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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
03.04.2008
Shocker -- Republican Pundits Now Prefer Clinton!

Noam links to an interview with Karl Rove, and notes that "Rove is pretty down on Obama, and actually somewhat sympathetic to Hillary. Though he doesn't explicitly say why." Gee, could it be that Obama is going to be the Democratic nominee, and Clinton isn't? Can it be a coincidence that last year, when most people thought Clinton's nomination was inevitable, conservative pundits were filled with praise for Obama, and now that his victory is near-inevitable they're changing their tune?

Another good example of this phenomenon is Rove's fellow Fox News analyst Michael Barone, who authors a lengthy column purporting to show that Obama's supporters are "academics," and Clinton's are "Jacksonians." I wrote about what Barone's doing here a couple months ago. Basically, he's taking a cultural mythology conservatives developed during the Bush era--to propogate the idea that Democratic voters are a tiny enclave of decadent intellectuals while their supporters represent the true patriotic volk--and applying it to Clinton and Obama.

Is there any evidence that most, or even a singficant chunk, of Obama's supporters are academics? I doubt it, and Barone offers none. Indeed, the whole concept is mainly a conservative anti-intellectual slur. (Barone claims that Obama "appeals enormously to voters in the academia and public-employee enclaves of America, who want to deny honor to our warriors and arrogate it to themselves.")

Now, it's true that working class whites have generally supported Clinton over Obama, and they have been concentrated in and around Appalachia. Barone assures his readers that this is not because of racial prejudice--"Go back to 1995, and look at the polls that showed that most Americans would support Colin Powell for president," he writes. But we don't have to go back to 1995. We have survey analysis of the very race Barone is describing. A Pew survey last week found:

In particular, white Democrats who hold unfavorable views of Obama are much more likely than those who have favorable opinions of him to say that equal rights for minorities have been pushed too far; they also are more likely to disapprove of interracial dating, and are more concerned about the threat that immigrants may pose to American values. In addition, nearly a quarter of white Democrats (23%) who hold a negative view of Obama believe he is a Muslim.

I don't know if Barone was unaware of the finding, or chose to ignore it because it would complicate his attempts to glorify the virtuous Real Americans who reject Obama.

The Democrats-are-egghead-traitors genre of demographic analysis always contains massive analytic flaws. That's inevitable when you're trying to conflate a large (and often majority) segment of the electorate with a tiny, unrepresentative fringe. Barone's latest effort is especially shoddy. The two most loyal constituencies in the Democratic race are older white feminsists for Clinton, and African Americans for Obama. Are the former really best understood as Jacksonians, and the latter as academics? Of course not. This is just a way of defining Obama's supporters out of the mainstream of American life so as to discredit him. Alas, we're going to see a lot of this tripe through November, and--should Obama win--beyond.

--Jonathan Chait

Posted: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:01 AM with 64 comment(s)

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ratnerstar said:

I've never understood how conservatives can love military service members but hate public employees, since the former are clearly a subset of the latter.

April 3, 2008 12:28 PM

lymon1 said:

Argh, this again!  This poll that conflates being against illegal immigration (which is every bit as much a liberal position as it is a conservative one) and against affirmative action (a murky issue subject to good faith debate) with utter racism, used to smear Clinton supporters as nativist racist trash.   Barone's intellectualizing is silly, the conflation of the Pew poll is offensive.  

The fact is that Obama's core support *is* economically comfortable highly educated Dems and African-Americans.  Many of his "independent" crossover voters are voting against Hillary Clinton and will split in the fall.  If the Democrats don't unite they won't win the White House, if they arrogantly look down on frightened workers who don't think green card amnesty (by October 2009 no less) is a bad idea (in a recession no less), they'll risk their grip on Congress as well.  

April 3, 2008 12:51 PM

miceelf said:

Lymon- agree with you about both immigration and affact, as political matters at least. Obama's rhetoric on those two issues is also consonant. I am not sure that Obama's core support is economically comfortable and well educated whites, although you're certainly right about AfAms. He does pretty well in lots of rural, downscale white areas as well. I think the area he has the most trouble with is whites over 50 AND whites who don't follow politics very closely.

The first issue is the toughest one for him, I think- like anything else, it's probably overdetermined. Racism MAY be a small part of it, but a greater part of it may be attachment to the Clintons, a stronger sense of partisanship, the perception that Hlllary is better on the economy, and issues of that kind.

I think the second group is where his chance for growth is easiest.

In any case, a lot comes down to the motivations of the Clinton supporters, and it's a mix of things- Clearly he's got a lot of trouble with the hardcore racists, but I suspect that's a small group. For most of them, it comes down to whether they are voting for clinton or against Obama. If the former, he stands a good chance. if the latter, it will be harder. I DO think some of her appeal with downscale voters has to do with the fact that they don't spend most of their time following such things, which gives her a very big name recognition advantage.

He needs to keep taking the high road wrt the clintons, so as not to alienate those who are voting for her. Folks like me have cooled a great deal on the Clintons, but there's no need to advertise the fact.

April 3, 2008 1:10 PM

miceelf said:

PS. This week's Newsweek has a story about Obama's stance on Affirmative Action- he's apparently long preferred an economics-based approach and favored community rather than government interventions wrt race-based disparities.

April 3, 2008 1:33 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Some (polite, I hope) questions from a loyal TNR reader on this point:

1) What took you guys so long to see that Obama's got a Kerry-Dukakis-Gore smugness/arrogance problem?

2) Why do we have to go to dopey lads' magazines like GQ to find bombshell interviews with Rove? Aren't you guys in DC? Why can't you score interviews with A-listers like him?

3) Why, when the interview came out, did you guys initially focus on the Hillary vs Obama dead horse (I mean really, she's finished; we get it, thanks) instead of the bombshell revelation that Rove thinks Obama's an easy target and that GOP operatives like Rove view him with contempt?

Please don't get me wrong on this. I want Obama to succeed, I want Dems to succeed, and I want dear old TNR to succeed.

But for all these to happen, someone on our side has got to start shining a spotlight on that looming iceberg that is the good ship Obama's inability to connect with ordinary working people who don't buy into identity politics. Especially those blue-collar non-NPR, non-Nation/TNR/NYT Dems who found Duke and Kerry phony and who aren't keen on glamorous big talkers with little seniority or battle scars.

So do it for the team, guys! Walk for the cure! Lay down the Kool-Aid and help the cause!

April 3, 2008 1:33 PM

WoodyBombay said:

God help anyone who takes this "bombshell" interview with Rove seriously. It belongs in a lad mag, not any sort of publication that takes politics seriously.

April 3, 2008 1:58 PM

miceelf said:

Tep- good points all, but I think point 3 assumes facts not in evidence. We have no idea what Rove actually thinks, and his words are at best a poor indication.

April 3, 2008 2:04 PM

jkolic said:

Ann Couter, too, joins the ranks of pundits supporting Hillary over not only Obama, but McCain as well. As her argument goes, not much difference exists between McCain and the Democratic Party, and, given that the case is such, Republicans are better off having a Dem president in 08 because

1) Republican Congress will fight back against Democratic, but not against McCain White House even though the policies devised by either are bound to displease the conservatives

2) Any of the three candidates will institute disastrous measures except that, with McCain losing, Republicans will not have to suffer the blame for the consequences, and

3) Failed Dem presidency will lead to a backlash that will teach Republicans never to elect a candidate as liberal as McCain again.

It is interesting, however, that, for all her vocal support of Hillary over McCain, Coulter never actually admits to being willing to vote for Obama if he does end up being the Dem nominee. Interesting line of thinking, no?

April 3, 2008 2:09 PM

jkolic said:

Ann Couter, too, joins the ranks of pundits supporting Hillary over not only Obama, but McCain as well. As her argument goes, not much difference exists between McCain and the Democratic Party, and, given that the case is such, Republicans are better off having a Dem president in 08 because

1) Republican Congress will fight back against Democratic, but not against McCain White House even though the policies devised by either are bound to displease the conservatives

2) Any of the three candidates will institute disastrous measures except that, with McCain losing, Republicans will not have to suffer the blame for the consequences, and

3) Failed Dem presidency will lead to a backlash that will teach Republicans never to elect a candidate as liberal as McCain again.

It is interesting, however, that, for all her vocal support of Hillary over McCain, Coulter never actually admits to being willing to vote for Obama if he does end up being the Dem nominee. Interesting line of thinking, no?

April 3, 2008 2:09 PM

teplukhin2you said:

He's laid out the GOP line of attack for the fall. Obama, the Smug Elitist BS Artist. Maybe it'll work, maybe not, but given the evidence we have so far-- the man's failure to close the sale with bluecollar Dems, let alone blue-collar independents, also hispanics (a constituency that McCain and Rove know very well)-- plus our dismal record with such elitist, arrogant candidates in 1988, 2000 and 2004, I think it's worth taking very seriously.

More seriously than the latest snarky YouTube, anyway.

April 3, 2008 2:14 PM

butchie b said:

ratner, I don't hate public employees (I am one) but after 21 years in the Army, the reason is that the lives of military members and the lives of civilian government workers are so different, one forgets about the fact that both work for the feds.

Something about the unlimited liability contract, the moving every 3 years (no home equity for you), and the physical fitness requirements, just to name a few.

April 3, 2008 2:15 PM

miceelf said:

Tep- do you honestly believe he wouldn't be laying out a similar line of attack (with subtle differences, tailored of course to the individual) if the nominee were Clinton or Edwards or Biden or Dodd? It'd either be "washington insider" or "effete newbie"

April 3, 2008 2:27 PM

JEFF FREY said:

Lymon, I suggest you re-read Jonathan's post. The excerpt said nothing about *illegal* immigration. It said "are more concerned about the threat that immigrants may pose to American values". That form of nativist attitude is, I think, more likely to go hand in hand with racial prejudice. I have not looked at the poll myself, but I would propose that if you grouped people based on their answers to those questions, you could predict that those who "disapprove of interracial dating" would be least likely among those four groups to support Obama.

An interesting new tidbit (for me) is that 23% of the Democrats surveyed who have a negative view of Obama thought he was a Muslim. Obama doesn't have very high negative numbers, so it is only 23% of a relatively small fraction of Democrats, but those people are seriously ill-informed. I wonder how many of those people think that Obama the Muslim's Christian preacher's views are a negative?

April 3, 2008 2:58 PM

teplukhin2you said:

"Tep- do you honestly believe he wouldn't be laying out a similar line of attack (with subtle differences, tailored of course to the individual) if the nominee were Clinton or Edwards or Biden or Dodd?"

HRC - full metal jacket, sure, but I didn't support and wouldn't support HRC.

Edwards - agreed, an even fatter target (house, hair, lovechild, channeled tort victims = GOP joy)

Biden - no sale. He's squeaky-clean. The ONLY candidate who's not a gazillionaire or married to one, blue-collar roots and never really strayed. Drives several hours to family and (modest) house every weekend. Net worth is only some $300k.

Dodd - cf Biden re blue-collar roots. Tough-ass hard-drinking carousing Irish pol. Sounds like someone on the GOP side of the aisle, eh? Again, no sale.

April 3, 2008 3:14 PM

BHLnyc said:

Tep,

I'm going to assume you were facetious when you described Rove's claim that Obama would be an easier candidate to beat as a "bombshell revelation."

Also, agree entirely with miceelf that Rove would be laying out the same line of attack against any of the Democrats.  

April 3, 2008 3:22 PM

bdgreen said:

Give us a break, Tep. The 'bombshell revelation" that Rove thinks Obama's an easy target? That's not a bombshell. It's not even a firecracker. That was the whole point of Chait's post; Rove is using the same attack lines that he'd deploy against any Democrat. Obama is now Enemy Number One, end of analysis, end of story. Rove is simply painting another portrait of the Democratic devil. and It's always the same devil.

Just because Hillary outperforms Obama among lower-income voters doesn't that McCain will outperform Obama among those voters in the fall. Very different match-up, very different decision; McCain does not look a great deal like Hillary Clinton. A two-person race is a zero-sum game, so, yes, Hillary and Obama are closely matched, and each has strengths and weaknesses among certain demographics. This would be true in any close race. So why have the pundits spun things so that the mere fact of this close primary translates into scores of weaknesses for the front-runner? I mean, McCain beat Romney -- at the last second -- for his own ticket to the big game. Ooh, what a triumph!

"If Obama can't put Hillary away, how will he beat McCain?" -- say Team Hillary and Karl Rove, while they cackle and beat irony to death with two-by-fours. But, in my opinion, beating McCain among both parties will be cake compared with beating Hillary among Democrats. Bush has toxic torture coattails, and the Republicans shot the economy to death and dumped it in the river. Hillary is running on the Clinton years. McCain will be running on -- what? Empty, I'd say.

April 3, 2008 3:47 PM

lymon1 said:

Jeff:  I'd maintain that in 2008 when people talk about "the threat that immigrants may pose to American values" this is synonymous with "the threat of a largely Latino population, whose increasing numbers are the result of illegal immigration."    See today's Absolut Vodka ad controversy, for example.  

April 3, 2008 4:06 PM

miceelf said:

Tep- I agree no sale, but the standard Gop approach is to use the strength against them. Biden and Dodd would both be getting the Washington insider treatment. (even ignoring the obvious irony with McCain). Agree as well that HRC and JE are both even bigger targets.

I think Obama is a bit of a rorschach test- you and I have very different subjective responses to him. Still, I think it's by no means fatal at this point, and I do believe he's taking steps in the directions you're suggesting, albeit perhaps not the specific ones you suggested.

BUT on the Affirmative Action tip, check out this week's newsweek- there's an extensive article about him on this topic (p. 34, Apr. 7 issue)- that looks to me like at least water testing/laying the groundwork for needs-based AA and quotes an earlier interview where he says "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed" and "my daughters should be treated by admissions officers as folks who are pretty advantaged."

It's not exactly what you were suggesting, but I would argue it is in that direction and leaves it open, at very least.

April 3, 2008 4:22 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

That's an awful lot of academics voting. I didn't realize America had some many universities.

April 3, 2008 4:44 PM

teplukhin2you said:

bdgreen - iamnotforhillaryiamnotforhillaryiamnotforhillaryiamnotforhillaryiamnotforhillary

"Rove is simply painting another portrait of the Democratic devil. and It's always the same devil"

Yeah, funny, isn't it? So why the f*** do we keep nominating people who can be so easily, devastatingly, and [S]wiftly portrayed in the GOP's terms? Arrogant? Check. Smug? Check. Identity-Politics-mongering? post-Wright, check.

Ask not at whom the chimp smirks, he smirks at thee...

Me, I wanted our side to nominate someone real, with real depth and savvy and a track record going back decades who ALSO connects well with working families etc. That's Biden. But we all know Joe sucks, lacks charisma, zero on the identity politics scale, those hairplugs hahahaha etc

So we're stuck with Professor-Lawyer Silvertongue. I'm making the best of it. Maybe jhildner and roiduboulot are right-- they're both super-sharp, and I've been wrong before (Rudy! UHAYP!!). But on the Rove attack line, I'd rather put my trust in Experience instead of Hope, thank you. Been burned too many times before.

April 3, 2008 5:00 PM

teplukhin2you said:

miceelf - "Tep- good points all, but I think point 3 [Rove views BHO with contempt] assumes facts not in evidence. We have no idea what Rove actually thinks, and his words are at best a poor indication."

The bombshell was what Rove said off the record. He alludes to this earlier in the interview. He obviously thinks Obama is a weaseling, arrogant little sh*t. I'd be willing to bet euros to donuts (croissants?) that this is what he said off the record to the interviewer, who took pains to call it out for her readers, in brackets (["Yes, it's good. Sorry"]).

Maybe some day our side will figure out that the American cultural pantheon of cherished stock figures does not include a glibber-than-thou Mr Smartypants. When that day comes, we'll have deprived the GOP of its most potent weapon against us in presidential elections.

April 3, 2008 5:08 PM

desertdog said:

As a still unconvinced Democrat from a very red state, I will vote for whomever emerges as the nominee.  But, it's important to set the record straight about the Rev. Wright. The Clinton campaign DID NOT bring up the issue initially. Even they wouldn't dare to bring this up now.  However, it must also be said that it was a godsend to the Dark Lord and will be used very effectively by the Swift Yacht Liars for McBush.

Believe me. We haven't even heard the first volleys of this attack. It will be a very big issue in the GE and it will be very effective with right-leaning independents (the majority, despite what they claim) as well as working class Democrats.  The social libertarian in those same independents won't allow them to admit they usually fall in line and vote Republican, even when many of the bigots and religious zealots embarass them.  The economic conservative in them will prevail if they believe that Obama's election will lead to the redress of all the long-standing racial and socio-economic greivances.

Most everybody I've known in my lifetime feels uncomfortable around the the guy (or gal) who has the radical, anti-American, hate-spewing "friend", even if they like the guy or gal personally. This is especially true of working-class and lower middle class people, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.  And this from the "unity" and "not politics as usual" candidate. Couple that with Michelle's dumb statement about being proud of her country "for the first time" and you have a fuse burning toward a railroad car full of nitroglycerin!

We need to be very careful about fooling ourselves into thinking Obama has talked his way past this issue. I can hear the Repugnant smear-and-fear machine sharpening their knives and drooling at the prospect.  Questions of patriotism and un-Americanism, although mostly unfair and demagogic, will resonate with the average voter.

At least with Clinton, Rove and Co. already knows her many faults and they can't find anything more to throw at her that hasn't already been tried.

April 3, 2008 5:08 PM

stgla said:

Obama's been filing stadiums with... liberal professors???  Maybe the Cal-Berkeley stadium, but Barone's "analysis" sounds ridiculous on its face.

April 3, 2008 5:20 PM

JEFF FREY said:

Lymon, you are probably that many people think that way, although the two things you mention are clearly separate issues. And I think there are plenty of people who oppose illegal immigration specifically, yet have no problem with immigrants in general. And no problem with Latinos in particular.

I had not heard about this Absolut ad controversy, but I Googled it and found the ad (although not much that was written about it). Well, we did take what is now the US southwest away from Mexico -- just historical fact. Mexicans have a different view of that than we Yanquis do -- that shouldn't be a surprise. But I suppose that there will now be a race to denouce and reject Absolut Vodka, and claim that they are encouraging Mexicans to come here and take over through birthrate, or some such nonsense.

April 3, 2008 7:06 PM

JEFF FREY said:

Missing word correction: Lymon, you are probably RIGHT that many people think that way, ...

April 3, 2008 9:05 PM

ChanRobt said:

ratnerstar, people in the military are not, "...clearly a subset" of "public employees".

The military has a special ethos of its own, is steeped in unique traditions and history, makes multiple sacrifices, gives up many freedoms for the sake of the service and military discipline, and is subject to the rigorous military code of justice.

To look upon the military as simple another form of civil service, but with uniforms-- just a vast bureaucracy with rifles-- is to be misinformed to the extreme.

This type of ignorance is very widespread and is another unfortunate side effect of not having a draft and of the isolation of civilians from military life.

April 3, 2008 11:11 PM

Annabella2 said:

Tep... so what do you suggest needs to be done for Dems to win even though all signs point to them nominating an Intellectual Black man?

interesting observation registering voters in NW Indiana today, again... boy is that area Bombed out with economic decline!  boarded up houses, deserted and run down boulevards... seedy shopping centers...

BUT a curiously apt observation from a very blue collar, unintellectual white man.  "No way I'd vote for that phoney (meaning Hillary not Obama).  She is just so Hollywood."   How has he hit the nail so on the head... and not just over the Tulza episode, but her whole persona and her political connections and the Movies all the time when The Clintons were in the White House... I don't mean the movie that was their private lives, I mean... the movies that were such standard fare in the White House showing room...

But why beat a dead horse...

Did you really expect anything else from Rove... he is the guy that made sure that even had Bush not been an idiot who would come across as one because ordinary people could identify with him and say:  "Well I'm not so smart either."  That scenario may play OK when people don't think the country is in trouble.  I am not at all sure that it does when the country is...I also heard a lot of :  "We need a change!"  Of course Rove doesn't want to suggest that might be a possibility, does he?

April 3, 2008 11:17 PM

Annabella2 said:

Chan... do you think anyone would dare to bring a draft back?  Obama has talked about "service" for investment in youth... but he usually includes civic service... What about McCain... would he have the guts to propose a draft?  Might be necessary the way we are stringing out our military we repeated deployments... professional military people are VERY concerned.

April 3, 2008 11:20 PM

Annabella2 said:

Desertdog your point seems awfully cogent.  BUt then why isn't it showing up more in the polls now?  A friend recently called him the Teflon candidate.  And what does he have to do to meet the argument to defuse it with those demographics ?  Or is there no way?  Or does Wright get up and say:  Look I was a marine for 3 years and a navy medic for another 3?  Few people have picked up on that... or the fact that he got all sort of awards from all sorts of groups in Chicago, including Businessmen for the Public Interest.  I suppose none of that cuts any mustard when the sound bites take over.

April 3, 2008 11:28 PM

lamh31 said:

Hi, all.  New subscriber here.  I posted 2 comments on the Stump post, but they also fit here, so I'm just reposting them.  

The sad fact is, that  Republicans don't really win elections,  Democrats lose elections by letting the Republicans definition of our candidates govern our feeling or reason for voting for the Democratic  nominee.  It always happens that Democrats let Republicans divide and conquer our party.  They will do that regardless of who the nominee is, be it Hilary (an untrustworthy, ball-bustering, racist, do anything, shrew) or Obama (an arrogant, unpatriotic, racist, elitist, liberal).

But it is up to us as Democrats to not allow the horrid rancid stench of the Republican machine (Yes I mean you Karl Rove, Fox, et al..) to hinder us from winning the election in November.

By shear numbers alone, if we stand together as one party, we can't lose.

April 4, 2008 1:14 AM

lamh31 said:

Webster's definition of arrogance is  "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions "

Given that definition, what has Barack Obama himself (not his surrogates, the man himself, his words, his actions) done that makes him seem more arrogant than Hilary Clinton or Bill Clintion or any other politician for that matter.  Is it that he is the leader right now, is it because he  is a man? Maybe.

But I'll tell you what I think, it all in the connotation of Rove's statment and attitude, and the percentage of voters he's trying to subtley target.  Being born and raised in the south (New Orleans to be exact), and as an African American, I'll tell you what first crossed my mind: "code" talk.

The "code" (to a % of the population, not all, but a percent) as they like to call it in southern circles is as followed:  

"He's ARROGANT";  Translation: who does this uppity, "so and so think" he is"  , "how dare he look down his nose at those of us who have had to actually work hard to get someone where."  

I can tell you that I'm not alone in my reasoning.

April 4, 2008 1:15 AM

mundye said:

lamh31:

I think you may be on to something, and its certainly bothered me a bit.  I've seen very little evidence that Obama is arrogant, other than the insistent claims of many Hillary supporters and a few others (tep, I'm looking in your direction).  Admittedly, there have been 2-3 times during the past year that I've thought Obama was a little cocky, but certainly nothing outrageous.  This "Obama is arrogant" meme seems to be based more on its constant repetition, rather than any evidence to support it.  And the more anyone repeats it (be it Rove, Hillary supporter or nervous Obama supporter), the more and more it seems like "fact."  We need to QUIT PLAYING INTO THE REPUBLICANS' GAME!  STOP giving them the ammunition and then instructing them on how best to use it against us.

Tep:

You said, "Yeah, funny, isn't it? So why the f*** do we keep nominating people who can be so easily, devastatingly, and [S]wiftly portrayed in the GOP's terms? Arrogant? Check. Smug? Check. Identity-Politics-mongering? post-Wright, check."

I really think you miss the point of the original post.  It wouldn't matter who the Democrats nominate, Republicans would immediately try to tar him/her as "arrogant" and "elitist".  This has been their standard trope for the past 20-30 years.  I'm not saying it has never been warranted or our candidates didn't do their all to try and confirm it (Gore, Kerry) but just because the Republicans say, it doesn't make it true.  But when you blindly accept it, and run around like Chicken Little screaming "Obama is arrogant!  The sky is falling!!", it goes a long way to making it appear true.  Believe it or not, Karl Rove may not exactly have the purest of motives in his answers and I really doubt he is offering objective, neutral observations.  Just remember, it does NOT matter who the Dems nominate, the Repubs are going to call him arrogant.  Try not to make their job that much easier by accepting the label unconditionally.

April 4, 2008 3:17 AM

psantillana said:

What mundye said.

These are nervous times, most people thought the primary would be over by now, and we've all been clobbered twice before by Karl Rove. But don't invest too much power in the man [he probably didn't invent AIDS, for example], because you give it to him when you do. So he says Obama is arrogant - well he was going to say something, wasn't he? What do you do with a smart, charming person? "Thinks he's all that!" is what.

What should Obama do, shuffle his feet and look at the ground? Are Dems stupid because we keep nominating smart people? You seem twisted up in tension. Relax, I say: Obama is not "stiff", as Kerry and Gore were, if that helps. And whatever you may think, he does not have a reputation as a snob among the Republicans he has worked with, but the opposite. One of them in Illinois got into trouble with his party for saying how nice it was to work with him, in front of a videocamera. Obama is not going to roll his eyes and sigh at the podium. If you want to HELP, then help refute this garbage.

April 4, 2008 4:13 AM

WaltB said:

I really don't get the 'arrogant' label that people keep trying to tag Obama with.  Clinton is far mor so than him (they both hide it like George W. does), and almost anyone in the current administration is worse. And then there's the 'liberal' label - why isn't even worse connotation attached to 'conservative'.  After all, look where we are now after eight years of conservative rule.  

April 4, 2008 6:38 AM

PeteBeck said:

lamh31 has it exactly right.

Rove is launching the message that Obama is an uppity colored boy.

And a lot of others -- not just "ethnic whites" -- may buy into that.

And the more Rove's "motives" -- which to me are obvious -- are debated, the more the message becomes part of the conventional wisdom.

So instead of saying clearly and honestly to the Roves of the world "Fuck you you slimy bigots," which is what we should be sayiing (perhaps not in those exact words), we are trapped in a debate about how Obama and his supporters should shape up to meet the unquenchable demands of their bigotry.

The ultimate message must be that Obama and even Hillary Clinton are in a grand, patriotic American tradition that began in 1776 and even before, and that Rove and his greedy, sleezy, demented clients and fellows (like the truly awful Coulter) are the real, dangerous enemies of America.

Why does Rove hate America?  Why do his friends need a front man like McCain and how will they use him for their ends?  Those are the questions to ask.

April 4, 2008 8:15 AM

PeteBeck said:

lamh31 has it exactly right.

Rove is launching the message that Obama is an uppity colored boy.

And a lot of others -- not just "ethnic whites" -- may buy into that.

And the more Rove's "motives" -- which to me are obvious -- are debated, the more the message becomes part of the conventional wisdom.

So instead of saying clearly and honestly to the Roves of the world "Fuck you you slimy bigots," which is what we should be sayiing (perhaps not in those exact words), we are trapped in a debate about how Obama and his supporters should shape up to meet the unquenchable demands of their bigotry.

The ultimate message must be that Obama and even Hillary Clinton are in a grand, patriotic American tradition that began in 1776 and even before, and that Rove and his greedy, sleezy, demented clients and fellows (like the truly awful Coulter) are the real, dangerous enemies of America.

Why does Rove hate America?  Why do his friends need a front man like McCain and how will they use him for their ends?  Those are the questions to ask.

April 4, 2008 8:15 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

Agree with lamh31 and PeteBeck completely - examples of Obama's arrogance please?  Something that stands out and is real, not something that represents the substantial ego of anyone running for President in the history of this country.  

Here's the real deal and Rove knows it:

"How dare this black man come at us from nowhere with his confidence, his calm and his big words?  How dare he challenge my unconscious definitions of what a black m an is supposed to be?  Where is his kissing ss, his anger?  This is too weird - it makes me unCOMfortable!  I don't LIKE to feel unCOMfortable, especially when I can't put my finger on why."

Tep - as if the Republicans haven't used - verbatim - the same words and attack strategies for 20 years.  WHo is glib here? YOU.  Joe Biden cannot inspire a brick wall, but he sure is white enough.

April 4, 2008 8:48 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

PS This process goes both ways - we all do it.

Here's a video that speaks to this a bit, and more - full disclosure: its a pro-Obama video and I know two of the kids and the teacher.

my.barackobama.com/.../yestheycan

April 4, 2008 9:03 AM

teplukhin2you said:

Oh please, spare me this red herring about "uppity." His arrogance has zip, nothing, nada to do with race. It has everything to do with the notion that glib patter is a substitute for substance and that any criticism of his association with Rev Goofball's Krazy Konspiracy Theories About AmeriKKKa, and his bizarre handling of it-- suddenly we need a(nother) National Conversation on race!--  is malicious, nasty, racist.

Look, anyone who excites great admiration from both Louis Farrakhan and Marty Peretz is not all there. Projection is a marvelous thing, I know, but really, it's completely out of hand with Obama. He's bipartisan! He's a fierce champion of Democratic causes! He's a liberal! He's a centrist! He's for NAFTA! He's against NAFTA! He's post-racial! He's for Black Power!

At some point the game will have to stop, and Obama will have to emerge behind his all-things-to-all-people mask. When that happens, either Marty Peretz or Louis Farrakhan will be extremely disappointed. My guess is that both will be disappointed. This is pretty much what happened to Jimmy Carter by 1980, when every single Dem constituency (except afr-amers) dumped him, and all of our major allies threw their support to Reagan.

But hey, enjoy the rave while it lasts, feel the love, and cry racist at anyone who dares to suggest that the Farrakhan-Peretz Republican-Democrat Post-Racial/Black Power candidate is a figment of your imagination.

April 4, 2008 10:12 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

touch a nerve, huh?

April 4, 2008 10:20 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

You still haven't answered my question Tep - I just hear alot of yadda yadda generalities about the unfairness of it all and the feel good stuff isn't real.  I wasn't calling you a racist or anyone else, I was including you in with myself and everyone else on the planet who is impacted by socialization.  Unless you somehow miraculously avoided that by being a superior being.  If so, alert the  media - you're the first.

Or something like that. That and the big bad Republicans (who have dstroyed everything theyve touched, are pulling in half our money and voters and have a candidate even they aren't thrilled about) will make fun of him.  Oh, I quiver in my boots

You still cannot point to one thing that is any more arrogant than anything else being said or done by any candidate.  You still can't point to anything that is anymore glib than is said by any other candidate.

You just want to shoot down anything and everything so you can say I told you so. You hear what you want to hear and tune out everything else.  Obama is certainly not a perfect candidate, but so what?  Constantly harping on your VERY general sense of his inadequacies adds nothing. And the romantization of old dogs like Biden and Dodd, smart guys yes who lost for very good  reasons, also adds nothing.

April 4, 2008 10:30 AM

r-ennis said:

tep does a great job in articulating the position of people like me who grew up almost literally in the gutter, got educated and are reasonably successful, whose financial interests are better served by the Republicans but who remained Democrats precisely because they want others to have similar opportunities to improve their lives.

Unfortunately, the Democratic party has become the party of identity politics and esoteric causes. Since Reagan I stayed with the Democratic party because of my fear of the religious right. Clinton proved to me that we could advance a progressive agenda while eliminating many of the problems associated with welfare dependency while working with a hostile Congress and managing to balance the budget as well.

Instead of embracing Clinton's positive legacy Gore bought into the negative one and disowned Clinton and didn't even carry his own state.. We got Bush and Rove. No matter how you slice it, both Obama and Clinton are where they are because of identity politics. Again. tep is correct. Neither Biden nor Dodd could be caricatured  by Rove (and Limbaugh and Hannity, etc.) the way they are.

A post above asks why Rove hates America. But on this forum shouldn't we be asking why we nominate someone like Obama who associates with people who hate America (including, apparently his own wife)?

The Republican electorate has demonstrated its discipline and relative wisdom by nominating a Centrist and not a right wing ideologue, contrary to the wishes of the far right wing of their party and their pundits. The Democratic Party has demonstrated that it is still in the grip of identity politics.

I guess that means that I will almost certainly vote Republican this year. My wife agrees with me on all the points I raised, but her father was a union organizer and staunch FDR New Dealer so the thought of voting Republican is far more repugnant to her. Despite that, the trashing Hillary has been taking, though, has offended her feminist sensibilities so she might come around after all, paricularly since she also agrees with me that Obama, by virtue of his advisors and church affliliation is not to be trusted in his dealings with Israel or Iran.

April 4, 2008 11:28 AM

miceelf said:

Tep- you can't honestly hold Obama responsible for the fact that Farrakhan supports him (or Peretz for that matter). He's specifically rejected and denounced Farrakhan. He may have done the same with Peretz- I don't know.

You're correct that he's widely perceived as bipartisan AND as liberal. One can be both of those things. The "centrist" label is one that Clinton supporters have primarily thrown at him and one he's resisted.

He;s also consistently been aagainst nafta. You're once again blaiming him for the fact that Clinton, in the primary campaign, has tried to portray him as to the right of her on some issues.

April 4, 2008 11:30 AM

butchie b said:

Annabell, we will not have a draft.  First, the military doesn't want one because it wants people who want to be there.  Second, the elites of this country - liberal and conservative alike - would NEVER allow little Johnny ( and Janey) to serve in the military.  Third, there are a million 18 year olds in each annual cohort.  What do we do with all those people?

April 4, 2008 11:44 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

So, when are you joining up to go fight in Iraq r-ennis? Why not just join now?

Since the notion of things not going the way you want them to is simply too much for you to tolerate, I assume you're more than willing to deal with the consequences and pay up.  Just let us know so we can have a going away party for you.

Or is that still someone elses problem?  Talk about arrogant and glib!    

April 4, 2008 12:46 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Wandrey - I was referring to 1amh31 and PeteBeck's posts in which they conflated "arrogant" and "uppity."

One of the shrewdest writers around, Virginia Postrel, has the last word on this. Writing in The Atlantic, she articulates better than I can the problem with the Nowhere Man candidacy. Read the whole thing and ponder it carefully:

www.theatlantic.com/.../obamas-glamour

April 4, 2008 1:30 PM

r-ennis said:

I didn't even mention Iraq, let alone use the word "arrogant" or "glib". I try to present my views without insulting anyone, something apparently that some of you are incapable of doing. Much like the your opposite numbers on the far right.

April 4, 2008 2:19 PM

naomi88 said:

tep,

There is nothing in the Postrel piece that suggests Obama is arrogant. On that charge, you have yet to come up with anything.  You want to recant?  

April 4, 2008 2:29 PM

PeteBeck said:

Tep,

When you wrote, above, about Chris Dodd's blue collar roots, I sensed that you may be a bit out of touch.  Dodd's father was a graduate of Yale Law School and, eventually (after high level government service and private practice) a US Senator.  His grandfather was a contractor, so I guess someone can call that "blue collar" and, similarly, John Kennedy's grandfather started life as a dock worker.

Similarly, you seem to think that anyone who looks clearly will find that Obama is arrogant.  Surprisingly, the notion didn't become part of the public discourse until Rove -- in a tactical attack -- used the term.  Nearly 1.5 million mainly ordinary Americans have donated to his campaign, and I doubt that a candidate seen as "arrogant" could attract that kind of following.

I will stick with the point -- Rove was sending the not very disguised coded message that Obama is an uppity colored man.

It wasn't very different from Bill Clinton's comments in South Carolina or Ferraro's.

And only slightly different from David Brooks branding him as the new MLK.

Is that branding "racist?"  You decide, but it clearly is branding, a way of saying that he is the colored candidate.  If you can't see that, you don't know America where I've lived and worked in various environments (law, construction, sales, military, consulting) for more than 70 years.

By the way, the Atlantic article doesn't address the issue of arrogance, and I have no idea where you find him to be pro Nafta and pro Black Power.

And if you don't see that Obama's advocacy of a new way of doing politics is in itself a dramatic and substantive proposal, then you don't understand how important procedure is to defining substance.  (I learned that at Harvard Law.)  Maybe Obama does.

Is it unreasonable that he can bring together people whose views of specifics are dramatically different, assuming that they share the same fundamental goals?  I don' think so.

April 4, 2008 2:33 PM

teplukhin2you said:

"recant"? I know TNR's becoming more and more like a church bulletin with each day, but I'll remain agnostic, thanks.

Sorry for the re-post, but TNR's kloogey format multiplies instead of manages threads, so from the "Bait" thread:

Arrogant in my book is thinking that leadership entails slyly pretending to be post-racial (to a yuppie audience) and an acolyte of Black Power (to the black church audience), pro-free trade to the DLCers and anti-free trade to union members, pro-Israel to the TNR crowd and pro-Palestinian to The Nation crowd....

Like most voters I don't ask for a candidate who agrees with me on everything. I ask for one who has the guts and intelligence to tell me where and how he or she disagrees with me, why in his/her view I'm wrong, and who tries to persuade me, with logic and facts and decent arguments, of the rightness of his/her view on issues that really matter.

To my mind, that's more in line with leadership than coyly telling people what they want to hear.

April 4, 2008 2:46 PM

jwl2672 said:

ratnerstar  said:

I've never understood how conservatives can love military service members but hate public employees, since the former are clearly a subset of the latter.

No one here hates public employees.  But if you can't distinguish between a military service member and a postal worker, then we have real problems.  Aside from risking their necks for our country, they are heroes and their job is certainly more important and glorious than shoving mail into slots.  Also, 100% of public service workers join for the paycheck.  Even the most cynical lefty can't say that 100% of the military joins for a paycheck.  Especially since the alternatives are a whole lot better paying (public service workers)

April 4, 2008 2:50 PM

jwl2672 said:

We hate Clinton.  We don't hate Obama.  We think Obama is totally unqualified and has not given any specifics whatsoever aside from a few nice words like "audacity of hope" and "change" and "forward, onward, etc. etc. etc."

Having dealt with many people at my work who use big empty words to mask their ignorance and absence of plan, we think Obama's full of hot air.  C'mon, grown men swooning over at his words? It further effeminates male democrats - if that were possible.

April 4, 2008 2:54 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Pete - fair enough re Dodd, my mistake re his class roots. I believe my info's correct that Dodd's a carouser and an Irish boontime buddy of Teddy K, tho. I don't consider that type of pol, the Irish man's man, to be arrogant. Tip, Teddy, and their ilk are liberal, proud of it, staright talkers and for those reasons connect easily with working men.

"Is it unreasonable that he can bring together people whose views of specifics are dramatically different, assuming that they share the same fundamental goals?"

"Unreasonable"? It's frankly ridiculous to assume that people like Marty Peretz and Israel- and whitefolk-demonizing Black Power preachers "share the same fundamental goals." Ditto for people who are pro-free trade and anti-free trade.

Again, I wish Obama well, but I just don't see any good that will accrue to the nation, or the party, or for that matter, Obama's presidency, from BS'ing people in this way.

fwiw to my mind the more devastating label isn't "arrogant"-- he seems like a nice guy, generally means well-- but _smug_. I think he has major liabilities and may well have a rough road in the fall if he doesn't start getting real and making some enemies.  

April 4, 2008 2:55 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

r-ennnis - I find the notion that you would vote for McCain because you didn't get your way deeply insulting to my values and my country - not to mention monsterously selfish.  No you didn't mention Iraq, of course you didn't.  That's still someone else's problem, someone else's funeral to attend.  You're too busy kvetching about Obama's arrogance to think of such things.  Dont worry, ll think of them for you.

I can't stand Hillary Clinton and would be the first person to canvas for her and do whatever it takes to make sure she wins if she somehow pulls this off.  If you'd rather reward the Republican party after they have befowled almost everything this country stands for because of feet stamping, don't expect a polite response.  

I can get over myself, you should too.

Tep - didn't see anything supporting your thesis that Obama is arrogant and glib in that article, although thanks for the link.  I always like her work.  I still haven't seen anything of substance from you on that issue.  

I've always found Obama to be a pretty straight forward person and a particularly good listener, as honest as a major politician is inclined to be and I'm not alone - his race speech satisfied most people, not because they are kool-aid drinking morons (trying to picture my 70 year old ex-marine electrical engineer father drinking kool-aid or tolerating being called such a thing).  These are hardly qualities I associate with arrogance.

Obama is not perfect by any stretch and is no doubt a flawed man and candidate (as they all are), but arrogant?  Arrogant is Bush and the boys, the refusal to listen, to assume his way or no way.  I have yet to see anything resembling that. I'd appreciate an instance where you found that quality present in  him in a way that has real substance to it.

April 4, 2008 3:13 PM

naomi88 said:

""recant"? I know TNR's becoming more and more like a church bulletin with each day, but I'll remain agnostic, thanks."

I'm not sure where you're going with that.  The word "recant" isn't confined to use in a religious context,  or at least it isn't in any dictionary I've ever seen.

April 4, 2008 4:36 PM

tec619 said:

Okay. I'll agree that Obama seems a bit elitist. However, the perceptiono f Obama as a soy-double-latte drinker versus Hillary,Rosanne's neighbor, is counterfactual. Hillary, grew up in an upper middle-class household--with daddy and mommy (Obama didn't)--outside Chicago. (Not Peoria.) Her educational (Whew! That is a word.. .had to look it up.) pedigree (Wellesley, Yale Law is comparable (Obama: Occidental Coll, Columbia, Harvard Law) and her various post university pursuits are similar (if you mean "liberal and legal") as well. The Clinton's are also powerful, well-connected Democrats. (How could they not be?)

I'll agree that academics and the educated elite are the core of Obama's supporters. But that doesn't explain Obama's victories in the Mountain West, which are called that because those states aren't on the east or west coasts.  Obama won the   caucuses Obama with 58 percent, or 4,000+ votes, to Clinton's 41 percent, or 2,900 votes. (Less than 500 souls participated in Wyoming's 2004 Democratic caucuses.)

Are there 7,000 academics in WYOMING? Wyoming has eight regionally accredited colleges. Only one, the University of Wyoming, Laramie, is a four-year institution. The faculty and staff of UWY-L totals slightly over 2000 people.

Obama also won the South Dakota caucuses. (Wasn't it 61 percent to 39 percent? Does South Dakota have colleges and Starbucks stores? Who are these WHITE people--in Wyoming, Iowa, Idaho and New Hampshire?  They can't possibly be academics and east/west coast type elites.

Moreover, in every caucus state, with the exception of Nevada, Obama won.  People have to be motivated to participate in a caucus. An we know the demograhic make-up of the typical caucus participant. I don't think that the IA, SD and WY participants are elites. Texas, like Nevada, the only caucus state Obama lost is heavily Latino, yet he won the TX caucuses.  Sure, in the Texan hybrid system, one could claim that Hillary won the election but lost the caucuses because those participants were party elites. But I don't believe that Latinos are a minuscule minority of Texas Democratic party elites.

April 4, 2008 5:21 PM

tec619 said:

jwl2672:

You said 100 percent of public sector employees join for the paycheck. (Anectode as empiricism?) So, ah, that would include the Schedule C employees? Especially those political appointees who seek and secure cushy, safe, policy-making, near-to-power, national security jobs. You know, the type of positions, Wolfowitz, Feith, Chertoff, Stephen Hadley and Condoleezza Rice occupied, yet didn't serve in the military--or even the CIA, DIA or NSA. (The men I named came of age during a draft and a war. How'd they avoid that?)

What of all those public sector employees who served in the military or are reservists? Many reservists in my squadron work at NAS Pax River. They either retired or left active duty after one or two tours and then obtained a job with the Navy. Are they a bunch of lazy, graspers? Well, even if they are, they deserve that paycheck more than those assholes I listed above.

April 4, 2008 5:34 PM

tomeg said:

Obama's greatest vulnerability is his paper trail, deficient in demonstrated experience. Moreover, when the risky (for him) votes came up in the Senate as often as not he sat on the bench (or equivocated). Can we really count on the guy to stick to his guns and act when the tough decisions have to be made? Will he fish or cut bait? Take a risk?

Economy, #1 voter concern) Will he won't he raise your taxes, no bulls**t? He better have a rock solid answer, one he's prepared to defend? You can bet McCain will have one. Ditto Healthcare, more taxes?

I doubt that Iraq will be as critical to the campaign as it might be. Bush&Cie. still have a lot of control over events, more so now than ever. They can help McCain shape the debate, despite the war's unpopularity. I think Ahmadinejad and Al Qaeda want us to stay, in fact I'd bet on it. They won't do anything provocative until  after the election, McCain will suit them fine.

Another related issue will be the military, how Obama really feels about it, where he'll come from when Petraeus, for example, tells him what he won't want to hear. I'll bet the guys and gals on the ground will hate Barack's guts and won't be polite about how much they don't want him to their COC.

April 4, 2008 5:41 PM

tec619 said:

Oops. Wrong on Steve Hadley. (He served in the Navy.)  What was I thinking? Dick "5 deferment" Cheney. Now he is a fine example of the class. What's more, he used his tenure at DoD to create this logistical outsourcing fiasco from which he finacially benefited. (He paid Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root $8.5 M to study the use of private military forces and contracted logistical services with American soldiers in combat zones. B&R finds that, lo and behold(!), it's not only a feasible idea, but should be done through sole-source contracts. Two years after leaving DoD, Cheney becomes the CEO of B&R parent, Halliburton.)  What a patriot.

April 4, 2008 5:54 PM

tomeg said:

This will be the first YouTube general election. Which way will  that cut? Better hope Barack doesn't fumble in an off moment on any number of issues. McCain is better defended, by virtue of his  seniority and track record.

April 4, 2008 5:57 PM

psantillana said:

Wandrey, thanks for sticking to your guns on this. I do think Obama is - oh, self confident, cocky, sometimes strutty - but it doesn't bother me. Arrogant really is another thing. Arrogant is disdain for people who disagree with you, and I don't see Obama doing that AT ALL. Much more so McCain, who has actually cussed people out publicly for it, or Clinton, who is very much in the "with us or against us" mold of Bush, tonewise.

Really, it's a natural thing to have, and it's all over the comments section, but in order to work constructively with others you have to fight it in yourself. Obama's done that more than anyone else I can see, without abandoning his point of view.

April 4, 2008 7:20 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

First of all: tec619, it is awesome to see you man, it's been way too long.  I actually feel relief when I see you back.

Thanks psantillana.

Let's just say I don't worry about Obama's sense of self. Thank God. Do you? The last thing we need is yet another neurotic mess as President.  I don't think we'd get that with any of the three of them.  

They each have enormous egos, but they aren't emotionally unhealthy.  Hillary's thug act even grows on me every now and then (just not her whining, complaining side, barf).  I love Johnnie Mac and no one is more aware of his ego than he is.

I think going from an unknown to pretty close to winning the Democratic nomination - taking out the number one brand in Dem politics in the process - in 15 months, earns him a strut ot two.  He's run a masterful campaign, he's organized as hell and well funded. Yes, he knows it.  If he didn't know exactly who he was and exactly what he had in mind, he wouldn't be where he is.  Michelle is very good at keeping him on earth when he floats out there. He knows and appreciates that too.  

The popular man's disconnect with women does not exist in Obama.  He doesn't need to sexualize every encounter, to flirt.  He does not use people, women or men. He's handsome yes, but not tiresome and needy in that way.  Phew.  All three of them have that quality - handsome but no need to be sexy.

Only the most insecure among us are arrogant.  Only the most centered and confident are willing to listen to everyone.

April 4, 2008 8:08 PM

newdex said:

I hope everybody here defending Obama against charges of arrogance will remember this years from now, after Obama's been president for a while, and juicy stories about his "arrogance" have been told and retold, and analyzed, and improved on, and discussed, and new examples have been tortured out of virtually everything he says and does . . .  until his supreme, overbearing arrogance is a fact of which all well-read Americans are absolutely certain.   And you'll say, why can't everyone see that the whole case for Obama's "overwhelming arrogance" is built on self-reinforcing chains of conjecture and distortion?  Give me one real example of his overwhelming arrogance, you'll say, one actual example that's not either completely fabricated or unfairly taken out of context.  And no one will be able to.  But they'll still insist that he's unbearably arrogant.  Its not any one thing, they'll say, so much as all the little things . . . they all add up.  It will be very frustrating for you.  

April 4, 2008 9:41 PM

mundye said:

newdex:

Dear God I will fervently hope and pray for that day to come!

April 5, 2008 4:22 AM