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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
17.04.2008
A Tale of Two Debates

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

Or maybe it was just the worst of times.

Two debates took place in Philadelphia tonight. And, conveniently enough, they took place one after another, divided cleanly by a commercial break.

The first debate was garbage time, as ABC moderators Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos took turns confronting the two candidates with questions that have dogged their respective campaigns over the last few weeks.

Obama, the frontrunner, got most of the attention: Exactly which statements of Rev. Jeremiah Wright had he heard--and why hadn’t he denounced the pastor sooner, in stronger terms? Why, years ago, did Obama attend a Chicago fundraiser hosted by one of the Weathermen? Why didn’t Obama wear a flag on his lapel?

At one point, Gibson asked about the now-infamous comments Obama made about “bitter” working-class Americans: “Do you understand that some people in this state find that patronizing and think that you said actually what you meant?”  For a moment, I imagined Obama answering with what I thought might be running through his head. “Of course I know, you dummy. I can read a newspaper.” 

Alas, presidential candidates don’t get to be snide (unless they’re John McCain, in which case they can be anything they want and still get glowing media coverage). Instead, a weary-looking Obama answered all of these familiar questions with what have become his familiar answers. Some are good, some not so good, but in a sense it really didn't matter. The cumulative effect was to turn the debate’s first half into a long infomercial about Obama’s electability issues.

Which, quite possibly, was exactly what Clinton was hoping would happen. Oh, she got some rough treatment too--when Gibson asked a question about her now-discredited story of landing under sniper fire in Bosnia. (Also a silly issue, in my opinion, though that's another story.) But, for the most part, Clinton used this time to criticize Obama--for not leaving his church, for making elitist comments about working-class voters, and so on. In exchange after exchange, Gibson or Stephanoupolos were the ones who raised the issue, but Clinton was the one who wouldn’t let it go.

***

Clinton’s supporters have justified these sorts of tactics by arguing it’s important to test Obama’s ability to defend against them now, before he’s the nominee. And, I admit, there’s a certain logic to that--particularly after listening to Obama explain what he meant in his comment about working class voters feeling bitter.

It was the one question Obama had to know he would get. But, once again, his answer seemed confused: At one point, he seemed to suggest that bitterness allowed politicians to exploit peripheral issues, like gun control or religion, to distract attention away from economics; at another point, he seemed to suggest that bitterness encouraged people to use guns or become religious. One explanation, in other words, was about the behavior of politicans--the other about the behavior of people.

Still, Clinton’s advisers presumably favor engaging in this sort of campaign for another reason: because they believe it makes Clinton seem like a more appealing candidate. That premise strikes me as a lot more dubious, for reasons that became apparent in the second half.

During this second half, Gibson and Stephanopoulos stopped acting like Tim Russert and began asking largely substantive questions that prompted a serious, if truncated, discussion of the issues. First came a question about the Mideast, then taxes and the budget (although Gibson stubbornly pushed an incorrect premise about capital gains taxes). There was nothing about health care prices--a first in the debates, by my reckoning--but plenty on gasoline prices.

I thought Obama came off well in these exchanges--making sound arguments, for instance, in defense of raising taxes on the wealthy. Doing so, he said, would guarantee “that our tax system is fair and that we are able to finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it and that we're able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our schools. And you can't do that for free, and you can't take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children and our grandchildren and then say that you're cutting taxes, which is essentially what John McCain has been talking about.”

Still, as in nearly every previous debate, Clinton came off even better. Obama is no slouch on substance, but (at least to me) he doesn’t seem quite as confident--or make arguments about policy in what I would think are the most persuasive way. It was Clinton, for instance, who stood up for taxes on the grounds that it’s an “investment,” one that ultimately benefits the entire citizenry: “you've got to look at the entire economy. And from my perspective, yes, taxes is a piece of it. But you've got to figure out what is it we would invest in that would make us richer and safer and stronger tomorrow, which would be helping everybody.” 

These are the moments when Clinton looks best, while the earlier sequences--where she kept coming back to the attacks on Obama--is when Clinton looks worst. And recent polling offers some evidence to suggest voters see it that way, too. Obama took a hit after the Wright controversy, but it was Clinton whose numbers ultimately fell more (although that may have been more a product of the Bosnia controversy). Similarly, the latest polls in Pennsylvania show him closing the gap with Clinton, despite the remarks about working-class voters--although the polling hasn’t yet captured the full reaction.

So I don’t think Clinton did herself any favors by harping on Obama’s electability issues, whether they be real or imagined. Unfortunately, I don’t think Obama made such a great impression, either--since, like it or not, he spent at least half the night deflecting these same old charges all over again.

Like I said, the worst of times.

--Jonathan Cohn

Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:04 AM with 78 comment(s)

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teplukhin2you said:

"Obama is no slouch on substance, but (at least to me) he doesn’t seem quite as confident--or make arguments about policy in what I would think are the most persuasive way. "

Bingo. Obama doesn't PERSUADE anyone. He gets by on glibness and glamour.

Mr Cohn, curious to know your thoughts on the following proposition:

If you were to set a transcript of his arguments on any particular issue next to those of fellow left-libs living and departed (Barney F, Paul Wellstone, Russ F, Ron Wyden), I'd wager that Obama's would be the least compelling, the least interesting, the least thoughtful of the bunch. Am I wrong?

There's nothing wrong with glamour-- lord knows we need some-- but Obama's just not as deep as he should be. I'm sure the logic of running right after W was compelling, but let's be honest: the man just isn't there yet. He's going to have a very rough road in the general election.

April 17, 2008 1:32 AM

Annabella2 said:

Very much as I saw it also.  Clinton was really very forceful and assured in her answers... Obama searched for words too much and did not get his points across as well as he might have.  And the first half was just media at its very worst, enablers of what is so bad in our public discourse, although perhaps inevitable as well.

The most impressive is the polls reported in the Washington Post which show Hillary tanking and Obama on the rise, so maybe the old Gotcha, swiftboating politics simply is not working as well... maybe it was most effective when things didn't look as bleak on all fronts as they now do and the electorate could indulge itself in such superficial political discourse.

So it would appear that Hillary's attacks are making Obama stronger...

April 17, 2008 1:36 AM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

I think the two debates are 1) The debate itsellf (both halfs) and 2) The debate about the debate as to whether it served it's purpose... namely (just in case anyone forgot) to inform voters in a way that helps them make up their minds.

Clearly folks who are still undecided don't need to hear about reverend Wright or flag lapels (again, again, again) or Hillary's Bosnia trip, although some discussion of Bitter-gate was probably in order.  When in the debate should it have come? Probably after one or two issues of substance, gas prices, the economy, guns and then (perfect segway) bitter-gate.

ABC chose a different route, one that will disgrace them and their moderators for years to come.  They lost the debate and so did we.

April 17, 2008 1:46 AM

jacobt1 said:

My impression after watching the debate is that Obama is not that smart.

April 17, 2008 2:05 AM

letsinb said:

"For a moment, I imagined Obama answering with what I thought might be running through his head. 'Of course I know, you dummy. I can read a newspaper.'"

That would have been AWEsome. I was so hoping that after being asked to make a solemn vow of tax chastity (taxstity?) one or the other would have said, "I promise you one thing, I'm gonna tax the hell outta both you two asses."

April 17, 2008 2:06 AM

dcshungu said:

I just saw some of the debate. That the ABC "Inquisitors" were so awful and Hillary was able to hold her own speaks volumes about who is better equipped to take on McCain and the GOP, but that might be just me. A performance such as the one Obama gave tonight, his purported "ambush" by the ABC "Inquisitiors" notwithstanding, gives little confidence that he'd be able to go the distance against McCain and the GOP attack dogs. One thing is very clear now, I think: Put Obama on a stage, solo, with a lectern and prepared remarks and you have the great orator who has wowed the crowds; on the other hand, put him on a stage with others in "hostile" environment, where he has to think on his feet and improvise without Plouffe, and, pouff!,  you get a candidate so tentative and unsure of himself that his preparedness to assume the position of CEO of America after less than a full term in the US Senate becomes questionable. Only the superdelegates can now stop the looming Dem trainwreck that would be a McCain-Obama GE contest....

Bonsoir et bonne nuit, mesdames et messieurs!

April 17, 2008 3:08 AM

eharder2 said:

blah blah blah...I have politics fatigue.  Considering that I'm one of those few and far between who have a membership to magazines like TNR then I'm betting most people have politics fatigue.  Are the particularities of the 20th or whatever primary debate really going to make any difference.  

April 17, 2008 3:25 AM

mmathog said:

That's a good analysis dcshugu, for a hillbot (I'm kidding!) you've got some real talent.

From my point of view, the only flaw I see in your argument? I think McCain is WAY weaker than you think he is. As for Obama, I think he provides a starker contrast... but you may be right, she might be the stronger candidate...

April 17, 2008 3:33 AM

teplukhin2you said:

what cdshungu said. Obama's a rookie. Dukakis redux. He's going to have a rough time in the GE

April 17, 2008 3:51 AM

nturner said:

Obama is an awesome teleprompter-reader -- probably better than I've ever seen!

Hillary is awesome when confrunting substantive, detailed questions that require substantive, detailed answers.  

So judging from the debates, which of these people deserves to be President of the United States?

April 17, 2008 4:00 AM

colgle said:

Is it just me or is there a highly partisan and negative comment about Obama at the beginning of every feedback list on one of these articles, its almost as if someone is being paid to make sure the first thing people read after these articles is woefully misrepresenting Obama....

April 17, 2008 5:58 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

bingo colgle.  

Yes, its too bad about Obama's intelligence, dontcha know.  A pity, that one.  Acxtually jacob - what's clear is  how very unintelligent you are.  Dumb as a stump.

This entire debate (the 26th) was a disgrace of epic proportions to the MSM.  

April 17, 2008 6:15 AM

Robert Powell said:

HILLARY FOR SENATE MAJORITY LEADER!!

Obama will kick ass unless he signs up Bob Schrum to head his GE campaign. Then, we'll see about those "depth" concerns. I'm voting for the candidate who appears to have the most supple intelligence. If everything goes according to plan, both McCain and Hillary might be superior presidents. But things NEVER go according to plan.

April 17, 2008 6:52 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

"Hillary is awesome when confrunting substantive, detailed questions that require substantive, detailed answers."

Perhaps you can share with us one question of substance.  Harping on 60's radicals and lapel pins is just stupidity, an insult to the intelligence.  How did Hillary answer the questions on health care, the war, intelligence, the environment - oops there werent any.  So she gets off on Rovian style attacks that make Obama haters have orgasms.  Wow, thats deep.

No, I think this country deserves much better than Hillary Clinton's amoral narcisissm and I look forward to her getting what she deserves.

April 17, 2008 7:32 AM

fougasseu said:

Hillary's use of Ayers is the ugliest campaign tactic since the attack on Max Cleland. The first half hour - or longer - was all Talk Radio: "Wright", "bitter", "Ayers", "Farakhan", et al. And anyone who has worked in broadcast production knows it was a canned, coordinated performance between Stephanopoulos and Clinton. She was virtually answering the Ayers question before he finished asking it. Watch her body language. She wasn't listening to the question - she was leaning into it.

To think that in the last, pivotal debate that a questioner is a former (former?) high-level Clinton operative (read Stephanopoulos' bio) is macabre. It has been commented often how George hates Obama. It comes through in every encounter.

Looks like three white Boomers managed to gang tackle the uppity front runner last night. Well done, America. Another night we can all be proud of. I wonder how many drug dealers Obama rubbed shoulders with in the streets of Chicago? Let's hear from them.

Now about Kazahstan, etc. - no interest.

April 17, 2008 8:08 AM

tec619 said:

RP:

Bob Shrum!? He 's a serial loser.

April 17, 2008 8:11 AM

roidubouloi said:

I don't know how many of you have actually had the opportunity to listen to Hillary Clinton from about 15 feet away.  I've had the "pleasure" several times, in each case when she was speaking to groups of committed Democrats -- donors and/or party officials and committeemembers.  On each occasion, about 60 seconds into her remarks, I have felt like I wanted to stuff my ears with cotton.  Chalk on a blackboard.  Those who imagine that she would be either effective candidate (How's that going so far?) or an effective president, clearly know absolutely nothing at all about how politics is actually practiced.  Ignorant as tree stumps.

This debate will change absolutely nothing.  As is perfectly evident from the posts above, all it will do is reinforce the prior disposition or everyone toward the candidates -- which means Obama is still going to win the nomination just as he was yesterday prior to the debate.

April 17, 2008 8:14 AM

bigfish said:

I watched the debate (as much as I could.  For about an hour, my roommate and I were arguing about Gen. Patreus.  No joke.)  I admit that I support Obama, but I thought the debate was silly.  Obama has had to answer the same questions about the same non-issues (Wright, lapel pin, Ayers) so many times, I'm getting annoyed with the questions.  (For the record, I'm annoyed with sniper-gate too).  I bet Obama would be rolling his eyes if he were watching the debate instead of participating in it.  I certainly was.  Can we please talk about the issues?  Or even questions about governing style?  (How would you select your cabinet?  Would you roll back some of the Bush administration's grabs of executive power?)  Some issues are important, and some issues aren't.  Unfortunately, ABC news, like much of the media, can't tell the difference.

April 17, 2008 8:16 AM

nturner said:

Wandreycer1,

Look, we don't question Obama's intelligence generally, but we certainly challenge the notion that he embodies supernatural genius (which the press would have us believe), for such intelligence, if it existed, would or should manifest itself precisely in extemporaneous debates.  At the very least, politics is about relative choices, and if Hillary's depth and breadth of knowledge, her debating proficiency, and her general wonkishness demonstrate anything, it's that Obama loses out in a relative comparison to Senator Clinton.  She's one fiercely intelligent woman!  And she, quite simply, is better able to translate that intelligence into coherent, fluid, detailed answers.

So Wandreycer1.... After having read more than a few of your posts lately, I can say with healthy confidence that you have NO business denigrating anybody else's intelligence, especially Jacob's.

In fact, just ten minutes ago, you accused me of bigotry and racism -- which is an accusation that only stands up to scrutiny if the person doing the scrutinizing doesn't know the definition of "milquetoast," "complain," "cry," and/or "moan."  Alas, you have shown yourself to be such a person.  All in all, the point I was CLEARLY making in MY post was that Obama is a cry-baby and so are his supporters.  He gets ONE debate in which the moderators don't treat him as if he were the incarnate Son of God, and his campaign's only response is to attack ABC!  Come on!  

So I'll repeat myself with a clarity befitting your diminished intellectual gifts:  Elites may tolerate weakness in a potential president, but hard working, patriotic Americans -- who don't and shouldn't  apologize for American strength and who don't "blame America first" in their churches -- can't stand political pussies, because if you can't stand up to a little scrutiny in Philadelphia, then how the hell can you stand up to Ahmadinejad in Tehran?

April 17, 2008 8:17 AM

JackR said:

I agree that the ABC duo were not terrific, but even as an Obama supporter, I could not deny that my candidate got his ass kicked in the debate.  On substance, Hillary was clearer, crisper, and appeared more self-confident.  On their respective gaffes, Clinton twisted the knife in the Wright and Bittergate wounds, while Obama gave her a chivalrous pass on Snipergate and on her pervasive dishonesty.  I hope not too many Pennsylvania primary voters were watching.

April 17, 2008 8:22 AM

JackR said:

Obama looked glum through the whole debate.  For good reason, unfortunately.  The glummer he looked, the glummer I felt.

April 17, 2008 8:48 AM

jts44 said:

How things have changed since the early days of the primary. Now that Obama's magic has lost it's luster and voters are seeing him as just another politician, Dems are back to choosing the lesser of two evils, which seems to me to be the decision voters always face.  Maybe it's the way things should be.

I would what things would be like now had that magic lost it's luster earlier in the campaign.

April 17, 2008 8:49 AM

ChanRobt said:

Cohn writes, "...a weary-looking Obama answered all of these familiar questions with what have become his familiar answers. ...The cumulative effect was to turn the debate’s first half into a long infomercial about Obama’s electability issues....Which, quite possibly, was exactly what Clinton was hoping would happen. Oh, she got some rough treatment too--when Gibson asked a question about her now-discredited story of landing under sniper fire in Bosnia. (Also a silly issue, in my opinion..."

Why all this weariness, Jonathan?  With the exception of the flag lapel pin, these are all legitimate issues, some of which-- the Ayres association-- have not been addressed.

And, if Hillary's outright lying about her supposed foreign warfare exploits are a "silly issue," please excuse your lessors in sophistication for caring about lying by a presidential aspirant.  Some of us are old enough to remember when such things mattered.

April 17, 2008 9:11 AM

roidubouloi said:

Gee, jts44, and I wonder what things would have been like if Hillary had learned how to run for elective office before she began running for president.  Tough to learn on the job.  Too bad she wasn't ready on Day 1.

April 17, 2008 9:18 AM

roidubouloi said:

On one point, Hillary really does have more relevant experience than Obama.  

I ran for local public office, at the age of 49.  The whole campaign lasted about 6 months.  By the end of it, I wanted to tear my hair out (not least from listening to myself say the same thing over and over again) and was as tired as I think I have ever been.  I recall wondering what type of super-human has the stamina to run for president as that little-bitty campaign had me completely wrung out.  Hillary has lived through two presidential campaigns and has, no doubt, a much better sense than Obama of the ebb and flow and what it takes to manage your own energy.  

Obama is going to have to learn how to manage his physical resources so that he is not weary at the wrong times.  

On the other hand, once he does this, his youth will be a huge asset in the general.  McCain is going to be falling off his feet.  He is not the most vigorous 71-year old.  We tend to forget that Reagan was quite remarkable in this respect, not at all typical.

April 17, 2008 9:28 AM

ironyroad said:

Also, the debate sounded rather differently on the radio.  Obama came across as much more poised and alert.  His answers sounded like sentences that connected with one another.  In contrast to McCain, there's no competition.  McCain sounds mawkish and unconvincing.

April 17, 2008 9:51 AM

Robert Powell said:

One can hardly blame Obama for being "weary". I'm just glad he has the self-discipline to avoid rolling his eyes on camera as the stupidity continues to roll on. It must require enormous control to refrain from punching someone in the nose during these travesty events.

I'm reminded of one of my favorites from the Sixties, The Village Fugs great number named "River of Shit". Sanders, backed up by the rest of the group harmonizing the title line, launched into a prose rap to the effect, "...Who dealt this mess? I mean, was George Washington the lesser of two evils?"

tec--I KNOW! That's why I wrote, "Obama will kick ass UNLESS he signs up Schrum."

April 17, 2008 10:00 AM

ileonard said:

I thought Obama was doing his best not to appear "arrogant" since that seems to be the subtext of all the confused complaints about him. Being intelligent and rational is apparently enough to get you branded  arrogant. So, trying not to look arrogant while answering idiotic questions about whether you are an unpatriotic lying scumbag and continuing to maintain a respectful attitude toward your opponent, whose glee at the stupid questions is all too obvious....trying doing that with one hand tied behind you and bullets whizzing past your ears... I think he was amazing. I'm Canadian and don't have a vote but if you don't elect this man president you are dolts.

As for the famous "cling" comments, I believe he was responding to a question from someone who would be canvassing for him and wanted to know what approach would be best with rural Pennsylvanian voters... and what he said was, in essence, that it's not surprising that those voters cling to the Republicans, who promise them that God is in the Republican party and owns guns. If I understand what he meant, he was advising the questioner not to be prejudiced against those people, but to understand their situation and their history.

The opposite of arrogant.

April 17, 2008 10:08 AM

irunkle said:

Watching the "journalists" last night reminded me of why Bush got a free ride form the US public into Iraq - no real journalism to be found. However, European newspapers gave clear info leading up to the invasion, and, PRESTO, the vast majority of Europeans thought it was a mistake to not let the UN inspectors have more time. Tabloid journalism- concentrate on inanities and gossip, and NEVER really look at the real issues, the ones that determine our future and that of our children. AND Hillary came off terribly in this sense, encouraging TABLOID vs issues debate. In last night's debate, the true loser was ABC, aided and abetted by Hillary Clinton. It's clear why the US is so much worse off than 8 years ago - it's not only BUSH, it's the US press.  

April 17, 2008 10:08 AM

sabatia said:

God Bless The Fugs!

Tuli(if he is still alive, maybe even if not) For President.

Kill for Peace

Let's go see them live at Cafe AuGoGo. Stoned.

April 17, 2008 10:14 AM

wyllie said:

One thing that Obama said a number of times with respect to the increasingly stupid questions at the beginning of the debate is that  "the American people are smarter than that".    It's that respect for the American people that drives his popularity.

April 17, 2008 10:29 AM

blackton said:

"There's nothing wrong with glamour-- lord knows we need some-- but Reagan's just not as deep as he should be. I'm sure the logic of running right after Carter was compelling, but let's be honest: the man just isn't there yet. He's going to have a very rough road in the general election."

Thank God I didn't watch the debate last night, and I sure as hell hope it is the last. I can't believe many other people watched it either. A whole hour on non-issues, and no matter what Channy says, the flag lapel issue and the like is about as useless an issue that exists. Take a look at pictures of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, nary a flag pin in sight, I guess they weren't true Americans.

The dollar and the economy is tanking, gas prices spiking, stock market stock sputtering, housing costs tanking. I sometimes doubt my decision to be an expat, I enjoy the adventure but miss the familiar, and I thought that after 8 years of incompetent shrubbery Americans might have learned their lesson. Since the audience members didn't seem to boo the initial line of questioning, I guess I am wrong. Maybe the American people deserve the shit storm they now live in. Due to the continuing deterioration of the dollar, and the tremendous growth in the Chinese economy my house in Shanghai has now quintupled in value. Please, keep up your stupidity America, make the Democrats are unelectable and in 3 or 4 years I can sell my house in China and retire.

The scaryily funny thing, the dollar is even tanking next to the Mexican peso, having lost 10% of its value. I thought my moving here and getting paid in pesos was a relative act of charity. Not so much anymore.

April 17, 2008 10:35 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

Nturner: please allow me to underscore: I stand by everything  I said to both you and jacob.  

Ignorant, hateful, bigoted.  Like most Hillaryistas, you can dish it out but you cannot take it in any way - whine, complain, moan, and play the victim after speweing hate and ignorance and being called on it - standard stuff.  I just call you on your bigotry and will continue to do so.  Deal with it.

April 17, 2008 10:35 AM

roidubouloi said:

Robert Powell,

Of course Obama, or Hillary for that matter, cannot be blamed for being weary.  Any normal person would be. The process is exhausting at every level.  However, in order to succeed Obama, still has to learn when to put out and when to conserve is energies so that he is not flat at critical moments.  It is just part of the discipline of campaigning -- a process that everyone should have to go through, in the sense that it would change a lot of people's perspective on elections and simultaneously a process that no one should have to go through as it is inhuman (except that there is no better alternative).

April 17, 2008 10:36 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

The mentality that would find last night's debate in any way edifying deserves contempt.  I'll be happy to provide it. Count on it.

Glad to see the polls agree with me this morning.  Rove-Hillaryism is dead.  Looking forward to watching rigor mortis set it.

April 17, 2008 10:38 AM

CharlesFosterKane said:

Thank God I didn't watch this debate. Wake me up when the goddamn primary season is over.

April 17, 2008 11:13 AM

CharlesFosterKane said:

Thank God I didn't watch this debate. Wake me up when the goddamn primary season is over.

April 17, 2008 11:13 AM

esmense said:

Our cultural expectation is that a woman (expected to be sensitive to other's feelings and protective) will stand by a man, and actively defend him, when he is being criticized or humiliated in some public way. Even when they are in a competitive situation with that man. We don't of course expect men to do so, with each other or with woman who have placed themselves on an equal and competitive footing. In fact, a man who didn't press an advantage over such things would be considered a weakling and a fool. No one has ever criticized Obama for repeating and supporting, much less for failing to defend Clinton from, freak show character attacks. When he implies that she is a dishonest person, will "do or say anything" to get elected, etc. (direct quote from one of his attack ads), swipes at her with the "cookie baking" line, etc., he is building on and benefitting from the Republican freak show attacks that have been leveled at her since she was first lady. Doing so is a huge part of his campaign strategy (so much so that I worry about the campaign deflating in a drastic way once Clinton is out of the picture.)

This dynamic puts Clinton is in a bind; any attempt, no matter how mild, to take advantage of the cultural controversies swirling around Obama, and even any failure to defend him from them, makes her more "unlikeable."  On the other hand, Obama's can pile on and take full advantage of any such freak show controversies surrounding her -- with persistent, blatantly disdainful, mocking and disrespectful references to such controversies  -- the Bosnia silliness, calling her foreign policy experience as "teas." mocking her as "Annie Oakley" when she recites a bit of true biography, etc.,etc., and he is applauded for it. If Clinton ever mocked Obama in this manner, the outcry would be overwhelming.

April 17, 2008 11:22 AM

BHLnyc said:

Yes, he looked a little exhausted, but Obama chose his words with extreme care, he answered all the questions properly and was more than standing at the end of the night. I haven't actually read many complaints about the substance of his answers, only complaints that he somehow "fumbled" because we didn't see as much of his trademark easy charm. How is this a loss?

April 17, 2008 11:37 AM

roidubouloi said:

Yes, and the public response if Obama had said "all the white candidates are ganging up on me" would be?  The public response if Obama claimed that his candidacy was "disadvantaged by his race" would be?

Face it, Hillary is not losing because she's a woman.  Hillary is losing because she is a crappy politician, a policy wonk with no personal appeal.  All of her fellow wonks are long dead and buried in this campaign, although they, most notably Biden, had far more of everything Hillary claims for herself.  If Hillary were not a woman, if she did not enjoy unusual celebrity for the mere fact of being married to Bill Clinton, were she not able to summon feminists and women of a her own generation to sustain her campaign on life support, her campaign would have failed months ago with hardly a whisper.

None of it matters in the end.  Hillary has lost and we are only waiting for the carrier pigeons to bring us the news.

April 17, 2008 11:40 AM

AlanSP said:

I thought Hillary did pretty well in the policy part of the debate, but I think she misplayed her responses to all of the negative issues for Obama (bittergate, Wright, Ayers, etc.).  In each case, she tried to drive the knife in further, but this was unnecessary.  Negative messages carry far more weight coming from a "neutral" source like the moderators than they do coming from an electoral opponent.  There was no reason for her to attack when more credible sources were there doing it for her.  Hillary just made herself look petty in those cases.  She would have been better off with more neutral responses like "It's up to the voters to decide whether that's important."

April 17, 2008 11:44 AM

roidubouloi said:

The latest polls (nothing dated today however) show Obama widening his lead over Hillary relative to McCain, widening his lead over Hilllary nationally in head to head polling, and continuing to narrow Hillary's lead in PA.  If he can get it below 5% next Tuesday, she may be finished even before NC.  Not the she will bow out, but the tipping point may be reached in which public opinion and super-delegate opinion finally sweeps her away.  

And when that happens, pccostello will tell us how she is about to start winning and jacobt, jmkerr, and dschungu will tell us that  Obama hasn't "closed the deal" and that things are about to turn for Hillary. esmense will complain that Hillary was done in by misogyny, all terribly unfair.  All the usual suspects will say all the usual things without pausing to note that Obama has secured the party's nomination.

April 17, 2008 12:03 PM

Mr.Awesome said:

I thought it was interesting that they continued to show the TEAM HILLARY section of Chelsea, Mayor Nutter, Governor Rendell, and Wesley Clark in the stands. Four high profile Clinton supporters in the stands being flashed multiple times. A case of not so subliminal messaging.

April 17, 2008 12:10 PM

jkolic said:

If one were to pick the weakest debate out of all 21, this one would surely be a sharp candidate.

I agree with Jon, ABC did lose out. Its pretentious attempts to create some drama by grilling the frontrunner with nonissue character-assassination type questions was pathetic. (So was the reference to Bosnia statement, in her case). We are only lucky we did not hear Gibson call Hillary out on her 1995 Screwgate - that would surely have rounded off the tediously long, indomitably stupid section of this poor and shallow face-off.

I agree with the strategy of forcing candidates to answer tough questions in the primary as a means of getting them to prepare for Republican slime machine attacks in GE. However, I do also believe that voters of Pennsylvania, first and foremost, cared to hear what the candidates actually meant to do about the economy in freefall as well as about a whole range of issues weighing over our collective head at a time of perfect (shit) storm. Moreover, we have all already heard explanations of each any every controversy brought up (e.g. Wright, lapel pins, comments about bitternes, et cetera), so why harp on such trivialities over and over again? I agree with whoemever said Obama (and for that matter, Clinton too) was to be commanded for not rolling eyes at the moderators. I know I would.

I have held for some time now that debates, at this point, are rather meaningless. But now it seems pretty apparent that they are not merely meaningless, they are irritating as well.

April 17, 2008 12:13 PM

WoodyBombay said:

esmense,

That ranks among some of the worst analysis I've ever read. The entire first half of the debate was Republican Freak Show time, and it was aimed directly at Obama, not HRC. Stephanopoulos took debate moderating notes from Sean Freaking Hannity, for crying out loud. HRC gleefully joined in like the linebacker who always shows up after the tackle and piles on.

I may be the most unlucky debate watcher of the night - I had some business to attend to, and I only could watch the first 45 minutes in the first place. So all I saw was the disgrace. The only times I felt anything other than nausea was when Obama reminded everyone of Hillary's "baking cookies" crack.  That was a stark reminder to HRC that 1) she's a real pro when it comes to arrogance, and 2) what a breathtaking hypocrite she is for pointing to the speck in Obama's eye and ignoring the log in hers. Of course, Obama also got off a line about how inane the questions were, but it wasn't strong enough. I was hoping he'd look at his watch and say, "We've been up here for what, 40 minutes now, and you haven't asked a single question about Iraq or the economy or the environment. What the hell is up with that?"

As for this -- "When he implies that she is a dishonest person, will "do or say anything" to get elected, etc. (direct quote from one of his attack ads)" -- you know why he can say that? Because it's true.

April 17, 2008 12:26 PM

boneill said:

No, roi, jacob will say "i dun't (sic) think obma (sic) is smart".  

I can't wait for this to be over, if only so that the trolls who post only on Hillary/Obama threads will fade away.  There are other conversations, kids (usually- more of them, please, TNR?).  Feel free to join in.

April 17, 2008 12:26 PM

richardhair said:

My only complaint about the debate is that George Stephanopoulos very ingraciously neglected to thank the class of sixth-graders who wrote his questions.

April 17, 2008 12:31 PM

mghogwild said:

Completly off topic, but did anyone hear our President's response to the Pope's speech at the White House?  "Thank you your holiness. Awesome speech."  I was watching ABC Nightly News and I thought I heard him say it, but wasn't completly sure until The Daily Show got a hold of it.  Why is the most credible news on Comedy Central?

April 17, 2008 12:31 PM

boneill said:

I know this is old, but I feel a little compelled to respond to nturner, at least his last idiotic paragraph.

"So I'll repeat myself with a clarity befitting your diminished intellectual gifts:"  You, sir, are a dick.

"Elites" (TALKING POINT- BORING) may tolerate weakness (WEAKNESS? ABSURD) in a potential president, but hard working, patriotic Americans (THIS IS EITHER A REPUBLICAN TALKNG POINT OR A TRUCK COMMERCIAL: EITHER WAY IT IS BORING AND MEANINGLESS AND INSULTING. NO ONE WHO SUPPORTS OBAMA, LEADING IN THE POLLS AND VOTES, IS PATRIOTIC?) -- who don't and shouldn't  apologize for American strength (HE DOESN'T. HE CHALLENGES US TO USE IT WELL) and who don't "blame America first" (HE DIDN'T)in their churches -- can't stand political pussies,(YOUR USE OF ALLITERATION ALMOST MAKES UP FOR BEING JUVENILE, BUT NOT REALLY) because if you can't stand up to a little scrutiny in Philadelphia,(HE IS GAINING IN THE POLLS. IT THINK HE STOOD UP TO IT) then how the hell can you stand up to Ahmadinejad in Tehran? (WITH INTELLIGENCE AND AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD.  THE DESIRE TO BE THE MOST TUMESCENT STAND-UPPER IS WHAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS)

Also, and this is a point so elemental my brain is trying to cut off oxygen so as to not have to write it...running in  aprimary is different that dealing with the complexities of the Middle East, or anywhere.  The two don't correlate.   At all.  It is, again, a Republican talking point to say something like that.  

April 17, 2008 12:34 PM

wgcreeley said:

The whole nasty debacle made me miss John Edwards.

Say what you want about the man - and I remember that many here already have - but he could talk about the economic fears of the middle class in a powerful and direct way. That's something Obama absolutely failed to do last night, at least from where I was sitting.

I'm extremely nervous about President McCain.

April 17, 2008 12:38 PM

ctrogers said:

Good article!

April 17, 2008 12:49 PM

WoodyBombay said:

boneill,

Tip of the cap!

April 17, 2008 12:52 PM

blackton said:

bone, I am getting so freaking tired of this already, and we still have nearly 2 more months of this freak show to go.

If this were a normal election (ie one not following a Presidency of epic disaster) I would be really worried right now. The hatred (and it is hatred) between the Hillary crew and the Obama crew is so intense that a normal election cycle the Democrats would be killed in November. But in the end, come November people are going to say "yeah, Obama got issues, but fuck this, we can't have another 4  years of this." and he will win, maybe not as much as he could have, but he will win nonetheless.

Yeah, I realize that the Hillary crew here will vote for McCain, but obsessives like us are really marginal.

April 17, 2008 12:53 PM

blackton said:

bone, I skip over nturner, he isn't even worth the laugh anymore. I am convinced he is a 15 year old. jkolic is one of the few Hillary supporters whose intelligence stands out. Both of my parents support Hillary (my mother for admittedly silly reasons, Oprah supports Obama, she hate Oprah, etc.) but my father basically told me for all her faults, Hillary is smart, and that he doesn't believe America will elect a black man for President, and especially not one with the name of Barack Hussein Obama. So I don't argue this with my father. I think (hope) he is wrong, and that is that. But nturner is just gibberish, your thrashing him was like watching Mike Tyson pummel Woody Allen.

April 17, 2008 1:05 PM

WoodyBombay said:

Actually, there was one more very good moment in the debate: When Clinton was asked if Obama could win in November, she hemmed and hawed and finally said "Yes, yes, yes."

With that, she completely undercut her reason for staying in the primary race. So from here on out she can only seriously be considered a McCain campaign surrogate.

April 17, 2008 1:09 PM

boneill said:

Thanks Woody, blackie.  I normally would ignore nturner, but not when he goes after wandrey like that.  I know she is far more capable than I am of defending herself, but rancid insults like that need to be answered.  And, over the internet, no one can punch me.  So it is a win-win!

But you are right.  I am so tired of this.  I posted something entirely meaningless on the nuke thread just to blab about something else.  Especailly because, as woody astutely pointed out, Hillary undercut her raison d'etre last night.  This needs to end.

April 17, 2008 1:42 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Still waiting for an answer to my question as to whether Obama's more persuasive, thoughtful, gutsy etc than other more experienced liberal champions in Congress: Braney Frank, Ron Wyden, the late Paul Wellstone....

Yes, yes, of course Obama has charm and glamour. But that's not what I'm asking about. Does he PERSUADE people to support the liberal agenda?

Can he lead a movement, ie, convince significant numbers of people to move in a direction they're not now inclined to pursue?

If not, then why, other than his glamour and lifestory, is he the one we're choosing to succeed Bush now? Couldn't we have done better than this?

April 17, 2008 1:46 PM

boneill said:

Tep, I don't know about more gutsy than those guys.  We have to accept a disappointing standard- there is a ceiling to how gutsy you can be to become President.  Wellstone, Wyden and Frank knew they were never going to be POTUS (Frank for obvious is wildly depressing reasons).  

But I think Obama's gift is the soft sell- is packaging liberal ideas in ways that people find palatable.  THis isn't compromise, it is understanding your opposition.  Look at the police interrogations.  You might say tha tis small potatoes, but the Police Union was dead against it, and they are a pretty powerful consituency.  Obama got his way without making any enemies.  He has talents.  He might not be the bravest or most talented pol we've ever had, true- but the bravest politicians have no chance of carrying our ideals into the White House.  

April 17, 2008 2:05 PM

blackton said:

tep, you are not waiting for an answer. Honestly, who do you expect to answer it, God? Rhetorical questions like this are useless at this point. Obama, by virtue of winning the primaries, has won the right to lose in November. Hey, I preferred Hart to Mondale, Edwards to Kerry, Bradley to Gore (I liked Bubba in 92). I didn't care for anybody in 88. I lost most of those races, and the Dems lost in November. So be it. Hart would have lost to Reagan anyway, Edwards and Bradley impossible to say, but so be it. Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry all won the right to lose. I accepted it, and then voted for who I wanted to in November, I didn't howl at the moon at the unfairness.

The die is cast. Accept it.

April 17, 2008 2:15 PM

JEFF FREY said:

teplukhin, I don't know whether Obama is more persuasive, gutsy, etc than Barney Frank, Ro Wyden, the late Paul Wellstone or the other person you mentioned, but none of the people on your list have a chance in hell of ever being elected President, and Obama does.

Our candidate doesn't have to be the perfect politician, best at everything. We just want to nominate the person we think would be the best President.

April 17, 2008 2:22 PM

blackton said:

Jeff Frey, well if Paul Wellstone did return, I would have to give him good odds on being elected, or worshipped, or driven out with pitchforks, but I guarantee it won't be a typical campaign.

April 17, 2008 2:36 PM

The Plank said:

Far be it for me to justify last night's debate performance by ABC hosts Charlie Gibson and George

April 17, 2008 3:04 PM

teplukhin2you said:

blackie, I'm sincere. I really don't understand the fascination with Obama. There are plenty of un-W's available to us. Plenty of people who are much more adept at connecting with the crucial working-class white constituency that makes or breaks us every four years. Why him? Why now rather than 4-8 years from now?

April 17, 2008 3:32 PM

jkolic said:

Blackton,

Entirely off the topic, but thanks for the compliment. Debating intelligent opponents is my favorite sport and I really enjoy being able to do that here on TNR.

April 17, 2008 3:50 PM

boneill said:

jkolic, my above vitrol aside, I'd like to second blackton.  

April 17, 2008 4:03 PM

jkolic said:

Boneill,

Then I must emphasize that my post applies to you as well. Looking forward to more (hopefully, vitriol-free) exchanges on TNR - though I fear we will merely be agreeing with each other once a Democratic candidate faces off with McCain in GE.

April 17, 2008 4:26 PM

psantillana said:

nturner - don't say "quite simply" - it's meaningless and annoying.

esmense - how sh!tty does a woman have to be for you to quit her?

tep, I - and others - have answered your question so many times that I can't believe you really want to know. You're just waiting for another cue to say "empty suit!" Nobody wants to get Charlie Browned again, it's too depressing.

It's a nice day out, I'm going to take my cat for a walk.

April 17, 2008 4:49 PM

turnipauto said:

We're going to lose the god-damned presidency again.  I can't frigg'n stand it.  How, how, HOW could the Democrats screw this one up?  

April 17, 2008 8:29 PM

tomeg said:

turnipauto,

We (you and I and others here) don't know that Democrats will lose the Presidency - some thing we'll win.

But, if we lose it will be because the party is staking out politically untenable positions on the  two issues most in voters' minds: the war, and the economy.

1) The war: however unpopular it is and unpopular Bush's handling of it, in their gut the American people know it is going to be a long haul that cannot be reversed with any proposal of a quick fix. That both Democratic candidates declare their unwavering intention to end the war for their stated reasons by means of their simplistic and undeveloped (or underdeveloped) plans amounts to a pre-election abdication of responsibility. Yeah, we all hate the war we are fighting and the way we are fighting it but unilateral withdrawal is impossible; to propose it lacking any evidence that it could work is unserious.

2) The economy: what is troubling people the most about their declining position is that it is structural, a result of many years in the making therefore many years in reversing, and people know it will be lengthy and painful, if it can be done at all. That both candidates propose raising taxes on some or any segment of the population at such a time for any reason - even and including short-term relief - isn't reassuring or hope-inspiring; it is a copout and a rip-off.

McCain doesn't side-step either of these issues and he isn't afraid of taking the flak to seek a feasible and responsible plan of action to address them. If Democrats can't understand how that might undermine their chances of taking the White HOuse and obtaining a real working majority in Congress, we are blind and quite frankly unworthy of consideration for assuming leadership.

April 17, 2008 9:28 PM

ironyroad said:

So far, McCain has side-stepped both issues.  Iraq is a distraction from the real war against Islamic terrorism and a couple of other potential threats that we have to fight, but the insanity created by Bush can't just be reversed.  What's not a real plan is to keep up the fantasy that Iraq is the "primary front on the war on terrorism" long after everyone has recognized that it's the "front" that we created after we already had one.

Likewise a knee-jerk Republican embrace of the anti-government solution to everything from toothache to the future of our former industrial base is utterly useless if a reinvigoration of government responsibility and targeted public sector action is exactly what's needed.  I agree that we could lose the presidency but it won't be because our candidates haven't grasped the issues and tried to see beyond the Republican boilerplate of the last 8 years.

April 17, 2008 10:14 PM

matthawk said:

Frankly, the Clinton campaign represents another era of politics that is irrelevant to the current political scene. Were Hillary to capture the nomination of the Democratic Party it would be a race between two irrelevant candidates in which the person with the least negatives and the highest appeal to swing voters, John McCain, would win. McCain, after all, is likeable enough and seems to be a decent man. Although rooted in the past, he has so far decided to pass on invitations to resort to the tactics that characterize the current Clinton campaign.

But if Barack Obama captures the Democratic nomination it will be a different ballgame altogether. The contrast between the old politics of John McCain will not be able to stand up against the transcendent politics that Obama embodies. People like McCain and Clinton frequently mock Obama’s campaign as being all about the personality and symbolism of Barack Obama. They say that Obama thinks he is the political messiah to save the country from the course it is on.

But the strength of the Obama campaign has less to do with messianic politics than it has to do with a transcendent message that is, yes, embodied in the person of the candidate. That, my friends, in the nature of politics. It is not just Obama who embodies a brand of politics; McCain and Clinton embody politics also. Unfortunately for them, and for any party that chooses to nominate them, the politics they embody is a politics that growing numbers of Americans have concluded are impediments to solving today’s problems.

April 17, 2008 10:30 PM

Robert Powell said:

I agree with tomeg.

It will be a major mistake if Obama continues to play Johnny One-note on the "distraction" line. In the first place, Saddam Hussein was the world's most destructive terrorist because he had the ability to employ the weapons of an entire national state, moreover a national state fueled by massive oil wealth and sitting on perhaps the single most critical piece of geopolitical real estate in the world. Bailing out and leaving the possiblity of a similarly dangerous regime taking over in Iraq is simply unthinkable.

The idea that we are more threatened by a couple of dried-up old men in a cave in Waziristan (one of whom is probably a ghost) is nonsense. Al Qaeda got lucky and took advantage of our inattention for a one-off. To the extent that this organization represents an actual threat, it's located in the Islamic ghettoes of major European cities, where their recruits can live relatively unmolested due to guaranteed rights, politically-correct status, and welfare support that leaves them with plenty of free time to contemplate the world's injustices. And many of them have passports that allow visa-free travel to the US.

April 18, 2008 8:00 AM

roidubouloi said:

Bailing out of Iraq may be "unthinkable," but it is also inevitable, whether McCain or Obama is in the White House.  We simply cannot afford the continued drain on our security represented by Iraq which gets us nothing while much worse problems fester.  Al Qaeda and its physical and political proximity to the nuclear weapons of Pakistan is far and away the greatest threat to our security, dwarfing anything that might happen in Iraq by a factor of 10,000.

April 18, 2008 11:58 AM

Robert Powell said:

I certainly agree that we shouldn't continue to bungle around Iraq in huge numbers, especially since "the war" as such has been over for some time. I am convinced that we will continue to have a significant presence in Iraq for many years to come, but only if we are smart enough to radically restructure it. I'm betting that Obama is the guy for the job.

Most of the informed opinion on Pakistan indicates that Al Qaeda is a small, unpopular minority that's getting less influential as time goes by. Besides, what exactly would the 82nd Airborne do for us in Islamabad? One of the very worst arguments for getting out of Iraq is that it would give us the ability to attack Iran or North Korea or Waziristan. Any one of these choices would be a catastrophe that would make Iraq look like Grenada.

April 18, 2008 3:07 PM

roidubouloi said:

Re Pakistaon, the reason to get out of Iraq is not so the 82nd airborne can invade Islamabad but because the fact that we are tied down in Iraq makes our support for the government in Islamabad untenable by making as a pariah in the Moslem world.  If we want to lead a coalition of states fighting terrorists fighting American imperium, it is not helpful to be reinforcing the idea that there is indeed an American imperium.  We have no diplomatic leverage with anyone these days because we are perceived as weak for being completely tied down in Iraq.

April 18, 2008 7:29 PM

Robert Powell said:

We are a pariah in the Muslim world no matter what, as we were before the invasion of Iraq. The fact is we have done more to save Muslim lives than anyone, in places as diverse as Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and yes, Iraq. Saddam killed more Muslims than perhaps any leader in history.

We will be perceived as weak if we abandon our allies, interests and principles in Iraq, which is why in my view we're not going to do it no matter who becomes President.  We actually ARE weak in terms of being able to enforce some kind of American Imperium, and I don't think we're going to be doing much of that sort of thing in the future. I'm okay with that. But helping Iraq get on its feet is not a function of imperialism--it's  the right thing to do, as well as in our national interests.

April 20, 2008 3:20 AM

roidubouloi said:

There is no Iraq any more than there was a Yugoslavia.  Both the creations of Western imperial powers for their own ends, both held together for a few decades only by tyrants.  In Yugoslavia, we managed the outcome at far less cost to ourselves -- by any and every measure -- because we facilitated that breakup of what had been artificially forced together, that is, we allowed the political forces at work to achieve equilibrium and helped it occur with the least violence.  In Iraq, the creature of the exact same time and Treaty of Paris process, we have done the opposite and so are ourselves stuck trying to hold the thing together, a useless process as we cannot remain there forever and no non-tyrannical government -- our ostensible goal there -- is going to do it either.  We are athwart history/

April 20, 2008 9:57 AM

Robert Powell said:

This is what we should be talking about--what comes next. I recognize that we may be "athwart history" here, but don't think it's inevitable that we remain so. In the case of Yugoslavia, I think it was only slightly less of a disaster than Iraq. As a witness, I can't adequately describe the frustration of watching genocide taking place again in Europe FOR YEARS, and less than a days drive away from NATO troops which could have, and belatedly did, stop the killing almost immediately once they decided to act. For me Srebrenica was much more relevant to the reality of the UN than the Security Council debates on Iraq.

If we are able to moderate the situation in Iraq in such a way as to balance the factions and prevent the worst excesses, I don't see any reason to doubt that we will ultimately have an Iraq in any of several potential configurations that's relatively stable, relatively democratic, at peace with its neighbors, and pumping oil. That fits my definition of "victory".  I think a strong central government is a dead letter. It's just a matter of how long, and how violently, the process of devolving regional authority (especially in terms of security) takes. We have a role to play here, and will continue to for some time yet.

April 20, 2008 12:18 PM