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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
18.02.2008
Former Clinton Speechwriter Weighs In On Plagiarism-Gate

We asked former Bill Clinton speechwriter David Kusnet if today's plagiarism accusations against Barack Obama were justified. In his mind, was what Obama did acceptable, or a violation of speechmaking ethics? Here are his thoughts ...

 

Barack Obama’s greatest strength is the originality of his rhetoric. Sometimes he talks like a regular person, as in his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, when he introduced himself as “a skinny kid with a funny name.” Sometimes, he sounds like a president from an earlier, more historically literate era, as when he situates his campaign in a tradition that includes the American Revolution, the abolitionists, and the emergence of the labor movement, the civil rights movement, and other social struggles. But only rarely, if ever, does he use the familiar freeze-dried phrases that most current politicians favor. To borrow a phrase from the UAW, the “domestic content” of his speeches is unusually high.

 

That’s only one of many reasons why it’s so silly to accuse Obama of plagiarism because he used some of the same phrases as his friend and ally, Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick (who, I should add, was helpful to me when he was assistant attorney general for civil rights at the same time I was a speechwriter for President Bill Clinton). If plagiarism is borrowing rhetoric without permission, Patrick most likely is happy to have Obama sound similar notes, such as hope and inspiration being more than “just words.” Even if Obama and Patrick didn’t know each other, they might use some of the same phrases because similar public figures frequently draw on common streams of public rhetoric. For instance, labor leaders often echo Walter Reuther or A. Philip Randolph; civil rights leaders draw upon the same scriptural passages and historical sources; and conservative Republicans repeatedly invoke Ronald Reagan. Similarly, John Edwards borrowed a rhetorical technique from his campaign manager, fellow populist and former Michigan congressman, David Bonior: His litany would begin “Somewhere in America,” and then he’d describe a social or economic injustice, such as a worker losing his job and his family’s health insurance. While Politico ran a story about this, it is hardly unusual for a candidate to share a rhetorical technique with his leading adviser. 

 

After all, if there is one sentence from Scripture that is literally true, it is this line from Ecclesiastes: “There is nothing new under the Sun.” To be condemned as plagiarism, a political speech needs to be grievously offensive--using lots of distinctive but little-known material from another source without attributing it to that speaker or receiving his or her permission. For instance, in 1987, Joe Biden once used, without attribution, a speech by the British Labor Party Leader Neil Kinnock, in which Kinnock credited social programs with the fact that he was the first in his family to have attended college. By borrowing the speech and inserting his own name, Biden suggested that the men in his family had been coal miners when, in fact, as Maureen Dowd dryly noted, his father had been an auto dealer. (In fairness, Biden had quoted Kinnock when he had given the speech on other occasions.) Does what Obama did come close to what Biden did? Absolutely not. Next scandal, please.

 

--David Kusnet

Posted: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:30 PM with 54 comment(s)

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teplukhin2you said:

Biden should have written two autobiographies instead. Helps to rehearse your lifestory spiel with 1,000+ printed words before delivering it on the stump.

February 18, 2008 4:36 PM

dbhuff said:

Jeez, is there no end to this?  What is sad is that this is exactly the politics of the past.  Instead of dealing with a real issue (HRC knows this and the 'pledge' are not real issues when explored) she brings up some flim flam just before a close election in order to try to win it.  

I just donated again to Obama and will be making calls for him tonight.  Thanks for the morivation Hill...

February 18, 2008 4:39 PM

ejbenjamin said:

Asking the opinion of a disinterested third party with experience in the field in question?  Clearly TNR is now simply a tool of the Obama campaign.

February 18, 2008 4:41 PM

tnmats said:

Just goes to show that reporters don't have much for brains.  I'm not a reporter and even I figured out this was a non-story.  Why do you clowns in the press keep flogging stupid things and especially "scandals" that aren't?  Oh, I know.  If you actually did real reporting you'd actually have to do some honest work.

February 18, 2008 4:48 PM

blackton said:

ej, but what did Kuznet say that was wrong? Is this a big issue or no? and ask yourself how is it that Hillary has so alienated herself from such a large segment of the Democratic intelligentsia. if they do stupid, pointless things like this, why should they not be called on it? And where and when has the Obama campaign done such nonsense themselves?

February 18, 2008 5:03 PM

darieff said:

DUMB, DIVISIVE and DISPIRITING...

With this latest manufactured scandal, the Hillary camp continues to present itself as the campaign of small-minded attacks and reactionary spin. The phony outrage over Obama's appropriation of phrases lent to him by his political ally, Gov. Patrick, is intended to send the (dubious) message that voters should choose Hillary over Barack Obama because ... uh... he's not as wonderful as he might seem? Is this a sufficiently compelling message? His rhetorical talents depend at least partly on the ideas of others? (This from the woman who clapped along as her supporters shouted "Yes she can!" ??) The lameness of this sort of thing is significant because it allows voters a peek into the kind of campaign Clinton is running and the sorts of people she relies on. Each new narrative sent out by her spinmeister Mark Penn, et. al, is more dismal and unpersuasive than the last. She has been ungracious about her losses, divisive in her strategy, and none-too competent at managing a national campaign. (And for the record, I'm a white woman in my 40s who voted for Bill twice, and who is just as turned off by the crass, sexist cable bloviating of Chris Matthews et. al as some of Hillary's most passionate supporters. But Hillary for president? I sincerely hope not.)

February 18, 2008 5:03 PM

drdannyu said:

I don't know which is more likely give me an aneurism -- "plagiarism"-gate or coverage of Hillary misting up.  If this race gets any more banal, I...I...well, I'll just get REALLY FRUSTRATED, that's what.

February 18, 2008 5:13 PM

jacobt1 said:

tnmats,

"Why do you clowns in the press keep flogging stupid things and especially "scandals" that aren't?"

This is what they do to HRC every single day. Finally, you’ve noticed.

dbhuff,

"Instead of dealing with a real issue"

I Agree that instead  of real  issues Obama is talking about  Clinton's periods:

"I understand that Senator Clinton periodically, when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal. "

February 18, 2008 5:16 PM

psantillana said:

This reminds me of Dean borrowing/stealing the line from Wellstone about being from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. He used it, acknowledged that it came from Wellstone, and nobody really cared - both because he never claimed it was his own, and becuase - probably most importantly - he earned the right to say it because of his opposition to the Iraq war and to a bunch of other Bush stuff that his Dem opponents voted for. It's a good phrase, because it's an effective way to make a point that needs making sometimes, and it should be recycled instead of retired.

This outrage over Obama doing the same exact thing has got to be fake; it's too nonsensical to be real, and it smacks of poor losership.

February 18, 2008 5:18 PM

psantillana said:

blackton I think ej was being sarcastic. well i hope so!

February 18, 2008 5:20 PM

jacobt1 said:

Please calm down. I think voters have a right to compare two speeches and decide for themselves what to think about this episode .

February 18, 2008 5:23 PM

timteeter said:

In fact, even Biden was unfairly pilloried for this.  As Kusnet notes, Biden usually attributed the Kinnock lines to Kinnock.  For the one occasion on which he forgot, he was hung out to dry by the press.  If Biden's moment was minor, three lines by Obama are utterly insignificant.  

If there was anything to this, then Wolfson and company should have just pointed the press in the right direction and gotten out of the way.  That way their fingerprints wouldn't be all over the story and it would only be about Obama.  Instead, this has ended up saying much more about the HRC campaign and their total lack of press savvy than it does about Obama.  

February 18, 2008 5:44 PM

jacobt1 said:

Blackton

"And where and when has the Obama campaign done such nonsense themselves?"

They don't need to. TNR and the rest of the media do this for them every single day and you seems to like it.

February 18, 2008 5:45 PM

timteeter said:

jacobt1, that you could seriously take Obama as referring to Hillary's periods shows how impossible it is to take your complaints about Obama-favoritism seriously.  Please see

slate.com/.../obama-s-sexist-dog-whistle.aspx

February 18, 2008 5:51 PM

Rhubarbs said:

Just wondering: Does Hillary ever credit Mitt Romney for developing and being the first to implement the health insurance mandate plan she's now passing off as her own?

February 18, 2008 5:55 PM

The Daily Politics said:

Hillary Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson accused Barack Obama of plagirizing part of a speech delivered by Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, with whom Obama shares a consultant (David Axelrod). Obama, who doesn't think this latest flap is any big deal

February 18, 2008 5:59 PM

sdemuth said:

Does it strike anyone other than me as odd that a candidate who is a retread of her ex-president husband would go anywhere need charges of non-originality?  Let's be fair - she may be able to rearrange words in a sentence to dodge the charge of plagiarism per se, but she can hardly claim to be fresh or new in any other sense.

February 18, 2008 6:00 PM

ejbenjamin said:

Yep, sarcasm.  I'm as rabidly anti-Clinton as it gets around here, don't you worry.

February 18, 2008 6:04 PM

jacobt1 said:

timteeter,

Thank you for pointers:

"Or even straight-down-the-middle Andrea Mitchell, who said on MSNBC, "When you start describing a female candidate as being 'down' and 'striking back,' I don't know, that's a little edgy, don't you think?" Karen Stabiner, the author of well-received books about single-sex education and breast cancer, wrote that when she heard what Obama had said, "That was the moment when I, and other women of a certain age, all over the country, winced. The change candidate had embraced one of the oldest clichés in the book—that women are held hostage by emotion, that we can't be trusted with the big decisions because, depending on our age, we're either on the rag or having a hot flash.''

February 18, 2008 6:06 PM

blackton said:

jacob, in 2004 I supported Kerry but went nuts at how ineffective he was in the general, from allowing himself to be swiftboated to I voted for it before I voted against it. I criticized him like hell because I wanted him to win, I didn't reflexively dismiss everything like many Kerry supporters did because I knew it wasn't working. it seems to me a supporter would be the strongest critic to get her on the straight and narrow. she did wondefully on Letterman and in the last debate with Obama. those are her strong points, she has 2 more debates with him, and can and should make another round of any and every talk show there is.

you are enabling Hillary by ignoring or downplaying seriously stupid campaigning. the only hope here is that no one besides us junkies will even know about this latest silliness.

February 18, 2008 6:11 PM

timteeter said:

"timteeter,

Thank you for pointers:"

You're welcome, jacbobt1.  And thank *you* for making my point even more forcefully.  That you would quote the quote ("Or even straight-down-the-middle Andrea Mitchell . . . ") and not bother to quote the quoter ("Beyond this accusation itself—so ludicrous my eyes might twirl right out of their sockets . . . ") demonstrates more clearly than I could that you cannot be taken seriously.

Interesting that a thread that began about lifting lines without acknowledging their source should end up lifting lines without acknowledging that the source considers them "ludicrous."

February 18, 2008 6:28 PM

blackton said:

yeah, sorry ej, after Kerr and pccostello I can no longer distinguish fact from fantasy with some posters. my bad. I should have realized that after lymon, kerr, pccostello, and jacobt (and used to be basman) there aren't any Hillaryites. but man, the nonsense that some of them come up with has my head spinning

February 18, 2008 7:04 PM

boneill said:

Nice pick-up, timteeter.  That he would pull that quote out of an article ripping on that quote as some kind of valediction shows how much of a clown he really is.   It reminds me of that absurd Obama-as-a-Muslim email which urges you to check out snopes.com- and the link goes right to the page which tears it apart.  Whomever wrote that email assumed that no one would bother reading it, and jmkerr assumed the same thing.   Sorry, buddy.

February 18, 2008 7:37 PM

boneill said:

Honestly, anyone who thinks that Obama was referring to Hillary's periods (she's post-menpausal) is either a liar or an idiot.  "Periodically" doesn't only refer to eggs detaching from the uterine wall, as far as I know.  But then, I'm just a guy who understands words every once in a while.  

February 18, 2008 7:39 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

I really like David Kusnet's writing - clear and rich, snark free, substanitive - more please!

We have now veered into menstruation-pedogogy - which makes the Clinton campaign offically a parody of itself.  

I didn't think the FL, MI stories could be a clearer example of such, but I was wrong.  In fact, we actually have hit the South Park Republicanism jacob mentioned on another thread.  The eagle has landed.

This crapola has been good for a much needed laugh, but it is also a perfect example why I will not vote for Hillary Clinton. Thanks for the inspiration once again Hillary!  You go girl.

I won't even dignify this anymore with rebuttals.

(BTW - How many people were killed in bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq this weeked/  100? 200? Aren't we lucky we can blather about such nonsense - God bless America folks!)  

February 18, 2008 7:42 PM

jckasper said:

OK, I'll give it the college try so this isn't just a stream of "yup, I agree too".

As a Massachusetts resident, I've been deeply dissipointed by the Patrick administration.  I feel we collectively got carried away by the hype during his campaign and now we're paying the consequences with a governer who is having a hard time getting his agenda through because he doesn't have political skills needed.  I think this is one of the big reasons that Clinton did so well in MA btw.  As a lifelong and ardent democrat, I and many of my friends have been speaking openly of the appeal of McCain if Clinton doesn't make the general election.  

So this is bad (but maybe it's too late for this to sink in with the public) because it shows that anyone can get good words (from your speechwritier, other pols).  Note also that they're saying in Massachusetts that Patrick says he wrote this text himself, so I'm not impressed by arguments that they were both parroting some 27 year old speechwriter.

Comments?

February 18, 2008 7:48 PM

jacobt1 said:

Boneill,

Anyone who thinks that Clinon is   a racist or an race baiter is  either a liar or an idiot, but many people do. The case for Clinton’s racism is as bad as a case for Obama’s menstruation-pedogogy

February 18, 2008 8:00 PM

Daniel W. Drezner said:

My latest commentary for Marketplace concerns whether the penny should be abolished. In light of plagiarism accusations running rampant, I should acknowledge that I was "inspired" by a previously published work. Here's how it opens: Four score and nineteen

February 18, 2008 8:09 PM

allante said:

Recently, on this website, Leon Wieseltier pointed out, "After Bush, who is not for a fresh start? But there is something unfresh about Obama's movement for freshness".

I suppose Obama's ongoing recycling of Patrick's speeches is part of what's "unfresh".

Here's a helpful graphic: www.boston.com/.../Patrick_said_Obama_said

February 18, 2008 8:15 PM

bcbaird said:

This whole thing is not news... but that didn't stop the idiots in the media from treating it like news.

As long as the people printing newspapers and producing television news are idiots... well, this sort of crap is going to play pretty well as a campaign tactic.

Kudos Hillary.

February 18, 2008 8:21 PM

jacobt1 said:

Jckasper,

You’re correct, maybe it's too late for this to sink in with the public. TNR and other media outlets will do whatever it takes to prevent the public from knowing the truth.

Marty Peretz  says this openly:

“ Still, Hillary Clinton is the anti-Obama. She will benefit at the polls and at the convention from any criticism that takes Obama down.  he truth is that she is a cynic and no dreams come from cynics. An American dream is an American imperative.”

February 18, 2008 8:22 PM

Eos said:

Who is Obama, really?

Is he: Barry Obama (the name he used in Hawaii)? Is he the new JFK? The new RFK? The succssor to MLK? Is he Duval Patrick? Is he Oprah's marketing flavor of the month?

Is he the One? A pop star? American Idol's candidate for president?

The problem is not that it requires more time to get to know Obama. The problem is that there is no Obama to know. A state legislator with a year in the senate before he began running for president. Lost legislative correspondance and official papers. 130 votes of "present." Six occasions when he later said his vote reflected pushing the wrong button. Deflective answers to questions about Rezko and campaign financing. Lots of smoky rhetoric, with unattributed excerpts from soemone else's speech. So, who the hell is he? What has he ever done?

February 18, 2008 8:30 PM

mpatrickhendri said:

Well, I have to agree with pccostello, Hillary is not without accomplishment. From the train wreck we call health care "reform," to missing documents, to putting her cronies in charge of the White House, to Travel Gate, to the supreme nominations that would have been better picked from a D.C. phone book, to her nauseating support for the bankruptcy bill, and her unwavering support for Bush's authorization to invade Iraq, Hillary is a woman of monumental accomplishments.

I've never voted for a Republican in my life, but if she gets the nomination, I'll have to take a hard look at McCain.

February 18, 2008 8:54 PM

Eos said:

Obama, whose greatest asset is his rhetorical skill, specializes in implicit, coded appeals for statements that he would not be willing to make explicitly:

He "praises" McCain for a "half-century of service" in order to really to say that McCain is an old man.

He says Hillary "periodically" "attacks" when she is "down" in order to portray her as an unstable female.

And, to African-American audiences, he uses the coded language of Malcolm X's descriptions of how whites deceive blacks in order to describe the Clintons, who are among the very strongest proponents of racial justice in this country, as racist exploiters.

On this latter point, see communicativeaction.blogspot.com/.../barak-obama-african-american.html.

See particularly the ninth paragraph, where Mike Plugh writes, "I see Obama using the language of Malcolm X in his speeches in South Carolina. Before a largely African-American audience, Obama used the terms "bamboozled", "hood-winked", and "okie-doke." These terms were made famous by Macolm X on the stump in his days with the Nation of Islam. Obama is attempting to conjure that connection with the South Carolina audience to clue them in to the Clintons' tactics. I guarantee he won't use that lingo in front of whiter audiences because it won't resonate the same way. In this particular example, I watched as a handful of individuals in the background, and two in particular, laughed and rolled their eyes as he invoked the words of Malcolm. They knew the deal.

February 18, 2008 8:58 PM

Eos said:

Almost forgot--

Another of Obama's coded appeals: On a tour of infamously homophobic southern churces, je "just ahppens" to bring along a covertly but unmistakably homophobic country singer. Funny how that guy wasn't on the Obama show when it toured San Francisco or New York. But I'm sure the presence of a "saved-from-gayness-by-religion" gay man on a tour of homophobic churches was just a coincidence, not a coded appeal. Of course not.

February 18, 2008 9:22 PM

mpatrickhendri said:

Coded language? Malcolm X? Is this what the Clinton campaign has been reduced to?

February 18, 2008 9:28 PM

timteeter said:

Let me see if I have this straight.

Obama uses "code" such as "periodically."

But the Clintons would *never* use "code" such as, say, referring to Obama as the Jesse Jackson of our time (i.e., an unserious niche candidate) because they would never stoop to racial code?

Enough.  This is just too laughable.  Or it would be if the subject were not so serious.

February 18, 2008 10:35 PM

timteeter said:

"Bamboozled," by the way, is also the title of a recent book by the African American conservative Republican Angela McGlowan (Google it if your curious).  Maybe Obama got it from her?  No, wait!  It was from Malcolm X!  No, wait, it was . . .

Oh, please.

February 18, 2008 10:59 PM

ironyroad said:

As a college-level English teacher I'm all in favor of maximum penalties for plagiarism, but in this case it seems fairly innocent and the sort of issue that can be solved by a brief and bracing conversation after class or during office hours.  Then the student can move on.

On the other hand, doing a deconstructive lit-crit thing on "periodically" seems to be a little like a waste of significant time.  Not unlike the flap back in the 1990s when the guy in San Francisco had to resign his position with the city because he'd used the word "niggardly" in a radio interview about budgeting matters.

The Bay Area hate-speech patrol wouldn't let go and treated it as if he'd called for the reintroduction of segregated waiting rooms at the bus station.  Somebody claimed in public that there was linguistic evidence for assuming that the Scandinavian origin of "niggardly" (an explanation in defense of the city guy) meant only that the Vikings were racists too.

Nice to know that that's roughly where the Clinton operation is at now.

February 18, 2008 11:00 PM

timteeter said:

And, btw, McCain IS an old man.  You can be sure that whoever is the Democratic nominee will find plenty of ways to make that apparent, with or without "code."

February 18, 2008 11:01 PM

boneill said:

Holy crap on a plate.  Is he: "Barry Obama (the name he used in Hawaii)?"  Is that supposed to be a real example of a disturbing lack of identity and reality by Barack Obama?  He had a nickname when he was a kid?   Is this really where we are?  And can one possibly say that comparing Obama's campaign to Jesse Jackson's was, if not race-baiting (turning white's against him) at the very least using Obama's race to marginalize him as a legitimate candidate?

And please. "He "praises" McCain for a "half-century of service" in order to really to say that McCain is an old man."   McCain is an old man, and he does have a half-century of service.   How on earth is Obama supposed to say that?  "I want to praise John McCain for just finishing his first tour in Iraq, as he is 22".  We are seriously entering the Ag of Kali, here.   Farce and tragedy are intermixing.  

If you want to know Obama take an actual look at his record as (yawn) the President of the Harvard Law Review, community organizer and state legislator.  Then make your decisions as to whether or not he is qualified or decent or whatever.  It is willful blindness to say there is no Obama to know.  Pccostello, honestly- did you read "Dreams From My Father", a deep and insightful and lyrical autobiography, as well as an evocative look at race, identity and memory in America?  Read it.  It wasn't a ghostwriter.  It was the man himself.  Again: I am not saying that his ability as a writer marks him to be President, but it makes it impossible for one to honestly say there is nothing at all behind Barack Obama.  Honestly, do the fucking research.   There are arguments against him; the empty suit is not one of them.  

And, for the record, his skills as a writer are enough to ward off the idea that he is some kind of serial plagarist, especially because he credited Patrick with some lines (none of which were particularly original anyway).    This whole conversation is ridiculous.

February 18, 2008 11:08 PM

boneill said:

jacob, one more thing- please don't lump us all in with Marty Peretz.  I don't know how much you are around here- I only see you on the Hillary/Barack threads- but Marty isn't the most popular guy in the history of TNR.  

February 18, 2008 11:10 PM

boneill said:

jckaspar; you write:

As a Massachusetts resident, I've been deeply dissipointed by the Patrick administration.  I feel we collectively got carried away by the hype during his campaign and now we're paying the consequences with a governer who is having a hard time getting his agenda through because he doesn't have political skills needed.  I think this is one of the big reasons that Clinton did so well in MA btw.  As a lifelong and ardent democrat, I and many of my friends have been speaking openly of the appeal of McCain if Clinton doesn't make the general election.

That is fair.  But I think it is wrong to assume that because X is a good speaker and a bad governor, and Y is a good speaker, he will also make a good leader (I would say you are only saying that because they are both black, but that would only be to get a rise out of jacob, and as the night grows long I am getting too old for that).   Patrick may have shown more glitter than substance, but that doesn't mean everyone shows gold is a phony.    

So give Barack (or Barry, as he sinisterly used to be known)(dammit!) a chance outside of the disappointing Patrick experience.   Maybe you will stil end up not liking him, and that is cool, but hopefully for reasons other than an understandable but still kind of misguided similarity.  

February 18, 2008 11:15 PM

Eos said:

timteete--

the difference is obvious--Clinton is saying very directly that Afrcian-Americans can win in South Carolina and that an Obama victrory there is no big deal. He straight out said it. So what? Obama drags homophobic singers to homophobic churches and then denies his intent. It's a question of direct honesty versus the hypocrisy of implying covertly what is too shameful to actually say. The Obama examples--four of them--that I am citing are of saying something that is shameful in a deniable form--having it both ways, which is what Obama always tries to do. The examples are pretty obvious to the disinterested (see the Mike Plugh blog cited above).

and, btw, giggling is not an argument.

February 18, 2008 11:15 PM

Eos said:

The real question is whether Obama is made up out of the thinness of his record (please boneill--no more about his achievements in school) and the airy emptiness of his mellifluous, cadenced rhetoric.

February 18, 2008 11:19 PM

jckasper said:

Hi boneill,

Your comments are appreciated, and it is true that all I want is a competent qualified leader in office.

In my professional career I work with very well spoken individuals, so I am suspicious when I detect style, and this makes me fear that he has insufficient content and instincts to run a country.  I have seen this play out very recently in MA, and now I think I'm seeing the same process at hand again, but combined with a very unusual cult of personality sweep.  I'm turning to this discussion group in part because I've found it very difficult to conduct a serious political discussion with Obama's supporters here.  I'm not looking for someone to make me feel better about myself!

February 18, 2008 11:56 PM

timteeter said:

pccostelloe,

No, giggling is not an argument.  It is, however, an indication of just how seriously I take "arguments" concerning the use of "Barry" or "periodically" or "bamboozled" or "old man McCain."  Every one of these smacks of a desperation that is indeed laughable.

Obama has a long list of legislative accomplishments.  They are not hard to find.  Start with his work on capital punishment and police interrogation while in the Illinois legislature, then move on perhaps to ethics legislation in the US Senate.  That's for starters.  On the other hand, Hillary Clinton's list of actual authored legislation is, well, thin, consisting largely of sympbolic measures and earmarks to bring the pork home to NY.  Her actual votes--some of which are mentioned in the comments above--are also not something to brag about.

In addition, since Mrs. Clinton insists on naming her "35 years" of experience, this must include:

The HillaryCare fiasco.

Her recommendations of, successively, Zoe Baird, Kimba Wood, and finally Janet Reno for Attorney General.

Her recommendation of Lani Guanier for head of the Civil Rights  Commission.

Her recommendation of Web Hubbell, later imprisoned, for a position in the Justice Department.

The mass firings of the White House Travel Office to accommodate the Thomasons.

The details of these and other disasters could be filled out extensively, but it would be unpleasant.

In fact, just what, as First Lady (remember "buy one, get one free"?) is positively associated with Hillary?  The handling of "bimbo eruptions"?

I know nothing about "homphobic country western singers."  I'll look into it.  But visiting conservative churches in search of votes is hardly a uniquely Obama phenomenon.

February 19, 2008 9:14 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

This thread is depressing and shows how demolished our party is going to be at the end of this.

February 19, 2008 9:49 AM

blackton said:

President McCain....President John McCain...President John McCain of Arizona....sorry, just getting used to it. I must say I am impressed by the McCain operation to hire people like pccostello, people who will launch the most nonsensical arguments to fire up our absolute hatred of Hillary so that we would never vote for her. I am sure there is a pccostello type on some pro-Hillary website (are there any left?) saying nonsensical things about Obama to anger the Hillary supporters to never vote for him (actually, pccostello probably types the same things)

Brilliant move by McCain since the Democrats have no chance in hell of winning now.

February 19, 2008 10:58 AM

The Plank said:

Guest poster Adam Leon, co-proprietor of the popular Philly/NYC music blog BadmintonStamps , offers his

February 19, 2008 11:28 AM

tomeg said:

kcfoster writes:

"In my professional career I work with very well spoken individuals, so I am suspicious when I detect style, and this makes me fear that he has insufficient content and instincts to run a country.  I have seen this play out very recently in MA, and now <ital>I think I'm seeing the same process at hand again, but combined with a very unusual cult of personality sweep.<endital>  I'm turning to this discussion group in part because I've found it very difficult to conduct a serious political discussion with Obama's supporters here.  I'm not looking for someone to make me feel better about myself!"

Welcome to the wild bunch! (I mean that genuinely, with a touch of attempted humor.) I appreciate your concerns. I have a number of reservations about Obama, including whether he may really be up to the job. It is frustrating to see the natural idealism and hero worship in many of Obama's enthusiasts; young ones in particular, who maybe oversold with themselves, lacking yet the disappointments and failures that go with maturation.

Well enough, but your invoking the phrase *cult of personality sweep* to characterize the flush of zeal is itself going too far in the direction of emotionality charged exaggeration. Of course, the frequently near hysterical obsession of cable news pundits with lose coded language, turning it over and over until it addles their minds at the same time as unhinging their mouths, and "cult" in this case takes on a mind life of its. Even such experienced reporters as Andrea Mitchell are susceptible (for the record I don't mean to suggest nor imply nor tacitly associate Mitchell with the code word hysterical, so can it, please - sometimes a word is just a word, ok? get it?).

Was RFK.'s legion of adulators a cult? Eugene McCarthy's? Jimmy Carter's? Ross Perot's? Or are you seriously arguing that Obama has virtually no experience? Zero thoughtfulness? Utter lack of experience? Is he a total fraud? A huckster? A Kool-Aid distributor in disguise?

Obviously you didn't come here to debate such questions? Frustrated, bemused, bewildered, up to your eyeballs with Obama talk? Join the club. Warning, however: Beware the Marty Peretz cult, they're truly  a wild bunch.

February 19, 2008 1:03 PM

Gavriel Meir-Levi said:

"'It raises questions about the premise of his candidacy,' Wolfson told reporters in a conference call."

I think the behavior of the Clinton Campaign this past week raises questions about the premise of Hillary's candidacy, namely that she is a candidate of substance.  Her campaign simply hasn't been one of substance.  Maybe she just isn't a candidate of substance.

Candidates of substance do not stoop to Republican-Noise-Machine-Style nonsense attacks.  Candidates of substance do not hold up boxing gloves.  Candidates of substance do not withhold their tax returns from the voting public.  Candidates of substance do not post negative ads about debate challenges while they aren't even in the state.

These don't sound like "solutions" to me - more like part of the problem, which I should point out is a paraphrasing of a line from the movie Die Hard, which was in turn drawing from Black Panther Leader and Presidential Candidate (Peace & Freedom Party) Eldridge Cleaver who said “You're either part of the solution or part of the problem.”

February 19, 2008 1:28 PM

tomeg said:

jckasper NOT "kcfoster" writes:

(see above)

sorry. i had to check and scroll repeatedly to get it right, some kind of short term memory block. *sigh*

February 19, 2008 1:50 PM

tomeg said:

an embarrassed tomeg corrects and tries to edit himself:

"Well enough, but your invoking the phrase *cult of personality sweep* to characterize that flush of zeal is itself going too far in the direction of exaggeration. Of course, the frequently near-hysterical obsession of cable news pundits with loose, coded language, turning it over until it addles their minds and unhinges their mouths. "Cult" thus acquires a life of its own. Even such experienced reporters as Andrea Mitchell are susceptible (for the record I don't mean to suggest nor imply nor tacitly associate Mitchell with the code word hysterical, so can it, please - sometimes a word is just a word, ok? get it?)."

please also understand that the last sentence in the paragraph is not intended for you, but a couple of other posters whom I expect will recognize themselves.

(Talk about addled minds. I think I'm done for today.)

February 19, 2008 2:18 PM