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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
07.03.2008
The Democrats' Political Geography

Of all the things we're learning from the Democratic primary race, few are more interesting than what it's revealing about American political geography. Jonathan Martin notes that Hillary Clinton does exceptionally well in traditionally Scots-Irish areas in the highland South, which certainly seems to be the case. The flipside of this is that Barack Obama is performing equally well in the heavily white areas of the country--populated by the descendants of Yankee migrants and northern European immigrants--that historian David Hackett Fischer called "Greater New England", which includes "New England, upstate New York, northern Ohio and Indiana, much of Michigan and Wisconsin, the northern plains, and the Pacific Northwest, together with [urban islands] at Denver, Salt Lake City, and San Francisco." This doesn't exactly match Obama's strong areas--he didn't do well in upstate New York (for obvious reasons) or in heavily Catholic areas of New England, but overall it's pretty accurate.

Part of what this reveals is that the red state–blue state dichotomy that's become so embedded over the past eight years doesn't tell the whole story: Regionalism still matters, above and beyond that divide. As a result, it's useless to debate which Democratic candidate will do better in "red states". The fascinating SurveyUSA 50-state general-election polling should be taken with a healthy grain of salt, but it made pretty clear that Obama has an advantage in the red states of the Great Plains and mountain West (outperforming Clinton by 24 points in Nebraska, 23 in Idaho, 23 in North Dakota, and 15 in Colorado, winning the latter two), while Clinton has an advantage in southern and border states (outperforming him by 16 points in Tennessee, 15 in Oklahoma, 23 in West Virginia, and an astonishing 31 in Arkansas, winning the latter two). The only exceptions to this pattern are a couple Deep South states (where whites are so overwhelmingly Republican that they won't vote for either Democrat) and Virginia, which can perhaps be taken as more evidence that it's no longer really a red state or a southern state at all. It's an open question which handful of red states Democrats should prefer to compete in--Obama does better in more red states, but many of them are sparsely populated and won't go for him in the end (losing Utah by only 11 is still a loss). In terms of electoral votes it's probably close to a wash, which is what SurveyUSA found. Michael Lind argued in 2004 that Democrats should target a regional coalition similar to Obama's, but writing off states with as much Democratic potential as Arkansas and West Virginia is a tough pill to swallow.

Figuring out what's actually causing this dynamic is all but impossible. Hillary's a "fighter" for the lower middle class and the highland South loves that; Obama was aganist the war and Greater New England loves that. Racial attitudes and political culture (Obama's reform message is a perfect fit for the Upper Midwest) no doubt play a role too, but these factors are all so intertwined that you can't really unpack them any further.

Update: See also Nick Beaudrot for pretty maps and more on the relative merits of the two regional coalitions.

--Josh Patashnik 

Posted: Friday, March 07, 2008 2:46 PM with 19 comment(s)

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Andrew Davis said:

"Greater New England" is such an awkward phrase.  How about "Great Lakes Region"?

March 7, 2008 3:10 PM

AlanSP said:

I've been slicing up these poll numbers since they came out yesterday.  Some really interesting results.  Honestly, I don't think many people even considered the possibility that Obama could compete in places like ND (I think that was one of the Clinton campaign's examples of states that Democrats can't win in the fall and therefore don't count) and even TX (47-46, well within the margin of error).  Obviously, there will probably be a fair amount of movement in these numbers, but it at least gives a hint of what states might be in play.

A couple comments.  First, it's not just the Great Plains and Mountain West where Obama is outperforming Clinton; it's pretty much everywhere west of the Mississippi except for Arkansas, including IA, NV, NM, WA, and OR in addition to the ones you mentioned.

Second, I don't really get why "writing off states with as much Democratic potential as Arkansas and West Virginia is a tough pill to swallow".  Granted, it would be great for the Dems to pick up those two, but the fact is that they combine for 10 electoral votes, which is not a lot compared to the potential out west.  Hillary's most important electoral advantages would be in Florida and Pennsylvania.  These are the two biggest swing states (unless TX really does come into play), and also the two oldest states in the country, which puts Obama at a disadvantage, since ederly voters are probably the demographic where he's made the least progress since the start of the campaign.

March 7, 2008 3:54 PM

buffaloboy said:

What?  "The flipside of this is that Barack Obama is performing equally well in the heavily white areas of the country--populated by the descendants of Yankee migrants and northern European immigrants--that historian David Hackett Fischer called "Greater New England", which includes "New England, upstate New York, northern Ohio and Indiana, much of Michigan and Wisconsin, the northern plains, and the Pacific Northwest, together with [urban islands] at Denver, Salt Lake City, and San Francisco." "

Didn't Clinton win most of New England (Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island), New York, Ohio, and California?

March 7, 2008 4:38 PM

cspencef said:

Clinton won Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island; Obama won Maine, Connecticut, Vermont.  States-wise, it's a wash; don't have access to raw numbers to total that up.  

I can see the concept of a "Greater New England" (I haven't read the book) in a lot of Midwestern communities which were either settled in part by expat New Englanders or in some cases financed by them as abolitionist outposts in the run-up to the Civil War, my town being a particular example (Lawrence, KS).  Therefore "Great Lakes Region" might not be quite big enough to cover the territory, and GNE also encompasses the particular New England dynamic at play.  That might not be what the author is talking about at all, but from here it makes some sense.  

March 7, 2008 5:13 PM

jm_rice said:

As in the key-state strategy versus the fifty-state strategy.  

According to T.H. White's "Making of the President, 1960," JFK did the former (must win five of the seven key states), and Nixon did the latter (must get a simple majority of the fifty).  Both worked, but JFK won, suggesting that the key-state strategy was better.  Today, the key states may have changed, along with the merits, but the principle is the same -- super majority of key states versus simple majority of the fifty.

This is what the political geography presents, and a decision the eventual nominee will have to make.

March 7, 2008 5:15 PM

Rhubarbs said:

jm_rice, you're right, of course. A presidential candidate needs to run a reasonably broad key-state strategy. However, in general, political parties need to run fifty-state strategies, because over time that's the only thing that allows your presidential candidates to run winning key-state campaigns. If you're a Democrat, and you're fighting for Minnesota's electoral votes, you've probably already lost. But if you can shift the ground such that Virginia and Colorado are the contested battlegrounds, then you're probably fighting from a position of strength.

March 7, 2008 5:41 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

"A drunkard is a dead man, and all dead men are drunk."

Excellent post Josh. I actually copied the link to Martin's post with the aim of looking for a thread to dump it.

I think there's some validity in these sweeping generalisations.

As a far removed and distant Irish observer, I often fantasize how I would vote if I could. (Jesus, I really need to get out more.) Any sane and rational person with a soul, clearly recognises Obama as the more capable, charismatic, candidate and without doubt the most probable "change" agent (damn you weak brain! Can't you resist the marketing?).

Furthermore, Clinton is, at times, the most irritating, hollow, megalomaniac ever to grace our screens. And the rest of the time - she just bores the crap out of you.

But...it's in the gut, more than the head: the Clintons did help us resolve our own problems. At the very least, Bill's focus (Whether he saw an easy "historical" win or whether he actually gave a f*ck, we'll never know. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.) escalated the end game,  or potentially, even contributed to it.

They colonized the Scots-Irish brand long ago and Bill's now calling in the tab.

I think there's a certain sense of money owed in that demographic. I mean that literally. Certainly in our own media, "change you can believe in", gets no more than equal billing with "experience you can trust."

I suspect, and it's only a hunch, but I suspect those Americans who fall into that Scots-Irish category would rather vote Obama, but they find themselves paying the tab and ordering another stiff drink, and another, and  another...

March 7, 2008 6:01 PM

jm_rice said:

Rhubs, the main problem with the fifty-state strategy is logisitcs.  It's just physically difficult, and it's expensive.

"in general, political parties need to run fifty-state strategies, because over time that's the only thing that allows your presidential candidates to run winning key-state campaigns"

Not sure I follow.  Are you saying there are two layers, where the parties run, obviously in every state, as groundwork, and the presidential candidates then run key-state campaigns?

In the 2006 election post-mortem, some gave credit for winning Congress to Dean's 50-state strategy, while others said the Dems could have picked up far more had he focused more.  So, I guess the jury is still out on the merits.  Of course, It's always risky to write off a state, but time and resources are finite.

March 7, 2008 6:18 PM

Eos said:

Funny thing about all these hypotheticals about how Obmam is going to find amazing and innovative new ways to win:  Obama has so far won in places representing 193 of the 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency. Clinton has won in states representing 263 electoral votes.

Gee, what do you suppose that means?

March 7, 2008 9:23 PM

AlanSP said:

"Funny thing about all these hypotheticals about how Obmam is going to find amazing and innovative new ways to win:  Obama has so far won in places representing 193 of the 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency. Clinton has won in states representing 263 electoral votes.

Gee, what do you suppose that means?"

Probably not a whole lot.  There's no chance of Obama losing places like NY and CA, just like there's no chance of Clinton losing places like Illinois.  Hillary has some real advantages, which I tried to outline above, but "wins huge, solidly blue states" is not among them.  Arguments along those lines are specious.  Also, this may come as a surprise to you, but the electorate of a primary is different from the electorate of a general election.  If you check the crosstabs in pretty the vast majority of these polls, Obama does much better among Independents and Republicans than Clinton does, and these groups obviously constitute a larger share of the total voters in a general election than they do in most Democratic primaries.

March 7, 2008 10:16 PM

roidubouloi said:

pccostello,

That is, to be blunt, ridiculous.  The entire notion of extrapolating from primary results between two Democrats as to whether either has a chance in a given state against a Republican or, conversely, whether either is seriously at risk for losing the state in the general is complete nonsense.

What it means is that you have a particular ax to grind and are going to grind it no matter what absurd lengths it takes you to.  

If you want to do something useful, at least take the states that are seriously contested and see whether Hillary or Obama has done better.  That is still a reach, because it is an all Democratic primary, but at least would indicate something.  Neither Democrat is going to lose California or New York.

March 8, 2008 2:56 AM

roidubouloi said:

As I understand the "Greater New England" notion (bad label) from "The Cousins' Wars" by Phillips it is the observation that the pattern of American settlement was largely due westward.  Hence, the northern tier continues to share religious and cultural characteristics with New England and the southern tier with the Old South.  The exception was California which, apparently, apart from the Spanish roots, was settled in waves from -- get this -- New York via sea route rather than through direct westward expansion.  In particular, the Gold Rush brought a lot of Middle Atlantic merchants to northern California and the growth of movies brought garmentos and such.  Of course, the actual pattern has lots of eddies and currents that are ignored by these gross characterizations, but if you were ever wondering why the electoral map has this northern tier of blue states with the seaboards hanging from it, that's the general outline.  I found it convincing.

March 8, 2008 3:04 AM

roidubouloi said:

jm

Rhubarbs and Dean are right.  The electoral map is not fixed.  What makes a state blue or red is the success of lower level office holders.  You make a state blue by winning local elections for Dems.  The party if it is not to be relying on a constantly eroding core must fight a 50-state strategy at every election.  The presidential candidate then practices mobile warfare, devoting resources to the areas of real contest.

March 8, 2008 3:07 AM

epackard-02 said:

roidubouloi -- Your point may have merit elsewhere, but in Alabama, the Democrats are firmly in control of local governments, except for a few majority Republican counties.  By your theory, Alabama should be one of the bluest states in the country.  But that ignores the fact that local Dems may not be the same as national Democrats, especially if they are conservative Democrats.

March 8, 2008 10:07 AM

roidubouloi said:

Nothing is simple in politics, because nothing about people is simple.  It is important not only to hold local offices but to govern well, without the perception of corruption and machine politics.  People's reaction to a party -- still the most important "brand" in political life - is driven mostly be their experience of it at the local level.  Withal, it is surely better for national elections to be the local party in power than not.  Do you think the Democrats would do better in Alabama in national elections if the Republicans were broadly in power?  Besides which the presidency is less important than control of the Congress -- as we have now learned to our great regret (not that the Constitution does not more or less say that).  To that end, party success broadly is critical.

March 8, 2008 11:14 AM

jm_rice said:

Which is why I say, as a Democrat, that the Congressional elections are far more important this time than the presidential.  A bigger majority in Congress is vital, regardless who occupies the White House.  I'd give up the White House for sixty Dem seats in the Senate anytime.

March 8, 2008 4:05 PM

Robert Powell said:

Great discussion. I like the GNE formulation, and the broader settlement pattern explanation of regional political cultures.  In the latter regard, epackard's example carries a lot of weight.

The traditional Democrat excuse for the collapse after '68, when they went in a few years from controlling almost everything to controlling damned near nothing, is the racism and/or stupidity of Southern voters. The facts are otherwise. Southerners in general, Black and White, are simply more conservative than voters in other regions. Candidates like McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry have no chance.

The success of Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, both overtly non-racist but moderately conservative Democrats, should have been enough to dispel the self-serving fiction on the parties' left, but if not this election could certainly do the trick. Because he's taken reasonably conservative stands on issues like bailing out in Iraq, calling for Federal mandates on everything from health insurance to mortgage rates, and the role of personal responsibility in revitalizing the Black community, he's got a real chance to win electoral votes in the South. Hillary doesn't.

March 10, 2008 5:13 AM

The Plank said:

Via Matthew Yglesias, Kevin Carey takes issue with this quip in George Will's column yesterday about

April 25, 2008 12:55 PM

The Plank said:

Via Andrew Sullivan, Meng Bomin at Daily Kos has some cool maps with county-by-county Democratic primary

May 13, 2008 12:51 PM