TNR BLOGS

August 19, 2008 | 11:10 PM
August 19, 2008 | 9:13 PM
August 19, 2008 | 5:53 PM

August 19, 2008 | 5:17 PM
August 19, 2008 | 5:12 PM
August 19, 2008 | 11:32 AM

August 19, 2008 | 6:06 PM
August 19, 2008 | 3:49 PM
August 17, 2008 | 9:21 AM

July 26, 2008 | 2:24 PM
July 23, 2008 | 1:55 PM
July 17, 2008 | 3:56 PM

August 19, 2008 | 1:59 PM
August 19, 2008 | 12:43 PM
August 18, 2008 | 6:20 PM
COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
04.03.2008
Exit Polls Reveal Obama's Weaknesses

Barack Obama has rested his campaign partly on the claim that he is the more electable of the Democratic presidential candidates, but the result of the March 4 primaries, as outlined in the initial exit polls, show that he could have as much trouble as Hillary Clinton in the fall.

If you look at the exit polls for Ohio, and to some extent, Texas and Rhode Island, they show the same pattern that occurred in the February 5 contests, but that was submerged in Obama's intervening victories. Hillary Clinton does better or much better than him among women, whites (particularly those who make less than $50,000 a year), Latinos, and older voters. He does better than her among the young, among African Americans, and among upscale voters. 

The question for the fall is whether there are Clinton voters who won't vote for Obama and Obama voters who won't vote for Clinton. The exit polls don't really answer this question. The closest they get is to ask respondents whether they would be "satisfied" or "dissatisfied" if Clinton or Obama were the eventual nominee. The results tonight do not look good for Obama. In Wisconsin, for instance, only 17 percent of Democratic primary voters said they would be dissatisfied if Obama were the nominee. In Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas, 30 percent or more of voters said they would be "dissatisfied" if he were the nominee. That means that a sizable percentage of voters who backed Hillary Clinton may not back Obama in the fall. But Clinton's percentages were not that much better. They were in the high twenties.

Obama has to worry about the Reagan or Bush Democrats, white working class voters who used to be Democrats, but often back Republican presidential candidates. Bill Clinton won many of these voters back; but Al Gore lost them in 2000 and John Kerry lost them in 2004. Many of these voters are not participating in the Democratic or Republicans primaries--and they'll make the difference in November in states like Ohio and Missouri. But of the voters that are participating, Clinton did much better among them, winning over 60 percent of them in Ohio.

Could Obama win these voters in the fall? There is no precise way to tell from the polls, but one rough measure is to look at how racial factors affect voters. Many white working class voters abandoned the Democrats in the '80s because of the complex of issues that surround race--including crime, education, and welfare. Obama could have a problem among these voters because he is an African American.

The exit polls ask voters whether the "race of the candidates" was "important" in deciding their vote. If one looks at the percentage of Clinton (and earlier Edwards) voters who said it was "important," that is a fair estimate of the overall percentage of primary voters who were not inclined to vote for Obama because he was black. In Texas and California, this number is complicated by presence of Latino voters, some of whom might also be less inclined to vote for a black candidate.

In some February 5 states, the overall percentage of white (or Latino) primary voters who voted for white candidates partly because of race was pretty high. It was 9.5 percent, for instance, in New Jersey. In the general election, that percentage is likely to double; and some of these additional voters will be white working class or Latino voters that a Democratic candidate needs to win. In Wisconsin, the number was very low--only 6 percent. But in Ohio, a crucial swing state, it was 11.4 percent. That's a real danger sign for Obama in a state where elections can be decided by one or two percentage points.

In past elections, Clinton has done poorly among white men--a group that might be less inclined to vote for her because of her gender--but in Ohio, she got a respectable 55 percent of this vote, although that might be a reflection of these voters' greater discomfort with Obama. Clinton has also done less well among moderate and independent voters. Obama won independents in Ohio by 54 to 46 percent--nothing like his two-to-one margins in other states.

But Clinton bested Obama among moderate voters by 53 to 46 percent in Ohio, while Obama edged her among liberal voters by 50 to 49 percent. The same pattern occurred in Rhode Island, where Clinton won moderates by 55 to 44 percent and lost liberal voters to Obama by 51 to 48 percent. That's probably not a good sign for Obama, whose strength lay in his appeal to the political center. All in all, the exit polls show that in these elections--in contrast to those in Maryland, Virginia, or Wisconsin--Obama's weakness as a potential candidate in November may be beginning to surface. In so far as Clinton's problems are already apparent, that doesn't bode well for the Democrats, particularly as the nominating struggle continues for another month.

--John B. Judis

Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 10:45 PM with 90 comment(s)

Comments

You must be logged-in to comment.

Not a subscriber? Click here to get a digital or print and digital subscription to The New Republic!

lymon1 said:

Does this mean tonight's big winner was Kay Bailey Hutchison?

March 4, 2008 11:05 PM

roidubouloi said:

This is a completely meaningless analysis because it is parsing the way voters divide as between two Democrats whose policy views are very similar.  Do you think that white Democratic women over 55 are going to vote for McCain in November?  You really cannot predict votes in the general election this way.

The much better indicator, to the extent that there can be one at this stage, are the national polls, of all voters, that show Obama beating McCain and Hillary losing to McCain.  One should also bear in mind that on most everything that Hillary touts as a strength of hers -- tested, vetted, ready to answer the phone at 3 am -- McCain trumps her.  She cannot even hang him with Bush as he is more of an anti-Bush maverick than she is and they both supported the war in Iraq.

With what can Hillary beat McCain?

March 4, 2008 11:09 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Judis:

There is a huge difference between latinos/working class voters voting in a democratic primary VS swing voters in the general election. working class swing voters HATE hillary clinton.

March 4, 2008 11:14 PM

Eos said:

Texas is tied as I write this, and African-American precincts are yet to be fully counted around the cities. So Obama may well win the popular vote in Texas. But if Hillary does win the popular vote there, then Obama supporters have some explaining to do.

Obama was supposed to put Hillary away in New Hampshire, and he failed. He  was supposed to put her away in California, and he failed. He was supposed to put her away in Ohio and Texas--if he fails now, dispite enormous momentum, months of soft press coverage that finally became a national joke, and outspending her 4 to 1 on tv and paid staff, then there is something fatally wrong with his candidacy.

March 4, 2008 11:30 PM

ralphnelle said:

What roidubouloi said.

March 4, 2008 11:31 PM

lymon1 said:

VC -- so if working class swing voers hate Hillary Clinton, but they vote for her over Obama, they don't exactly have the warm fuzzies for him...  

March 4, 2008 11:33 PM

eweiss said:

seems like obamamania has relapsed into obamhysteria

March 4, 2008 11:33 PM

bhunziker said:

It's analysis (very good) like this that only compounds the frustration I've been feeling throughout this campaign.  I must sound like a broken record by now, by this year should not even be a question mark.  It should be the bag.  The Democratic nominee should be jetting in to support candidates for Congress to pad Democratic majorities.  But no, we had to go with two exciting, but incredibly risky candidates. Just imagine where we'd be if Mark Warner or Al Gore were our nominee?

So much for a 1932 moment.

March 4, 2008 11:33 PM

Rhubarbs said:

Plus, all the demographic slicing-and-dicing aside, Obama won most of the counties in Ohio where any statewide Democratic victory will be decided. It's nice for Hillary that she won lots of support in white rural counties. But those counties will go for the Republican in November. Toledo, Dayton, Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland -- those are the areas where Democrats need to run up big numbers to win the state, and as of right now, Obama is winning big in all of them except Cleveland, where he's tied.

This pattern was also visible in Virginia, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, all potential swing states. Obama wins biggest in the counties Democrats rely on for potential statewide wins; Hillary wins or finishes a close second in counties where Republicans can expect to rack up big margins in the general election.

If the trends from the primaries so far were to hold, then Obama would have a real problem winning Ohio in November. But his strength in other potential swing states would be such that he wouldn't have to win Ohio. Hillary would also have a problem winning Ohio, but her weaknesses in other potential swing states would be such that she cannot possibly win the White House without winning Ohio.

March 4, 2008 11:38 PM

Rhubarbs said:

pccostello: What? Obama only usually beats Hillary by huge margins, and he's got "some explaining to do" for the few states where he hasn't blown her away?

Explanation: He has won more total votes cast, in more states, resulting in more delegates. His lead in states won is mathematically beyond Hillary's reach. His lead in delegates is almost certainly beyond Hillary's reach. And his lead in total votes cast is only barely within Hillary's reach. Contrary to the Hillarista spin, those are real numbers from real results in real nominating contests, and Hillary is in second place across the board.

Isn't it Hillary, who entered the race with 30-plus-point leads in every state in the union, but who has lost most states by large margins, who has some explaining to do?

March 4, 2008 11:47 PM

roidubouloi said:

I wish I had a big spreadsheet all ready, but the pattern that Rhubarbs recites seems true of Texas too.  Houston, Dallas, Austin are all Obama so far, by pretty wide margins.  Only El Paso, of the urban areas, is for Clinton.  I don't know how the Times figures these "percentages counted" but it appears to me that all the rural vote is in and the count in the big cities is lagging.  If you grossed up the percentages in the four urban areas based on the Times reports of percentages counted, Obama would win the popular vote by something in the neighborhood of 100,000 votes.  But, as I said, without really knowing what the Times data consists of, this is almost speculative.

March 4, 2008 11:48 PM

Eos said:

rhube,

what you say is really a stretch. the general election in ohio isn't decided on a precinct basis--it's winner takes all. it doesn't matter where within the state she gets votes from.

March 4, 2008 11:50 PM

roidubouloi said:

I haven't a clue what pccostello is talking about.  Obama was "supposed to put Hillary away" in New Hampshire, California, etc.?  Sez who?  This is some sort of anachronistic meta-spinning that invents Obama spin that never existed, places it in the past tense, and then announces that it was wrong -- portentously so.  To the contrary, Texas was supposed to be Hillary's firewall.  "Meet me in Texas" she boasted.  (Sounds a lot like the boasting of Bush.)  If she loses, then he burnt through her firewall.  If she eeks out a win, it will be barely.

March 4, 2008 11:54 PM

AaronBBrown said:

So now the Republicans only have two real chances of winning the White House, the first would be through a major terrorist attack on US soil around September of this year, that George Bush conveniently fails to prevent, which he can then attribute to the Democrats holding up his telecom immunity bill, the groundwork for which is being laid right now with TV commercials from organizations like Defense of Democracy.

Or Hillary Clinton can try and inflict so much damage on Barack Obama between now and the convention so as to limit his delegate lead to a hundred or so, and then try and muscle the DNC and the superdelegates back into her column, jettisoning the will of the people and fracturing the party to the degree that whoever wins the nomination will be so permanently crippled going into the national election that John McCain will look spry and agile by comparison.

At this point I'd say the second scenario is becoming more likely, because after this we know that Clinton will not concede the nomination before the summer, if at all, and with each ugly negative assault coming from the Clinton camp, the possibility of an Obama/Clinton ticket becomes more remote, if it's even a possibility anymore.

Yes it was going to take some kind of miracle for the Republicans to win back control of the White House after George W. Bush, well ladies and gentlemen I give you that GOP miracle, Hillary Rodham Clinton.  She is bound and determined to become either the second best Republican president in US history after her husband Bill, or in a fit of shrewish entitlement she'll smash the Democratic Party all to pieces.

The only upside is that perhaps George W. Bush and the Republicans won't have to fall back on their terrorist attack contingency plan to get their anointed candidate John McCain into the White House, so I suppose from that perspective Hillary may be doing her part to save American lives by running the Democratic Party into the ditch.  :-)

March 5, 2008 12:07 AM

eweiss said:

there is panic in obamaland, but it it now time to take a deep breath and ask why this candidate who has supposedly inginited the new dawn of american politics, who has enjoyed at least a 3:2 funding advantage, and who has gotten hardly a smidge of scrutiny from the press cannot close the deal? As Judis points out there are some real concerns here about Obama's viability in the general. Moreover, as is clear from the poll showing that Democrats want this thing to continue by 2:1, this thing is NOT over. The process should continue. We will end up with the best candidate in the end. In the meantime, I hope everyone likes listening to folks with Philadelphia accents.

March 5, 2008 12:09 AM

seanwright said:

The most interesting weakness I saw for Obama in the CNN exit polls is how he fairs on the race gender question.  In Texas 23% of voters said that gender was important to them in making their decision.  Among that 23% Clinton won 58% to 42%,  Among the 75% of voters who said gender did not matter Obama won 51% to 48%.  On the question of wherther race was important in making their decision, 19% said yes, Clinton and Obama split those voters 50% - 50% in Texas.  Of the 80% who said race was not important, Clinton won 50% - 49%.  

In Ohio, among the 17% of voters who said gender was importan, Clinton won 61% to 38%.  Among  the 82% who said gender was not important Clinton won 54% to 44%.  20% of Ohio voters said race was important to them.  Hillary won those voters 61% to 38%.  Among the 78% who said race was not important, Clinton won 54% to 44%.

Looks to me like identity politics are a significant net positive for Clinton.

March 5, 2008 12:22 AM

miceelf said:

The big thing that Costello seems intent on ignoring is the huge structural advantages that Clinton had particularly in Ohio. Two weeks ago, she was ahead by more than 20 points in both Ohio and Texas. She had the entire party apparatus for her in Ohio. And even with a 20 point head start in texas, she gets at best a squeaker in Texas. Yeah, it seems like there ARE second thoughts here, but they're about Sen. Clinton.

March 5, 2008 12:22 AM

kimpossible218 said:

I'm an Obama supporter. I'm geared up for the primaries to continue. But it has to be clean. No more testing out John McCain's general election campaign. Each should advocate why they would be the best, not why they would be better than the other.

This cannot be about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. It must be, it has to be, about the Democratic Party. I don't know which of them is better in the general. But at the end of the primaries, I want the Democratic nominee to beat the Republican nominee.

March 5, 2008 12:35 AM

Rhubarbs said:

pccostello, the point is that a lot of the people who voted for Obama in the rural counties where Hillary runs strongest will vote for McCain if it's a choice between McCain and Hillary. (And, honestly, a lot of them would vote McCain over Obama, too.) So her vote in those counties won't go up between now and November. Meanwhile, she starts with a skeptical audience _among Democrats_ in the counties where high turnout among Democrats is crucial to running up the numbers needed to carry the state.

For example, Hillary got about 1900 votes in Lee County, Virginia, and that's about her ceiling for the general election in that county. Democrats could get zero votes in that county and it wouldn't change the statewide result. But Hillary lost by 30,000 votes in Fairfax County, Virginia. And Democrats win or lose Virginia to a significant extent on their ability to win Fairfax County by large enough margins to make up for all the Lee Counties in the rest of the state.

Which is why we can be pretty confident that Hillary will not win Virginia if she's the nominee, and the repetition of this pattern across most of the potential swing states is why Hillary looks like a loser in the general election. She's been strong in all the places where it doesn't matter, and weak in the places where Democrats need to run up huge margins based on enthusiasm and independent appeal. If she can't parlay universal name recognition, an eight-year campaign, and an early 30-point lead into victory in Democratic strongholds like Columbus, how can we expect her to win those strongholds by the margins required to carry their states?

March 5, 2008 12:38 AM

jmkerr said:

Gosh. TNR thinks the demographics are important and have bad news for Obama?

I guess they read the comments sections after all.

You can all grovel, now.

March 5, 2008 12:39 AM

ironyroad said:

It all doesn't matter.  The rhetoric doesn't matter.  The number slicing doesn't matter.  Understand this:  Clinton can't win against McCain in November.  Obama can.  Nothing is certain, but there is a major difference between a candidate who reflects the desires and loyalties and worries of a particular constituency that will vote for a Democrat anyway, and a candidate who has the possibility of moving the one constituency -- independents -- that can make a difference to the result.

Anyone who wants a Democrat in the White House next January should do their best to encourage Hillary Clinton to withdraw.

March 5, 2008 12:40 AM

tomeg said:

pccostello exaggerates:

"...if he fails now, dispite enormous momentum, months of soft press coverage that finally became a national joke, and outspending her 4 to 1 on tv and paid staff, then there is something fatally wrong with his candidacy."

Nice try, pc. O hasn't failed, he's done exactly as well tonight as he might have in any case. Contrastingly, Kitchen Sink Clinton did no better. On to PA.

March 5, 2008 12:45 AM

teplukhin2you said:

Obama needs to get past identity politics by carving out a specific ideological identity. It's bizarre that the man who supposedly has the most crossover appeal to moderate GOPers and independents is rejected so decisively by _conservative_ blue-collar white Democrats. He needs to devise a message and project a style and persona that reassure these core voters without whom no Dem can ever win the White House. Gaseous rhetoric and tent-revival youth raves are fine for increasing online donations but the honeymoon's over with the press, and the older, moderate blue-collar Dems aren't impressed by the Scarlett J and muslim summit stuff.

Time to step up to the big leagues. I hope he can, but we haven't seen much evidence of it to this point.

March 5, 2008 12:46 AM

dsmth said:

"With what can Hillary beat McCain?"  Experience, of course.

March 5, 2008 1:07 AM

dsmth said:

Bhunziker  said:  "It's analysis (very good) like this that only compounds the frustration I've been feeling throughout this campaign.  I must sound like a broken record by now, by this year should not even be a question mark.  It should be the bag."    It's beginning to look as though the Republicans have chosen their good side whereas the Democrats have opted for their dark side.  McCain and Huckabee make Hillary look positively evil.

March 5, 2008 1:15 AM

jmkerr said:

"It's bizarre that the man who supposedly has the most crossover appeal to moderate GOPers and independents is rejected so decisively by _conservative_ blue-collar white Democrats. "

It's not bizarre if you accept that he doesn't have any documented crossover appeal. Independents in primaries don't mean squat thanks to all the selection bias.

"He needs to devise a message and project a style and persona that reassure these core voters without whom no Dem can ever win the White House. "

Even if he could--and he can't--it wouldn't matter. The demographics in this race haven't budged an inch.

March 5, 2008 1:22 AM

sleepyavl said:

dsmth, experience? That's for non-idiots. Idiots prefer charisma and demagoguery.

March 5, 2008 1:28 AM

dsmth said:

AaronBBrown  writes:  "with each ugly negative assault coming from the Clinton camp, the possibility of an Obama/Clinton ticket becomes more remote, if it's even a possibility anymore."  A Clinton/Obama or an Obama/Clinton ticket would be a grotesque.  Please, no.

March 5, 2008 1:29 AM

rozenson said:

"there is panic in obamaland"

Really? Got anything to back that up, or is that just what you want to imagine is happening in Obamaland?

Even with wins in Ohio, RI, and the TX primary, Hillary's best case scenario is what? Closing the delegate gap by 5?

Panic is a strong word, my friend.

March 5, 2008 1:31 AM

Daily Intelligencer - New York Magazine said:

"Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years." Once again the immortal words of L.L. Cool J somehow perfectly apply to an American political trend. Tuesday was indeed Clinton's comeback night, and she owes it all to whites, Latinos, women, the

March 5, 2008 1:33 AM

fwslusser said:

First - When did Obama's number one appeal become electability?  I missed that part.  I think there are a bunch of pundits and political junkies who saw it that way, but not the people at large.

Second - If Obama's biggest liability is that he's black, then fuck it.  Clinton's biggest liability is that she's Hillary.  McCain's biggest liability is that he's a Republican.  Who cares.  They all have liabilities.  

March 5, 2008 3:09 AM

nturner said:

I'm dying to know how crow tastes.

March 5, 2008 4:07 AM

fougasseu said:

Why does one have to be portrayed as flawed? Both candidates are showing themselves to be smart, tough, and able to take a punch, with strong political instincts. McCain is going to get creamed.

And we learn for the umpteenth time that negative campaigning works. No real surprise. And while it suits the Clinton persona, is it really what the country wants and needs?

Let's see if the unity message works, or is just rhetoric, or the divisive, adversarial style of the Clintons is what America wants.

This now gets very interesting.

And congratulations to the Clintons for the Houdini act with Bill. How long can they keep him locked up?

March 5, 2008 6:16 AM

mpatrickhendri said:

Sigh. 35 years of experience. When is Obama going to get around to discrediting this nonsense? What experience? Is Laura Bush now prepared for a spot on the National Security Council? Secretary of State? This is absurd.

It doesn't matter, Clinton is finished. At most she makes up 6-7 delegates and she will lose those back in the next two primaries.

March 5, 2008 7:45 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

Does anyone have any numbers on Republicans voting for Hillary?

BTW - Congratulations to the Talkback Hillary supporters on the victories for your candidate.

March 5, 2008 8:18 AM

Eos said:

I think the essential problem that Obama is facing is that his rhetorical facade has cracked. This is a result of the the NAFTA deceptions and the growing coverage of his land deal and other relationships with Rezko. Both of these are his own doing. The damage of a cracked facade, when there there is nothing else there, is likely to be irreparable.

March 5, 2008 8:33 AM

roidubouloi said:

ntucker,

Belly up to the table, and have a second helping of crow while you are there.  Hillary eeks out a victory in Texas, fading in a couple of weeks from double-digits leads on the polls because Obama's campaign arrived.  There is no advantage she cannot squander because, the closer you look, the weaker she is.  She has less political experience than he, no foreign policy experience, a bad track-record as a manager and as a politician, and almost no accomplishment in the senate.  At least Obama is what he purports to be.  Hillary's problem is that her campaign is a great big fib and it wears through as soon as it and she are "tested."

Hillary may even have lost ground last night in delegates.  The most interesting thing that I have read in the last 24 hours is the couple of lines buried in the NYT article about last night in which it is mentioned that the party elite are beginning to see Hillary as an obstacle to the party's electoral success but no one, other than Bill, has the prestige to tell her to get out.  This is the death knell for Hillary.  She will certainly arrive at the convention with fewer delegates, if the party elite -- read super-delegates -- have come to perceive her as an "obstacle," she will lose.

That said, Obama needs to step up his game again in two areas -- he needs to find some strong, but not overtly negative comebacks to her attacks and get them on the air, and start repeating them, so that they penetrate the electorate's consciousness and he needs to hone his message to blue-collar workers, a key Democratic constituency.  Democratic white women over 55 will not be a problem come November.    Ideally, Obama would find a way to reach out to Hispanics who, as someone, tep I think, points out could put certain states in play.

The basic structure of the general election remains unchanged:  hold and energize your base, win independents.  Obama remains better positioned to do that than Hillary, and he will.

March 5, 2008 8:44 AM

Bekky said:

Keep dreaming.  Barack Obama has been sounding more and more like a wind up toy, put him on stage and the same slogans spill out ad nauseam.  I keep "hoping" for a "change."  For someone who's supposed to be so young and hip he's sounding stale and tedious, sort of like Michelle's 96 page thesis.  Today, I suppose, she's not so proud of her country.

March 5, 2008 9:18 AM

cspencef said:

I am always amused by the notion bandied about by many that Obama supporters (often derisively referred to as Obamaniacs or some such) are some kind of poor brainwashed saps, who have 'drunk the kool-aid' and are ultimately mindless simpletons repeating cult-like mantras about hope and change.

Yet, I can practically set my watch, so to speak, by the utterly predictable rants of various Clinton supporters found in these precincts (pccostello, jmkerr, eweiss...you know who they are) who, at the appointed time, will spring forth like a cuckoo-clock talisman spouting the latest from the pen of Penn, laced liberally (or should I say moderately?) with derision for the stupid benighted souls who have not achieved their own personal level of enlightenment.  C'mon, folks, you might as well be wearing the long robes and bald-ponytail and be playing a tambourine.  This kind of discourse is barely a step above that of the Ron Paulbots who used to be so popular around here.

March 5, 2008 9:34 AM

jmkerr said:

"Hillary eeks out a victory in Texas, fading in a couple of weeks from double-digits leads on the polls because Obama's campaign arrived."

This isn't true. Obama makes up the difference because more voters come into the primary--namely, independents and Republicans. Clinton didn't lose her edge among Democrats.

March 5, 2008 9:42 AM

Rhubarbs said:

pccostello actually makes a good point. The Rezko thing is silly, coming from a Clinton supporter -- to be for Hillary Clinton is to be in favor of personal financial corruption -- but the NAFTA thing was a major blunder. Really the first big staff mistake of the campaign for the Obama camp. You just don't talk to foreign diplomatic missions during the primary campaign. That's what November and December are for. Turned what should have been an Obama narrative -- Hillary's dishonesty about her own position on NAFTA, and the larger contradictions of claiming the first ladyship as "experience" while evading responsibility for her husband's actual achievements -- into a target-rich Hillary narrative.

March 5, 2008 9:44 AM

roidubouloi said:

Uh, bekky, that's the way political campaigns are run.  The candidates get up and say exactly the same thing to a different audience every couple of hours.  

March 5, 2008 9:47 AM

jacksondyer said:

Time for Gore to step in.

March 5, 2008 9:52 AM

roidubouloi said:

jm,

The implication of your statement is that the opinion polls were polling a different group than those who voted.  That is not the case (although of course the precise voter composition is never predictable).  This means that huge leads in the polls for Hillary evaporated once Obama arrived and starting campaigning actively.  You are simply mistaken.

It is also worth noting, again, that neither of these candidates has an overwhelming advantage.  Given that organizational resources are limited, it is to be expected that each while win some battles where they have organized to do so.  Hillary had enormous organizational leads in both Ohio and Texas that she came near to surrendering, especially in Texas where Obama made the bigger push.  The core fact is that Obama organized his campaign to win the nomination by winning delegates.  Hillary organized her campaign to win high profile victories and be crowned.  But another example of her poor political skills.

I agree with rhubarbs (seems I usually do).  It was a HUGE breach of etiquette to talk to any foreign country in any manner and Obama is paying for it.  This should never have happened whether the Canadians begged for it or not.  If nothing else, it is a huge presumption.  I think Obama would have paid for it regardless of the content of the discussion.  They need to focus on the campaign and what it takes to close it, and nothing else.

March 5, 2008 9:57 AM

arsonplus said:

pccostello, jmkerr, eweiss ...

This is getting silly. Before you three type another word you need to answer three questions for yourselves. They are, to fair, the same questions you didn't want to answer yesterday or the day before. One is simple, how does Hillary get the nomination without stealing it [in broad daylight] with the aide of a supreme court cabal of superdelegates? Second, I know you don't think African Americans count in the primary, which is odd, but I am quite curious to read your explanation of how a democrat wins in Pennsylvania or Michigan[where they voted in rather large numbers for undecided rather than Clinton] if a mere 5% of their votes decide to stay home as a result of question 1? Three, since Obama isn't going agree to be on the ticket with Clinton and is even less likely to part with his donor list, how will Clinton assemble a ground game [you know a volunteer organization] capable of doing any  better than Kerry's or Gore's [which is where both men lost their respective elections]? Please, leave flights of fancy out of any reply

Bonus question. What if that Clinton ad that blackened his skin pisses Obama off and he decides to bury her in over available closet skeletons win or lose [the Chicago way]?

March 5, 2008 10:14 AM

stanmvp48 said:

I SAW A BRIEF MENTION SOMEWHERE THAT CLINTON HAD DONE BETTER AMONG INDEPENDENTS THAN PREVIOUSLY BUT I CAN'T FIND IT BROKEN DOWN  IN ANY POLLS.

I SUSPECT THAT HE ALIENATED MANY OF HIS ORIGINAL YUPPIE SUPPORTERS BY THIS APPEAL TO ANTI-TRADE SENTIMENTS.  IF THERE IS ANYTHING UPWARDLY MOBILE AMBITIOUS PROFESSIONALS DO NOT WANT, IT IS GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION, AT THEIR EXPENSE, TO SAVE OBSOLETE INDUSTRIES-OR ATTEMPT TO SAVE THEM.  

AS FAR AS CONTACTING THE CANADIAN OFFICIALS; THIS WAS JUST DUMB.  IT WAS NOT NECESSARY TO PERSUADE THEM THAT THIS WAS INSINCERE PANDERING.  THEY KNOW THIS IS HOW AMERICAN POLITICS WORK.  A RARE DISPLAY OF LACK OF POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE BY THIS GROUP

March 5, 2008 10:16 AM

singlespeed said:

Jmkerr...Question about your last comment. You say that Obama makes up his deficit in the primary by getting independents and republicans who vote for him in the primary, while maintaining the democrats that he had, since Hillary didn't lose her base among (blue-collar whites, women, and latino) democrats. But my question is this. Do you think that the Democrats that are voting for Hillary would leave the Democratic party to vote for McCain if Obama won the nomination? You reiterate over and over about how Obama isn't winning Democrat blue-collar whites, women and latino base against Hillary so therefore IF he were the Democratic nominee he would not gain these Democratic voters in the General.

It seems to me that if a Democratic candidate is winning independents and republicans in primaries that that candidate has a greater chance of maintaining those voters in the GE than a candidate who doesn't even expand among the Democratic base IN a primary. As folks have said, the real issue of electability is in the GE is whether or not Hillary or Obama can get not just the default base Democrats but also get a substantial part of independents, swing voters and on-the-fence republicans against McCain. If Hillary is only maintaining her base in a Demcratic primary without getting more independents and republicans in open primaries (which could be used as a micro-reflection of a GE) than Obama...one could conclude she isn't going to expand her appeal enough to win the GE.

But as you keep saying...those pesky blue-collar whites are dedicated to a brand name regardless. It also seems to be apparent that many people still vote with identity politics - gender and race.

March 5, 2008 10:32 AM

boneill said:

Thank you, cspence.  I was thinking the same thing.  And isn't the constant repeating of the line about Obama being an empty suit over and over and over pretty much just rhetoric in and of itself.  Especially when I haven't heard why, say, pccostello actually supports Hillary?  When (s)he dodges all questions of policy?  

That said, of course, it was a fair win and a good win for Hillary.  I think if she is close in delegates and popular vote she has a case to be made for the supers.  It is one I wouldn't buy, but it would be legitimate.

March 5, 2008 10:33 AM

ChanRobt said:

arsonplus, if Hillary by August has won CA, NY, FL, MI, TX, MA, PA & OH plus all the rest I'm forgetting, and Obama is only 100 delegates ahead of her, she's got a pretty compelling case to the Super Delegates.

And, for that matter, the "pledged delegates" are not legally pledged.  They can change their votes at will.

If it looks like she's the only one of the two that could win the big states in the general, it might be comnsidered prudent to give her the nod.

Under those circumstances, Obama would, likely, not take the number two spot.  If she managed to get the nom without such negotiations, he might take the veep spot.  Why not?

March 5, 2008 10:51 AM

ironyroad said:

You can talk all you want but the uncomfortable problem remains that she can't get to the White House by just having Democrats vote for her.  That is why her primary victories are less convincing than Obama's caucuses in many respects.  Clinton will need Independents.  But it's Obama who has the much better chance of corralling enough of them to win.

Either way, McCain can sleep fairly soundly at the moment.

March 5, 2008 11:12 AM

butchie b said:

From the other side of the aisle, this is all great fun.  The most likely scenario is that she steals the nomination through a deal on FL and MI and the superdelegates.  Even though she'll be behind on delegates and behind in total votes.  Big states, blah, blah.  The above will likely fracture the Dem party and lead to an easy JM win.

But even if she wins fairly, as many other have noted, McCain will beat her, with the very real potential of downticket losses for the Ds.  This should be a Dem year, and may yet be, but HRC will stop at nothing - never underestimate the sense of entitlement.  35 years worth, or so I'm (constantly) told.  Defeat from the jaws of victory.

March 5, 2008 11:20 AM

roidubouloi said:

Whether Hillary's "case" to the super-delegates is perceived as good, bad, indifferent, fair or not fair is virtually irrelevant.  If, as seems quite likely, Obama comes into the convention with more pledged delegates, more popular votes (I exclude Michigan and Florida -- no pol will take those seriously not only because of the rules but because the outcomes would clearly have been different if they were real primaries), and polls showing he beats McCain and she doesn't, the super-delegates will NEVER nominate Hillary.  Prudent, indeed.  They are not suicidal.  Buried in the NYT story today was the news that the party elite is already coming to view her as an obstacle to success in November.  That's it for Hillary.

Chan's notion that she wins the big states in the general and he doesn't because she has had the edge there in the primaries is risible.  The Democratic base will turn out for either, despite the current grumpiness, and he has more appeal amongst independents and Republicans.  Her negatives are as high as her positives which, for any politician who was not married to Bill Clinton, would immediately be understood as the political death that it is.  She represents New York where there is a 2:1 Dem enrollment advantage, and she never had to win the party's nomination.  Her success in the big states is the direct result of her initial advantage in time, organization, and money.  Chan's point is particularly vapid because, of the states he mentions, either Democrat will win CA and NY, neither will win TX, and most likely neither has a shot at FL.  MA is obviously a Democratic lock too.  Thus, even if one thinks like Chan that extrapolating directly from the primaries to the general makes sense, Hillary's delegates come almost entirely from states that are not going to be seriously contested, making them irrelevant as a GE predictor.  Obama's come from states that are or could be contested.  Hence, if you want to extrapolate from the primary results, prudence makes Obama the unquestioned choice over Hillary.

Obama would not accept the VP spot because (1) he doesn't need it for anything (2) life as a junior partner to Hillary Clinton could only be hell on earth.

March 5, 2008 11:21 AM

walthamolian said:

 As a non-Democrat, and therefore somewhat unaligned in this race, I have to say this is one of the most interesting political situations I can remember.  I think singlespeed is right to point out that Obama's appeal to non-core-Dem voters has to be seen as a plus in the general election.  Yet, his falling into classic lefty attacks on free trade points up what could kill his chances away from the cozy confines of the primaries: he's too far outside the mainstream for his impressive rhetoric to carry him through.  I have to say I've been swayed by Obama's appeal to univeral values and community, and would consider supporting him in November, but too much economic foolishness or other pandering to the left would force me reject good feeling for common sense.

 Funnily enough, the last time I voted for a Democrat for president was in 1992, when slick Willie got me with his appeals to community and values (and when I was fed up with the namby-pamby Bush Sr.)   Clinton was a slick phony, in the end, but I have to say that he wasn't a bad president overall at least where economic policy was concerned.  Does this mean Hillary would follow in his footsteps?  Who knows?!

March 5, 2008 11:48 AM

arsonplus said:

ChanRobt

First, say he asks Al Gore if it's wise to put his future in Clinton's hands, what will Gore answer? Second, it would discredit him with his base. Third, he could win the state house in Illinois by announcing and easily defeat Evan Bayh  in 2016 or McCain;s VP in 2012. Fourth, he doesn't like Hillary and Hillary doesn't like him, her dream ticket float is strategic not an honest gesture so the point is moot.

Now let me ask you a question, how does Hillary put the party back together without him? I don't see it.

March 5, 2008 11:49 AM

LISAH said:

Yes -- but what does it all MEAN???????

And, TNR -- when're you gonna fix things so I could've used italics instead of caps????

March 5, 2008 12:31 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Gore won't step in. He's got the world by the ba-, er tail right now. He's insulated from any real criticism by both celebrity and big money, surrounded by adoring legions of bubbleheads in SoCal, gazilionaires in NorCal, greedheads in NYC and greenheads everywhere. He's supposed to exchange this charmed life for, what, an internal Dem version of the most bitter and painful experience of his life? Won't happen.

March 5, 2008 12:50 PM

teplukhin2you said:

LISAH - it's just politics, relatively meaningless.

March 5, 2008 12:51 PM

jhildner said:

Obama should simply start running against McCain -- in a really focused, strong, detailed way that hits McCain on national security and the economy and captures that ground decisively for Democrats.   Everything else will follow.  Catholics say that if you act as if you have faith, it will be granted to you.  Likewise, at this point, if Obama acts as if he's the nominee, he'll be the nominee.  At the same time, he has to get the press back on his side by sitting down with the Chicago press corps on Rezko and answering all of their questions (now might be a good time), and making sure that there are no more transparency snafus like the stupid NAFTA thing.

March 5, 2008 1:39 PM

LISAH said:

Tep...guess my sarcasm dart missed its mark....

March 5, 2008 1:43 PM

ctrogers said:

He's a weak person.  We can't afford another one of those.

March 5, 2008 1:48 PM

The Plank said:

Everyone should read John Judis' analysis of the exit polls, but I want to quibble with a point he

March 5, 2008 2:01 PM

roidubouloi said:

Yes, jhildner, absolutely, but he also needs to start hitting Hillary back.  He cannot just be her punching bag.  She has TONS of vulnerabilities (vetted or not) of which the electorate need only be reminded.

March 5, 2008 2:22 PM

roidubouloi said:

ct rogers,

Weak?  Based on what?  He looks to me to be a hell of a lot tougher and shrewder that Hillary, Bill, and her whole kitchen cabinet.

March 5, 2008 2:23 PM

teplukhin2you said:

LISAH - ouch. bull's eye, actually.

March 5, 2008 3:28 PM

teplukhin2you said:

"Obama should simply start running against McCain -- in a really focused, strong, detailed way that hits McCain on national security and the economy and captures that ground decisively for Democrats"

Bingo. But first, drop the tent revival-dopey rhetoric BS. It's profoundly irritating to serious people.

March 5, 2008 3:29 PM

jhildner said:

roid:  I don't know.  I'm skeptical of advising Obama to turn into Hillary.  Getting him to play on her level plays into her hands, because she gets to say, "Oh, look at Mr. Hope going dirty!"  The press will buy it, and he will be diminished.  His attacks have been substantive or have gone to electability, and I think they should stay that way, perhaps with a sharper edge but not much sharper.  Going really negative is a sign of desperation, that your back is against the wall.  It worked for Hillary with that stupid phone ad, but it could have just as easily backfired (as many of Hillary's cheap shots have backfired in the past).  Obama is not there -- he doesn't have to take the risk of making a clumsy attack that will hurt instead of help, especially when "poor Hillary" seems to get traction with some.  Let her do her Sybil routine, while Obama continues to build a positive case for himself and against McCain.  It will be tough to take him off track.  She was able to do that with the NAFTA thing but only because the campaign botched the response.

March 5, 2008 3:33 PM

wendy_schmidt said:

Here's an exit poll for you, albeit a month late. I voted for Obama, and at the time felt I would vote for whomever the Democratic nominee was. But I've changed my mind. If Hillary wins the nomination, especially if it's through backroom superdelegate operations and a sleazy bid to count Florida's votes, I will not vote for her. At that point I will vote for the individual I think is best suited for the job, John McCain, no matter what his party affiliation. At that point I'll be done with the Democratic party as well. Republican leadership has been very bad for this country, but it's the corruption and self-interest within the Democratic party establishment that's made it all possible. The Democrats are beating themselves because they can't crawl out of their own slime enough to counter the masters of slime in the opposite party.

Of course, it wouldn't matter much who I voted for, because Hillary will lose in a general election, just like when I voted for John Kerry.

March 5, 2008 3:52 PM

dlrocdoc said:

Judis has a pretty good analysis here.  Sadly for my Obama-backing friends, their candidate is now being brought down to earth by the press, and the heady days of playing the role of rock-star/savior are morphing into the grim reality of being treated like just another Chicago-machine Pol.  

People seem to be realizing that despite his soaring oratory and inspirational narrative, Obama is inexperienced, has no solid legislative accomplishments to speak of, hasn't established a pattern of reaching across the aisle to forge a bipartisan coalition, and appears to know close to zilch about defense details, economic/trade policy agreements, and international relations.  In short, he's stylish and slick with little real substance, just like a brochure for a time-share condo on Maui.  

"Where's the beef?" is an old slogan that still reasonates with certain parts of the democratic coalition.  Last night they answered that question in Ohio and Twxas.  

The voters that Hillary peeled away from Obama in the last 3 weeks can easily be scopped up by McCain.  Remember the concept of the "Reagan Democrat."  They are the ones who just pulled Hillary back into the race.  They don't vote for hard left candidates:  just ask McGovern, Dukakis, Carter, Mondale, and the eerie populist-version of Al Gore in 2000 who, breaking with 20 years of being a moderate, abandoned the center and ran left.  

Obama can't win against McCain, but Hillary might.  Judis just spelled out why.  

March 5, 2008 4:26 PM

tomeg said:

pccostello, thinking:

"I think the essential problem that Obama is facing is that his rhetorical facade has cracked. This is a result of the the NAFTA deceptions and the growing coverage of his land deal and other relationships with Rezko. Both of these are his own doing. The damage of a cracked facade, when there there is nothing else there, is likely to be irreparable."

There you go again, upgrading your set opinions and boring analysis to the level of wisdom. For a change, please stop "thinking" and start thinking. There's a world of difference.

March 5, 2008 4:33 PM

tomeg said:

Bekky unwinds:

"Keep dreaming.  Barack Obama has been sounding more and more like a wind up toy, put him on stage and the same slogans spill out ad nauseam.  I keep "hoping" for a "change."  For someone who's supposed to be so young and hip he's sounding stale and tedious, sort of like Michelle's 96 page thesis.  Today, I suppose, she's not so proud of her country."

March 5, 2008 4:41 PM

roidubouloi said:

jhildner,

I agree with you.  Didn't mean to overstate the case.  Obama cannot go after Hillary the same way she goes after him, but that still leaves plenty of room to get sharper without getting nasty -- the thing is to stay substantive in his criticism, but that can include here refusal to release tax returns, her papers, etc.

dlrocdoc,

Judis' analysis is, frankly, ridiculous.  You may be right, he may be right, but the idea that you can discern any of this by the way primary voters break as between two Democrats makes no sense at all.  Hillary wasn't "out of the race," she only risked being out of the race if she couldn't win Ohio and Texas, her "firewalls."  She just barely managed to win Texas and her campaign is basically on life support.  She didn't peel votes away from him.  Just the reverse.  She was way ahead in Ohio and Texas and who brought her to the brink. She is permanently behind in delegates (and it will get worse for her), likely permanently behind in the popular vote, and the polls, for what they are worth, show Obama beating McCain and Hillary losing to even.  Because neither Democrat is an overwhelming favorite over the other basically says not a thing about how competitive either is with McCain.  Judis' basic premise is way off.

March 5, 2008 4:43 PM

Bekky said:

Uh, roidubouloi, in this trifling election for leader of the free world, one would expect Obama's wind up rhetoric to contain a modicum of content.  But we'll continue to listen and Hope for the Change that would cause his slogans to morph into something real.  Yes We Can.

March 5, 2008 6:09 PM

jmkerr said:

" Do you think that the Democrats that are voting for Hillary would leave the Democratic party to vote for McCain if Obama won the nomination?"

That's the point of the Pew Report poll, which was much more specific than a tracking poll. 25% of Hillary's supporters would vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee. That is an enormous number, and that's what I've been pointing out all along with the demographic analysis. Moderate Democrats will find a lot to like in McCain if Obama--who never once made the sale to them, in any state--is the nominee.

Again, independents and Republicans voting for Obama in primaries is a meaningless number. No one knows why they are independents and why they are voting in the Dem primary. Selection bias prevails.

March 5, 2008 6:16 PM

roidubouloi said:

No, bekky, one would expect a good politician to speak to the voters in a manner that appeals to him.  In America, that does not happen to be with a lot of what you would consider "content."  Now, if you were the only voter, that might make sense.  But you aren't, and you certainly are not representative of the swing voters who decide these things.  In American politics, "content" is useful only for what it symbolizes.  The voters generally do not vote on policy.  Hillary's wonkiness is a big part of why she cannot compete on the stump, but she cannot give a speech on any other terms so she is stuck.

In the voting so far, Obama is nearly 600,000 votes ahead of Hillary in the popular vote count.  Even if you count Florida he is still ahead.  Only if you count Michigan, where his name wasn't on the ballot as requested by the DNC, does she have more votes, and I believe that if you credit him with non-of-the above, she still has fewer popular votes.  

You have every right not to want to vote for someone who doesn't give you the content you desire (although Obama has lots of policy positions you can look up), but your political advice is crummy.

March 5, 2008 6:32 PM

roidubouloi said:

That's fascinating jm, but completely impossible to reconcile with the national polls that consistently show an edge for Obama over McCain and Hillary losing to McCain or even at best.  Your very ingenious spinning and parsing doesn't mean anything in the face of actual polls addressed to the point.  The polls may be wrong, but they are surely far more reliable than any analysis of yours.  Your selection bias is overwhelming.

March 5, 2008 6:35 PM

jmkerr said:

"That's fascinating jm, but completely impossible to reconcile with the national polls that consistently show an edge for Obama over McCain and Hillary losing to McCain or even at best.  "

Tracking polls are useless.  I'm not even that reliant on the Pew poll, as I said. But if you're going to argue about future behavior, the Pew poll is much more specific.

Me, I'd say look at the demographics, which are very clear.

Remember, tracking polls say that Obama is making progress among Hispanics (45-55), but he got blown out of the water in Texas 2:1. So I wouldn't put too much faith in the same poll method that had Dukakis up by 10 points over Bush a few months before the election.

March 5, 2008 7:42 PM

dlrocdoc said:

jmkerr, what you said.  There's a simple reality here that cannot be ignored:  McCain is closer to the center than Obama.  

The general rule is that the candidate closest to the center wins the presidency.  The only exceptions have been when an incumbent President or Vice-President manage to screw up so badly that the voters give them the heave-ho:  Hence Nixon won in '68 over Humphrey/Johnson and their bloody stalemated Vietnam War, and Reagan in '80/'84 over the remarkably incompetent team of Carter/Mondale.  And neither Dubya or Cheney are running this year, so that option is out.  

March 5, 2008 8:22 PM

teplukhin2you said:

20 points, jm. The polls showed Dukakis up by _20_ points in late August 1988.

That said, you guys are wrong about McCain's strength. He's a lopsided candidate, all nat-security, no depth on economics. Fine when as in 1988 the economy's strong, but not effective when as in 1992 the economy's in the tank. Our situation puts us closer to 92 than to 88, don't you think?

March 5, 2008 9:26 PM

dlrocdoc said:

tep, your point on the economy is well taken, but neither Hillary or Barack seem to have any brilliant ideas about the economy beyond "Trust me, I'm gonna fix it, and bring Canada and Mexico to their knees."  So I can't count McCain out here,  

The big difference between 92 and now is that the cold war was over by then, the Gulf War was over after a resounding victory, and a temporary "pax-Americana" reigned over the world.  The only threats we had to really worry us were AIDs and the economy.  

Today, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Islamoterroism are still big problems, so I can't agree with your analogy.  Particularly since a lot of voters (including Reagan Democrats) still want to win these wars, rather than cut and run.  

As long as the average voter has to take his shoes off before he goes through a metal detector to get on a plane, nat-security will loom large as an issue.  

March 5, 2008 10:06 PM

adsprung said:

I agree with Virginiacentrist: white working class dem voters do not equal gen election swing voters. Obama does very well w/ independents, and large numbers of conservatives have a real soft spot for him.  

March 5, 2008 10:18 PM

guptatomic1 said:

Can we please just finally admit that both of these candidates are seriously flawed?  Hillary's too cold and calculating, and -- I've said this before -- Obama keeps making the freshman mistakes.  Besides, he's a crapshoot on nat'l security at a time when we don't have the luxury.  IMO, either of them can/should beat McCain, but allow me to echo a few other posters above:  GORE, GORE, GORE, GORE, GORE...

March 5, 2008 10:28 PM

roidubouloi said:

Hillary is the Dukakis of 2008.  If she hadn't inherited Bill's organization, she would've been toast a long time ago.

Okay, pooh pooh the polls. Let's all just wait to hear which way kerr and rocdoc think the wind is blowing.  That is surely a more accurate forecast of the sentiment of American voters.  Hillary will beat McCain because they can feel the mojo.  Actually, given how unreliable polls are, its actually good that they show her losing to McCain.  That means she would win.  And the polls that show Obama would win?  That means he would lose.  Why?  20 points.  Dukakis was up by 20 points in August 1988.

I love this "analysis."  It has so little to do with the realities of winning, or losing, an election.

March 5, 2008 10:35 PM

three putt said:

Clinton supporters being "dissatified " with Obama as opposed to Obama supporters being also satisfied with Clinton...this reflects the attitudes of the candidates themselves... Obama as the positive, loyal Democrat and Clinton with her sense of entitlement and frustration that anyone dare oppose her.

March 6, 2008 12:00 AM

dlrocdoc said:

roidubouloi,  I appreciate your faith in up to date polls, but they are essentially irrelevant right now.  

It's a long way between early March and November, and one thing is certain:  the political landscape voters act upon will be very different then compared to now.  The only poll that will count will go down in early November, and over the past few years, the early predictions of pollsters have been consistently embarassed more times than they have been right.  

On the other hand, as far as predicting the future, general principles (like the centrist winning) do appear timeless.  

It will be fun to watch.  

March 6, 2008 12:05 AM

2736298 said:

nice analysis of who did what in the past but not a lot of why then and why they are doing anything now.

why is it that people who make less than $50,000 are voting in higher numbers for the Clintons than Obama? is it because those people tend to let others tell them what to think (this is what they are conditioned to do based on the type of jobs that they have?) while people who make more (aka the

upscale? who came up with that box anyway?) voters tend to spend more of their time doing their own homework to come up to their own conclusions? same argument to be made for the people who did not complete a four year degree voting for the Clintons. i.e. don't generally like to do their homework vs people who did complete some form of 'higher' (whatever that is supposed to mean) education voting in higher percentages for Obama?

the differentiating factor between the two candidates seems to me to be. Obama is asking you questions like, does this make sense? do you want to fix it with me? if so, lets do it. (in the last debate, he used that phrase five or six times vs zero for the Clintons (search the transcript in your browser)

and the Clintons are telling you that, first of all you are not smart enough to understand what is going on, that only they with all of their experience are capable of understanding how things work and getting anything done and that everyone but them is wrong about everything and you need them to fix it and you have to vote for them otherwise you're screwed.

there is a difference in appeal. ration vs emotion. reasoned thinking vs a mental game.

So, the difference for the people of Pennsylvania is to decide which of those crowds they belong to.

People who like to be told what to do and how to think or people who like to think for themselves.

Will Smith comes into my mind, free thinker. Remember that scene from MIB? the one where K is trying to get him to join up and asks him these questions:  2000 years ago we knew that the earth was flat.....

Is there something that someone is telling you that you know?

And one last thing, Obama is not going to win any Reagan or Bush democrats because anyone with half a brain that was alive then and liked them knows that they were the instigators of what dubya commonly calls the ever present terrorist threat. Reagan and Bush put Saddam Hussein into power in a misguided effort to balance the rise of  Khomeini the religious fundamentalist in Iran. That whole move is what started the hatred of this country that we are suffering for now. So forget about that.

March 6, 2008 12:17 AM

singlespeed said:

I still can't understand how moderate Democrats can possibly vote for McCain when NONE of his policies square with Democratic principles. He's a supply-sider that will extend the Bush tax cuts permanently, economy? what economy? He has tacked farther to the right than when he ran against Bush in 2000. His foreign policies are a direct extension of the Bush ham-fist approach to diplomacy. His environmental record is all-over the map, he's inconsistent about his 'maverick' status except on two issues as of late - campaign finance reform and water-boarding. At one point as a left of center "centrist" I would have voted for him over Bush but now? His willingness to stay in Iraq for 100 years reflects not a sense of questioning if the current Iraq 'plan' is working but more of one of stubbornness to show he doesn't buckle. The reality is that 100 years in Iraq doesn't ensure us victory over Iraqi insurgents or Islamic terrorists.

If you take all of these candidates, none of them are perfect and each have their own weaknesses. But if your only concern is the winning the Iraq war and getting safely on a plane then vote for McCain because you know he'll answer the phone at 3am. I hate to say it, but traveling abroad, I felt safer going through train stations, subways and airports in Europe than here where Homeland Security treats everyone like a criminal in the name of protecting us from terrorists. But hey...if that makes you sleep safe at night, you vote for who will give you that warm fuzzy feeling.

This country needs to take a look in the mirror and truthfully re-evaluate how we're gong to proceed into the next century as a leader in the world not just a leader in our corner of the world.

March 6, 2008 12:44 PM

dlrocdoc said:

2736298, you seem to be a little confused about facts when it comes to Reagan and Saddam:  Saddam became the number two leader of Iraq as a result of the coup of 1968 (when Johnson was president of the US), consolidated power in the early 70's (Nixon), became the number one mister big general strongman in 1976 (Ford), and formally took over Iraq's presidency in 1979 (Carter).  

The Iran-Iraq war started in September 1980, before Reagan was elected---again, our boy genius Carter was at the helm at that time.  

Since Reagan didn't take office until 1981, your claim that "Reagan and Bush put Saddam Hussein into power" is fatuous, and your conclusions about "why they hate us" vacuous.  

Everyone has a right to make up their opinion, but no one has a right to make up facts.  

Sheesh.