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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
23.04.2008
On Obama's Electability, Contra Judis

John Judis has a provocative web article about how the Pennsylvania primary exposed Barack Obama's potential weaknesses as a general election candidate. It's defnitely worth a read. However, I'd add a couple points to balance out the gloomy picture he paints. First, you can't automatically assume that any constituency that didn't support him in the primary also won't support him in the general election. John details how Obama's share of white upscale voters diminished, and he attributes this to the Wright controversy. Maybe, or maybe those voters -- especially the women -- just preferred Hillary Clinton, but would also prefer Obama over McCain. Sure, some of the Clinton voters will go for McCain in the fall, but you can't assume all (or even very many) of them will.

John's asumption that a candidate's primary base will be the same as his general election base strikes me as seriously flawed. If Hillary Clinton wins the nomination, will her electoral base consist of blue-collar whites? No, it will be highly similar to Obama's, with a major reliance on minorities and white liberals. As my colleague Chris Orr has just burst into my office to point out -- don't be alarmed, he does this several times a day -- right now Obama is having a hard time winning blue collar whites on the economy in large part because he has an opponent with a virtually identical economic platform. When he has an opponent who's tethered himself to President Bush's highly unpopular economic policies, winning over blue collar whites on the economy will get a lot easier. Extrapolating from primary dynamics to general election dynamics is very dicey business.

Second, while John compares Obama's coalition to the George McGovern coalition, this may not be as deadly a comparison as readers might believe. John himself is the co-author of a book which argues that the elements of the McGovern coalition have expanded to the point where they can form the base of a politial majority. On page 37 of that book, he writes (with co-author Ruy Teiziera), "Perhaps it is time to reappraise the McGovern campaign -- not as a model of how to win presidential elections, but as an election that foreshadowed a new Democratic majority in the twenty-first century."

Third, John does not address the corrollary question of Obama's electability problem: compared to what? The media has been obsessing over Obama's electability problem in a vacuum. But the Real Clear Politics poll average still has Obama performing a bit better than Clinton versus McCain -- and this is after several weeks when Obama suffered his worst two moments of the campaign, and the Republicans have been concentrating all their fire on him.

There has been obsessive media analysis of the demographic groups that support Clinton but might not vote for Obama. It's a fair point. But, given that Obama is running better than Clinton in trial heats, then the groups that would vote for Obama but not Clinton must be at least as numerous.

John writes that "the electoral premise of Obama's campaign--that he can attract middle class Republicans and Independents--is being undermined." Well, maybe, but again, if Obama is polling (slightly) better than Clinton is against McCain, then somebody out there likes him who doesn't like Clinton. Indeed, polling shows that along the general public, Clinton's unpopularity is rising faster than Obama's. The most recent Washington Post-ABC News poll had 44% of the public feeling favorable toward Clinton, and 54% unfavorable. Obama stands at 56/39, and McCain at 54/40.

I agree that Obama will have a tough go of it against McCain. But the Clinton campaign has been marshalling the electability argument not as a reason for Democrats to feel glum about their inevitable nominee, but as a reason for superdelegates to flock to her. Their argument doesn't work if Clinton is even weaker than he is.

--Jonathan Chait

Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:20 PM with 64 comment(s)

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phargle said:

Polls show that 15% of those who vote for Clinton intend to vote for McCain if Obama wins.  Bush won 11% of the Democratic vote in 2004 and 11% in 2000.  First, do we think McCain will do worse or better than Bush among Democrats?  Second, are those voters telling the truth?  Historical statistics and McCain's profile suggest that those folks mean what they say, and an Obama candidacy would see greater Democratic crossover in the general election.  It would work out to a 2% shift in McCain's favor.  That's enough to push Oregon, Wisconsin, Minnesota, MIchigan, Pennsylvania, and New Hampshire into the R column, and enough to make Washington, Deleware, Ner Jersey, and maybe even Connecticut and Maine into swing states.

April 23, 2008 1:58 PM

rozenson said:

Jon, you read my mind again. As soon as I even saw the title of Judis's piece, I knew you'd write a response. And it is a great one as usual.

But I want to quibble with you on something. You've written repeatedly that Clinton should drop out because she is hurting Obama in the long run. But you have kind of weakened that argument by pointing out that even with Obama's worst two moments of the campaign and relentless attack from Clinton and McCain, he's still slightly ahead of Mac. Is this consistent with the idea that Hillary's candidacy is hurting him in the polls? How can she be seriously harming his campaign and at the same time his electability is not being compromised?

April 23, 2008 2:03 PM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

I ask again here: Hillary is no fool. She knows she can't win... in 2008. Is it possible she is trying to turn Obama into an unelectable McGovern so that she can make another run against McCain in 2012?

April 23, 2008 2:04 PM

sdemuth said:

OK, but please stop putting McGovern and Obama in the same headline.  Democrats don't need reminders of that debacle.

April 23, 2008 2:06 PM

BHLnyc said:

Jonathan,

Your "compared to what?" argument is the one that I always come back to.

For all of Hillary's brand recognition, institutional advantages (including the ferocious support of a former president), fund-raising head start and inherent appeal to the party's core constituency (working class white women), she finds herself on the ropes, in debt and having to go hugely negative just to stay alive. Does any sane Democrat really think that this is a viable alternative to Obama?

April 23, 2008 2:07 PM

tnmats said:

Don't ever discount how HRC will energize conservatives that otherwise would sit on the sidelines.  And she also is quite polarizing even in Democratic ranks.  I for one, who used to assume I'd vote for either HRC or BO, can never vote for her now.  Not after how she's conducted herself.  She's made me regret ever voting for Bill Clinton, something I never dreamed would happen.

Both candidates are damaged goods but I still think she's more damaged.  And McBush hasn't had a single challenge to date from either HRC or BO, at least not a serious challenge.

April 23, 2008 2:10 PM

psantillana said:

I keep seeing one steady unfluctuating fact:

Over time, Obama gains votes with exposure, and Clinton loses them. He cut her lead in Pennsylvania from twenty something percent to nine and a bit. And that was with the Rev. Wright and "bittergate". This has been true in every single state so far. She starts out with an advantage, and he cuts or eliminates it.

This is what makes him better for the general election. He will make good use of the time between now and November, and she will not.

April 23, 2008 2:27 PM

sjberke1 said:

We also have to consider, not only who among Clinton or Obama supporters might vote for McCain if their candidate does not win the nomination, but who might simply not vote.  If Clinton is the nominee (and especially if it is an all-white ticket) that might include a LOT of African Americans.

April 23, 2008 2:36 PM

eweiss said:

all these arguments ignore the basic premise here... this is about electoral math. Nobody is suggestting that he is going to lose California or New York or win SC or GA. And nobody is suggesting that she will win Texas. The hard fact remains that Obama performs poorly in Ohio and Fla, all states the Dems really must win to have a reasonable shot at beating McCain. Obviously he could still win the election by winning VA, Colorado, etc.. but it is going to be very very difficult. All these numbers you all quote are contaminated by large margins in meaningless states. If you take emotion out of it, it is hard to ignore that the recent elections have been decided in about 8 states and she is significantly ahead in almost all of them. So despite the 54% unfav rating, she may well be the better general election candidate. Look at the math as it stands today at (election.loquacious.org/2008-presidential). There is simply no denying it.

April 23, 2008 3:17 PM

virginiacentrist said:

eweiss:

You do realize that BOTH Democrats are underperforming in polls because of this harsh primary, right???

Also - you also realize that for Hillary to win the nomination, she must take it against the will of the people, which would by definition destroy the Democratic coalition. Right?

Any Hillary Clinton electability argument can't be conducted using today's polls. It must include an analysis of how Hillary acheiving the nomination would affect her standing. Personally, I would fly to Denver to protest if she were nominated. I'm sure Obama supporters could round up at least 100,000 people to do the same....

April 23, 2008 3:38 PM

virginiacentrist said:

[continued] How do you win Florida/Ohio when you have Democrats protesting at all of your campaign stops? How do you win Florida/Ohio when you have African American leaders calling for your head on a daily basis? How do you win Florida/Ohio when you bleed new young voters (all registered BY Obama) to McCain?

You people have to be kidding me.

April 23, 2008 3:39 PM

eweiss said:

by the way, if you give NC to McCain (a good bet), the Obama McCain race ends up 269-269 according to this model. That means that if he loses Fl and OH, he must win CO, MI, and WI just to tie. If she wins Fl and OH, she can lose all those states plus MO and still win.

April 23, 2008 3:43 PM

roidubouloi said:

In one small respect, I agree with Judis, or with what might be inferred from Judis.  When the primary season began, Obama had positioned himself, correctly, a bit to the right of Hillary.  This was essential, very perceptive on his part, because a black man to her left could too easily be caricatured as an extreme liberal.  Wright, Bittergate, and Hillary's attacks have had Hillary insinuating herself to his right.  Although this hasn't change the numbers in her favor -- mostly I think because her unfavorability rating is rising faster than what she takes ways from him -- they are having the effect of changing the perception of him to one that is more left.  That is not helpful for the general election although it will have no bearing on the nomination (because that is finished already for anyone who knows how to count).

For the sake of the general, Obama needs to start now re-positioning himself further to the right.  I don't know and haven't thought about what issues he can and should use as the medium with which to do that.  But it will not be helpful to him in November if Hillary successfully re-frames him as a leftie.  He needs to start undoing that damage now because the firmer the frame gets, the harder it will be to dislodge.

April 23, 2008 3:51 PM

roidubouloi said:

eweiss,

That map is baloney backed up with nothing.  California is not "weakly Democratic."  The biases of the author are apparent just from some of the howlers.  Try again.

April 23, 2008 3:52 PM

eweiss said:

take your pick... use any electoral college calculator you like. You can't change the math. If he can't win Ohio AND Florida, he can't win. As of today, she stands a better chance. As to the threats of protestors, strikes me as slightly melodramatic... the point is that Obama is in trouble. I am not advocating stealing any elections. I just want the Obama Kool-Aid drinkers to recognize some real problems with his campaign that were addressed by Judis, but ignored by Chait. Attacking HRC does not solve Obama's electibility problem. It is real...

April 23, 2008 3:56 PM

wildboy said:

The thing that never seems to be mentioned anymore (at least not by Republicans or Hillary supporters) is that elections don't happen in a vacuum.  Yes, Bush got 11% of self-identified Democrats to vote for him in 2000 and 2004 -- but 2000 was peace and prosperity and voters could express their displeasure with Clintonism by taking it out on Gore while perceiving Bush as economically and politically non-threatening, while 2004 was a referendum on Bush's handling of an Iraq War that had not yet unraveled (and which was colored by 9/11 memories) against a background of an okay economy.  Yes, Bush Senior beat Dukakis handily in 1988 -- but this was another prosperity election, with Republicans basking in the unfolding collapse of Communism.  Reagan over Monday in 1984 -- does it need to be spelled out?  Even Nixon's victory in 1972 over McGovern, for crying out loud, played out in the context of an economic recovery from the 1971 recession, a complete phase-out of American ground troops in Vietnam and, by Election Day, a peace agreement with the North Vietnamese.

The dynamics of all these races were COMPLETELY different from the 2008 election -- unpopular incumbent party, unpopular war, economic peril and an unfolding recession.  The election metrics here are most like 1980 (substitute Iraq for the Iranian Hostage Crisis) and 1976 (which, if anything, was better for the Republicans as the economy had started to recover and there was no war).  In a recession election year, the average voter needs to find someone to blame for the situation -- and they sure as hell are not going to blame Jeremiah Wright or William Ayres for it!  I don't believe the hype that Obama will bring massive numbers of Republicans or conservative Independents to vote for him this year, but those who think that his performance in 2008 would be like McGovern's, Mondale's or Dukakis's (or even Kerry's) are delusional.

April 23, 2008 4:01 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Eweiss:

As soon as the nominee is chosen (if it's Obama), the Democratic party will start to unify. We'll see Obama's numbers in almost every state bump up by 5%. And if it doesn't happen then, it will happen the first time McCain attacks Obama from the far Right. You see - people have partisan urges that are triggered by Republican attacks. They may not like Obama, but they'll certainly vote him.

There's also something that I like to call the "Hildabeast bump". You see - Republicans FEAR Hillary Clinton because they believe the Clintons have magical powers. They also just hate her guts generally. So - if (and when) Obama finally vanquishes her, there will be a big jump in his support from Republicans and independents who hate Hillary's guts and are grateful for her defeat. While this jump may not be permanent, it will certainly make all of your predictions look silly.

April 23, 2008 4:13 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Amen Wildboy: Comparing Obama to McGovern is treacherously close to libel. McGovern won one state, right?

April 23, 2008 4:14 PM

virginiacentrist said:

"As to the threats of protestors, strikes me as slightly melodramatic"

I guess. Obama's core supporters are the type of people who showed up to caucuses. They trend young and affluent. They have plenty of time on their hands to do this sort of stuff.

A Hillary Clinton nomination (taken against the will of the people) will be plagued by problems...take it from Doug Wilder (a bit of a nutty guy, but probably right): if the superdelegates override the pledged delegates, then there will be riots in Denver.

April 23, 2008 4:17 PM

Idefix said:

What no one is taking into account is that the race between Clinton and Obama doee not in any way forecast what the race between Obama and McCain will look like. In this primary psychodrama all the cards are stacked against Obama: he is fighting a fight that's not political but symbolic: given their near-identical platforms he has got to play on the level of image (not being too overbearing, too negative, disrespectful of women, etc.). Given that they mostly share the same values, he is wrestling with a ghost -- with image, nuance, symbols (silly politics).  Once he is left facing McCain, all that will change. If McCain were to confront him with Wright, lapel pins and the like, Obama would have an easy time lashing back with the war, the economy, health care and so forth. I don't think I am being too optimistic if I say that NOW is the hard part. The fall will look almost easy compared to this never-ending torture.

April 23, 2008 4:33 PM

mmathog said:

If this ends by June, McCain is so screwed it's not even funny.

April 23, 2008 4:34 PM

icarusr said:

VC: Massachusettes.

Wildboy: Amen.

Eweiss: Your analysis assumes that everyone who voted for Bush in 2000 will vote for McCain in 2008, plus the shift in the cross-over Democrats.  It also assumes that the "base" or strength of Obama in the GE as against McCain can be determined on the basis of his performance as against Clinton.  I am not an expert - and I do not live in the US - but the assumptions are analytically questionable.  Not to mention that McCain has not been tested electorally as against either Democratic candidate.  Until the GE gets underway, it is not just difficult, but impossible, to base a judgement on "electability".  Don't forget the two axioms of modern electoral politics: all politics is local, and a week is a long time in politics.

Now then.  There is a convention process that works on the basis of delegate election and selection (and not direct votes).  The process is not perfect, but there it is.  The Democratic Party could have gone the route of the British conservatives and have had one member-one vote, but that is not what they did.  The delegates are elected and selected in processes that are often inscrutable and that do not give rise to accurate "democratic" vote counting.  Then there are Michigan and Florida, which flouted the rules and, in a country governed by the rule of law, when you flout the rules, you get to sit out the process.  

So the choice for the superdelegates is clear: if Obama has more delegates than Clinton, do they weigh in and hand over the nomination to Hillary on the basis of factors that are by definition unknowable and analysis that is be nature speculative, or do you go by the delegate numbers, which are concrete and which demonstrate strategic positioning in the course of the primaries on the part of Obama?

Any way, at this point in the game, the Clintons are driving the wrecking ball and the Democratic electorate have decided to play along.  Obama is not McGovern, but by the time Mrs. Clinton is through with him, and with the Democratic Party, if the Democrats even retain their Senate majority I'd be surprised.

R

April 23, 2008 4:39 PM

wildboy said:

VA,

True that on McGovern.  However, by Howard Wolfson's logic, Obama is clearly the more pathetic loser since McGovern (unlike Obama) carried Massachusetts.

April 23, 2008 4:42 PM

roidubouloi said:

Let's speculate about comets hitting the earth during the Democratic convention.  The super delegates are NOT going to override the pledged delegate count and popular vote, both of which Obama has already won for anyone who knows how to count and how to read a poll.  PA was Hillary's last chance and she gained no ground, none.  The super delegates are politicians, mostly elected to public office, not suicidal maniacs.  They are not going to destroy the Democratic party for Hillary Clinton.

April 23, 2008 4:50 PM

icarusr said:

And given that we are now officially in the silly season, I'm signing off until this is all over.  Good-bye and thanks for the fish.

April 23, 2008 4:51 PM

timteeter said:

In 1964, Goldwater lost in a landslide.

In 1980, Ronald Reagan won in a landslide.

In 1972, George McGovern lost in landslide.

In 2008 . . . . ?

April 23, 2008 5:00 PM

roidubouloi said:

For a different view of the Electoral College map, try this:

http://uselectionatlas.org/

This one, based on current state-by-state polls, has has McCain up 55 over Hillary with 125 in play and McCain up 54 over Obama with 144 in play.  That means Obama has the better shot.  In any case, the Dems are busy beating each other up, Hillary is doing the Republican's dirty work, and no one has had a real look at McCain's many infirmities and liabilities on display.  

All the more reason why the supers, if the are worth something more than a bucket of warm spit, will call it right after NC and IN when it is plain to even the innumerate amongst us the Hillary can no longer win the delegate race of the popular vote.  The question will then be what to do about Hillary when she continues to campaign and attack Obama even after he has an absolute majority of pledged and super delegates.

April 23, 2008 5:11 PM

jwl2672 said:

Judis is Wrong! Wrong I tells ya! I love that man Obama and don't you dare say a negative word about him!

April 23, 2008 5:30 PM

AlanSP said:

eweiss,

Your claim that "If he can't win Ohio AND Florida, he can't win" has very little to back it up.  Maybe you meant Ohio OR Florida (although that's still probably not true).  How about this: Kerry states (252) + Colorado (9) + Iowa (7, probably the easiest pickup), + any one of New Mexico (5), Nevada (5), Virginia (13), or any of the states in the longshot-but-possible category (e.g. MO, ND, MT, AK, NC).  No Ohio, no Florida, and over 270 electoral votes.  Winning Ohio would certainly make things easier, but it's by no means necessary.  Heck, even the map you linked to had him losing Ohio and Florida (as well as New Mexico and New Hampshire) and still getting 269, which is enough for the Presidency with a Democratic house.

Poblano's analysis over at www.fivethirtyeight.com is the best I've seen on the internet so far.  At the moment, it doesn't look particularly great for either Dem, but the available data doesn't back up the claim that Hillary would be stronger in the general.

April 23, 2008 5:30 PM

bl462 said:

Chait's article is so much whistling past what, especially after last night, increasingly looks like the political graveyard of Obama's campaign.  

April 23, 2008 5:50 PM

blackton said:

b142, wow such insightful analysis, you must have spent all day coming up with that one.

If McCain takes Rice or Powell against Clinton, the election will be over in September as all the talk then will be about how bold his choice was. He might even win the black vote, however against Obama any woman is marginal at best since under McCain Roe Vs. Wade will be overturned. Not even Hillary supporters are that stupid to see that happen. But blacks, especially men, won't care about that. Obama will take care of womens issues, but Hillary has lost blacks for good, and with a Condi or Powell in the White House, blacks will be able to feel at least they got some respect from some candidate, even though it is McCain.

April 23, 2008 6:18 PM

phargle said:

You can win an election without Ohio and Florida.  Both Gore and Kerry came close.  It's just very hard.  A candidate who can perform well in either of those states gets a lot of wiggle room to screw up in others.  

Democratic crossover is pretty consistent.  In 1992, it was about 10%.  In 1996, it was about 10%.  In 2000, it was 11%.  In 2004 (which was an angrier election than some of you seem to be recalling - remember Michael Moore?), it was 11%.    If Obama's supporters are telling the truth, 10% of Democrats will vote for McCain if Hillary wins.  Their claim matches past history.  If Clinton's supporters are telling the truth, 15% of Democrats will vote for McCain if Obama wins.  That's higher than historical crossover averages, but consider the voters we're talking about - these are white-collar, midwestern whites.  Back when their crossover vote hurt the Democrat party, we had 18-20% crossover rates and two Reagan victories.  The Obama defection risk is therefore not unreasonable to believe either.  Add in that another 10% say they'll just stay home, and you have a problem.

Not that McCain has no problems of his own.  He must get that 11% crossover, and he must also win independents by a couple of points because of the numerical advantage Democrats have going into this election.  It's not unreasonable to say that McCain should do at least as well among Democrats as Republicans have done historically, considering his profile.  

April 23, 2008 6:43 PM

woland said:

"Hildabeast bump!?!"  That's got to be the funniest thing I've read on this blog!!!

Thanks again virginiacentrist for the insightful analysis and humor.

April 23, 2008 6:45 PM

mmathog said:

If Obama can end this by June, turn around and  hire guys like Wolfson and Carville, McCain will be lucky to get within 30 million votes, he'll have a 50/50 shot at Kentucky.

April 23, 2008 6:55 PM

teplukhin2you said:

The issue isn't individual states, it's demographics. We can't win if we're not at parity with the white and hispanic working-class vote. If we're at parity with the GOP on this demographic, we win; if we're south of 45%, we lose, as simple as that.  

I believe, and hope, that Obama can turn it around with this crucial demographic that right now is leaning very definitely (6pt margin per latest Gallup poll) to McCain, but he's not inspired much confidence so far.

April 23, 2008 7:25 PM

billy_budd said:

How about some numbers for our endless speculations?

Electability

by kos

Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:27:53 PM PDT

The Mountain West has huge growth potential for the Democratic Party, which is why the DNCC is in Denver this year. Colorado is leading the way and is definitely a winnable state ... with the right candidate at the top of the ticket.

Rasmussen. 4/16. Likely voters. MoE 4.5% (3/17 results)

McCain (R) 43 (46)

Obama (D) 46 (46)

McCain (R) 50 (52)

Clinton (D) 36 (38)

Obama makes Colorado competitive, Clinton kills it for us. And that's not just relevant at the top of the ticket. We have a top-tier Senate race in the state, and you better believe Mark Udall is better off with Obama at the top of the ticket than having to make up a 14-point Clinton deficit. Throw in CO-04, which is already on the DCCC's target list, and once again, it's clear why having Obama at the top of the ticket is so helpful to the Democratic Party not just at the presidential level, but down below it as well.

Same goes for another Red state we can flip with the right candidate (that "right" candidate being Obama): North Carolina:

Rasmussen. 4/10. Likely voters. MoE 4.5% (3/20 results)

McCain (R) 47 (51)

Obama (D) 47 (42)

McCain (R) 51 (50)

Clinton (D) 40 (34)

Clinton might make this one competitive, but it'd be tough. Obama immediately makes this a top-tier pickup opportunity in a state that McCain can ill-afford to defend. We also have a potentially hot Senate race and at least one solid House pickup opportunity (NC-08), both of which would benefit from 1) having the state be a presidential battleground, and 2) having a competitive candidate at the top of the ticket.

What about those "big states" that Clinton thinks only she can win? How about California?

Rasmussen. 4/16. Likely voters. MoE 4.5% (3/12 results)

McCain (R) 43 (38)

Obama (D) 50 (53)

McCain (R) 42 (39)

Clinton (D) 47 (46)

Not that either Democrat would lose California to McCain (even in the best-case scenario, he wouldn't have the money to contest it), but funny how Obama runs stronger than Clinton in the Golden State. And even those two points will matter to candidates like Charlie Brown in CA-04 fighting to eeke out tight victories in tough districts. Indeed, Brown only lost by three points in 2006.

What about the purple states, like Minnesota?

SurveyUSA. 4/11-13. Likely voters. MoE 4.3% (3/14-16 results)

McCain (R) 43 (47)

Obama (D) 49 (46)

McCain (R) 46 (46)

Clinton (D) 47 (49)

Minnesota won't be a state we can take for granted this fall. It will be a tough one for either Obama or Clinton, but it's clear that Obama fares better. And remember, this is all post-"Wright" and all that other nonsense that has supposedly crushed Obama time and time again. Same goes with Wisconsin, Iowa, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington:

SurveyUSA. 4/14-17. Likely voters. MoE 4% (3/14-16 results)

McCain (R) 40 (47)

Obama (D) 53 (48)

McCain (R) 45 (47)

Clinton (D) 48 (47)

Check out that Obama surge -- it was also post-"Wright", post-"Bitter", post all that bull. Yet after all that crap, they've decided they still like Obama and have now given him a comfortable margin in the must-win Democratic state. Clinton? She makes it a nail biter.

Obama even makes a difference in the "blowout" states, like McCain's home of Arizona.

Rasmussen. 4/15. Likely voters. MoE 4.5% (No trend lines)

McCain (R) 57

Obama (D) 37

McCain (R) 60

Clinton (D) 32

"But", say the Clinton apologists, "what does it matter if we lose by 28 points or just 20? A loss is a loss!" It matters to the two House Democratic freshman running tough reelection campaigns this year (Mitchell in AZ-05 and Giffords in AZ-08). It matters to the Democrats running in our two targeted races in AZ-01 (Renzi's old seat) and AZ-03 (Shadegg's seat). The smaller the margin at the top of the ticket, the fewer ticket splitters they need to win their races.

Really, I can go through polls all day (and likely will over the coming two weeks), showing how in most states Obama runs stronger and has greater coattail potential than Clinton. I'm even ignoring pre-"Bitter" polls to ensure the numbers aren't just fresh, but include all of Obama's baggage. Yet as we'll see in the vast majority of cases (the biggest exception being Florida, though there are several others), Obama does far better.

What about the daily national tracking polls? In Rasmussen's latest, Obama trails McCain by 3, Clinton trails McCain by 6. Advantage Obama. Gallup has one of those tracking polls as well, and they have Obama and McCain tied at 45, while Clinton trails McCain by (a statistically insignificant) 1 point.

So remind me again how is Clinton "more electable" against McCain than Obama?

She's lost more contests to Obama than she's won. She's raised less money than he has. She fares poorer in the polling against McCain than he does. She trails in the popular vote.

And somehow, despite the fact she runs behind Obama in the general, the supers are supposed to overturn the will of the primary electorate and spur intra-party civil war on her behalf? Is she really that narcissistic?

Apparently so.

April 23, 2008 7:27 PM

roidubouloi said:

b1462,

You simply do not know how to count.  It was neither expected nor is it necessary that Obama win every primary and that Hillary win none.  He more than did his job in PA by getting her numbers under 10%.  That fact alone means that she is not even within hailing distance of capturing a majority of the pledged delegates or of the popular vote.  On May 7, after NC and IN, even the innumerate, such as yourself, will wake up to discover that Obama is as far ahead in both delegates and popular votes as he was the night before PA and that there is no more "track" left for Hillary to run on to catch up.  I wouldn't go so far as to predict the end of her political career, but it will certainly be the end of her presidential ambitions.  By 2016, the world will certainly have moved on.

April 23, 2008 7:32 PM

mmathog said:

Wow, I can't imagine anything less relevant than current McCain polls (except to show how absurdly weak he is).

This guy has faced absolutely nothing, his campaign is utterly unprepared for the Dem train to come crashing down on him. He has 0 ability to talk about the country's most pressing issue, the economy, and wrong track numbers are at 85%.

Now a bunch of GOPers will whip it out and tell me McCain was a P.O.W.

April 23, 2008 7:38 PM

roidubouloi said:

no phargle, I don't think so.

The whole mode of analysis that takes some prior election and adds a nip here and a tuck there is basically wrong.  It might look like that after the fact, but that is not the dynamic.  If it were, Bush I never would have lost to Bill Clinton.  The parties and the candidates, not to mention the pundits and the bloggers, also love to think of this as a sporting event in which the voters are mere spectators while the candidates contest and their campaign skills determine the outcome.  That is, they like to think that the outcome is purely a function of the campaigns.  Not in the slightest.  Bill Clinton won because the economy was lousy and, justly or unjustly, the incumbent party gets the blame.  We are in a recession that will be going full steam by the fall, notwithstanding the Fed's best efforts to ignore all of their monetarist hogwash and use Keynesian methods to rescue the Republicans.  McCain will have that as a huge headwind.  Absent some terrible gaffe by Obama, he will win.  All he needs is a 'truthy" agenda to address the recession and to have surrogates ready to counterpunch hard when the Republican Swift-boating starts.

April 23, 2008 7:39 PM

roidubouloi said:

Thank you Billy Budd for some actual analysis rather than teplukhin-esque handwringing.

The problem with the theory that any particular demographic is critical is that you have to ask, by how much?  A slightly lower win, or even a close loss, in a supposedly critical demographic can be made up n other ways.  Electoral coalitions are always in flux.  While "working-class Democrats" are important, and women are important, and blacks are important, etc., etc., at the end of the day you have to add it all up and see who comes out ahead in the aggregate.  The numbers never add up for Hillary.  She can claim to be doing better in this corner of this state, or that demographic, or whatever she wants, but the total always puts her behind Obama (at least for some months now) and usually behind McCain.  With Obama, it adds up ahead.

April 23, 2008 7:45 PM

mmathog said:

roi I think you kinda miss the point and you're thinking with your balls and not your brain.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Obama isn't beating HRC and isn't highly likely to garner the nomination (or at least they really shouldn't be) I think people are saying (or at least I am) that it's disconcerting that Obama can't put away a weakened (both politically and fiscally) opponent in spite of less than favorable demogs.

The Pennsylvania showing wasn't terrible, but not great either, the Ohio showing was just bad, even Samantha Power was like 'we fucked up in Ohio.'

Hopefully, he'll finish her in Indiana and we can stop having these stupid discussions, sit back, relax, and watch McCain fold like a cheap suit.

April 23, 2008 7:49 PM

roidubouloi said:

I don't think I'm missing the point at all mmathog.  This isn't a wrestling match.  The demographics and predispositions of the voters in particular states matter.  Each candidate comes to each state with only a limited set of opportunities.  It is not wide open to any outcome if you just "put the other side away" through some bravura feat of campaigning.  

State by state, you have to put together a strategy that minimizes your weaknesses -- every candidate has them -- and maximizes your strengths.  Obama has done that superbly.  Hillary never did.  Thus, the very idea that Obama didn't "put her away" in PA is flawed, as is the idea that there is in reality any nominating race that is not already over.  There isn't.  It is a pure Hillarista fiction.  It is a perfectly good strategy to keep it close in states where the demographics favor the other side and blow them out of the water when the demographics favor you.  

If you don't handicap the results at all and look at them in context, it is easy to believe that Hillary won a victory in PA.  She didn't.  It is in fact the scene of her final defeat because she did not gain even one more delegate than she will lose on May 6 in a state where the demographics were pretty much perfect for her.  Since she made zero headway in the last perfect opportunity for her, now all he has to do is run out the clock.

If you like football analogies, she had the ball briefly in the fourth quarter with time for the go-ahead touchdown.  She didn't score.  Now all Obama has to do is run out the clock.  He doesn't need another touchdown although it might be a crowd-pleaser.

I say this as someone who has successfully managed three successive Democratic sweeps in a town with an even enrollment.  It wasn't done with some sort of grand theatrics, by "putting someone away" as if it were a bullfight or a prize fight.  It was done by carefully considering the demographics and voter dispositions in each election district and crafting a strategy that would garner more votes when the counting was done.  When you succeed at this in an otherwise balanced electorate, it is so stealthy that people often don't understand how you did it.  They think you were just lucky.  That is what Obama has done to Hillary.  Believe me, his people are delighted with the outcome in PA because they know what it means.  He did a fabulous job in PA fighting her to what was in essence, in the context of the remainder of the campaign, a draw.

April 23, 2008 8:22 PM

roidubouloi said:

Basically mmathog, and others, because delegates are awarded with some form of proportionality in the Demcratic nominating process, it is an intellectual mistake to think of the whole thing in terms of winning and losing particular states.  It is actually a single election that is conducted in parts spread out over time.  While "winning" PA may be nice PR, in the end the only thing won is the net gain in delegates, and they all go into a single pot.  It is for that reason that it doesn't actually matter that Obama "lost" PA. He has enough victories for PR purposes and will have more.  What matters is that Hillary gained no more delegates than she will lose on May 6.  Hence, she gained nothing while running most of the remaining time off the clock.

April 23, 2008 8:28 PM

purcellneil said:

My Dad will vote for John McCain - but he likes Hillary and could see himself voting for her under different circumstances (ie, if no Republican were running).

My sister, however, who voted for Bush in 2000 and even in 2004 was ready to vote for Obama until the Rev Wright disaster.

Between the "bitter/cling" comment and the nuanced disavowal of Rev Wright, Obama has alienated some people.  

I hope he can fix that.

Neil

April 23, 2008 11:00 PM

dsmth said:

roidubouloi says:

"The question will then be what to do about Hillary when she continues to campaign and attack Obama even after he has an absolute majority of pledged and super delegates."

A few father figures will call her out back and explain the facts of life to her.  In its scolding editorial today, the NYT tried out its voice for that, um, sad day.

April 23, 2008 11:14 PM

dsmth said:

purcellneil says:

'Between the "bitter/cling" comment and the nuanced disavowal of Rev Wright, Obama has alienated some people.'

Offending people is what politicians do best.  Pleasing them is only second best.  Fooling them is a distant third these cynical times.

April 23, 2008 11:18 PM

matthawk said:

It turns out that maybe Governor Rendell of Pennsylvania was correct afterall when he said that a good 5% of white Pennsylvanians would never vote for a black man.

elections.foxnews.com/.../pa-gov-ed-rendell-some-white-voters-not-ready-to-elect-black-candidate

In an exit poll taken on election day 13% of Pennsylvania voters said that race was a factor in the way they voted during the recent Pennsylvania primary. Of that 13% 2/3rd s voted for Hillary Clinton.

www.youtube.com/watch

What is particularly disturbing about this is that, unlike what has come to be known as the “Bradley Effect” in other states, where people polled were too embarrassed to say these things even over the telephone, Pennsylvanians were bold enough to say this to the face of the poll taker.

It also appears that Hillary advisor James Carville was correct in describing Pennsylvania as being Pittsburgh on one end, Philadelphia on the other, and Alabama in between. It is that “in between” where Bill and Hillary spent most of their time and energy during the six weeks leading up to the primary election.

en.wikipedia.org/.../James_Carville (see “quotes” section)

Also, the North Carolina Republican Party is preparing to air an political attack ad that even John McCain and the National Republican Party have called reprehensible. The ad uses clips of Jeremiah Wright, to attack Barack Obama, to attack two local black candidates for congress using the logic of guilt by race and association.

www.youtube.com/watch

While McCain has condemned the ad as not having a place in the political discourse Hillary Clinton, great champion for civil rights that she claims to be, has declined to comment on the ad and its appropriateness or inappropriateness in the political arena.

It turns out that Hillary will not fight against incivility and racial stigmatizing if it will benefit her on Election Day. Is this a surprise?

April 23, 2008 11:25 PM

Annabella2 said:

Roi... you couldn't be more correct...I am rather surprised to see how many people buy into the Hillarista hype and spin even on these pages.

Down from plus 25 to just a tad over 9 in a state where the demographics were as good as they get for her, is hardly a win.

But what I am not seeing here or elsewhere is something that concerns me about the future of the Democratic Party.  It has always been a fractured coalition, far more fractured than the Republicans... my question, since the demographic split of these candidates has become so clear since NH is Whither the Democratic Party and I have seen very little discussion of this question... the more educated, affluent "elites" along with the Afro-Americans and young people have precious little in common with Hillary's core constituency.  How do you keep these groups that have so little in common under one umbrella?  And is Hillary's core constituency "Democratic" at all or aren't they precisely the types of voters that given a choice between Hillary and McCain would be the very ones most likely to flock to McCain allowing imagery of "strength" and "military honor" to trump everything else.  In my door to door canvassing it has sure looked like that.  Not much difference in either attitudes or demographics between the Hillary voters and the McCain Republicans. ... New York feminists notwithstanding.  And the polls seem to be bearing that out.

But Hillary really is history for this 2008 round unless something EXTRAORDINARY happens.

What isn't history is whither the Democratic Party and what would a new progressive center that included decent conservatives (as opposed to the indecent one) look like.  Isn't the time ripe?  Is there going to be a better candidate than Obama in the near future?

Or is McCain likely to revert to the old McCain that this Republican Party so hated?  Probably could have done it if he had gotten to where he is at a younger age, but now?  Dubious.  He is energetic but he is no Adenauer.

April 23, 2008 11:45 PM

roidubouloi said:

Annabella,

In reponse to Judis's rather, in my oinion, incorrect view about Obama's electability (whatever it is, PA primary proves exactly nothing), I noted that the Wright affair, Bitter-gate, and Hilary's attacks have had th effect of insinuating her to his right and making him seem more left-wing.  This is certainly not good for the general election.  I think Obama needs to find the issue that can serve as a medium for him to reposition himself back toward the center again.  For a zillion reasons, he really need not worry about the left-wing of his base.  They will be there in November.  He needs to start courting the center, left and right center.

The Democratic party is always less disciplined than the Republicans, but nor really more fractured.  We do have the right candidate for a progressive, centrist majority.  But he has to get back to the center.

April 24, 2008 12:27 AM

teplukhin2you said:

roi, again, you misread me. Iamnotforhillary Iamnotforhillary Iamnotforhillary Iamnotforhillary Iamnotforhillary . Got it?

As Rasmussen's polls (re-posted by billy_budd) make clear, Obama trails McCain nationally. As Gallup's polls make clear, he trails McCain among ALL voters, black white hispanic other, who have a high school education. My point, again, is NOT that Hillary's a better candidate than Obama; I don't believe she has a snowball's chance of getting the nomination. I agree with you on that.

But that's not the point here. The point, again, is that Obama has _serious weaknesses_, and for him to remedy those and avoid Dukakis' fate in the fall, he really needs to hear, from his cheerleaders above all, some straight talk about the reality of his situation. It's not nearly so cozy as his partisans believe.

Especially when the candidate is as cocky and green as young Obama is.

April 24, 2008 1:53 AM

bl462 said:

roidubouloi,

Sorry if I confused you.  I wasn't implying that Clinton could catch Obama in the delegate count. Rather, I think that, as I commented on another thread at TNR, that the decisive losss in Pennsylvania indicates Obama has lost momentum in the Presidential race.  

The loss in Pennsylvania would seem to show that a lot of Democratic voters in a key state in the presidential race aren't exactly enthusiastic about Obama, notwithstanding the many appeals and calls during the campaign for Clinton to drop out and despite  significant efforts to change their minds, as evidenced by Obama considerably outspending Clinton in Pennsylvania,  

The most obvious beneficiary of the ongoing noisy and high profile internecine warfare in the Democratic Party could reasonably be expected to be John McCain's campaign.  Grumpy Clinton voters who say they will (and may well)  vote McCain if Obama wins the Democratic nomination could be enough to decide the election.  

April 24, 2008 2:39 AM

roidubouloi said:

Sorry b146s, but I'm not confused.  Hillary did not achieve a decisive win in PA, she achieved a decisive loss.  In fact, her failure to gain any ground in PA beyond the minimum that could be expected there given the demographics means that her last clear chance to change the outcome has come and gone and she achieved nothing.  Not that she really had any momentum to begin with (after every round of voting she has been further behind than she was before), but if she can be said to have had any going into PA, it died then and there.   In a state where the demographics were perfect for her, all she could manage was 9% and a gain of 12-15 delegates.  Now it is Obama's turn to bat, and he is going to hit it out of the park in NC.  

The net of this round of voting will once again be that Hillary will have gained no ground in either the delegate count or the popular vote (she may well be further behind than she was on the eve of PA) and it will be obvious to the world that there are not enough delegates unchosen or votes left uncast for her to catch up.  PA was not the beginning for her.  It was the end.  You simply have no case to make that a candidate who falls a bit further behind has "momentum" (a fairly meaningless idea anyway as it doesn't carry from one state to another in general),  Nor can you plausibly claim that the candidate who keeps gaining steadily at every round does not.

You are making the CW mistake of assuming that the demographics in particular states and the predispositions of the voters there are irrelevant to the outcome when in fact they dominate the outcome.  Oddly, this only seems to confuse people in primaries.  Everyone understands very well that there are red states and blue states that only one party can win and then a handful of them in contention.  Nobody thinks it is a stunning achievement when the Democrat wins NY or CA or the Republican wins TX or AL.  It was no different in PA.  It was Hillary's to lose.  She just broke even.  

It was never the case that Obama could or would or needed to win the Democratic "red states," i.e., the Hillary states.  A key difference between this primary system and the general is that in the general one vote loss in a state is as good as a million because of winner take all.  In a proportional system, Obama's ability to keep it close in her states and blow her out in his states is the difference between winning and losing.

If you want to claim that the results show that there are Democrats with doubts about Obama, fine.  But then, you have to admit that there are even more Democrats with doubts about Hillary.

April 24, 2008 9:22 AM

roidubouloi said:

well tep,

If Hillary would drop dead and stop doing the Republicans' work for them, it might be a lot easier for Obama to move toward the center.  His problem with her is that he has to treat her very carefully lest he piss off her core supporters (especially boomer women who really do thing that she is the second coming of the messiah) and compromise his chances in the general election.  If she were a Republican rather than a Democrat, he wouldn't be so constrained.

Hillary is conducting an interesting form of asymmetric warfare -- political terrorism.  She knows that Obama cannot really respond to her in kind so she is free to take whatever pot shot she wants.  It goes without saying that she considers her effect on the Democratic party of no importance whatsoever.  I simply cannot wait until she is carried off stage twitching an foaming at the mouth because it is OVER.

April 24, 2008 9:44 AM

The Plank said:

Jon Chait made this point yesterday, but it bears repeating--especially since it now seems to have taken

April 24, 2008 10:09 AM

bl462 said:

Some of the commentary and analysis of the partisans and the participants on one side or another of the Clinton-Obama Kampf suggests a form of target fixation.  They are so focussed on crushing the other that they seem unaware of the larger context, in particular, how destructive this warfare is to general voter perceptions in the national election, regardless of whoever wins the Democratic nomination.

April 24, 2008 10:57 AM

roidubouloi said:

It is Hillary Rodham Clinton who bears the blame for bringing Karl Rove's tactics into the primary campaign without regard to the effect this has on the Democratic party and its prospects in November.  Good god, even the namby-pamby NY Times, after giving her its endorsemen!, thinks she is over the top.  Party members, including bloggers, are in no sense to blame for pushing back when Obama and his campaign are constrained from doing so.  It is one of the few things that constrains her -- adverse public reaction.  It is a public service to the Democratic party to let the Clinton campaign know at every turn that we are disgusted by her conduct.  Hillary deserves every bit of obloquy we can heap on her head and I have every intention of continuing to do my small part

April 24, 2008 11:58 AM

The Plank said:

With regard to the debate between John Judis and me over Barack Obama's electability, the esteemed

April 24, 2008 12:05 PM

matthawk said:

President Nixon won a landslide victory of George McGovern in 1972, and today the people who voted for Nixon are proud that they did so, right? There is no doubt that in Pennsylvania Hillary ran a Nixonesque campaign. Maybe the lesson we should take from 1972 is that, in order to beat the Republicans, we should adopt a “Southern Strategy” that plays on racial fears; we should adopt a “tough” military posture of “peace with honor,” which means the war in Iraq should continue for another three or more years (basically until the damn thing collapses under our feet); we should run heavily scripted campaigns and (should a Democrat capture the White House) have a closed administration that is afraid to engage the public in dialogue and uses government bureaucracies to harass dissenters. Because we all know that there is nothing more important than winning elections and staying in the White House.

The problem with the McGovern campaign of ’72, some might argue, was not that his ideas were presented to the American public and rejected, but that his message never really got a hearing at all. McGovern made his convention acceptance speech at 3 AM. It went downhill from there. His campaign was overshadowed by the controversy over his handling of his original vice presidential choice, Tom Eagleton’s history of electric shock treatment for clinical depression. Then, of course, he was never able to get out from under being labeled as the “anti-war” candidate so that he could elaborate on his plan for economic conversion, and how that policy would have been good for working class Democrats who voted for Nixon.

The problem, therefore, may not be that Obama is starting out with a constituency that mirrors McGovern’s of 35 years ago, but whether or not Obama will be able to get out from the Clinton smoke screens of Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, flag pins, “Islamic-sounding” middle names, etc. in order to get his message out in a way that appeals to the economic self-interest of that voting bloc. It “helps” that the recession, unfortunately, should be in full swing by the time the November election rolls around. But there is also the possibility of another “terror” attack between now and election day, in which case all bets are off for how that would affect the prospects of any of the candidates.

As a side note, if the Democratic Party or its supporters believe that it is problem for the Party that it has a sizable African American constituency, then African Americans should take that as an invitation to diversify their vote and elect more Republicans. At least the Republicans are closer to the African American community in terms of faith-based institutions and on cultural/religious grounds; also small business development, and vouchers for education. That’s not a bad starting position. The blacks who are most likely to vote aren’t hip hoppers, afterall. Appealing to the African American community on the basis of small business development (as a central part of one’s economic strategy – which is what Nixon did) and on cultural-religious grounds would be a good way to outflank middle class black voters whose jobs are linked to an expanding social welfare state.

April 24, 2008 4:50 PM

littlejs said:

When Hillary and her surrogates say Barack is "unelectable," citing primary statistics, that's simply and despicably their code for "an African American can't win."  (Remember Ed Rendell's comment to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette.)

So, imagine the scenario Hillary is spinning....Barack may win by following the rules but, because he's "unelectable" (read African American) he can't be given the nomination.

Disgusting!!

April 24, 2008 6:01 PM

mollysimon said:

BHLnyc--Andrew Sullivan just linked to your comment.    Now you have tens of thousands of eyeballs reading your post.  

April 24, 2008 6:30 PM

desmax5150 said:

If we're going to compare today's Democratic candidates to failed candidates of the past, how about the comparison of Hilary Clinton to Walter Mondale?  With Walter Mondale, we had an establishment candidate who appealed to the core constituency of the Democratic Party.  He was challenged by a candidate proposing change and a new way of doing things (Gary Hart).  As we know, Mondale prevailed, the Super Delegates supported him, and he went on to loose the election in a landslide to Ronald Reagan.  Isn't extrapolating the results of closed primaries to general elections tricky business?

April 24, 2008 10:46 PM

BHLnyc said:

Thanks, Mollysimon! I just happened to stumble onto it this evening, too. It's nice to know that Andrew must like the debate that goes on here if he's monitoring it.

April 25, 2008 12:36 AM

The Plank said:

The Economist 's Democracy in America blog , musing on these two Plank posts ( here and here ), poses

April 25, 2008 11:54 AM

The Plank said:

Jason links to an Economist blog post which says, of me, "Mr Zengerle's colleague, Jon Chait

April 25, 2008 2:07 PM