Shoot Yourself In the Foot Party, the one determined to undermine itself every four years and p*ss away our overwhelming advantage on economics.

June 2, 2008 5:52 PM

Nippers said:

LR,

With all due respect, that real estate line was a worn-out hand-me-down of a witticism the first time you untucked it from your sleeve.

I'd be happy to post a list of the reasons I switched my allegiances to Obama. I did so after much reading and deliberation. No, I don't think he will summarily pull the troops out of Iraq. I expect him to do what Samantha Powers said he would do, which is frankly, what any responsible commander-in-chief would do: reassess the situation upon gaining the White House and the security clearances the office of the presidency confers.

Krugman's claim is based almost entirely on health care policy, and even there his analysis is questionable. Obama is less in thrall to teachers' unions than Clinton is, but frankly I'm not sure that makes him less progressive, given how urgently the teaching profession needs to be reformed. I prefer his foreign policy to hers. I prefer his environmental policy to hers. I prefer his education policy to hers. And I'm prepared to explain why.

June 2, 2008 5:58 PM

liberal reformer said:

This is exactly right. The policy differences are small enough between the two candidates and so the fault lines were laid down conforming to identity politics. There is a good deal of tribalism involved here and as ever, tribalists on both sides cannot see their own contributions. Excellent post, Josh. That is why you are a staff writer at TNR and most of the bloggers here are, well, just bloggers. May I suggest Steam by Peter Gabriel (Us) as the theme song for both sides?

June 2, 2008 6:03 PM

liberal reformer said:

Nippers: It doesn't appear that David Sedaris helps with your material, with all due respect. You prefer Obama's rhetoric; what he will do if elected might be something else entirely when it comes to major issues. I am always amazed how sophisticated observers are "taken by surprise" by the anfractuous twists and turns of political events. You expect it from the unsophistcates.

June 2, 2008 6:07 PM

teplukhin2you said:

fwiw I voted for Obama, but it wasn't because of his identity, his melanin, or any reason other than I thought he'd make for a less distracted president than (the) Clinton(s).

June 2, 2008 6:11 PM

roidubouloi said:

Patashnik,

In what century on what planet has the presidential election ever been decided based "mpartial judgments of policy proposals?"  And why should it be considering that the correlation between policy proposals in the course of election campaigns and policy enacted into law is so low?

More silliness.  It would be much more interesting to write about why these primaries have generated so much emotion, the generational issue, the gender and race politics, etc., and what they portend for the future than to opine that they should not have.

June 2, 2008 6:14 PM

esmense said:

Oh for goodness sakes. Obama's campaign has been intentionally divisive. He has consistently exploited generational, gender, racial and class divisions in his tactics and his appeal for "change" -- which has not meant change from the destruction policies of the opposition party, but, to a much greater extent, change in the relative power of both leaders and constituent groups in his own party based on demographics; age, gender, race, class, region, etc.

The Obama "movement" has been, in fact, more critical of the former Clinton administration, working class Democrats, Hispanics and an older generation of feminists, than of the conservative movement and its decades long dominance of national politics. As an Obama supporter, you may be in agreement with his criticism of his own party; including both its most successful recent leaders and some large numbers of its traditional constituencies. And you may believe that Obama is putting together a "new" coalition that will out-number and destroy the power of these other and/or older constituent groups. But, if you are honest you must admit that such a strategy -- that seeks to undermine the participation and representation of some Democratic constituencies in order to attract a new coalition (dominated by younger voters, affluent liberals, neo liberals and socially liberal libertarians, independent white men, moderate Republicans) IS in fact divisive. And can't be otherwise. You can't assert, as the Obama campaign and "movement" have done over the last 6 months, that the Clintons' are corrupt, divisive and racist, that the last Democratic administration was ineffective and is as complicit in the problems we face today as the Bush administration, that the Democratic working class is over-whelmingly ignorant, racist and incapable of understanding its own best interest, that older voters are out of touch and that serving their political interest is incompatible with the best interests of younger voters, and that an entire generation of women activists (who have unfailingly supported the Democratic party, civil rights and progressive causes) are a problem for the party rather than a strength, etc., without dividing the party.

Obama supporters have to make up their mind. Do they have enough confidence in their "new" coalition and its electoral strength to actually go ahead, and as the logic of their campaign message requries, continue to try to throw these "old" constituencies, that they have stated and appear to believe are destructive to the party and incompatible with "change," out of the party or not?

What they can't logically or reasonably do is to to campaign AGAINST and scapegoat these people and then decry the emotions invoked or the inevitable divisions they have intentionally exploited.

Nor can they, if they genuine believe these groups are obstacles to progress, ask for or expect their help in November.

It's like telling someone, "please, come nearer, come nearer, so I can cut off your head."

June 2, 2008 6:17 PM

teplukhin2you said:

actually, lib, tribalism is the route to riches in the New Media Environment. Stock in trade of the political blogosphere. Josh's type are a vanishing breed.

June 2, 2008 6:19 PM

roidubouloi said:

Im with rhubarbs, natch. I see a vast gulf between Hillary's claim to be "of the left" and her performance in office.  On any given big issue, she is more likely to vote with the Republicans than the Demcocrats.  If I believed for a moment that she were committed to the values of the Democratic party, I might even have been willing to support her despite some distasteful personal behavior.  But I don't, and every day she has campaigned has given me more evidence that the principles I associate with the Democratic party have nothing whatsoever to do with Hillary Clinton.

June 2, 2008 6:23 PM

dpinkert said:

Patashnik,

Surely you recognize that the President has much greater authority over foreign affairs/national security policy than over domestic policy.  While it is true that there can be transactional dealings concerning foreign policy during Presidential campaigns, voters -- for the most part -- must look to clues about character, temperament, and judgment in deciding how a candidate might conduct affairs of state as President.  

June 2, 2008 6:34 PM

roidubouloi said:

I have confidence esmense.  You can vote for McCain without any worries.

June 2, 2008 7:05 PM

liberal reformer said:

Telplukhin2you: Right you are.

June 2, 2008 7:21 PM

scire said:

"and before you know it you have irate activists traveling thousands of miles to Washington in passionate opposition to the fair and legitimate nomination of a candidate whose views they agree with. "

Exactly so. And the fervor is whipped up by the candidate.

I was tired weeks ago.

The infinite energy of the Clintons amazes me, especially because it feeds off negativity. Negativy is such a drain for me, that I can only engage in it for short bursts. I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that somebody can go on and on and on like this.

June 2, 2008 8:48 PM

Nippers said:

Yes, LR, I am no David Sedaris. It's hard to imagine what a Sedaris comment here would read like. It's not exactly a forum for the humorous personal anecdote.

In all sincerity, I do respect your opinion, but I'm finding your particular mixture of complaint (Obama supporters should be more civil) and derision (Obama supporters are gullible naifs) to be a touch hypocritical. I think you've been misled by the distorting mirror of the blogosphere which amplifies the most strident voices and--tep's right--encourages tribalism. Making sweeping, condescending characterizations about Obama supporters, thought, does little to help. I know what it is to be disappointed by a presidential candidate. The first vote I cast in a presidential race was for Bill Clinton in 1992.

Of course I cannot foresee what an Obama presidency would be like, but neither can any voter foresee what any candidate's presidency will be like. Upon what besides a candidate's policies, character, record, and rhetoric is one supposed to base one's decision? Along with my reasons for preferring Obama, I could list my reservations about his candidacy, beginning with his dearth of executive experience. The word "vote" comes from the Latin for prayer (hence, votive, votary), and that's all any vote ever is. A wish and a prayer.

June 2, 2008 8:56 PM

liberal reformer said:

Nippers: I have not made any sweeping references to Obama supporters on this website. The rainbow references are only to bloggers on this site. My close friend who I have known ever since high school is an Obama supporter, a very judicious and urbane and civil one, unlike any number here. So is my long-time friend who I have coffee with thrice weekly. He is as nice and as civil as they come. My professor of logic, philsosophy, religion and ethics from college who has been a friend since those days is also an Obama backer. Again, a highly intelligent and civil person. You and many others remind of hometown fans of team X and sport Y. You look  the other way when someone on your team keeps an opposition member in the groin but you are screaming in high fashion when someone merely challenges your side's fairness. Old old story, as old as talking hominid life-forms.

June 2, 2008 9:22 PM

liberal reformer said:

Errata: My first sentence should read "I I have not made any sweeping references to Obama supporters outside this website".

June 2, 2008 9:46 PM

Nippers said:

LR,

Not sweeping then. Feather dustering, perhaps? And was I really screaming--in high fashion or low? I thought I was taking exception. Please point out where, so I can next time I'll sense when I'm raising my voice.

I will concede that I myself have probably spent too much time this election cycle looking into the distorting mirror of the blogosphere where charges of "kool-aid drinking" and "messianism" have been repeated ad nauseum in criticisms of Obama supporters.

Not that I expect you to read and remember every post on every blog, but for the record I do on occasion defend Hillary. Not long ago I defended her own equivocal defense of Spitzer's immigrant i.d. policy. As your own posts suggest, she's grown harder and harder to defend, or even sympathize with. Nonetheless last night when a Clinton supporter explained why he could not vote for Obama, I began my reply by praising the content and tenor of his post.

I likewise have both Clinton and Obama supporters among my friends, as well as a few Republicans. You know what I'd like? I'd like these boards to resemble that conversation you describe--the one taking place over coffee.

June 2, 2008 10:17 PM

Eos said:

esmense,

Your post is one of the best peices of analysis that I have read in this entire campaign. It explains to me my own responses and political feelings more clearly than I could have explained them myself. It clarifies for me why I, and so many lberal democrats that I know, are so angry and so unwilling to vote for Obama in this election.

June 2, 2008 10:43 PM

liberal reformer said:

Nippers: Well said, my man.

June 2, 2008 10:59 PM

Nippers said:

Eos, esmene,

I fear our party needs to go through the political equivalent of couples therapy, the gulf of perception is so great. Esmene, there is no doubt truth to the notion that the Obama campaign has played to his tactical demographic strengths in each primary--by turning out the college vote, for instance--but the charge is equally true of the Clinton campaign, just as both campaigns played to their respective geographic strengths. In his record and his rhetoric, Obama certainly has not written off feminists and older voters and hispanics and the white working class. Millions of voters in those demographics voted for him, and in certain states he received more votes from those demographic groups than Clinton did. (Oregon and Wisconsin's white working class matters too!)

As for your allegation that "his appeal for 'change' . . .has not meant change from the destruction policies of the opposition party, but, to a much greater extent, change in the relative power of both leaders and constituent groups in his own party," I can only tell you that foremost among my initial reasons for defecting from Clinton to Obama was her deference to the Bush Administration's foreign policy.

On domestic policy, Clinton and Obama are about as close as Democrats get, with a few notable exceptions. Tell me you prefer her health policy to his, and I'll understand, though in reply I might explain to you why I prefer both his education policy and gas policy to hers. But the idea that he is a traitor to his party and a cause for secession--well, it makes no more sense to me than when Obama supporters say they'd sooner vote for McCain than Hillary.

Please at least keep an open mind about Obama. The party needs you.

June 2, 2008 11:30 PM

cthulhu2008 said:

You don't think the years of teaching identity politics in schools has something to do with it?

You would'nt believe the nonsense I heard in college about the awesomeness of a post structuralist ultra racist world where everyone should base their opinions on some identity and reject the obsolete logic of the Enlightenment.

Thankfully for my mind I ignored such drivel and became a libertarian embracing universalism, but I suspect many were pulled into the obscene racism of postmodern thought in college and hold it to this day. It even infects the media who are especially influenced by the academy...

June 3, 2008 12:12 AM

jmkerr said:

Give me a break. The bloggers at TNR, American Prospect, The Atlantic, and everywhere else have posted obsessively about this election for six months, with the vast majority of those posts being directed against Clinton. And suddenly, you're saying that hey, there's not much difference between the two candidates? What an unimaginable mountain of horseshit.

Clearly, the voters see a substantive difference between the two candidates. It's the same differences that all the liberal sites have obsessed about for months now. Those differences may send a third or more of Democrats into the voting booths selecting McCain.

Cope.

www.dontbeagooddemocrat.com

June 3, 2008 12:34 AM

emigdio said:

Sorry but "reached a crescendo" is a non-sense phrase. "Crescendo" means "growing" in Italian and "gradually getting louder" in English. You can't "reach a crescendo" any more than you can "reach an augmenting."

June 3, 2008 2:33 AM

cbustard said:

emigido reminds us why pundits can't sing. You don't "reach a crescendo." You reach a climax. The crescendo is the act of reaching. You may, however, "come to a crescendo," i.e., get to a point where the volume increases.

June 3, 2008 8:57 AM

esmense said:

Nippers --

Obama's strategy has always been based in demographics and reliant on conflict and division (as outlined in the campaign's November memo) and at odds with his lofty rhetoric. (This jarring inconsistency has in fact been the campaign's great weakness and the cause of much resentment among many voters). I say this not as a Clinton partisan or because I dislike Obama personally -- but as a marketing professional who pays more attention to strategy and campaign tactics than to speeches, promises and personalities.

If you think about it, you will realize that Obama's message of "change" and "unity" is a conflicted one. You can't have change, which requires developing dichotomies of good and evil, past and future, old and new, heroes and monsters, "in" groups and "out," etc., without first creating division. Change is, in reality, the exact opposite of "unity." And Obama's "unity" message has, in fact, been intended and used as more or a rebuke and criticism (of certain players and elements in the party) than a promise or invitation. He hasn't used "unity" to invite people in -- he has used it to reassure, certain groups, his most likely partisans, that they are "in," that is; different and better than others.

As for "the gulf in perception" you see -- I suggest you join JMKerr in studying the work of the writers and "The bloggers at TNR, American Prospect, The Atlantic, and everywhere else have posted obsessively about this election for six months."  Also the comments made to such articles and blog posts. If you do so with an open mind, unwilling to see either candidate as monster or saint, I think you will have to agree that the major message pushed from the Obama side is, as I stated earlier; that the Clintons' are corrupt, divisive and racist, that the last Democratic administration was ineffective and is as complicit in the problems we face today as the Bush administration, that the Democratic working class is over-whelmingly ignorant, racist and incapable of understanding its own best interest, that older voters are out of touch and that serving their political interest is incompatible with the best interests of younger voters, and that an entire generation of women activists (who have unfailingly supported the Democratic party, civil rights and progressive causes) are a problem for the party rather than a strength, etc., without dividing the party.

Of course, these are not the things Obama says in his major speeches. But they are the things that the campaign disseminates in other ways; through the writings of supporters in the media, through surrogates, through "in" jokes and statements made to specific supporter groups, etc. (Obama has never suggested in a major, nationally broadcast speech, for instance, that white politicians especially the Clintons, consistently "bamboozle and hoodwink' black voters, but he used this extremely divisive statement routinely in his speeches to primarily black audiences in primary states with large percentages of African American voters).  The fact that so many of his supporters, those who post here on TNR, for instance, many in this thread, make these same points, in one version or another, over and over and over again, demonstrates the effectiveness of the campaign in getting its divisive message out, and thereby effectively exploiting class, gender, generational, racial and regional prejudices, misunderstandings and resentments.

The problem for the campaign now is this; how do you make those you have been demonizing vote for you? And, how do you make those who have come to hate those you've posited as demons accept the fact that they are, in fact, merely constituents with legitimate, although perhaps different,  interests who equally deserve a right to fair representation?

June 3, 2008 9:19 AM

Nippers said:

esmense,

You write: "If you think about it, you will realize that Obama's message of 'change' and 'unity' is a conflicted one. You can't have change, which requires developing dichotomies of good and evil, past and future, old and new, heroes and monsters, 'in' groups and 'out,' etc., without first creating division. Change is, in reality, the exact opposite of 'unity.'"

"Change" is not the opposite of "unity" if what you are trying to change is divisiveness. I see plenty of reasons to be skeptical about Obama's chance of actually governing as a "post-partisan" president, but as a simple matter of logic, his message is not conflicted. If you are a voter who feels--rightly or no--that America has been sundered by internecine culture wars and racial strife and Rovian attack politics, then a candidate offering conciliation is also necessarily offering change.

Ironically, the campaign that Obama's most resembles is the one Bill Clinton ran in 1992. You'll remember that back then Clinton too challenged party elders and Democratic constituencies. That's what the DNC was all about.

I certainly have read hotheaded, hair-trigger posts by Obama supporters, and I'll even concede that "bamboozle and hoodwink" may have been culturally coded speech. But I think if one attempts to regard the many-tentacled, thousand-eyed organism known as the Media with, as you say, "an open mind, unwilling to see either candidate as a monster or saint," you will also see at least as much demonizing of Democratic constituencies (African Americans are casting a tribal vote, the educated are effeminate elites, the youth are glassy-eyed cultists) coming from the Clinton camp, and in my assessment you will see even more. The truth is attempting to regard the media with the sort of objectivity you call for requires more omniscience than any one of us possesses. Like a flea trying to picture an elephant.

It seems to me that any fair-minded person would acknowledge that there have been distortions and divisive tactics on both sides--certainly by the supporters of both sides. We may disagree about the apportionment of bias. But in the end I still see absolutely no reason for any thinking Democrat or progressive or independent to vote for McCain.

I started out this primary wanting to vote for the Democrat most likely to win. I worried that Hillary was too polarizing a figure, the GOP's dream opponent. I worried that Obama was too inexperienced. I still have that worry about Obama, and if Hillary were the nominee, I'd still have my old worries about her. But his campaign did far more to allay my worries about him than hers did to allay my worries about hers, and now it's time for the general.

June 3, 2008 10:01 AM

Nippers said:

Correction: Not "That's what the DNC was all about," but "That's what the DLC was all about."

June 3, 2008 10:11 AM

bigfish said:

"And suddenly, you're saying that hey, there's not much difference between the two candidates? What an unimaginable mountain of horseshit."

Jmkerr, you would be right...if that's what Josh said.  The way I read his words, he's saying that, in terms of policy proposals, there isn't a whole lot different between Hillary and Barack (with exceptions like the gas tax, some housing proposals, a bit of healthcare).  Therefore, the majority of what will be written to contrast the two candidates will focus on issues other than the issues, like demography, tactics, and the like.

The tipping point for me was her opportunistic change-of-mind over Michigan and Florida.  Her position now would be respectable if she held it from the beginning, but the fact is that she didn't.  Nobody raised a stink about those two states' votes "counting" until the votes were already over and Clinton "won."  That was the point where I started to become not just pro-Obama, but also anti-Clinton.

What sealed it for me was when Clinton came out in favor of McCain's gas tax holiday.  When I first heard about McCain's idea (not knowing Obama's or Clinton's position), I knew it was a bad idea.  I'm no economist (as my only acheivement in the field is getting a 5 on my High School Econ AP test), but I knew it was a bad idea and pure pandering that would only give money from the government to the oil companies.  Then Clinton came out in favor and said she didn't want to throw her lot in with "experts."  Ignorance is one thing, but willful ignorance is quite another, and that jab was an insult to experts of all kinds.  My toilet overflows, but I'm not going to trust a plumber's advice.  I want to build a house, but am going to pour the foundation myself.  My leg hurts, so I'm going to go get some medication I saw on TV instead of asking a doctor.

So it was her tactics, not her positions or supporters, that turned me away from Clinton.  The way she ran her campaign is miles away from Obama.  Lord knows he hasn't been perfect either, but his campaign has been far better in my opinion.

June 3, 2008 10:28 AM

jkolic said:

To steer the discussion back to the question posed in the title of this blog - Yes, it is bad that the demography is destiny, insofar as it indicates the mindless propensity of voters to reecho opinions typically voiced by those from their station in life, making no effort at forming their own policy judgments. But is the case really such? I would argue, not necessarily, since members of different demographic groups typically share certain experiences that inevitably - and not always irrationally - color their perspective on politics. Where a significant amount of common ground exists, people will tend to vote alike. Nothing particularly discouraging about that.

Moreover, I think Josh is right is asserting that no significant policy differences exist between two Dem primary candidates. Identity politics, generally inevitable in the context of the Democratic party contests, is bound to take on particular importance in such a situation. It may be frustrating for the candidates to deal with the difficult feat of attracting members of groups inclined to be unsupportive of their presidential bid, but it does make sense and should not be  a cause for hand-wringing. At any rate, I would worry more about those who vote Dem/Republican simply because their parents do - a powerful and ever-present trend. I should think far more mindlessness can be found there than anywhere else...

June 3, 2008 11:39 AM

esmense said:

Nipper --

"(African Americans are casting a tribal vote, the educated are effeminate elites, the youth are glassy-eyed cultists)"

I have seen such inappropriate and defensive arguments made in comments online. I have NEVER seen such points made by Clinton supporters and surrogates in editorials or articles in mainstream media and political journals, in commentary on the cable political shows, etc. One union guy in Ohio, I think, made a comment about latte sippers at a Clinton event. This was a sad and trite indication of long-standing resentments and traditional class divisions in the party  -- but such talk has never been a part of the Clinton storyline as presented through its surrogates in the campaign and the media.

Most people who talk about the "divisiveness" of the Clinton campaign are repeating Obama campaign talking points rather than responding to the Clinton campaign's actual tactics and real life events.

June 3, 2008 11:53 AM

ironyroad said:

esmense writes:  "If you think about it, you will realize that Obama's message of 'change' and 'unity' is a conflicted one. You can't have change, which requires developing dichotomies of good and evil, past and future, old and new, heroes and monsters, 'in' groups and 'out,' etc., without first creating division. Change is, in reality, the exact opposite of 'unity.'"

This has some very odd implications.  Firstly, if you would think about it again, you'd realize that all political messages are conflicted ones, because it's not possible to offer a policies or postures that meet all needs and demands without one crowding the space of the other, to some degree at least.  We the electorate are conflicted because we're individual human beings.  It's not the message, or politics, it's us.  We're not really certain if we want more safety because it restricts freedoms we're used to, or if we want a new mall outside town because it puts more fields and trees under concrete, or if we want the truth because it can be painful, and so on.

Secondly, you can of course have change without good/evil -- not every political development needs that binary pair and there's no requirement to slide into metaphysics or theology.  Past/future, however, is very much required for campaigns that want to change stuff, and inevitably a dose of heroes/monsters too, but that's really for the GE and a reasonably healthy polity will understand the fictive nature of the characters.  "In/out" is unclear to me, except that some politics is based on inclusivity and others on exclusivity.  Certainly, John McCain would like to bring a more inclusive philosophy into his campaign (e.g. regarding immigration) but the Republican base squeals with fury when he gestures in that direction.

Thirdly, the natural apposition would be change/stasis and unity/disunity.  These can be tweaked in various ways, I agree, and something could take the place of, say, "disunity" that gave that binary a different set of options, but your interpretation of Obama's "change" meme as being in and of itself divisive (directly opposed to unifying) seems at least a little screwy and at most a deliberate misreading of the term.  If what you say holds, then no campaign could ever advance with a program of reversing bad policy.  After all, wasn't FDR's New Deal just a nasty divisive trick, making the Democrats the "new" and Hoover and the Republicans the "old"?

Life is conflictual, and it's the job of political leaders to work around that.

June 3, 2008 12:39 PM

Nippers said:

esmense,

This is what I mean by a gulf of perception. Read Eve Fairbanks's dispatch from over the weekend. Or spend some time at Taylor Marsh's blog. Or do a little googling. Examples of such comments from Clinton supporters abound.

There is for instance this exemplary post on MyDD:

"He is un-American. He wants to have tea and cakes with the worlds worst dictators. He never learned the words to the pledge of allegiance - though rumor has it he can recite it backwards."

Or this one, also from an avowed Clinton supporter on MyDD:

"why can't Barack Hussein Obama win anyone other than college kids, elites and blacks? Is blacks voting for one of their own a surprise? Why can't he win states Dems can hope to carry, instead of Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming?"

Or this far more typical one from Crooks and Liars:

"When I was at the caucus, I found the Obama kids a little - not creepy - but silly."

The variations on the cult of kids are numberless, as in:

"time to stop drinking the kool-aid, kids"

And then there's the effeminacy, as in this post condemning NARAL's endorsement of Obama, in which the commenter channels James Carville (an advisor to the campaign):

"Hillary need to give Obama a testicle so they both will have two"

Or how about the more euphemistic post titled

"The Brie, Chablis, and Misogyny of the Obama cult"

"brie" and "chablis" here being code for unAmerican, upper class, and effete.

A small dip from the bogs of Obamaphobia, which I hope never to visit again.

June 3, 2008 1:09 PM

jmkerr said:

"The way I read his words, he's saying that, in terms of policy proposals, there isn't a whole lot different between Hillary and Barack "

But as I pointed out, and you confirmed, Obama's supporters found HUGE differences between Clinton and Obama, and pushed him incessantly over here.

Now, suddenly, when it's advantageous for their side to bring in the Clinton supporters, there's "no substantive difference" and they're all scratching their heads at this bizarre recalcitrance.

It's a monumental lie. You yourself confirm you see differences. Can't you realize that Clinton supporters have their own list?

Here's a list of  differences.

--Obama has done absolutely nothing his entire life except win elections and do nothing once he gets the job. (you can see cites for that here: dontbeagooddemocrat.com/000001.html) Clinton hasn't always performed well, but she's done more than just get elected and look around for the next job. She's had her failures, but at least she has a record of putting her ideas forward, working for them, and dealing with opposition. Obama never did that much.

--Obama is well left of center. He has recent ties with communist groups in Chicago (dontbeagooddemocrat.com/000015.html). The policies he espoused in the mid90s were standard left of center nonsense that he could get away with in his little Chicago cocoon. He's never changed his views; he simply denies they exist. Never mind his ongoing associations with Wright, Pfleger, and the rest of the "urban left" that is well out of touch with the Democratic (much less American) mainstream. Clinton, who almost certainly had a minor affinity with the far left back in the 60s, has manifestly dropped those goals for a more centrist agenda, and has for nearly 20 years.

--In order to cover up his absolute lack of accomplishments, Obama does one of two things. First, he looks for patrons who will give him jobs despite having done nothing, and second, he will horn in on press conferences pretending he was involved. (see the above link for documentation). I'm not talking about campaign lies, which everyone has. I'm talking about a systematic attempt to pretend he's involved in issues when he had nothing to do with them. For example, the much vaunted video-taped recording legislation wasn't his idea at all. Like all his other "legislative accomplishments", they were appropriated from other people by Emil Jones, his longtime pal.

--Financially, Obama is attempting to portray himself as "regular people" when in fact, his finances are incredibly shaky. (dontbeagooddemocrat.com/000010.html). Where did he get the money for his $110K down payment on his first condo? What happened to his first six figure book deal advance when he failed to deliver a book? Where's the evidence that they were actually paying off student loans? Finally, both Obamas pretend that they were struggling to pay off school loans when they were actually broke because he put $20K on credit cards to run for Congress. Again, this isn't about Clinton's own financial issues--the point here is that Obama is *running* on his financial background, and it's a lie. Moreover, given his utter paucity of actual achievement, his financial improprieties are all the more concerning.

--Obama regularly associates with, and is supported by, people who despise America. Moreover, he comes from the wing of the party that doesn't think much of Americans who don't think like them. How many bloggers said openly that Jeremiah Wright was correct, that America is a horrible place, that the downside was that the "low information" Americans might find this offensive? Amazingly, Obama and his supporters actually despise the people whose votes they want.  Clinton, on the other hand, has learned through years of experience that many, many Democrats actually love their country and are turned off by the sort of attacks you find regularly in The Atlantic, Prospect, and The Nation.

--Obama's memoir is full of lies.  Flat out lies, not omissions. He lies about his own behavior, he lies about his jobs, he lies about his beliefs.

--Finally, given all the above information, there's the fact that Obama wants people to believe that everything in his history is irrelevant. We are supposed to believe what he says *now*. We are to assume he's a great leader, a moderate, a bipartisan model, a national security expert, a (here's the big laugh) "postracial" candidate who doesn't rely on race--all based not on evidence, of which there is none, but his word.

--Oh, and his word? Worthless. Just ask the many people who've made the mistake of working with him in the past. Loyalty? Again, much worse than Clinton, who blows hot and cold on the subject. But again, Clinton has achievements and a full picture. Obama's got nothing.

There you go. These reasons might not involve policy, but they involve character, which is a substantive issue, "substantive" is one word that can never be used about Obama, his character, or his ideas--and I don't mean the cut and paste jobs on his website.

I don't agree with McCain on much, but he's got infinitely more integrity and principles, showing Obama up as the cheap empty suit that he is. I'd much rather have a president who I know will do what he thinks is best than a blank page who puts "best for the country" well behind what's best for him.

June 3, 2008 2:04 PM

ironyroad said:

So, your point is . . . ?  That the people who dislike Obama so much that they'll vote for McCain in November are going to vote for McCain in November?

We'll see what happens.  It's a long way away.

Oh yes -- any actual evidence for your assertion that Obama doesn't love his country as much as you?  Me, I ain't seen it.

June 3, 2008 2:27 PM

butchie b said:

Read it again, irony.  He said Obama is supported by people, not that Obama himself doesn't love his country.  Which I believe he does.  But hanging around with folks like Reczko, Wright and Pfleger don't give people warm fuzzies about his alleged "good judgment."

I think most Clinton supporters will convince themselves over the next 6 months that Obama would be preferable to McCain.  But I hope I'm wrong.

June 3, 2008 3:28 PM

GSpinks said:

*sigh* www.dontbeagooddemocrat.com ... i guess it is true that some people will believe whatever they want, regardless of the evidence on the table...

"in interview after interview, none of his friends and acquaintances from his past can recall a single opinion he ever expressed. "

Except that this is a bold faced lie: ap.google.com/.../ALeqM5j7Vo3wGm7A778Uhj_sgNWcYUMk_QD90M92U81

"he won his first political office by using a procedural strategy to knock a political ally and sponsor out of the race."

This actually means that Obama is one to do his homework and be aware of the laws; it is the law that the signatures required for being added to the ballot have to be valid signatures, and Obama used appropriate legal challenges to those signatures. So, basically, you're deriding Obama for following the law, and using the law to his advantage. Bull Shit.

"Dissatisfied with the size of house he could buy with $1.3 million, he  collaborated with Tony Rezko to rig a purchase for a much larger $1.9 million mansion."

Again an outright lie, this time due to the use of "rig a purchase". Even the link provided to a MSNBC news story regarding the issue indicates that all financials activities were legal and above-board, and Obama did not receive a special discount on the property.

"while Obama now claims that Jeremiah Wright was "just" his pastor, the incendiary preacher was actually Obama's "sounding board" and personal spiritual adviser."

For those secularists who've never had an actual pastor, "sounding board" and "spiritual advisor" are both default for the job description "just pastor". As for Spiritual Advisor, this one has already been debunked here several times, and Wright and Obama have both said repeatedly that there was no spiritual advising involved.

"Given his own autobiography and contemporaneous reporting, he is denying reality when he says that he was not aware of Jeremiah Wright's views."

Discussed and debunked during the PA debate debacle.

I can't go on, its too painful.

June 3, 2008 3:32 PM

ironyroad said:

As far as I know, butchie, Jeremiah Wright was a Marine and Navy medic, and is therefore someone who has contributed the main piece of evidence -- military service -- that people who didn't serve are always demanding to review someone else's patriotic credentials.  Oh I forgot -- you have to serve in the military AND be a Republican to count as a patriot.  Sorry.

June 3, 2008 4:44 PM

GSpinks said:

irony, don't forget that Wright is one of those negros, so he's only 3/5 of a person, and that makes him no better than 3/5ths of a patriot. This 60% is then further reduced by being religious and yet neither a republican nor a white anglo-saxon-protestant.

*puke*

June 3, 2008 5:09 PM

Nippers said:

yes, jmkerr, Obama supporters are the ones who have a shaky acquaintance with reality and an excess of credulity.

There sure is a whole lot of stuff on this here internet, isn't there?

June 4, 2008 11:43 PM