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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
26.05.2008
How the VP Debate Misses the Mark

In my view, the veepstakes frenzy currently descending upon us focuses on entirely the wrong set of questions. The debate is usually cast in terms of who can help win the election in November. I'll have more on this in a piece that will be on the website later this week, but the evidence indicates that running-mate selections usually have zero impact on election outcomes, even in the running mate's home state. (Recent polling data bear this out--Kansans are actually slightly less likely to vote for Obama if he puts Kathleen Sebelius on the ticket, and pairing him with Ed Rendell has seems to have basically no effect in Pennsylvania.) As long as you pick someone with a baseline level of competence and credibility and with no skeletons in his closet, you're probably not going to change things much, electorally. In the same vein, while there's an understandable desire on the part of pundits to see Jim Webb on the ticket because it would be, in Daniel Larison's words, "sociologically fun," in and of itself that's not a great reason to choose someone either.

But it also surprises me how little regard some people have for the vice presidency. I've heard people argue against Webb, Chris Dodd, and Evan Bayh on the grounds that their selection would jeopardize a safe Democratic Senate seat. This isn't a totally irrelevant consideration, but it should still be way down there on the priority list. There are a hundred senators, and seats change hands relatively frequently.

By contrast, a vice-presidential nominee is somebody who (in addition, of course, to being potentially a heartbeat away from the presidency) will instantly become one of the four or five most recognizable figures in the party, and will likely be a frontrunner for the presidential nomination at some point in the future. It's somebody who, with any luck, will be popular enough to campaign with and raise money for candidates across the country for years to come. And yet the conversation hardly focuses on this at all. One of the most important things a party does is cultivate talent for the future, and selecting a vice presidential nominee is absolutely critical in that regard. It's like deciding what to do with the top pick in the NFL Draft. Are you going to wind up with a Peyton Manning, or a Tim Couch? I can give you three reasons why the GOP presidential field was so weak this year: Dick Cheney, Jack Kemp, Dan Quayle.

Granted, there are other factors to consider--you want somebody who has a good working relationship with the presidential nominee, and preferably someone who can help take the lead in shaping policy in a few key areas of expertise. (Ideally, of course, not someone who will wind up effectively running the entire federal government.) But far and away the most important question is: Is this somebody you want closely identified with your party brand for the next two decades? Anyone trying to make the case for selecting a particular running mate should be prepared to explain why the party will benefit if that person becomes, overnight, one of its biggest names.

I'm not totally opposed to the idea of an Obama–Clinton ticket, but this strikes me as one of the main arguments against it. Hillary is already a major figure on the national stage; she will continue to be very influential regardless of whether she's the veep nominee. There is no shortage of promising prospects who could achieve much if given that level of stature--why pass up the opportunity to put one of your rising stars in that position?

--Josh Patashnik 

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:12 PM with 25 comment(s)

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liberal reformer said:

This is a very perceptive post, Josh. It is amazing how many people out here think that the number 2 man adds a substantial electoral heft to the ticket. I myself frequently speak of ticket-balancing but only in commenting on who I think might be chosen because this such a traditional consideration. You are right, too, that the veep selection automatically is catapulted into the top rank of the party upon his being chosen.

May 26, 2008 9:41 PM

epicciuto said:

Josh, great point. Never thought of it quite like that!

May 26, 2008 9:43 PM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

Some of the polling data out there seems to suggest that adding Edwards to the ticket give Obama a real boost in certain states, presumably because his message of fighting poverty resonates with many voters.

Any thoughts on that?  I will try to find the polling data and post it.

May 26, 2008 9:50 PM

primwallflow said:

This was exactly my argument to friends back in November for why Hillary ought to take Obama as her VP for what then looked like an inevitable Clinton candidacy. It seemed that Obama's inexperience was going to be his fatal flaw, so why not GIVE him the relevant experience over 4 or 8 years and thereby invest in the next generation of Democratic leadership for 2016?

Even then, I didn't believe Hillary would take my advice, but I'm not sure I seriously considered a scenario where it would be MOOT advice.

May 26, 2008 10:15 PM

roidubouloi said:

I'd like to see some data to support the claim that the VP choice has no electoral impact either by constituency or geography, but, if that is the case, it would still be better to choose a good campaigner who can broadly assist the campaign.  Someone who can say the things that the presidential candidate cannot.

May 26, 2008 10:17 PM

edhenig said:

On another thread a few days ago Naomi commented thus:

Everyone but Strickland is a shot in the dark.  Strickland gives us 20, precious rock-solid electoral votes.  Don't think so?  Check the record. In the post-war era, VP nominees that are at least a senator or governor have carried their homes states in 24 of 27 cases.  The only ones that failed were Henry Cabot Lodge in 1960, Lloyd Bentsen in 1988, and, you guessed it, John Edwards in 2004.  And Lodge and Bentsen at least had the excuse that the top of the ticket on the other side was also from their home state (Kennedy in Lodge's case, and Bush Senior in Bentsen's case).

So, if you exclude Lodge and Bentsen, it's VP nominees 24-1 in bringing along the home folks.  Those 20 Ohio EVs would just about clinch it for Obama.

Either Josh is wrong or the data provided by Naomi is wrong.  I eagerly await Josh's explanation.

May 26, 2008 10:22 PM

kgrant1054 said:

In light of Josh's thoughts about tapping somebody for a future run, someone with no small amount of talent, and one to help shape policy, I have the perfect choice.

Russ Feingold.

Oh, I know, I am such a homer (lived in Wisconsin for 20 years, now live in Deep South Texas, but the old loyalites die hard).  Nonetheless, Feingold's astute progressive take on the role and function of the government would be precisely the antidote necessary to the last eight years of rampant foolishness.  He has plenty of experience, knows what it means to remain connected to the voters, and actually knows how to get legislation passed.

May 26, 2008 10:26 PM

AlanSP said:

edhenig,

The data provided by Naomi is wrong.  I posted this in the other thread in response to her analysis, but I'll copy it here:

A few problems with this analysis.  First, it's factually incorrect.  VPs that were a senator or governor in their home state are 16-6 in their home states, 16-4 if you exclude Lodge and Bentsen.  In addition to the three home-state losers you mentioned, Earl Warren lost California in '48, Estes Kefauver lost Tennessee in '56, and Spiro Agnew lost Maryland in '68.  I'm not sure where you're getting the 27 total.  If you're including Bush 1 and Cheney, neither was ever senator or governor (although Representative from Wyoming is a statewide race, so it's not all that different from being senator in terms of having a high profile in that state).

The second problem is that you're implying that correlation implies causation.  It doesn't.  Many VP candidates have come from states that are already safely in their party's column.  LBJ would have won Minnesota with or without Humphrey, just like Gore would have won Connecticut with or without Lieberman.  If you look at races where the home state VP candidate's party won by single digits (i.e. those where the VP candidate might plausibly have made the difference), there are 6 of them: LBJ in '60 (TX by 2), Dole in '76 (KS by 8), Mondale in '80 (MN by 4), Quayle in '92 (IN by 6), and Gore in '92 and '96 (TN by 5 and 2, respectively).  The only one of those that might have altered the final outcome is LBJ.  

All that said, I don't really see any major objections to Strickland, other than his lack of foreign policy experience.  I think he'd be a reasonable choice, but he wouldn't magically turn Ohio into a Democratic lock.

May 26, 2008 10:30 PM

roidubouloi said:

I just took a look at the SurveyUSA link that Mr. Patashnik provided.  It doesn't prove his point at all.  Just the opposite.  It does indeed appear, at least from this data set, that the VP choice can have a significant impact in such key states as OH and PA, it is is just that it is not the "favorite son" who has the impact.  In Both states, the SurveyUSA data shows the greatest gain, in some cases 10%, from having Edwards as the VP candidate, as Gavriel suggested just above.

I have problems with SurveyUSA which too often seems to me to generate suspiciously large spreads and to be volatile, but that is a different subject.  For present purposes, the point is that this data does not show that the VP pick makes little difference as Patashnik suggests,  It shows that SOME VP picks make little difference and others make a lot of difference, and it suggests that the "favorite son is not the best way to pick off a swing state.  Maybe that's because it is too obvious, insults the voters, but a VP candidate with direct appeal to movable constituencies within a state could matter a lot.

Liberal reformer, I believe, has repeatedly said that Obama's VP pick will be a Southern white male.  Maybe that is Edwards although who knows if he would do it.  Having someone who has been through a national campaign wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

May 26, 2008 10:36 PM

roidubouloi said:

edhenig,

I read Naomi's post and now, having looked at the SurveyUSA data to which Patashnik refers us, I am of the view that it is Patashnik who is wrong, but it certainly matters whether the state is actually in play.

May 26, 2008 10:40 PM

roidubouloi said:

edhenig,

One other thing:  If there is a VP pick who can bring OH into Obama's column, whoever it may be, without costing him something somewhere else, that is definitely the right play.  I don't see any way for McCain to win the Electoral College without OH.  Obama could, but McCain has no evident way of making up the negative 40-vote swing that represents.  So, if Obama has a way to pocket OH, he wins.

May 26, 2008 10:41 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Interesting post, but if the VP slot is viewed as a stepstone for the next tier of the party's leadership, then by definition you'll be putting another newbie on the ticket. That's the last thing Obama needs. He needs the safest, most reassuring, anodyne, hugely competent figure he can get.

Now, I'm hip to the argument tht the VP adds nothing. Which is why it's so important to be 100% sure that he or she also SUBTRACTS nothing. All roads lead to Biden.

If Ken Salazar can bring along CO, or Strickland can bring OH, then they're in play too. Neither would be offensive to working-class whites or hispanics; each is reassuring, smart, moderate. But Biden is the obvious, safe choice for a rookie with a bad habit of saying things on f-p, either directly or through surrogates, that only heighten people's suspicion that he's still too green for the job.

May 26, 2008 10:53 PM

roidubouloi said:

SurveyUSA says it took this poll in 17 states.  I seem only to be able to reach its data for OH, PA, VA, and NM, but they all show that Edwards makes a big difference.  I would take that with a salt block, but it surely doesn't debunk the idea that a VP pick can make a difference.

Overall, I think that "home state" may very well be the wrong way to go about it.  Looking for someone who can effect swing constituencies, for whatever reason, may be.

May 26, 2008 11:00 PM

AlanSP said:

Also, Josh, I'd hardly point to that SUSA Pennsylvania poll as evidence that VP picks don't make a difference, given that the results vary by up to 20 points depending on the VP matchup.  If it suggests anything, it's that the electoral impact of a VP isn't simply a function of what state the VP nominee is from.

In any case, VP is an odd position in that it is an extraordinarily weak office constitutionally, but it can be a stepping stone to the most powerful position in the country.  The problem is that the two different ways people go from Vice President to President lead you to somewhat different choices.  If the President dies or is incapacitated, you need someone who can step in right away.  Otherwise, you want somebody who can become President 8 years or more down the road (this is the aspect that you focus on).  Somebody like Biden would be a fantastic for the VP-as-insurance-policy aspect, but poor for the developing-future-talent aspect, while the reverse is true for many "rising stars" (e.g. Jindal on the Republican side).  There have, of course been some examples of people like Al Gore, who had a ton of experience, but was still young enough (44 when he became VP) to be a factor after 8 years in the national spotlight.  If you have any suggestions that fit that type of description, I'd be glad to hear them.

It's also worth noting that neither Obama nor McCain are in great positions to pick young, rising star types, Obama because of questions about his own experience, and McCain because his age makes the VP-as-insurance issue that much more salient.

May 26, 2008 11:02 PM

felons said:

Irrespective of the real world electoral effect of the VP choice, Josh makes a good point.  Getting the VP nomination does give you instant heft in the party.  With any luck, someone other than HRC will get that position.  (For a good eight years, I hope.)  It seems to me that the real good news here is that if someone else gets the nod, it is just that much more likely we won't be seeing any more HRC presidential runs.  One more reason to root against the so-called dream ticket.

May 26, 2008 11:02 PM

Josh Patashnik said:

edhenig: As AlanSP says, you have to ask yourself the question of causality--the reality is that nearly all of those VP nominees were from states that would have voted the way they did anyway.  Indiana would have gone for Bush in 1988 and 1992 with or without Quayle; Tennessee went for Clinton in 1992 and 1996, but so did other states in the region like Kentucky and West Virginia. I promise this will be addressed at greater length in my web piece later this week, but if you have access to academic journals, the relevant political science work is Robert Dudley and Ronald Rapoport, "Vice-Presidential Candidates and the Home State Advantage: Playing Second Banana at Home and on the Road," American Journal of Political Science 33:2 (1989), 537-540. They found that VP nominees improved their ticket's performance in their home states, on average, by less than half a percentage point over what it would likely have been based on national trends and partisan voting patterns in the state.

roidubouloi: I think it's pretty clear the effect you identify here is mostly just a function of name recognition. These polls suggest that McCain's best choices for running mate are Lieberman and Huckabee, since they're the only ones with a national profile, but (for good reason) pretty much nobody thinks things would actually play out that way in November. In 2004 there were similar polls showing Kerry would get a big boost from picking Edwards, but that effect dissipated before too long and the final results showed no real evidence of a running-mate difference. I didn't mean to suggest I think these polls are actually useful barometers of how the general-election will play out--just that they show no evidence of a home-state effect.

May 26, 2008 11:23 PM

roidubouloi said:

Mr. Patashnik,

I agree that the strong Edwards showing is almost certainly name recognition, which is part of what makes it difficult to discern an effect.  It seems to me that this is the sort of thing that has to be done very carefully, looking not only at what particular demographics in a state say about the individual, but about the sort of "issues" and bios that tend to move them.  It is not implausible that Edwards could appeal to union members in OH, PA, and MI.  

May 26, 2008 11:49 PM

arsonplus said:

Thanks Josh ... that pretty much sums up the basic argument for Mark Warner.

Tep,

I keep meaning to point out that if newbie-ness were a problem this year we would talking about why Dodd  not Obama should be Biden's VP.  And if their "experience" counted for much of anything, we wouldn't be in this situation.

For myself I came to the conclusion that folks like Biden were well-intentioned but had stayed on the shelf past their expiration dates right after he and Leslie Gelb shopped that watered down version of Peter Galbraith's Iraq plan around and it still represented the best Iraq thinking that came out of the "experienced"  crowd.  

It's not that I don't share your experience related trepidation ... its that my disgust at the mess they've made outweighs it. They haven't earned my continued trust, so I'm done offering it.

May 27, 2008 12:12 AM

AlanSP said:

Name recognition is probably a big factor in the recent SUSA VP polling (e.g. it's probably why Pawlenty does so poorly compared to Huckabee, Romney, and Lieberman), but the PA poll suggests that there is more to it than that.  Note that an Obama-Edwards ticket polls about 5 points better than Obama-Rendell in Pennsylvania; it's hard to argue that that's just a name recognition effect.

May 27, 2008 12:20 AM

aeromonas said:

"I've heard people argue against Webb, Chris Dodd, and Evan Bayh on the grounds that their selection would jeopardize a safe Democratic Senate seat. This isn't a totally irrelevant consideration, but it should still be way down there on the priority list. There are a hundred senators, and seats change hands relatively frequently."

I couldn't disaggree more.  Sure, there are a hundred senators, but it's the margin that's key, not the total population.  A three seat Democratic majority is VERY different from a one seat majority, and a five seat majority is very different from a three seat.  With each decrement, you've had 4% reduction in your margin of error for individual conscience votes, senatorial abscences, and general loose cannonism.  And if you pull Jim Webb out of his seat and it flips Republican, you've lost a 2 vote marginal advantage.

May 27, 2008 12:42 AM

The Plank said:

I'd like to second Josh's thoughts about the considerations that should go into Obama's veep

May 27, 2008 4:20 AM

mpatrickhendri said:

The choice should be used like a blunt instrument to bludgeon McCain's 'terrorists in closet' argument - and only a POW can handle it - argument. Biden or Webb would be perfect. Both carry impressive credentials and both love to mix it up on national security issues.

May 27, 2008 6:35 AM

roidubouloi said:

Good point, AlanSP.  I do think there is something real and perhaps enduring to the draw of Edwards for the blue-collar whites who could be a swing constituency on MI, OH, and PA.  Also, unlike the TNR editors, I do not think that the loss of a senate seat should be dismissed lightly.  

mpatrickhendri, You certainly cannot be wrong with that argument, but it all comes down to where, at the margin, if anywhere, the VP can make a difference and perhaps move a key swing state or secure a necessary vulnerable one.  The Electoral College math seems to me to say that OH, MI and PA are critical.  Obama needs both MI and PA. McCain needs OH (and is busted without it).  There is a good argument for shoring up PA, but you have to gamble a little and shoring up a state you will likely win is too conservative.  A VP that helps in OH will likely play in MI too.  To me, that says the focus needs to stay on OH.   If military/f-p cred would do that, I am all for it, and my personal first preference for president was Biden in any case.  However, if Biden or Webb won't accomplish that and there IS a way to do it, then I would.  If there really is no candidate who can move OH, then I would turn to the pick who has the best ability and credentials for hitting McCain on security/f-p and making it stick.  The guy knows not much about economics or f-p, but his military service gives him security cred.  If that can be successfully undermined, McCain would be naked.  Just an old man who was a war hero a long time ago.

May 27, 2008 9:02 AM

roidubouloi said:

Well, Mr. Patashnik,

You surely must be wrong because David Brooks today wrote essentially the same thing, down to the details.  Brooks has a veritable corner on disinformation for Democrats.  He is such a good friend.  Whatever he says to do, do the opposite.

May 27, 2008 10:10 AM

weisbardaj said:

"One of the most important things a party does is cultivate talent for the future, and selecting a vice presidential nominee is absolutely critical in that regard. It's like deciding what to do with the top pick in the NFL Draft"

William Miller (Republican, 1964, and father of Stephanie Miller on Air America)

May 28, 2008 8:09 PM