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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
26.02.2008
Experts to Obama: No More Harry and Louise!

As you may have heard, Hillary Clinton recently blasted Barack Obama over a piece of campaign literature, in which the Obama campaign insinuated that Clinton's health care plan would force people to buy insurance they couldn't afford. Clinton objected both to the substance of the claim, which she said was inaccurate, and the imagery, which was evocative of the infamous Harry and Louise advertisements insurance lobbyists used to kill universal coverage back in 1993 and 1994.

It's not a new mailer.  On the contrary, it first got attention early in the month, when it was circulating in some of the Super Tuesday states.  But it seems to have resurfaced in Ohio, which is why Clinton began speaking about it again.

While Clinton's statement succeeded in generating attention, it also sparked some derision. My friend Andrew Sullivan, for example, said Clinton sounded "desperate and whiny," while noting that "the mailer isn't that bad, for Pete's sake." 

Well, it seems a group of distinguished health care policy experts beg to disagree with that assessment, at least when it comes to the content of the mailer.  In a joint letter released late Monday, they condemn the ad in no uncertain terms -- and call for Obama to stop using it.  Here's the key passage (full text and signatories below):

Unfortunately, the Obama campaign is circulating in Ohio and elsewhere its “Harry and Louise” mailers that unfairly and unconstructively attack Senator Clinton’s universal health care reform plan. These mailers purposely revive “Harry and Louise,” the actors hired by the insurance industry to help destroy health reform in the first Clinton Administration. They make the inaccurate claim that the plan would force people to purchase unaffordable health insurance. Senator Clinton’s plan clearly recognizes that universal coverage cannot be achieved unless health coverage is affordable, and her plan provides subsidies to ensure it is affordable.

The “Harry and Louise” mailer literally takes a page from the playbook of the health insurance industry and other special interests which spent over $300 million to kill any meaningful healthcare reform in 1993-94. It undermines serious dialogue on needed changes to the health care system.

We call on all candidates for President to recommit to a civil, positive discourse that does not undermine the larger goal of quality, affordable healthcare for all Americans. To that end, we urge Senator Obama’s campaign to cease using a mailing that is clearly inconsistent with this goal.

The list of signatories includes some pretty impressive names -- from economists like Columbia's Sherry Glied, MIT's Jonathan Gruber, and Princeton Uwe's Reinhardt; to people like Nancy Min DeParle and Bruce Vladeck, each of whom had stints running Medicare and Medicaid during the Clinton Administration.  (As far as I know, neither Glied, Gruber, nor Reinhdart have formal ties to any single candidate; I don't know about the others.*)  Also on the letter: Peter Harbage, who was John Edwards' health care adviser.

But forget the names.  The letter's importance is its focus on why the Obama mailer is so disturbing. As readers of this space know well (maybe too well?), the key difference between Clinton and Obama on health care is that she'd require everybody to have insurance and he wouldn't. And, as I've written a gazillion times, I think the evidence suggests pretty strongly that Clinton has made the technically correct, if politically difficult, call: In a system based on private insurance, a lot of people won't obtain even affordable insurance without some sort of requirement.  (A single-payer system would probably be even better, but Obama isn't proposing that.)

There is, to be sure, a legitimate debate to be had over exactly how big a difference a mandate would make -- and how just how close to truly universal coverage a mandate can get us.  That's particularly true given the fact that Clinton has not specificed exactly how she'd enforce her mandate, although she has indicated she'd be willing to look at garnishing wages and imposing financial penalties if that's what it takes.  Insofar as Clinton has said her plan would definitively achieve universal coverage, that's a stretch (although hardly as big a stretch as the one Obama has made when he said his plan would reach as many, if not more, than hers would). 

Another argument Obama has made -- that it's better to wait on a mandate, until other reforms are in place -- is also a reasonable one.  I don't agree with it, for reasons I've stated before, but it's an honest and legitimate difference of opinon. 

But those aren't the sorts of arguments the campaign is making in this mailer.  Instead, they are suggesting Clinton would force people to put up cash for insurance they couldn't afford.  That's an explosive charge -- one that evokes the very worst stereotypes of overbearing liberalism and hands opponents of universal coverage a rhetorical bludgeon.  If Congress tries to pass a mandate, which after all is a key element of many reform bills, opponents can always say "even Barack Obama says it's a bad idea."

More important, though, the claim just doesn't stand up under scrutiny.  Clinton has allocated $110 billion a year for her health care program, which is actually a lot more than Obama has dedicated to his.  (He assumes greater cost savings; I"m still trying to figure out if that's fair.)  Some of Clinton's money will go to bolster Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program; most of the rest will go to providing subsidies, so that even middle class people get assistance buying insurance if they need it.  Kenneth Thorpe, an Emory Univeristy economist, told the Wall Street Journal that in his estimates that sum of money was sufficient to make insurance accessible to everybody.  But -- and this is essential -- Clinton has also indicated that if it takes even more money to make insurance affordable, she'll find it somewhere in the budget.  

The email with this letter arrived in my inbox late, so I haven't had a chance to get official word from the Obama campaign.  (I'll update as soon as I do.)  In the past, campaign spokesmen have said they think it's a fair mailer.  If they have more to say, I'm guessing that they will argue that, until Clinton provides a precise definition of "affordability," there's always the possibility she'd be asking people to pay more than they should. But that seems like a pretty remote possibility to me, given not just the budgetary commitment Clinton has made but also her own political history.  Does anybody seriously believe she would sign a law forcing families making $40,000 a year to give up basic necessities in order to pay for exorbitantly priced health insurance?  (For that matter, does anybody believe Ted Kennedy, John Dingell, and the rest of the Democrats in Congress would ever vote for such a measure?) 

Obama says he's genuinely committed both to universal health insurance and to fostering a new politics free of old-fashioned demogoguery.  I'd like to believe him and, more often than not, I do.  But the reemergence of this mailer makes me wonder if I'm being naive.

Still, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention one other thing: Notwithstanding these attacks and the fact that Obama's plan seems less appealing to me than Clinton's, the differences between the two still pale in comparison to the differences they both have with presumptive Republican nominee John McCain.  But you can read about that here, in the dead-tree edition of TNR. 

--Jonathan Cohn

 *UPDATE: Just to be clear, one of the signatories, Cal-Berkeley economist and former Clinton Administration official Laura Tyson, is a senior economic adviser to the Clinton campaign.  Jeanne Lambrew of the University of Texas-Austin has said she advised the Clinton campaign on a few occasions, although my understanding is that it was all rather informal.  In any event, I didn't mean to imply none of the people signing the letter had formally backed Clinton.  (Looking down the list, there may be some others.)  As with the last group letter in this debate, which also came with an impressive list of intellectuals backing it, the signatories include some people tied to the campaign.  But I was more struck -- as I was then -- by the high-profile names like Gruber, Glied, and Reinhardt whom I know not to be affiliated.    

**ANOTHER UPDATE: Just to be clear about one more thing, if you're sick of reading about this, believe me when I say I'm sick of writing about it.  So for something different, follow the link to the article about McCain's health plan at the end of the item.  That's where the debate is going in the future, as it should. 

FULL TEXT OF LETTER

February 25, 2008

To Interested Parties:

This presidential campaign has lived up to its historic potential. Bold visions and policies have been offered. And the debate has been vigorous. However, a debate that generates more heat than light sets back rather than advances shared goals. This has happened in health care.

Senators Clinton and Obama have both embraced what should be a non-partisan goal: ensuring affordable, quality coverage for all Americans. They both have policies to ensure access to affordable health insurance. Both rely on an individual requirement with enforcement provisions to ensure universality for targeted populations. The main difference between their plans is that Senator Clinton would make health security a right and responsibility for all Americans, while Senator Obama would do so only for children and thereby cover fewer Americans.

Regardless of one’s views about whether the individual requirements in healthcare should apply to all American adults or just American parents of children, all people committed to universal healthcare can agree that our policy debates should focus on substance.

Unfortunately, the Obama campaign is circulating in Ohio and elsewhere its “Harry and Louise” mailers that unfairly and unconstructively attack Senator Clinton’s universal health care reform plan. These mailers purposely revive “Harry and Louise,” the actors hired by the insurance industry to help destroy health reform in the first Clinton Administration. They make the inaccurate claim that the plan would force people to purchase unaffordable health insurance. Senator Clinton’s plan clearly recognizes that universal coverage cannot be achieved unless health coverage is affordable, and her plan provides subsidies to ensure it is affordable.

The “Harry and Louise” mailer literally takes a page from the playbook of the health insurance industry and other special interests which spent over $300 million to kill any meaningful healthcare reform in 1993-94. It undermines serious dialogue on needed changes to the health care system.

We call on all candidates for President to recommit to a civil, positive discourse that does not undermine the larger goal of quality, affordable healthcare for all Americans. To that end, we urge Senator Obama’s campaign to cease using a mailing that is clearly inconsistent with this goal.


While the current and/or past affiliation of the individuals are listed, please note that the individuals listed are representing themselves and not their institutions.


Signed by (in alphabetical order):


Louis Cooper, MD

Former President, American Academy of Pediatrics

Nancy-Ann DeParle, JD

Former Administrator, HCFA (now CMS)

Sherry Glied, PhD

Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University

Jonathan Gruber, PhD

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Peter Harbage

Former Edwards Health Advisor

David Kessler, MD

Former Commissioner, FDA

Jeanne Lambrew, PhD

LBJ School of Public Affairs, University of Texas at Austin

Jack Lewin, MD

American College of Cardiology

Karen Pollitz

Health Policy Institute, Georgetown University

Irwin Redlener, MD

Children’s Health Fund

Uwe Reinhardt, PhD

Princeton University

Elena Rios, MD

National Hispanic Medical Association

Alice Rivlin, PhD

Former Director, Congressional Budget Office

Sara Rosenbaum, JD

School of Public health and Health Services, The George Washington University

Allan Rosenfeld, MD

Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University

Donna Shalala, PhD

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services

Laura Tyson, PhD

Haas School of Business, University of California, Berkeley

Bruce Vladeck, PhD

Former Administrator, HCFA (now CMS)

Alan Weil, JD

National Academy for State Health Policy

Posted: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:39 AM with 34 comment(s)

Comments

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huntlib said:

Yeah, having a mandate means more people will be covered. Sounds pretty compassionate, right?

Except....The mandate is essentially *punitive*. It's designed to punish people for gaming the system. According to Hillary, they're freeloading, pushing up the costs for the already-insured.

Funny, it doesn't sound too compassionate when it's put in those terms.

February 26, 2008 5:41 AM

dpinkert said:

Instead of continuing to hector Obama on this issue, why not write plainly about your own position?  Do you or do you not advocate that folks who do not need comprehensive health insurance (as opposed to major medical coverage) be required to carry it?  And isn't the crux of your argument that such a requirement would help keep costs down for those who do need comprehensive health insurance?

February 26, 2008 5:47 AM

huntlib said:

...and, I should add, all of the signatories are already insured. Glad they're making sure none of those poor people is gaming the system. Somebody has to be the police around here.

February 26, 2008 6:00 AM

Eos said:

Thank god there has finally been a clear and powerful calling of Obama to account. CNN, in their late broadcasts last night, did a similar de-bunking of the Obama mailer attacking Hillary on NAFTA, whcih she has a long record of criticizing, not describing as a "boon."

It is noteworthy that Obama doesn't apologize for these mailers. He doesn't even stop using them.

I guess he's just too morally elevated to do anything wrong. (A common characteristic of messianic narcissism is the sense that the normal rules and considerations don't apply to you.)

February 26, 2008 6:25 AM

miceelf said:

Well, I think a mandate is better than no mandate, and single payer is better than the current private insurance mess. But I don't think the combination of mandate and the current private insurance mess is the answer.

And PC, didn't you get the memo? Obama is a cult leader was LAST WEEK's meme.

February 26, 2008 7:50 AM

purcellneil said:

I'm supporting Obama, but he's wrong about the mandate.  If the goal is something affordable, then you need everyone in the pool.  Hillary's plan will deliver health coverage to more people, at lower cost, than will Obama's.

If I were voting only on health care policy, Obama would not be my candidate.  

Neil

February 26, 2008 8:04 AM

dbuck said:

No offense to the distinguished signatories but "ensuring affordable, quality coverage for all Americans," is not a goal but the nut of the problem.

"Quality health care" -- which is a level of health somewhere in the grammatically incorrect, amorphous zone between good health care and high-quality health care -- is laudable but expensive.

How to make the expensive affordable is the challenge.

Put it another way.  There are three questions that need to be answered:  Who will be covered?What will be covered?  How will it be paid for?

Notice I am not supplying the answers.

Dan

February 26, 2008 8:09 AM

purcellneil said:

dpinkert,

Mr Cohn has written extensively (and plainly enough) on this subject.  As for hectorig Mr Obama, I don't really think that's a fair summary of his book and many articles.  Consider, for example,  the article he linked to above, which addresses the mandate:

www.tnr.com/.../story.html

Neil

February 26, 2008 8:11 AM

timteeter said:

I repeat my comment the last time this came up: I see nothing wrong with reminding voters, however subtly, of how much HRC screwed up health care reform the last time.  That at least is an honest connection, unlike the obvious subtext of the recent Drudge photo flap.

I note this time that the letter from these economists has just two sentences--that do not address the question of garnishing wages--on the actual issue of whether or not HRC's plan provides affordable health care.  In other words, only two sentences--and just bare assertions at that--on substance in a letter complaining about a lack of substance.  Much the better part of the letter focuses on the mailer's subtext, and I was unaware that a degree in economics made one an authority on advertising.

February 26, 2008 8:36 AM

timteeter said:

And BTW, when it comes to "connections to the campaign," for whom do you suppose Donna Shalala and Laura Tyson used to work?

February 26, 2008 8:40 AM

jpbps said:

WHAT CAME FIRST OBAMA'S MAILER OR CLINTON'S ATTACKS ON OBAMA SAYING THAT HE DID NOT OFFER UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE AND THAT HE WANTED 15 MILLION PEOPLE TO SUFFER!?

And please in all of these health care debates I have never, never seen one of these mandate people take on the problems that are happening in Mass!

NEVER!

The always side step.

February 26, 2008 8:49 AM

jpbps said:

For insight into how Obama might have designed is Health Care plan look at this article in this magazine:

www.tnr.com/.../story.html

THE AUDACITY OF DATA

February 26, 2008 8:57 AM

Jonathan Cohn said:

jpbps-

I discuss all of this -- the derivation of the 15 million figure and its meaning, the relevance of Massachusetts -- in the links in the item above.  It's where I talk about having written on this a gazillion times.

You'll find more discussion in an open letter by three prominent health economists (including Jon Gruber, referenced above).  It's here: www.newamerica.net/.../health_debate_reality_check_role_individual_requirements

There's room for disagreement on some of these matters.  I know the Obama campaign feels the Masachusetts experience proves their point (well, one of their points).  But even if they are right about that -- and, for reasons you can see for yourself, I think they're wrong -- it still doesn't justify the charge in the mailer.

February 26, 2008 9:33 AM

Jonathan Cohn said:

purcellneil... thanks for pointing that out.

February 26, 2008 9:41 AM

Rhubarbs said:

If I'm reading the letter right, the real complaint is the symbolism of Obama's mailer, not the substance of his argument.

And the symbolism complaint boils down to this: It's unfair to use a white couple to illustrate criticism of any health care proposal.

That's it. That's all there is. Any white couple depicted in a household setting can equally be construed as a "Harry & Louise" reference. And what if the Obama mailer showed, say, a black couple, or a Latino couple? Hillary's supporters would still whine about "Harry & Louise," only they'd add the charge of cynical race-pandering. There's simply no way to avoid the "Harry & Louise" charge with any imagery that depicts actual people. So the "Harry & Louise" charge is exactly equivalent to Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism" charge -- a definition that includes everything means nothing.

February 26, 2008 9:55 AM

dpinkert said:

Has Cohn, in fact, discussed whether or not some of us need nothing more than major medical coverage?  If so, has he discussed it on this website?

A lot of the arguments I've seen on mandates do not distinguish between comprehensive and major medical coverage.

February 26, 2008 10:07 AM

gregstolhand said:

Obama naming specific policies doesn't matter for 2 reasons.

Reason1.  The average voter has no idea beyond huge sound bites what any candidate stands for on specific issues. The only thing Obama has to defend is that he has some substance and some plan at some point (his website has the specifics pretty well laid out for me).  No one cares about details, no one has the time other than people like TNR posters to go over the details and debate whose plan is better.  Example of how voters have no idea on specifics, Conservatives=Pro-Family (even though McCain may have had affairs and is divorced)  Liberals= Chaotic Family values(even though both candidates are married, with HRC enduring challenges to her marriage that most could not bear and sticking with it), 2004 Catholic voters align with Bush, when Kerry is a Catholic.

Reason 2.  Leadership can use a carrot or a stick as a motivator for the general public to get things done.  BHO uses the carrot to challenge us to be better and believe we can change things for the better (a pretty compelling message and one that resonates with the American ideal).  HRC uses the stick to say that she will whip the conservatives into shpe and fight back and use government to make things right.  Both have times and places where they can be effective.  In this time the "movement" is heading towards believing we can do better and we don't need specifics to make it any more real.

February 26, 2008 10:19 AM

Jonathan Cohn said:

dpinkert-

Absolutely.  Major Medical won't cover it.  I've discussed this many times -- in my book, in my articles on the subject.

Note that Clinton (Iike Edwards and obama) has indicated that "coverage" means something along the lines of what federal employees and members of Congress get.  That's clearly comprehensive coverage, not major medical.  

February 26, 2008 10:25 AM

blackton said:

So Hillary can criticize Obama not having a mandate, but Obama can't point out Mandates failings? uh, yeah, not too persuasive. This, of course, also ignores what the Republicans will do with the issue. "Government is forcing you to send money to a for profit industry merely on the condition of being alive."

And no talk about compliance or it's attendant costs. Right now we can't verify that every registered car has insurance, so how are we to make sure every individual has insurance? Will we be mandated to carry the card with us at all times?

And of course illegals and Permanent residents are frozen out of the system, no subsidies for them, but are they mandated to buy insurance as well? Good luck with that. Pardon me, but aren't they one of the biggest problems we have? Hillary: Universal Health Care; but not really. Only citizens need apply, we will pretend the rest don't exist just so I can beat up on Obama.

Here is an idea. Just raise medicaid taxes, use that money to reimburse hospitals for charity care, and refund the money to people who have insurance, only needing to write the name and policy number on tax forms to be eligible for it. Compliance will be universal since it will be done by employers, and will not rely on taxpayers to purchase it with after tax income, the only people who will be paying this tax, essentially, will be the uninsured, and since they would still be liable for medical expenses acts as an incentive to purchase on their own. And best of all, it will be based on percentage of income, so wealthy free riders will pay a far higher share.

We are already conditioned to pay this tax so maybe it is too simple for the experts to figure out. By the way, this is how the Japanese deal with it, through taxes. No, Hillary has to choose the most politically divisive idea out there and shove it down our throats.

Hillary and her experts have already screwed it up so badly that Health Care reform was put back a generation.

February 26, 2008 10:26 AM

ralphnelle said:

Mr. Cohn,

Instead of an appeal to authorities who agree with you, how about some new arguments? Rhubarbs is right: instead of a serious and unemotional response to the garnishing wages argument, this is just more of the same fist pounding outrage.

You identified the central point:

"I'm guessing that they will argue that, until Clinton provides a precise definition of "affordability," there's always the possibility she'd be asking people to pay more than they should."

But then you dismiss it quickly for being unrealistic. But that is precisely Obama's argument: individuals have their own ideas about "affordability." If we want an "honest discussion," we need to address this problem head on, not with hand waiving.

February 26, 2008 10:42 AM

timteeter said:

A further point:  HRC has stated repeatedly that if you start out conceding "universal" coverage (i.e. mandates), the opposition will whittle you to death.  The suggestion is that Obama concedes too much at the start.  

That might be a fair charge *coming from anyone other than HRC,*  a fair point, perhaps, if Obama and Clinton were neutral figures who would both, if President, begin from the same starting line.  But they're not.  *Hillary has a history*, one the Republicans can use against her and her plan.

What HRC does NOT say is that, since she screwed up health care the last time and is widely distrusted on questions of "big government," *she* will of necessity start out in effect conceding just as much, *if not more.* Edwards might have had less baggage, but he's out of the race.  That's why the "Harry and Louise" reminder, if that's what it is, is actually quite useful.

Unfair?  Maybe.  Too bad.  It's the political reality.

February 26, 2008 11:06 AM

Daily Intelligencer - New York Magazine said:

“Meet me in Ohio” was Hillary Clinton’s challenge to Barack Obama over the weekend. Never mind that the two were already scheduled to debate there tonight (“See you Tuesday!” would have been less dramatic). Their last debate

February 26, 2008 11:27 AM

Rhubarbs said:

Also, it's worth remembering that "Harry & Louise" and attacks from the GOP didn't kill Hillarycare in 1994. Hillary's inability to hold together narrow Democratic majorities that had already passed difficult legislation in the face of unanimous Republican opposition killed Hillarycare in 1994.

February 26, 2008 11:30 AM

weisbardaj said:

I strongly favor a single payer financing system with universal coverage for health care. Such a system would not solve all the problems of American health care--no system would. But it would move us closer to universal coverage than any alternative, would provide the best basis for administrative simplification and cost savings , and would provide the strongest basis for controlling high and rapidly rising costs of pharmaceuticals, technology, and fees. The plans advocated by Clinton, Edwards, and Obama don't come close.

As between the variants proposed by Edwards/Clinton and Obama, I prefer the plans with an individual mandate covering both children and adults to one covering children only, and believe that some such arrangement will ultimately be necessary if we move down this particular road. But this is, I think, a matter of timing and a study in grays, not an earth-shattering, epic battle between  virtue and vice. An individual mandate is very tough to enforce effectively and without negative side-effects. I am inclined to believe that Hillary's plan would cover somewhat more individuals than Obama's, but both would be vast improvements over existing policy, and neither would effect the major advantages, including but not limited to scope of coverage, of single payer.

The signers of this letter--the vast majority of whom held senior positions in the (first?) Clinton Administration--address the brochure in question devoid of political context. Senator Clinton has been trying to clobber Senator Obama with what is likely an exaggerated version of the coverage limits of his plan, and an exaggerated version of the benefits of hers. She suggests that Obama simply doesn't care about achieving universal coverage, and refuses utterly to credit that he might have plausible policy and political /strategic reasons (looking to the general election, and to the political negotiations that will be required to win Congressional approval for any major health care reform package) for downplaying an (only partially effective) individual adult mandate from the outset. On policy, I am closer to Clinton than to Obama on this point. But politically (in terms of both the general election and future Congressional negotiations), I think it is a tough call, and one well beyond my expertise.

But the relevant point here, I think, is that Hillary has not sought a measured discussion and debate over the complex tradeoffs involved, and has refused to acknowledge that her approach involves some casts and risks as well as benefits. Her approach to Obama has been punishing and demagogic (on a variety of issues, not limited to this one). All purity is with her. It was particularly ironic in the Texas debate when she invoked Social Security and Medicare in favor of her plan and against Obama's, while studiously ignoring the fact that those programs are much more akin to single payer than to any of the Clinton/Edwards/Obama approaches.

Signers, what exactly would you have Obama do in these circumstances? Is Hillary free to say what she will, while Obama is debarred from explaining the factors that led him to make a somewhat different set of tradeoffs in what are fundamentally very similar plans? This sounds all too much like a call for unilateral disarmament, in the tradition of Kerry's inability to respond quickly and effectively to the Republican slime attacks of 2004. Obama needs to show he can and will fight back. Senator Clinton's angry whining in response seems, yet again, a likely instance of her own psychological projection, accusing her opponent of tactics (and motivations) all too present in her own campaign. Signers, I fear that you are at risk of becoming enablers in this regard.

I very much doubt Senator Obama would be distributing a brochure highlighting the tradeoffs implicit in any system of individual mandates had Senator Clinton not placed her central campaign focus (beyond "experience", from which she seems to have learned all too little) on demagoguing a debatable tradeoff in Obama's health policy by accusing him, repeatedly, of indifference to their shared goal of vastly expanding the scope of health coverage.

February 26, 2008 11:39 AM

weisbardaj said:

Sorry--the past posting did not include my identifying information. I am willing to take personal responsibility for whatever credit or blame is due.

Alan J. Weisbard, J.D.

Associate Professor of Law and of Medical History and Bioethics, University of Wisconsin

Former Executive Director, New Jersey (State) Bioethics Commission

Former Assistant Director for Legal Studies, President's Commission on Ethics in Medicine and Research

February 26, 2008 12:14 PM

CharlesFosterKane said:

Jon,

Thanks for your input on the subject -- always appreciated. But I do think weisbard raises a good point: Hillary is the one who started this brouhaha by condemning Obama's plan as not "universal health care." The implication to most voters, certainly those I've talked to who were on the fence, was that he was leaving people uninsured who want to be covered. Obviously this is not the case. And her holier-than-thou mitigates any pity I might feel for her over Obama's rather harsh mailer.

Which, by the way, I (and other supporters) had problems with from the beginning. Can we all agree now that it was a tactical mistake. Did I really win over enough undecideds to balance out the negative impact it's having, bogging him down in charges of hypocrisy and negativity?

Also, what do you think of blackton's Japanese-style plan? He's pimped it (to use the Shuster term) on several talkbacks lately, and it sounds pretty interesting to me. But I'd be interested to hear what Mr. HC (that's health care, not Hillary Clinton) has to say on the subject.

February 26, 2008 12:20 PM

debbynewhaven said:

Mandates are not working in Massachusetts. Employers would rather pay the $600 fine than insure people. Many people can not afford the $263 per month mandate. Secondly what happens when  the state goes into debt. Guess what gets cut down? I have been a strong advocate for universal healthcare in CT and worked with one of the founders of Mass. universal healyh plan. Mandates are not enforceable in practice.

February 26, 2008 2:08 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Mr Cohn - I will be sick of reading about this only when I know that there are no Americans who are refusing to get medical procedures like DNA screenings for heritable diseases because they're worried about being denied benefits by private insurance companies.

Carry on with your brave and necessary work. This has to get done. No more excuses.

thank you,

t

February 26, 2008 2:55 PM

pedrichards said:

Johnathan,

I am sorry Hillary was labeled by Andrew as 'desperate and whiny'. I do see a flaw in your argument, beyond some relevant quips about its context, such as "the signatories are all insured" (which in a way foretold the revelation of Hillary connections to the signatories as well perhaps), such as a failure to identify the difference between Barack's "accusations", and Hillary's ideas:

'They are suggesting Clinton would force people to put up cash for insurance they couldn't afford.  That's an explosive charge -- one that evokes the very worst stereotypes of overbearing liberalism and hands opponents of universal coverage a rhetorical bludgeon.  '

or

'she has indicated she'd be willing to look at garnishing wages and imposing financial penalties if that's what it takes.'

'If Congress tries to pass a mandate, which after all is a key element of many reform bills, opponents can always say "even Barack Obama says it's a bad idea."'

What does this have to do with anything?

Finally, as you ask,

'Does anybody seriously believe she would sign a law forcing families making $40,000 a year to give up basic necessities in order to pay for exorbitantly priced health insurance?',

I don't think it is very powerful.

Hillary is, possibly, not only constrained by popular opinion, but is ignorantly constrained by this.

I am very worried you are being naive. Consider the possibility that she wields a rhetorical bludgeon as well as anyone else.

Peter

P.S. pcostello - if you want to suggest Obama is an imposter, or the Anti-Christ, do this without mincing your words, for God's sake.

February 26, 2008 3:30 PM

blackton said:

How much do you want to bet the regret these writers will feel if Obama is elected President? Something tells me their seat at the table has moved out of the room. "Oh no President Obama, we didn't mean it"

Please, this is a naked partisan position clothed in objectivity, completely transparent. It only became non partisan when it agreed with Cohn's position.

Love this line: The main difference between their plans is that Senator Clinton would make health security a right and responsibility for all Americans

Yes, we have a right to pay money, regardless of our true financial situation (ie. young people with college debts, new mortgages, car payments, who make a fairly high income) to for profit insurance companies for goods and services they might not use for years, all the while the insurance company executives get nice high bonuses.

Look, if you are going to mandate people pay for things, at least let them opt into purchasing medicare so that they won't feel that their premiums are going to executive bonuses. But we all know Republicans won't let that happen so Hillary already caved in on that score.

Another huge lie: and her plan provides subsidies to ensure it is affordable. NO; IT DOESN'T. About 15 million people who live in the United States are not eligible for anything. 15 MILLION of the most poor and vulnerable of people living in the U.S., Illegals and Permanent Residents, the vast majority of whom pay taxes. They will be left to relying on emergency rooms for basic care. Freaking disaster.

Unless Hillary addresses this issue, everytime she opens her mouth and utters UHC, she is lying. All of those people above have also lied.

I am a freaking nobody but even I can see what is a garbage Hillary ad for what it is.

February 26, 2008 3:32 PM

jeidel1906 said:

Until Senator Clinton is able to outline what the enforcement mechanism will be for her mandate, Senator Obama is perfectly justified in questioning her claim that her's is the only plan that truly creates a universal system.  That being said, his tactics in this matter are regrettable.  Looking forward to the debate tonight!  

February 26, 2008 4:58 PM

jhildner said:

Two points:

The mailer doesn't "revive Harry and Louise," as the ad falsely claims.  It pictures a couple.  That's it.  Harry and Louise were older and were on television and they said all kinds of things that weren't true.

The second point is that it is far more misleading I think to say that Obama's plan "leaves behind" 15 million people or anything similar, as Hillary does constantly, as though Obama's plan involves some sort of *exclusion.*  It doesn't.

February 26, 2008 6:44 PM

The Plank said:

It figures that one of the few times I can't watch the Democratic presidential debate live, Hillary

February 27, 2008 11:07 AM

The Plank said:

It's a near-certainty that neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama will finish the primaries and

March 7, 2008 10:12 AM