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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
15.02.2008
The Flaw in Clinton's Florida-Michigan Strategy

I see the Clinton campaign is still pressing to seat delegates from the Michigan and Florida primaries. What I fail to see is why.

Like most people, I find the effort objectionable on philosophical grounds – particularly in Michigan, where Clinton's name was the only one on the ballot. The Clinton campaign says that it is merely trying to respect the rights of Michigan residents who went to the polls that day. Well, I happen to be one of those people. And I find the argument unpersuasive.

But put that aside. It's the sheer practicality of this effort that baffles me at the moment.

As I understand it, in order to seat the two delegations at the convention in Denver, Clinton would have to win support first of the so-called Credentials Committee (whose members are assigned based on the results in the primaries and cacuses) and then the full convention, in each case by majority vote. In both cases, Clinton would have to obtain the approval of people who are pledged to support other candidates – in most cases, Barack Obama. That seems unlikely, too.

But there is another option, which TNR recently endorsed. Holding caucuses in Florida and Michigan, then having those contests – rather than the flawed primaries – determine the delegate allocation for those states. The Democratic National Committee has indicated it would honor such results – and even provide some money to the state parties if they agree to hold them. If the respective state parties would agree to hold them, new votes could go forward.

The risk for Clinton, naturally, is that this time she might not win Florida and Michigan – at least not by sufficiently large margins to make up whatever gap ultimately exists between her and Barack Obama.  But her chances of success certainly seem better than her chances of seating the delegates based on the current results.

After all, both states seem relatively friendly to her candidacy. Michigan, with the nation's highest unemployment rate, is singularly focused on the economy, suggesting its voters might be particularly amenable to her bread-and-butter focus. Florida has a large Latino population – and, so far, they still seem to favor her. (We'll see if the endorsement by the Service Employees International Union, with its large Latino membership, makes a difference there.)

And if Clinton could win both states, the symbolism would be incredibly powerful. Assuming she had won Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania along the way – if she didn't, presumably, then this whole conversation is moot because Obama would have won the nomination with or without Florida/Michigan – she could claim, legitimately, that she had all but swept the biggest states, including the two (Florida and Ohio) that decided the last two presidential elections.

Don't forget, too, that Florida and Michigan have huge populations. There might be enough votes there to close the popular vote gap.

Those arguments might be enough to win over a lot of the super-delegates – those unpledged delegates who, in many cases, will vote for whichever candidate they believe has the best chance of winning in November.  And that, ultimately, is what Clinton must do to win the nomination.

I have no idea how Obama's camp would respond to this; I haven't seen them comment on the possibility of new votes in Florida and Michigan. It's possible, if the nomination seems within reach but not certain, they might oppose such a move. But if they did that, then Obama – and not Clinton – would be the one making the more craven argument.

That's because, notwithstanding Clinton's transparent calculations, a serious injustice really has been done. Voters in two of the largest states – key swing states both of them – are not getting a say in the Democratic nomination for forces completely out of their control. It's particularly egregious in Florida, where – unlike in Michigan – it was a Republican-controlled state legislature that made this happen. Holding new votes would give voters in these states a chance to have their say, as they deserve.

(Confession of bias: While I vote in Michigan, my parents and most of my extended family vote in Florida, where I grew up. In other words, I have a larger-than-usual personal interest in this.)

So it seems to me that Clinton has an opportunity to reoccupy the moral high ground, enfranchise voters in two electorally vital states, all while improving her candidacy. All she has to do is abandon the call for honoring the flawed primaries.

Or am I missing something?  (Readers, feel free to chime in.)

UPDATE: Ask and ye shall receive. Reader mcv2004 informs me that Obama -- to his credit -- has already indicated he would support holding new votes: According to this CNN.com article, he said "If there's a way of organizing something in those states where both Sen. Clinton and I can compete and we have enough time to make our case before the voters there, then that would be fine." 

UPDATE 2: Also, several readers (and colleagues) have reminded me that senior senators from both states -- Carl Levin in Michigan and Bill Nelson in Florida -- have indicated they're against holding new votes. I should have mentioned that originally. I plan to talk about that later on, in a future post. For now, suffice to say that I think they're just plain wrong about this.

--Jonathan Cohn

Posted: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:01 PM with 107 comment(s)

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anonevent said:

I doubt Obama would oppose having caucuses at some point in those states because:  1) They are caucuses, where he's faired better than her, and 2) she couldn't make up any will distance on him anyway.

February 15, 2008 3:36 PM

Eos said:

Both Carl Levin and Ben Nelson are absolutely opposed to not seating their state's delegations. They say it would be throwing away the votes of millions of people who actually went to the polls, and would be anti-democratic. Both agree that caucuses would be a very undemocratic substittue for a primary. When Levin was asked about Obama's taking his name off the ballot in Michigan, Levin said that he regretted that Obama had done that. In other words, them's the breaks. Lots of people voted uncommitted, and many of them were for Edwards, not Obama.

You can't undo or redo an election because you don't like the results of the election has on who wins.

February 15, 2008 3:41 PM

xurichd said:

You make good points. However, if I were Clinton, I'd hold off until after the Texas/Ohio results before pushing for new elections in the states. It would be real awkward for her to call for new elections, win Texas/Ohio, and then lose MI/FL in the summer to Obama. I think Team Clinton must realize by now that Obama has an extraordinary advantage in the long run. Their current position allows them to maintain a 'holding pattern' of sorts (by laying the groundwork for the option that requires the most and longest period of justification) until they can figure out which option is appropriate.

February 15, 2008 3:44 PM

seanwright said:

Your personal connection to the situation actually makes your opinion on this more, not less, relevant.  I agree with you 100%.  I'm an Obama supporter (to disclose my bias) and I think that seating the delegates based upon these phony primaries would be unjust not just to Obama, but to his supporters in Michigan, FL and all across the country.  However, if the States were to agree to new caucuses and Obama were to oppose that, I would agree that that is a craven move.  I don't think he'd go there, but I could see the temptation.

February 15, 2008 3:47 PM

KeenSally said:

Might it be the call for caucuses, instead of do-over primaries, that is stopping Clinton for endorsing this proposal? We know how she has fared in caucus states up to this point.

February 15, 2008 3:47 PM

lymon1 said:

Agree on everything except the caucus part -- it should be a vote, I don't care if it costs more.  First, both states had primaries, not caucuses.  Second, caucuses are undemocratic -- I don't think it's as much a Bradley-effect people ashamed to vote against an African-American is that people are ashamed to vote admit they are voting for Clinton.  Regardless, the secret ballot is important, and it's not like Obama can't win a primary -- he's won numerous ones already.    

February 15, 2008 3:47 PM

miceelf said:

Poor PCCostello, TNR talkback's own Baghdad Bob. It wasn't an election. The voters were told it wouldn't count. The candidates (ALL of them) said it wouldn't count. It was more like a straw poll.

Many people stayed home because they actually beleived Clinton when she said it wouldn't count.

February 15, 2008 3:49 PM

lymon1 said:

pc -- the problem is that for one of them (I think Michigan), Hillary gave the excuse for not taking her name off the ballot  that "they aren't goiong to count anyway."  The other candidates were entitled to rely on that.  As to the senators' comments, I don't see the logic as to the other primaries because those voters knew that as-to the Presidential race their votes wouldn't count (or at least that there was a big likelihood they don't count).  I agree though that the states should have the right to pick primary over caucus (besides the reasons I gave above, caucuses make it hard for some working people to attend, and there's no absentee vote).  

February 15, 2008 3:52 PM

AaronBBrown said:

Florida and Michigan screwed themselves, and if the people in those states don't like it they need to take it up with their legislature. I know the Florida legislature intimately and they're a band of idiot buffoons.

The DNC made their ruling, and that ruling was upheld by a Supreme Court decision.  That's it, Florida and Michigan delegates will not count in this race, they'll have to wait until after a candidate is chosen before they are seated. If the DNC allows anything else, then they undermined their own authority, and states will begin running their primaries for the 2012 election in 2010.  :-)

It certainly isn't fair to let Florida count, because Obama the unknown, didn't have a chance to campaign there.  He would have had very little chance of winning Florida that early in the race even if he had, because the Democratic establishment is so strong in South Florida where all the Democratic votes are, but I'm sure it would have been a much closer race if he had spent significant time in Florida, and Obama would've gotten a pretty even delegates split I'm sure.  So of course the Clintons don't want to redo Florida because they'll come out on the losing end.  Same goes for Michigan, Clinton might still win, but the delegates split would be pretty even basically leading to a huge expenditure for both campaigns and the Democrats, and nothing would change.

The rules are the rules, you can't alter them once the game has started, Florida and Michigan are out, and if Clinton wants to try and force those delegates to be counted, then let her do so and she will lose.  I wonder what length Mrs. Clinton will go to in her quest for power.  It's good though because with each of these ugly poorly thought out tactical maneuvers, we are getting to see who Hillary Clinton is and what she stands for, cheating, lying, manipulating, win by any means fair or unfair.  All that matters is the prize, the coveted prize, which as we've all come to learn, is her rightful due.  How dare we the American people stand it her way.  I have no doubt that once she's an office we will all be severely punished.

February 15, 2008 3:52 PM

KeenSally said:

"You can't undo or redo an election because you don't like the results of the election has on who wins."

pccostello:

Why would it be unfair to hold new caucuses/primaries, but fair to allow the Florida and Ohio delegations to be seated after all the candidates agreed to neither count nor campaign in these states?

February 15, 2008 3:52 PM

gbittner said:

The caditate (Obama or Clinton) who seizes the high ground to advocate "doing the right thing" will be rewarded by national good will and (eventually)in delegate votes..  The best way to do the right thing, as Cohn points out,is NOT to accept the reselts when  major candidates are removed from the ballot or are barred from campaigning. [Are we talking about the US or Pakistan/Russia/]. The right thing, as others have also pointed out, is a "mulligan" do over.  Such a do over is especially important if the popular vote and/or delegates of Florida and Michigan are important to a final convention outcome.  IHowever, if the votes/delegates are NOT important to the convention outcome becauseObama or Clinton is the obvious winner, no matter what, then a decision to seat a close-to-50/50  Obama/Clinton split delegation from each state might satisfy all parties.

February 15, 2008 3:57 PM

xurichd said:

Uhh... I don't know if it's pccostello's position but, I at least disagree with Levin's reasoning. First important point: it's not very democratic right now. Just because there was an election and people voted, doesn't make it fair (or right). Pretend this happened in Russia or something, people would be laughing derisively at 'KGB democracy' or something to that effect. And you can definitely redo or undo an election when the results are horrifying.

One additional point: I really think Hillary could lose Michigan despite what he demographics suggest. Anecdotally, I detect a lot of unbridled enthusiasm that'll be converted into rabid campaigning if there is a real election here.

February 15, 2008 4:02 PM

CRS9TNR said:

You can't redo an election.  Clinton could just boycott them and she would have the moral high ground.  And she will boycott if she doesn't see an overwhelming win in the polls.  So then Obama has a contested win.  What has that accomplished.

My prediction is DNC will lower the threshold by taking out the MI & FLA Delegates.  So the close election can be determined and the rougue states won't hold the nation hostage any longer.

While the Democrats may have a woman and African American on the top of their ticket, they are discriminating against Peninsulas.  They deny Michigan and Florida voters and only give Alaska 3 electoral votes.  Free the Penisulas from the unfairness of the DNC.

February 15, 2008 4:07 PM

lymon1 said:

Aaron:  in that case can we judge that the GOP is a more democratic party than the Dems since they allowed 50% of the delagates and didn't *completely disenfranchise* those voters?  The point isn't that these states were right, but that the DNC is wrong because it now has the power to find *some* way to give those voters at least *some* voice.  And what if those voters, seeing the DNC could have empowered them but didn't compared to the GOP, turned their backs on the Dems.  Michigan is not a Dem gimme and we all know about Florida.  Now, I doubt that many voters would do this, but McCain isn't as anathema an option.

February 15, 2008 4:07 PM

Hungarian Great Bela Tarr said:

Wait -- "the flaw in Clinton's Florida-Michigan strategy" isn't that it's unethical, dishonest, and will cleave the Democratic coalition in half?

I enjoyed this post, but Jonathan Cohn is a fantasist if he thinks Clinton has a chance to "reoccupy the high ground."

That's not how it works. You don't get to cheat, and then, when playing fair comes to seem like a more advantageous strategy, start playing fair, and thereby "reoccupy the high ground." The phrase "high ground" implies a commitment to fair play, whatever the disadvantage.

Hillary Clinton is a crook, whether or not she abandons this bizarre plan to steal the Democratic nomination.

This is speculative, of course -- and others are free to disagree -- but I don't believe that Obama would have made this play for stolen delegates if the candidates' positions were reversed.

February 15, 2008 4:08 PM

jmandell said:

are you kidding, pccostello? with all due respect, who gives a shit what nelson and levin say on this subject?

the dnc set clear rules with clear consequences, and florida and michigan chose to violate those rules. enforcing the consequences would be bad for the party and potentially influential in selecting the nominee; ditto for waiving the consequences entirely and recognizing the results of votes that were only partially contested. so the question is how best to proceed. the intransigence of nelson and levin is pointless and counterproductive. they should have been equally stolid in telling their state parties not to trigger this whole mess to start with. (i don't agree with the dnc's rules, but i recognize that the dnc gets to set the rules and that once the rules are set they have to be enforced equally.) so the only thing left to do is to figure out how we move forward. no solution will be perfect, but we have to find one that's at least reasonably fair. in this debate levin and nelson have placed numerous interests of their own before fairness , so their opinions really have little to add substantively.

February 15, 2008 4:10 PM

sdemuth said:

On the caucus vs primary question for FL and MI: can they hold primaries, without an act from their legistlatures?  I suspect, although I am not certain, that the Democratic party in each state could decide to hold caucuses, get approval from the DNC, and go ahead without state involvement, but I'd be surprised if they could do a primary without changing state law.

This could be particularly problematic in FL, where the legistlature is Republican controlled.

February 15, 2008 4:16 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

What Aaron said. Talk about tough beans - screw Carl Levin, he's got the personal responsibility part exactly backwards.  He should have stood up when all this was happening and his state chose to ignore the rules.  Either you're responsible for your behavior or you or not.

What part of: either you follow the rules agreed upon by all candidates from the beginning, or you're transparent cheater with zero consideration for anything but your own ambition - does Hillary not understand?

Sound familiar?  She's a walking Hillary stereotype with this one.  As if she cares one WHIT about disenfranchized voters, barf!  If this was South Carolina, I wonder if she'd be so tremulous about those poor disenfranchized hoardes of The People.  Give me a break - I'd respect her so much more if she just said, "hey I want to win and I don't care how," but I have no evidence that she is capable of that level of honesty.  

If Hillary thinks people hate her now, just wait until she fully unfurls this load of crap.  The best thing would be for her to push, somehow get tax payers to pay for new primaries to resuce her ambition in life and lose anyway - which is exactly what she would deserve.

February 15, 2008 4:18 PM

hrlngrv said:

Weren't the people in MI and FL told their states had been stripped of their delegates? So the ones that voted in their primaries would have as much reason to expect their votes to lead to pledged delegates as the people in WA who are having a nonbinding primary tomorrow after their binding caucuses last Saturday.

What's the difference, other than wanting to give lots more delegates to Clinton?

I'm sympathetic about giving the people of MI and FL a say in the nomination but not letting the January polls count for anything.

February 15, 2008 4:27 PM

williamyard said:

I agree with Aaron Brown. They had their chance, and they blew it.

No do-over in either state would be fair to the other states, who played by the rules and, in many cases, lost importance in the schedule as a result.

Undemocratic? What's democratic about a system in which Iowa is more important than New York? You want democracy? Invalidate the Iowa caucuses, force them to hold an election, and bury it between North Dakota's and South Overcoat's.

At this late date the Democratic party can't be democratic, but that doesn't mean it can't be fair. And if it isn't, there should be hell to pay.

February 15, 2008 4:35 PM

jmkerr said:

Ha, ha. Caucuses. Right. Gosh, I wonder why you want a caucus?  They could revote in a primary, and the DNC can cover the costs.

But that's not going to happen. The states have already refused that option. If Hillary wins Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, you can pretty much assume that the Dems will allow Michigan and Florida to count.

Some people confuse the trappings of an election with an actual election. The people of Florida voted. Whether or not the candidates campaigned there is irrelevant. They voted. Both candidates were on the ballot. Hillary wiped him out.

Michigan might be a bit more problematic, but can be solved by giving Obama some half of the uncommitted votes. It was, after all, his choice.

It has always been the credential committee's call. And if Obama controls the committee to keep *out* Florida and Michigan, his win would be very dirty indeed. That suggests that a broker will make the call.

Anyone who thinks that the Dems are going to ignore Florida and Michigan voters if every other large state votes for Hillary, too, in favor of a guy who lost Florida, Michigan, California, New York, New Jersey, Arkansas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and (presumably) Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, enjoy your buzz.

February 15, 2008 4:42 PM

lymon1 said:

Why are people here so convinced that Hillary Clinton would win Florida and Michigan?  Especially Michigan -- she barely defeated "uncommitted" and the state has a large African-American population, I don't think it's Latino population is all that big, and dare I say that the state's large Arab population might favor Obama simply because they figure he's going to have some empathy for them (father, childhood overseas, etc.)?  

And some of you are misreading Jonathan -- he's not saying Hillary Clinton cares about enfranchisement.  If Hillary said the sun rises in the east, it doesn't mean it rises in the west!

February 15, 2008 4:44 PM

mcv2004 said:

Obama has already come out in support of the position you describe, Jon:

"If there's a way of organizing something in those states where both Sen. Clinton and I can compete and we have enough time to make our case before the voters there, then that would be fine," Obama has said.

www.cnn.com/.../michigan.florida.voters

(Feel free to post an update clarifying this...)

February 15, 2008 5:01 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Whether the candidates campaigned or not is irrelevant?  Since when? Why bother campaigning anywhere? Just vote on the polls and short circuit the whole process?

jmkerr- I'm sure you wouldn't mind if we just changed all  the rules right now as a matter of fact - why not?  It might benefit Hillary and that's clearly all that matters.  I propose that we move the general election date to my birthday. It's in June, better weather, etc. Thanks, I knew you wouldn't mind.  

I should have figured that "agreements" or "rules" - those sorts of silly things -  wouldn't mean very much in Hillaryland, not unless they favor her.  

I can't imagine why any world leader watching would take her remotely seriously if she somehow pulled this off.  Another President who wouldn't know the truth if it him them in the face - I'm sure they are all thrilled.

"If Hillary wins Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, you can pretty much assume that the Dems will allow Michigan and Florida to count."  

I assume no such thing - there would be riots in the streets and rightly so.  If her narcissim takes her that far, then all bets are off - I'm sure McCain would destroy her. I know I wouldn't vote for her (and I would have if she won without lowering herself cheating) and I'm certainly not alone.

Does her selfishness HAVE a bottom?

February 15, 2008 5:11 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Hillary, I'd like to introduce you to the concept of a class act:

""If there's a way of organizing something in those states where both Sen. Clinton and I can compete and we have enough time to make our case before the voters there, then that would be fine," Obama has said."

I look forward to her getting beaten as badly as she deserves to.

February 15, 2008 5:13 PM

peter1943 said:

Hey, as long as 'the rules are the rules' does this mean the Obama campaign will stop trying to depict the superdelegates as illegitimate? Because, tough beans, the rules are the rules.

February 15, 2008 5:16 PM

liebig said:

For once, I agree with pccostello:  You can't redo an election because you don't like the results.  The results in Florida: 0 delegates for Clinton, 0 delegates for Obama.  I'm glad that pccostello agrees that you can't change the rules after the fact.

February 15, 2008 5:36 PM

blackton said:

jmkerr, big if saying Hillary will sweep the remaining big states.

I will tell you what, if Hillary tries to seat them without a revote then all hell will break out in the convention center. personally, I don't care that much since I would be perfectly happy with a McCain Presidency, but Hillary is on the way to destroying the Democratic party this cycle. The rules are the rules, the DNC has the final say, Hillary can always run as an independent if she doesn't like the Democratic parties rules. After all it is her choice to do so, but since she is running as a Democrat she has to accept the rules of the party. Them is the breaks. You are confusing the process of a political party choosing a candidate with Democracy, it is not. If the National party says the votes don't count, they don't count. There is nothing you can do about it except start your own party, or if you don't like it you can always vote for McCain (please do and make me happy)

Enjoy those voices going on in your head that say you are making sense. They just aren't.

February 15, 2008 5:38 PM

liebig said:

peter1943:  Please cite some evidence for your allegation that the Obama campaign is depicting the superdelegates as illegitimate.

P.S.  You can't.

February 15, 2008 5:39 PM

liebig said:

jmkerr:  Make the argument directly.  Why is it fair to change the rules after the election?

February 15, 2008 5:43 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

what do you mean peter1943?  I'm not being sarcastic, I just hadn't heard anyone saying they were illegitimate.  Do you have a link?

I did hear of people suggesting superdelegates should vote for the candidate that their state votes for, I think that was John Lewis's logic - but no one can *make* them do anything they don't want to thrugh some sort of process - that would be changing the rules and would be totally unacceptable. They should be able to make up their minds as they see fit, justy as the system was originally designed prior to going in to this.  If the rules say thy can change their minds, then so be it - if not, they should NOT be allowed to!

No changing the rules midstream to game the system and cheat!  Come ON!

February 15, 2008 5:43 PM

fougasseu said:

There's something that's a much bigger problem than a flaw in strategy - it's a fundamental flaw in presentation.

Thomas De Zengotita captures this in his book "Mediated". We now have a presentation culture. People under 40 are conditioned to seeing well-prepared, sensation-oriented, polished presentations - just about everywhere. Diana's funeral is a good example. Howard Dean understood this...the people are part of the experience, the movement and the moment are one.

Obama gets it, he encounters large crowds who are expectant, he embraces them, and he delivers. The wonky Town Hall doesn't work that way - I guess everyone now is catching on to that. "Getting the message out" takes more skill as the public gets more "presentation-sophisticated". I invited an author to a large gathering two years ago who had written a great book, who came from a university setting. He was a disaster. He never had to work to hold anyone's attention. The crowd, fairly young, was bored and inattentive. It's the message, but it's also the presentation.

February 15, 2008 5:57 PM

blackton said:

perer, who is saying superdelegates are illegitimate? all Obama is doing is positioning to win the most of them by using argument and persuasion. As is Clinton. He isn't trying to strip them of their power. He accepts the rules that SD's are free to choose whom they want. Hillary wants to strip the DNC of its power. Really, what the hell are you talking about?

I actually feel sorry for the Clintonistas. How can you convince people a plate of shit is a ham sandwich and expect them to eat it?

February 15, 2008 5:57 PM

psantillana said:

blackton, the Clintonistas have been wolfing down the shit and pretending it's ham for months. If they can do that to themselves, how surprising is it that they are offering it to the rest of us? They're going to lose, and when they do, they're going to call it sexism. Or they're going to call Obama a Nazi with powers of mind-control. Just wait. People that far gone are beyond your pity, because they already live in a magical world of their own creation. And that people still bother to respond to their crazy "arguments" is a touching testament to the power of hope. Also, my heart is warmed by seeing Wandrey now as mad as I've been. Yay!

As for Cohn's post, I agree with everything in it, except his felt need to explain why H might win the two states in a legitimate contest. So why would she be against that? Well, an illegitimate bird in the hand is worth two legitimate birds in the bush to someone who obviously doesn't give a rat's ass about legitimacy, and that's a pretty big "might" in the "might win"- yes Clinton does well with those demographics, etc. but history has shown that when Obama has a chance to show people who he is and what he's about, the numbers change his way. The absolute best demographic for Clinton is the group called "uninformed voters".

February 15, 2008 6:36 PM

peter1943 said:

Well, I must be living in a parallel universe where my inbox is filled with emails from everyone from Moveon.org,  and Ari Emanuel blog posts decrying how the superdelegates threaten to subvert the process if they don't follow the popular vote. (Please don't even make the argument this is going on without the tacit support of the Obama campaign).

This is my problem with the Obama campaign: they're running a smart, edgy campaign, but they're still running a campaign. They press the advantages they have. It was all about the delegates when he trailed in the popular vote, now that he's ahead, it's all about the popular vote. Obama's approach was 'I'll debate anytime, anywhere,' but now that he's ahead in Wisconsin there's no time for a debate. Again, it's astute politics, that's what frontrunners do, but it's politics. I give him credit, he may even be a great president, but this suggestion he's running a movement while Hillary is the political equivalent of a mobster, is just so tired and childish.

February 15, 2008 6:42 PM

BHLnyc said:

Add me to the list of those agreeing with AaronBrown. The vote was not legitimatized by the DNC, which sets the rules. The states had the opportunity to work within the guidelines set forth by the party's controlling authorities. They did not. As pccostello would say, them's the breaks.

February 15, 2008 7:01 PM

yukon said:

This idea is totally wrong and unfair.  How in the heck is it "fair" to allow Hillary to keep changing the rules in the middle of the game.  "If I were ahead, then the rules should stay the same. But because I'm behind, we should have caucuses in Michigan and Florida.  Heads I win, tails we flip again."

BS!  Follow the rules that were in place before we knew the outcome of the elections.  There are all sorts of "fair" changes, like going from proportional allocation to winner-take-all.  But they are necessarily unfair when performed in the middle of the game with the intention of changing the result.

February 15, 2008 7:02 PM

blackton said:

peter, good points generally, of course it is good politics. The Democrats want good politicians. The sad thing is that Hillary is being a bad one. I actually used to like her, and thought her election would be a feel good poke in the eye to asshole Bush Republicans, but she has been running a terrible campaign (mostly). I loved her on Letterman and that recent debate with Obama. I wouldn't blame it all on her, but instead on her campaign staff like that pussbag Mark Penn. Why they didn't just drive a dump truck full of money up to Joe Trippi is beyond me. But this Florida Michigan debacle is beyond the pale. If she had pushed to reschedule them directly after supertuesday she could have about wrapped it up by now. That is just bad politics from a supposed master politician.

Look at it this way, if you told me in 2004 that a black man with the bizarre name of Barack Hussein Obama (rhymes with Osama of all the freaking names to rhyme with) would be on the verge of overthrowing the Clinton dynasty I would have said you were nuts. That he has done so with high favorables throughout the country still unscathed is remarkable. What are his negatives? He is inspirational but lacks substance. Doesn't poll well among Hispanics (perhaps will carry over to general against amnesty McCain)

Then look at Hillary's: ruthless, say anything do anything to win, unfavorables above 50%, tons of scandals in the past, rallies the Republican base.

Honestly, I am not so sold on Obama as I am sold against Clinton. How do you get the math to add up? How does Hillary cobble together enough states to win the electoral college?

February 15, 2008 7:10 PM

psantillana said:

Actually, fougasseau, I don't know about your academic dud guy, but I think Obama's stint as a professor had to have helped his presentation skills enormously. Profs have to hold people's attention continually and repeatedly. The best ones are always masters at presentation, and communicating legal theory in an interesting way is terrific practice for what Obama's doing now. In a town hall or in an auditiorium. Another thing good law profs do is see every side to the issue and get their students to care about these sides and raise them and defend them in class, ideally to each other, with the prof stepping in as needed.

February 15, 2008 7:14 PM

jmkerr said:

"jmkerr, big if saying Hillary will sweep the remaining big states. "

Not that big an if,but an absolutely critical one, I agree.

It's not "changing the rules". The credentials committee can accept any delegation they like. So there's no rule change involved. There's no requirement that the credentials committee follow the dictate of the DNC.

Moreover, it's quite clear that the DNC had every intention of accepting the Florida and Michigan delegates. If they hadn't, they would have reduced the number of delegates required to put a candidate over the top. They didn't, because they never thought the vote would be contested and come down to a delegate count. So now, because it *does* matter, they change their mind and decide not to count the delegates? Nonsense.

Reducing the count needed is every bit as much "changing the rules" as it would be to allow Michigan and Florida.  If the Dems don't accept Michigan and Florida and don't reduce the count, they are giving *more* power to the superdelegates, diluting the overall value of the states' votes in favor of the party elites.

Which brings up another interesting point. If the leaders refuse to allow Michigan and Florida to be seated, they will be giving themselves *more* say in the choice of the President than they would if Michigan and Florida were seated. They are denying the people their say in order to give their own votes more weight.

Oh, that will go over big.

So they can't have it both ways. THey can't argue that every vote counts, and then give more power than they intended to the super delegates. They can't say that they need to respect the "will of the people" and disenfranchise two huge states (and it's nonsense to say that Hillary "barely" beat Uncommitted, by the way) in order to give themselves more power.

Well, of course, they *can* do that.But it would be stupid. They could, of course, be stupid. But I bet they are all hoping madly that Obama wins T,O,P and saves them from themselves. That may be why all the elites are getting on his bandwagon, hoping madlythey can build up momentum and convince whites, Hispanics, and Democrats to start voting for him.

February 15, 2008 7:16 PM

peter1943 said:

Blackton, all good points and I appreciate the civility of your argument. I don't think HRC is going to win, so how she cobbles together a general election coalition may be moot.  The only thing I'd say is November is nine months away and who knows how this all plays out. (9 months ago, Rudy was a lock, McCain had not died and come back and Obama, seemingly, had little chance).

I sorta feel if a dead puppy was nominated by the Dems they'd beat McCain because of his hundred years war stance and the past eight years of awfulness etc..Then again, I never saw the Kerry swiftboating coming.

Cheers.

February 15, 2008 7:39 PM

jwred18 said:

you call them "flawed" primaries, but that is nonsense. i have not heard anyone challenging that the votes were not counted properly, or any kind of voter fraud whatsoever. a re-vote? perhaps if there was something indicating that the votes did not reflect the votes cast. there is no "flaw" here, except that the DNC is refusing to count the votes of over a million people based on a legal technicality. it's insane. let's make no mistake, there were no flaws with the primaries....only the date they were held did not make the DNC happy.  but a re-vote??? now that the circumstances have changed- how can any grown up argue for such a thing.  what are you, 11? and in the spirit of full disclosure you should know i voted for Obama.  so try to attack my reasoning if you can, but not my bias, which is evident in your commentary.

February 15, 2008 7:56 PM

blackton said:

jmkerr. then why not revote as a closed primary? What is she or Obama afraid of? We have elections all the time. If Clinton can't win now how can she say she will win in November, the same with Obama. As I indicate I am even in favor of a situation most beneficial to Clinton in a closed primary. I would much rather she win above board (or he if it comes to it), then either win by chicanery.

February 15, 2008 8:04 PM

blackton said:

peter, good points are good points, even if they come from a Clinton supporter ( -; As Governor Rendell pointed out I just don't see why she hasn't contested in some of these states. How can anyone lose by 60% in Idaho unless your name is Mike Gravel.

jwred18, states have straw polls as well, should we retroactively count all of them as well? why not, all of the votes were counted properly. Again, you are confusing an election with a nomination. What the DNC says goes or there is essentially no need for any party rules at all. kerr makes a good point that the credential committee can override the DNC and seat the delegates, but based on the rules as well it is an impossibility since the credential committee is composed of an equal number of Obama people. It would just be empty and divisive theater. Do we want 1968 or 1972 again?

Just freaking revote already. Let the delegates go in through the front door. What is so hard about that?

February 15, 2008 8:17 PM

ChanRobt said:

As always, the Clintons are shameless, amoral.  And, ultimately, self-defeating.

Which is the best part of the joke.

February 15, 2008 8:49 PM

ChanRobt said:

blackie, the Clintons aren't going to want a re-vote because it will tend to favor Obama whose clear momentum (not so clear during the first vote) will likely attract the majority.

February 15, 2008 8:51 PM

psantillana said:

jwred18, the reason the MI and FL primaries were flawed - inherently, and not because the DNC wanted to prevent it happening:

1. These voter populations did not know their votes would be counted beyond "beauty contest" value. Some of them may have thought or wished it so, but that's not good enough. They - as a group - did not have notice this was for real, so it isn't. This goes double for Michigan, where Obama's name wasn't on the ballot. How could anybody think that was going to be for real?

2.  The candidates did not have notice, and did not campaign. This matters because our democratic system depends on informed voters, and relies upon candidates to inform them, for the very most part. And this point is why Carl Levin is a moron. Obama didn't put his name on the ballot because he had every reason to believe that it wasn't going to count - whether or not he agreed with the DNC.

February 15, 2008 9:08 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

You're right peter1943 - the media narrative of Hillary being the only one playing hardball is tiresome and just says more about the media than the campaigns.  They don't like Hillary and they are really obvious about it.

February 15, 2008 10:26 PM

jmkerr said:

"then why not revote as a closed primary?"

Works for me, provided the DNC pays for it and it's not a caucus.

But don't you think that's a moot point? After all, we agree that the only reason we're having this discussion is if Obama has lost Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. If he's lost those three, then he's losing Michigan and Florida. I mean, it's polite to pretend that the results would be different if the races were "contested" but Florida, certainly, was on an entirely equal playing field. Hillary will win Florida and Michigan if she wins TOP.

Thus, if Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania go for Hillary, then the demographics of Obama's support are fatally flawed. Why waste money in Michigan and Florida proving it? I suppose if it will allow everyone to accept the results and avoid civil war, it's money well spent for the Dems.

But no caucuses, and accept that if there's a need for a rematch,Hillary's already won.

February 16, 2008 2:19 AM

jwred18 said:

Mberger81 (11:29:43 PM): they should have a vote in flrorida

Mberger81 (11:29:46 PM): whether to revote

Mberger81 (11:29:51 PM): make em all go to the polls again

Mberger81 (11:29:54 PM): to vote on whether to revote

Mberger81 (11:30:07 PM): with it of course

Mberger81 (11:30:10 PM): being non binding

Mberger81 (11:30:18 PM): just a preference vote

Henryscott30 (11:30:41 PM): an opinion beauty contest

Mberger81 (11:30:44 PM): yes

Mberger81 (11:30:47 PM): but in michigan

Mberger81 (11:30:54 PM): revote

Mberger81 (11:30:58 PM): should not be on the ballot

Mberger81 (11:30:59 PM): just

Mberger81 (11:31:04 PM): no revote

Mberger81 (11:31:05 PM): and

Mberger81 (11:31:13 PM): uncommitted to no revote

Henryscott30 (11:31:17 PM): lol

February 16, 2008 2:33 AM

Wandreycer1 said:

Hilarious post jwred.  It does help to take a breather ever now and then and realize that this whole scenario is so over the top, its funny.

Last night:

I had a cab driver from Indonesia start yelling at me about Hillary the minute I sat down in his cab - no introduction, no preamble.  In a lovely, thick accent, he was more versed in her health care program than I've ever been. He loved Bill Clinton damn it, what was wrong with America not wanting this man back in office?  I got maybe five words in edgewise in a 40 minute ride to a board meeting.  I give him an Obama button when I get out, he smiles and says he says he will give to his wife.

Get to the meeting.  12 people. On one side of the room: four New York-self-made-power-mogul women, fanatics who have traveled to Iowa, NW and SC on their own dime.  Guess who they support?

The other half of the room - Obama kool-aiders (including me needless to say) and two people who hadn't decided (wise, silent 20 year olds several degrees more mature than the rest of the people in the room).

We discussed the topics we were supposed to discuss for the board meeting for appx 15 minutes ( we have all mostly known each other for 12 years).  The next two hours was Obama versus Hillary, with occasional laughs, occasional raised voices.  The last thing I remember was someone hectoring me about the state senate in Illinois, I don't remember if they were for or against.  I think I was yelling about Michigan, god only knows why, I haven't the first clue what I am talking about with that entire state (wasn't Gerald Ford from there?).  Someone said vagina.

Get home from "meeting."  Husband on the phone to brother in law - Obama/Hillary arguing, like everyone else in the entire country last night.  I holed up in my room, but heard murmurings about "superdelgates" and "Wisconsin" and "Al Gore and "hispanics" until midnight.

February 16, 2008 11:07 AM

riley said:

So out here in the Michigan hinterlands, the entire business does not look so matter of fact.  The primary was pitched as a beauty contest (the poll worker had to persuade me to mark anything on the ballot -- I did), essentially an exercise in futility.  While many in the Clinton camp continue to pose this as a question of what the candidates did, on the ground it sure looks as if we were deprived of a voice.   Moreover, we have been effectively deprived of any opportunity for the candidates to make their case.  Milt, Mac and the pack kept sweeping through, but we had no speeches, not contact.  Nada.  

At the very least, this is not party building.  And that brings up the most important reason for having a real caucus /primary: it builds the party.  A Party lacking in unity is going to be less effective in the State House where our governor is fighting for her political life.  Without an opportunity we are left less organized and so place a greater burden on the subsequent national campaign: when exactly, will they pay attention to us? (Hint: October is way too late).

As to the caucus in Michigan: this is run more as a closed primary.  The Party arranges polling sites -- fewer than in the general, but generally enough.  There are also mail-in ballots.  In this, the caucus is distinctively different from the IA-style selection.  

February 16, 2008 11:18 AM

basman said:

I live north of the 49th parallel and south of Alaska and so while I have  reasonable interest in American politics, I am not up on all the interstices of this issue so well laid out in the excellent main post and  in many of the excellent subsequent comments.

I also like Hillary over Obama.

But do I undestand this right in broad strokes?

1. Florida and Michigan decided to hold their primary contests before the time the DNC stipulated--super duper Tuesday;

2. In the result, the DNC decided that those states' delgates' votes at the convention would not count;

3. Obama does better in caucuses than Clinton; she does arguably better in big states in straight up primary votes; Florida nd Michigan are "big states"; she was doing better earlier on; he is now doing better generally;

4. Obama's name was not by his choice on the ticket in Michigan, but was in Florida. All candidates pledged not to campaign in Florida;

5. The decision by Florida is particularly galling becase it was made by a Republican controlled state legislature;

6. It has been suggested that Florida and Michigan now hold caucuses, which the DNC would honour and even help pay for;

7. Obama's position is if there can be a practical and timely way of having binding primary contests in those states, he's ok with it, and the contests do not have to be caucuses necessarily;

8. As a practical matter if Hillary loses either Texas or Ohio, she is done for and then the issue of Michaigan and Florida for all partical purposes is moot;

9. Hillary's present position is that the vote results in Florida and Michigan should now count and she opposes any form of redo--caucus or straight across the boards vote.

By no stretch of any fair thinking can I see any argument for Hillary's position as I understand. It seems lamentable to me, (even accepting the comments of peter1943  in the second paragraph of his February 15, 2008 6:42 PM post which I in fact wholeheartedly second.) Some form of redo--and an across the board vote at that--seems to be the best proposal for a very disaffecting situation. And as for Hillary's position, further, as Clay Davis just recently said to Billy Murphy "That is some shameful shit!"

What in broad strokes am I missing?

February 16, 2008 12:02 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Rikey - your post made me realize how ignored I would feel if my primary vote didn't count.  I honestly feel bad that your state party party didn't treat you more respectfully when making the decision to ignore the rules.  I certainly hope those people are held accountable for terrible, disrespectful decision making.  Fire them, and soon.

I agree that party building is vital to the long term stability and growth of the Democratic party and that a re-do might really energize that process in a way nothing else could in these unique circumstances.  If all parties agree to the same procedures, what can I say?  Maybe it will be better in the end.

I just wonder about the effect of punishments being rescinded. It sets such a terrible precident in many ways.  Live by the sword, die by it.  We must be accountable.

What would stop any state from breaking party rules or ignoring agreed upon processes in the future?  The process is there for a reason, free to be changed if one doesn't like it (like South Carolina did), but not after the fact.  In my professional experience, that lack of boundaries eventually destroys morale in any institutional or organizational setting.  I really resent MI and FL for doing that.

While I'm a supporter of voter empowerment, national party leadership also requires one guy (or entity) to be in charge and accountable at the end of the day.  Ignore that, and the process breaks down and nothing works.

If you listen to Representative Clyburn from South Carolna (an incredibly level headed, impressive man), he emphasizes how long, meticulous and detailed the process was for SC to have a primary this year for the first time, in this way, on this date.  

He patiently worked with national party leaders by asking them correctly and on time, following their rules, setting up everything by the book - appropriate polling sites, fair advertising rates, Congressional leadership remaining nuetral until it was over, and it all went beautifully (*organizationally* anyway, Hillary people would probably not agree that it went beautifully, but they cannot say it was disorganized or unfair in any way).  

Clyburn was adamant about protecting that work, even when the heat was on for him to brak ranks and endorse or comment on Bill Clinton's race baiting.  He was proud of his state, proud of the work he'd started over two years ago, which brought alot of money during those months into the state.  He had his eyes on the prize.

That was the right way to do it.

Sadly, your state representatives decided to risk disenfranchising you by attempting to bully their way through with their own agenda, an attitude that seems to be continuing.   They destroyed the party building opportunities, not the candidates.  I just hate to see that destructive, selfish behavior rewarded.

February 16, 2008 12:26 PM

marcellusw101 said:

Obama can't be thrilled about re-doing these states, caucus or no. Clinton has had the advantage of having (cynically) advocated on behalf of Michigan and Florida voters, while Obama does not. Obama therefore is at a huge disadvantage in any theoretical re-vote or do-over caucus. Egregious though it may be, all the candidates agreed not to campaign in those states. You can't unring a bell. Too bad for voters in those states, but to hold any kind of a re-do in Michigan or Florida would be an unfair competition.

February 16, 2008 12:31 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Great post basman.  

I didn't know the Florda legislature - dominated by Republicans - could mess with Democratic primary dates? Oy.  That needs to be fixed, doesn't it?  As you said, that is some shameful shit, but the FLorida legislature is not famous for its abundance of shame (remember 2000?).  They make Hillary's attempted stunt look downright respectable.

February 16, 2008 12:32 PM

AaronBBrown said:

basman

I think you've got the picture Itzik, in other words the Clintons have no character, and those who characterize their tactics as just hardball politics, have obviously sold their soul to the devil, and don't know the difference between right and wrong anymore.

The Clintons are currently fighting a proposed revote in Michigan and Florida with everything they've got, because they know that it will only compound their losses.

And now CNN a.k.a. the Clinton News Network is now running the "Obama Cult" story every 20 minutes on CNN headline news, a story with no basis in fact, but they give it credence because some Republicans and Clinton supporters are characterizing Obama supporters as cultists, and have been trying to make this characterization stick since shortly after Iowa. This is their idea of hardball politics, I call it unethical.

Now we have stories appearing on The Slate and elsewhere touting those who claim to be former cultists, but have come to their senses and seen the light, woken up from the spell that Obama put them under.  This is really disgusting, because the McCain people have allied themselves with the Clinton campaign in the hopes of staving off the Clinton defeat, because the McCain people would much rather run against Clinton, and the Clinton campaign is so desperate that they have undoubtedly called up the corporate weasels backing them, and who control CNN, and pleaded with them to do something, because if they can't come up with something soon, the Clintons are all done. So now we've got every third-rate charlatan in the pseudo media business trying to give this cult story traction.

This is a demonstration of the establishment forces coming together to fight a common foe, and that foe is change and the future, they'll do anything to prevent progress which threatens their bottom line and their control.

Perhaps you will reconsider your position Itzik, because even though you're a Canadian and have no say in the U. S. election, it would be nice to see all people of conscience and good judgment coming together to denounce these tactics.

February 16, 2008 12:41 PM

ChanRobt said:

Ladies and gentlemen, if this is the way the Democratic Party runs its primaries, why would anybody trust that same party to run the country.

The Democrats have been dysfunctional since 1968.  And this is a pitiful spectacle.

February 16, 2008 1:23 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Well Channy, I'll take this over top candidates proudly proclaiming they don't believe in evolution (or last generation's Republican am-I-idiot-enough-for-you-yet litmus test: that tobacco is not addictive) any time.  

February 16, 2008 2:29 PM

basman said:

Evolution: never heard of it. What are you saying, I'm descended from apes? No way: I'm a child of God: so were, for only one example, 6,000,000 others who lived till they died some 65 years ago.

Go Huckabee!

February 16, 2008 4:00 PM

basman said:

p.s. The posting is much better and more satisfying now that wiat time seems to have been eliminated.

February 16, 2008 4:28 PM

guyminuslife said:

We're all children of God, which is why he's behind bars for molesting his underage daughter Mary.

February 16, 2008 4:36 PM

guyminuslife said:

I'm still getting a wait.

February 16, 2008 4:37 PM

basman said:

ppss: I spoke too soon. This is the Plank. On the online pieces, the wait time is as bad as ever.

February 16, 2008 4:39 PM

wldctfan142 said:

The photo of hillary accompanying this post is a spot on indicator of the character within. It reminds me of what mental health people call the psychopathic stare, also known as a reptillian stare. The face shows little to no emotion, the eyes seem as if their staring right through a person. I'm told its also the look a predator in the wild has just before striking the prey.

February 16, 2008 5:02 PM

cspencef said:

So far I haven't seen much mention of the fact that *this has been done before* when states chose to try to jump the line in the primary/caucus process.  Mostly no one has ever noticed because it involved small states (it was Delaware once, I think) and the nominee was decided pretty quickly and the issue was moot.  So seating the MI/FL delegates would not only shaft those voters who decided not to participate in a meaningless beauty contest, and those candidates who chose to play by the DNC's rules (idiotic as those rules are), it would also shaft states and their voters which have already been penalized this way in the past.  I try not to jump on the Clinton camp too much--after all, I may be forced to vote for her in November--but good grief, just how much does she want to hand the election to the Repugs?

February 16, 2008 5:10 PM

jmkerr said:

"she was doing better earlier on; he is now doing better generally;"

This isn't true. The fundamentals haven't changed throughout. He does well in caucuses and states with 30% blacks. She does well everywhere else. What we're waiting for is to see whether the long string of favorable elections to him (black voting bloc, caucuses) will influence the whites and Hispanics who have been voting against him in large numbers to change their mind.

As for your righteous fuss about Clinton's position, Clinton has refused caucuses. While I don't know whether or not she's opposed a primary, the issue there has nothing to do with her own chances, and much to do with the cost and the delay. If she wins Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, she'll win Michigan and Florida in a rematch.

February 16, 2008 5:17 PM

basman said:

This isn't true. The fundamentals haven't changed throughout...

Spin it any way you like, and I like her: he has won the last string of primaries decisively. Something has changed: he has the appearance of starting to clean her clock as he has just done in Nebraska, Washington State, D.C. Maryland, Virgina, Maine, and Maryland (no doubt I have missed a couple)and will most likely do in Wisconsin. Her strategy is getting Giuliani like. And as I understand it,  though no big savant of voting patterns, in Virginia and Maryland, exit polls showed that he tied with her among white voters, and beat her with women, blue collar voters, rural voters, those over 65 years of age, Catholics, and Hispanics. In other words, generally his wins are becoming plentiful and big and he is increasingly cutting into her base. Plus besides growing his  base among Blacks and the young, he shows a consistent bigger appeal than her among ithe non affilaited and moderates. So it seems the fundamentals are in the midst of changing simultaneously with you trying to deny it.

As for your righteous fuss about Clinton's position,...

From what I have read she is opposed to any type of do over in Michigan and Florida and is arguing now that those votes should count. If she is in favour of any kind of redo, show me where she has said so. Obama's postion on the redo sems clear. I might have more sympathy for her position if it was in any way principled. Like following the rules you agreed to, or if not, then favour a real contest in those states. What it appears to me, a supporter of hers, is  that what she is trying to do is simply and cynically have it her way, anything principled be damned.

Make me a good argument otherwise, if you can or care to. I'd be happy to be convinced.

February 16, 2008 6:46 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

"the issue there has nothing to do with her own chances,"

jmkerr, like I said - when are you all going to share whatever it is you're smoking to be this delusional? I'm jealous.

You have got to be kidding, right?

February 16, 2008 7:03 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

Basman, the principle is very simple - as stated in her announcement video those many months ago "I'm in it to win."

February 16, 2008 7:05 PM

blackton said:

jmkerr, can you answer why Hillary has essentially ceded most of the caucus states? She lost by 60% in Idaho, and Obama won by above 60% in all of his last 8 victories. Why does she do so poorly in caucus states? Are people that unenthused by her that they can't make the effort to vote for her in those states? I don't see how she can win when she is so uninspiring to so many people. It is not like she didn't know all of these states were caucuses before. For the life of me, I don't understand why is she content to win with 50.1% of the Democratic vote. How does her ignoring most of America favor her in the general?

Last year she had a 47% unfavorable rating, does anybody know how high it is now especially since she is losing swing voters and independents in droves, and has done a horrendous job with blacks?

February 16, 2008 7:08 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

...not to mention being on the verge of losing half her own party Blackton.  Imagine still feeling entitled to the nomination - let alone the Presidency - after that.  

The idea tha she can somehow force everyone in this country - of any party - to do what she wants if she somehow wins the nomination by cheating is beyond delusional, beyond selfish and into something seriously creepy.  

When is the last time you heard her speak about anyone but herself?

February 16, 2008 7:27 PM

basman said:

...not to mention being on the verge of losing half her own party Blackton.  Imagine still feeling entitled to the nomination - let alone the Presidency - after that.

Where is her sense of entitlement? I don't see it. She is fighting for her political life and she and her campaign know that she is up against it. Unless you equate her cynical position as mooted on this thread  with a sense of entitlement: is that your argument?

I think she is doing the best she can, with a Maximillian Glick outside chance still to win. But your comments in your last post betray the very thing you seem to decry: that she really ought not be running anymore, she ought to pack it in. I think you are hyper ventilating some over her position here: "beyond delusional, beyond selfish and into something seriously creepy..."  

Let the race continue; let her bad position on the delegates count aginst her, if it does; and let us not get all morally apocalyptic here, I say, trying not to appear as arguing out of both sides of my mouth.

February 16, 2008 7:51 PM

dmishkin said:

I want to repeat and amplify what riley said: when we've had Democratic caucuses in Michigan, they have essentially been primaries. In order to get around the state's open-primary law, which has allowed Republicans to make mischief in Democratic primaries the past, the party established its own polling places with voting booths set up -- a secret ballot with no caucusing/discussing.

So this doesn't favor Obama as far as I can see. And I'm not aware of what polling has been done here, but I don't think there's any way of predicting right now where Michiganians' opinions will be after Texas and Ohio. I don't think either candidate can claim at this point to know what the outcome would be in a vote here -- although it's pretty likely that Clinton will have fewer delegates as a result of a new contest than she will if she manages to get the results of the January election confirmed.

Look, if I don't get to cast a vote because Carl Levin and others miscalculated, and then dug in when they could have simply called off the vote, I'll grudgingly accept that. But I'd be mightily P.O.'d if the delegates Clinton "won" were seated. I'm sure there are others like me who wanted to vote for someone other than Clinton but at the same time didn't want to vote "No to Clinton," which was essentially the only choice we had (it was made very clear that write ins would not even be counted up). I'll gladly support her if she's the nominee, so I had no interest in taking a gratuitous swipe at her. And since we were assured the election would have no *practical* outcome as far as delegates were concerned, a swipe is all my vote would have been.

But I'd like to cast a real vote, which I would think of not as a do-over but a do. Because it doesn't seem to me that those of us asking for a vote in the spring are asking to change the rules. The rules said the primary was a nullity, after all, and that's how we're asking that it be treated.

February 16, 2008 8:12 PM

Wandreycer1 said:

basman -

I have always admired Hillary's competitive spirit, I've been watching her many years now, after all.  Fighting for one's political life is totally fair game. That dynamic is in the DNA of all Clinton supporters  (I'm a Bill person, not a Hillary person, but I admired her fighting spirit in  the 90's), we'd hardly know how to support them without that animating us.  That and a constant need to forgive are just parts of being on their team.  I love Bill Clinton despite hating him sometimes. 90% of Bill people deal with this dynamic, it's even stronger in those that know him, I hear.

I get the sense that Hillary feels entitled by two things:  her use of the term "leapfrogging" when referring to Barack Obama (if that's not entitlement, what is) and this grotesque MI, FL fight.  

Both of these incidents are big to me, hard to overlook - they both show a lack of humility and honesty that I just can't stomach.  Doesn't she care how much this would tear apart the country?  I haven't heard a word about that part of it in her arguments for this, no laments for the potential discord, only disingenuous transparent, self serving hooey.  

This isn't to say that she isn't a solid candidate, she is, very much so.  I can't help it, she's just not my favorite person. I wish I could trust her and like her, believe me, I really do - but I do not.

But I do deeply admire her intellectual ability and I have always said she has the ability to be one of the most influential and important senators in US history - the Senate is a perfect place for Hillary's strengths.  

February 16, 2008 8:19 PM

blackton said:

basman, thanks for your posting. you have been the sole consistent Clinton supporter who has acknowledged the opponents arguments. I think you have done her far more credit here than bagdad bob pccostello whose every answer is rezco. It really is a shame you weren't advising her because she would probably have it in the bag by now.

February 16, 2008 8:23 PM

hrlngrv said:

Here's something with which Al Gore and/or John Edwards could go on record, or would coming down on one side or the other be an effective endorsement?

The FL case is different from the MI case. The FL date was set by a Republican state legislature (but I suppose the state and national democratic parties could have called for a boycott of the too-early primary). Still, both remaining serious candidates' names were on the ballot. It'd only be an issue of the national party caving in (so expect the 2012 Iowa caucus some time in mid summer 2011).

MI is different. Obama did what he was asked to do - remove his name from the ballot. Clinton didn't (or did the MI election authorities not care?). How is that election fair? Clearly some in the Democratic party don't care about fairness. Maybe a compromise could be offerred - give Clinton her win in MI but leave her name off the general election presidential ballot. Her legions of supporters could write in her name. Be what she and her supporters deserve.

February 16, 2008 8:42 PM

blackton said:

and wandrey I agree. if she had been the candidate of her last debate with Barack, and the candidate who was on Letterman, she would have been so much more formidable. I also have no problem her arguing her positions, that is fair game but like you said, this Fl-Michigan nonsense, and leapfrogging statement, plus Mark Penn and Bill, have made her so tiring.

Can any Clinton supporter point to one area where Obama has come off as looking underhanded? one area where people said he went to far? once one of his staffers did but Obama quickly apologized (has Hillary ever done so?)

only one other time people complained about one of his ads about mandates, but people complained because they didn't agree with it, not because anything was untrue.

February 16, 2008 8:47 PM

jmkerr said:

"jmkerr, can you answer why Hillary has essentially ceded most of the caucus states?"

Dem caucus voters are all white liberals in those states. This is well established. That's a group that has always been strongly in favor of Obama. The only caucuses she seriously worked on were Iowa (which she tried to skip because she knew about the Obama favoritism) and Nevada, the only place that she could count on Hispanics.

<i> I don't see how she can win when she is so uninspiring to so many people.</i>

Outside of black voters, Hillary has "inspired" far more people than Obama has. Over a million people voted for her in California alone.

In contrast, Obama has "inspired" 3,000 people in Maine, and 26,000 in Nebraska.

I believe if you compare primary votes (leaving out caucuses), Hillary was ahead through Super Tuesday. I expect her to be ahead in primary votes after Texas and Ohio again--the Potomac primaries were over 30% black turnout, and that gives Obama a temporary advantage. (Let me repeat again that if he wins Texas, etc, the momentum has given him those demographics. I'm only addressing a) whether this is likely and b) what should happen if he loses them.)

"especially since she is losing swing voters and independents in droves"

You don't know this. She is losing swing voters and independents *who choose to vote in Dem primaries*. That is a HUGE difference. In the general, what matters is where the majority of swing voters and independents go. McCain has huge appeal on that count, and it's hard to argue that swing voters and independents (a predominantly white group) will go for Obama in a big way. Historically, they've gone Republican, although Kerry won them in 2004. But McCain isn't Bush.

The metric that matters in the Dem primary is Democratic voters, and Hillary wins white Dem voters almost everywhere.

"Obama did what he was asked to do - remove his name from the ballot. Clinton didn't (or did the MI election authorities not care?). How is that election fair? "

I'm pretty sure that Obama was not asked to remove his name from the ballot. He did that of his own accord. In fact, it was a *strategic* move on his part to make Hillary look bad in Iowa.  He reached out to all the other candidates to convince them to remove their names, too. Some went along. Some didn't. (source: iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do)

Basman:

"Something has changed: he has the appearance of starting to clean her clock as he has just done in Nebraska, Washington State, D.C. Maryland, Virgina, Maine, and Maryland"

Nothing has changed. He won because all the votes in February have been either caucuses or a 30% black voter base. It was preordained that he'd win these primaries. Hillary knew it at the beginning of the month, as did everyone else.

The only real question is whether what you correctly refer to as the "appearance" of his cleaning her clock, thanks to the favorable environments, has caused whites and Hispanics to see him in a more favorable light. That will be determined by TOP.

"From what I have read she is opposed to any type of do over in Michigan and Florida and is arguing now that those votes should count. "

I agree that she's opposed to a do over. But as I understand it, her reasons are: 1) caucuses under no circumstances, 2) a do-over vote would be extremely expensive for the states.

I suspect that if she knew the vote would be direct, she'd agree. Look, she has no reason at all to fear a do-over if she wins TOP. She's certain to win huge. Her adamant opposition is probably sourced in the concern that if she gives in on do-over, then the risk of a caucus goes up. She can't afford a caucus--nor should she.

Not that it matters what her position is, really. The states refuse. All this fussing about the candidates' position is just a reason to get fussed about another talking point. They have nothing to say about it.

Besides, as I said earlier, there's no reason to have a do-over. If Obama can't win white and Hispanic votes in TOP, he's not going to win them in Michigan and Florida, so why waste the time?

But that's my position, not Camp Hillary's.

February 16, 2008 10:04 PM

basman said:

jmkerr:

1. the only answer to what we are discussing concerning the votes is what happens in Texas and Ohio and thenin Pennsylvania.  Despite her position on the delegates, which disappoints me, I hope she wins. So I hope your analysis is correct.

2. But you do not address the issue of the lousiness of her position on the votes in Ohio and Michigan.

February 16, 2008 11:04 PM

liebig said:

Jmkerr:  There's no rule change involved?  When the party tells the voters in advance that the election will not award delegates?

So if the Supreme Court steps in and decides a presidential election based on a rule they made up after the election was over, I guess that's okay.  Everyone knows the Supreme Court gets the final say, so how can we complain that there's been a rule change?

February 16, 2008 11:57 PM

jmkerr said:

"But you do not address the issue of the lousiness of her position on the votes in Ohio and Michigan."

You mean Florida and Michigan, right?

There's no "position" to address. So what if she opposes a revote? It's a perfectly unobjectionable position. It's a bizarre thing to obsess over. The whole situation is a mess, and to pretend there's one morally unobjectionable position to hold is to preserve a really unseemly level of delusion.

"There's no rule change involved?  When the party tells the voters in advance that the election will not award delegates?"

No. There isn't. The party can tell the voters anything it likes. The credentials committee makes the call.

"So if the Supreme Court steps in and decides a presidential election based on a rule they made up after the election was over, I guess that's okay.  "

Except, you know, there's this thing called the constitution? Perhaps you've heard of it.

February 17, 2008 1:14 AM

wgtw47 said:

There is nothing wromg with "redoing" an election if the results of that election are of questionable validity (which is clearly the case here).  There are only two options for a fair outcome in this situation: either do not count the delegates from these states at all or have another vote.  I would agree, however, that a caucus would be a poor substitute for a primary.  If it must be redone, do it correctly - as a primary.

February 17, 2008 2:08 AM

basman said:

...You mean Florida and Michigan, right?...

Right!

...There's no "position" to address. So what if she opposes a revote? It's a perfectly unobjectionable position. It's a bizarre thing to obsess over. The whole situation is a mess, and to pretend there's one morally unobjectionable position to hold is to preserve a really unseemly level of delusion....

This is absurd: she can oppose another vote, but not at the same time as she wants votes from the originally ruled out votes to count. I'm not *obsessing* over anything; I'm just saying her position here marks her lousy. The whole thing is a mess, you say. So what?  There may be other morally objectionable positions to hold.  And no one that I have read here is arguing that there is only one, or "pretending" that.  Rather, the one position that has been commented on is hers and it is indeed objectionable. Other positions have to be judged on their own merits, and if you adduce them, I'll be happy, for one, to give them, imho, my moral and logical thumbs up or thumbs down.

...No. There isn't. The party can tell the voters anything it likes. The credentials committee makes the call....

How arrogant is this! And such a terrible argument!

To wit:

If the credentials committee were to allow in the for now outlawed votes--your argument--that might be its prerogative, but it would be wrong. Cohn says it a practical impossibility. Maybe yes and maybe no. But while that decision might be technically within the purview of that commitee, its assent to it would be wrong on the transcendently self-evident ground of elementary unfairness.

Your argument here is incredibly legalistic and patently unpersuasive, which is to say it is really a bad argument. By your logic, scotus can never make a wrong a decision--not Dred Scott, not Plessy v Ferguson, not anything--because as a court of last resort it has the power to decide whatvever it decides. That omits the fact scotus, no less than your vaunted credentials committee, needs legitimacy to exist. A decision such as the one you assert could be made would rend that committee's legitimacy asunder.

And then where are you were Hillary to get the nod on that basis? The Democrats would be fucked in the general election as there would be metaphoric Democratic blood on metaphoric Democrat streets. Such disaffection and such chaos would be the wages of such illegitimacy. Following this reasoning to these conclusions now persaudes me that Wandrey and Blackton and others are correct to have been more alarmed by her position, than I was originally, but now find myself, in the course of addressing your bad reasoning.

Finally, for you to go on about others' "unseemly delusion" and "pretending" and so on is only to invoke loaded language to mask the reality that you cannot defend, by your frail reasoning, the indefensibility of Hillary's  position on this issue.

February 17, 2008 2:18 AM

AaronBBrown said:

Jmkerr

How can you engage in a debate when you're not even versed on the facts.  You seem to be one of those people who likes to rearrange reality to fit your conclusions. Here's the breakdown for California, since you're obviously not paying attention. Votes, percentage and delegates.

California

Clinton -- 2,144,251 -- 52% -- 207

Obama -- 1,746,013 -- 42% -- 163

The people who show up for the Democratic caucuses are Democrats, liberal Democrats, moderate Democrats and even conservative Democrats. And those who don't show up are those who aren't interested in the process, much like yourself apparently.  Barack Obama has obviously gotten support from every demographic group, cutting across all age, racial, gender and ethnic lines.  Otherwise he would not be leading in the popular vote, the delegate count and the number of states won.  Your desperate rationalizations just don't play in the real world, perhaps you should consider joining the rest of us here in reality.

If you're a Hillary Clinton supporter, I suggest you encourage your candidate to starts showing some character and class, instead of playing every ugly underhanded card she and Mark Penn can think of, and perhaps she will be offered the vice presidents seat, because the way it looks now that's the only office she has any chance of achieving in this election.

February 17, 2008 10:00 AM

jmkerr said:

"How arrogant is this! And such a terrible argument! "

Don't confuse arguments with facts. I'm not arguing with you. I'm pointing out reality. Did you actually read the links Cohn posted?  The DNC's "rule" ends the moment they put delegates on the "temporary roll". Here's the procedure:

"Only delegates and alternates selected under a delegate selection procedure approved by the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee and in accordance with the rules shall be placed on the Temporary Roll of the 2008 Democratic National Convention."

That's when the DNC's role in the event ends. After that, the Credentials Committee takes over.

At its simplest: The DNC doesn't seat Michigan and Florida in the Temporary Roll. Michigan and Florida challenge. If no one contests their challenge, the credentials committee will approve the challenge and seat the delegates.

Obviously, the issue is whether or not someone challenges. What I am predicting (not arguing) is that the Dems will simply not tolerate a challenge, because that will leave their nomination unresolved until August. Therefore, Obama's team will not challenge because:

1. He won Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and everything else, thus he doesn't need the delegates.

2. He won Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvana, and even though Hillary could technically make things difficult in a strict delegate count, she is pressured to concede the nomination.

3. Hillary won Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and Obama is pressured to accept that in any meaningful sense, Hillary has won the nomination through her demographic and large state victories.

Again,this isn't an argument. I'm not trying to convince you.I could care less what you or anyone else (including me) wants to happen. This is almost certainly what will happen. I realize the Democrats have no ability to actually mandate outcomes, but no one wants this up in the air until August.

"And then where are you were Hillary to get the nod on that basis? "

I realize this is impossible for diehard partisans to grasp, but I still haven't made up my mind who I would vote for in a Hillary vs. McCain matchup. I can't stand Obama and wouldn't vote for him under any circumstance, but my discussion here is related exclusively to the horserace aspect.

As for where Hillary is if she wins on case 3? She's just fine.The Dem elites will all keep the same rhetoric about the "voice of the people". Theywill argue that they can't ignore the will of the people, but now the will of the people is reflected in the largest states with the most democratic voting processes were nearly unanimous.  They will be given cover because a number of black leaders will have come out in favor of allowing Michigan and Florida, arguing disenfranchisement otherwise.  

Obama will be told that the Dems can't give him the nomination based on caucuses in Nebraska and Kansas and the black vote, and that if he bows down now, he will be a player forever. He will, if he has sense, negotiate a guaranteed AG position in her administration because he can't be stupid enough to want veep. (If he does want it, he'll get it, of course.)  He will give a stirring oration.

Blog commenters, the media, and elites in general will pout. Oh, well. No one cares about how you feel.

Again, that's my prediction IF Hillary wins TOP.  Not an argment.

If, god forbid, the Dems are stupid enough to let this go to August, then they deserve whatever happens.

February 17, 2008 11:09 AM

basman said:

jmkerr:

I apprehend that you are changing the ground on me. I thought we were arguing an issue. Now you say you are making no argument, just speculating on different outcomes.

Whatever.

Nothing you have just said, while interesting enough, changes what I was trying to argue, not that you were just trying to do that.

February 17, 2008 12:38 PM

jmkerr said:

" I thought we were arguing an issue."

Your mistake. You made some assertions that were incorrect or illfounded. I corrected.

February 17, 2008 1:30 PM

Crock1701 said:

Vis a  Vis Demographics:  Hillary powers her wins in White Democrats through White Women.  jmkerr, the key swing Democratic demographic should be White MEN Democrats.  If you intend to penalize Obama for having the gall to win states with 30% African American turnout, then hold Hillary to her gender gap as well.  That's only fair.  In that rubric, Obama won White Men 48-45 in Maryland, and 58-40 in Virginia.  That may be the demographic shift you're looking for to validate his nomination, if it holds up.  

February 17, 2008 2:11 PM

pastortim said:

   I live in Michigan and I am a life-long Democrat.  From the beginning I felt frustrated by the Michigan Democratic Party (the MDP) and their leaders (the vast majority of whom openly support Ms. Clinton) by moving the primary up in violation of National Democratic Party rules.  The argument was that Michigan needs the national spotlight of being an early primary state because times are so difficult here -- and that Michigan would then have a say in who would be nominated for president by the Democratic Party.  It was explained to me that the short-term pain involved in this election cycle (due to the "no delegate" sanction for breaking party rules) would be made-up for in the future when Michigan's early primary status would become accepted by the DNC and Michigan would have an early influence in choosing the nominee in four years.   The assumption was that this year's nominee (read Clinton) would be chosen by the end of Super Tuesday, so this year's sanction wasn't going to matter anyway.  Michigan delegates would be seated because it really wouldn't matter.

   However, after the Iowa caucus and New Hampshire primary, it became evident that Ms. Clinton was going to be challenged by Obama.  All of a sudden, Michigan's primary might have meant something had it been held in February according to party rules.  There was a lot of frustration vented at the MDP before the January primary for messing up an opportunity for Michigan to have an influence on who the Democratic nominee might be.... the main reason the Michigan primary date was moved forward in the first place.  The MDP's response was that even though Obama's name was not on the ballot -- Obama supporters should vote "uncommitted."  Those of us who wanted to vote for Obama complained to the MDP that we were being disenfranchised because we could not vote for the national candidate of our choice.  So people like me had to make a decision:  either to vote "uncommited" and pray the uncommitted delagates voted for Obama (if the Michigan delegation was allowed to be seated) or stay home.  I voted -- but I resented the fact my vote wasn't going to count in two ways -- the Michigan delegation was going to be sanctioned and Obama's name was not on the ballot basically because the MDP lead by our Governor, our Senators, and Democratic Congressmen blatently conspired to break party rules.

    A few weeks later, Ms. Clinton began hinting that the Michigan delegation should be seated according to the primary election held in early January.   I nearly fell off my seat.  First the primary wasn't going to count anyway, then I couldn't vote for Obama in the primary, now Ms. Clinton wants to use our screwed-up "primary" to help her defeat Obama.  And the argument is that people like me will be disenfranchised if Michigan's delegates are not seated -- ignoring the fact that those of us who wished to support Obama have already been disenfranchised.  The whole thing just reaks of elite power politics.  I am so disappointed in our state party leadership.

    Don't look for there to be a caucus in Michigan this summer.  The powers that be in the MDP  are indicating that they plan to fight to have the Michigan delegation seated "as is."   I believe our state party leaders will stick by our disfunctional primary decision because they believe they have a good chance to have Michigan's current delegates seated by arguing that Democrats will alienate Michigan for the general election if they are not.  Once they are seated, the delegate advantange for Ms. Clinton will help her over-the-top at a brokered convention.

    The best Obama supporters in Michigan can hope for is that Obama wins a clear majority of delegates to the convention in the remaining contests -- and the DNC will stick to its guns and not seat our bogus delegation.  

    What a mess.  If Clinton gets the nomination in this unethical fashion, I will be sorely tempted to vote for McCain just to spite our state party leaders.  And I don't think I'm the only Michigan Democrat that feels this way.  There will be consequences.

February 17, 2008 2:19 PM

ChanRobt said:

Ok, Wandreycer1, I'm on your side.  I hope the Democratic Party is undecided on a candidate all the way until the convention of late August.

During that convention, I hope there is a knock down drag out battle among the delegates and Super Delegates.  I hope there are demonstrations in the streets as people protest the party bosses usurping the popular will of the primaries.

Then, after all that's hashed out, let's see how you get it together overnight for the two-months campaign that immediately follows.

I don't think McCain's lead platform issue is going to be the removal of evolution instruction in the public schools.  I hope you're not counting on that to offset the Democrats' problems.

February 17, 2008 2:47 PM

ironyroad said:

It seems to me that, in order for him to win, McCain's lead platform issue will need to sound something like this:  "Hey independents, you have to understand I was required to spout all that standard Republican boilerplate in order to win the nomination -- and now, my friends, I'm your favorite principled maverick pragmatist once more!"

We'll see who's in the mood to buy that one in November.

February 17, 2008 3:20 PM

blackton said:

"especially since she is losing swing voters and independents in droves"

You don't know this. She is losing swing voters and independents *who choose to vote in Dem primaries*. That is a HUGE difference. In the general, what matters is where the majority of swing voters and independents go. McCain has huge appeal on that count, and it's hard to argue that swing voters and independents (a predominantly white group) will go for Obama in a big way.

jmkerr: Patently untrue, one need only look at the amount of independent voters early on who had the choice of voting for McCain or Obama in the open primaries, and they have gone overwhelmingly for Obama (except in New Hampshire, where many might have been seduced by the poll number showing Obama winning big). Do you mean to say an independent when given the choice to vote for McCain, when he was at his most vulnerable, would instead choose Obama but later to go back to McCain? That is just bizarre reasoning. Hillary, meanwhile, has shown no ability to get swing voters or independents, and will be another Kerry or Dukakis, or worse a Mondale, only winning the base of the democratic party in the general going down to certain defeat.

These are facts, you can not argue that independents who voted for Obama over McCain as evidence that they will not vote for him in the general, but if she wins the nod will vote for her. I honestly would like to see you torture reason to prove this.

February 17, 2008 3:32 PM

blackton said:

ironyroad, if it is Hillary, I will buy it. Come on, HIllary is promising everybody in America a frozen interest rates on mortgages (never mind this will cause a depression) a $25 an hour minimum wage, free universal health care for all (except illegal immigrants, she conveniently ignores that issue) and a mandated pony for everybody. McCain only has to read back all of Hillary recent pandering back to the population to prove she is unfit for office. And expect McCain to choose Condi Rice as his VP if Hillary gets the nod. Goodbye black vote.

February 17, 2008 3:40 PM

ChanRobt said:

Blackie, I can't say enough bad about Hillary.  But, do you really expect that she should be offering her free health care to illegals?  Of did you simply mean that she sidesteps the problem of illegals cashing in on free health care for which there will be no citizenship test?  (And which will attract YET MORE illegals.)

February 17, 2008 4:23 PM

ironyroad said:

blackton, I take your point.  But I was assuming -- perhaps wrongly --- that ChanR meant that no matter who gets the Democratic nomination, he/she will be crippled by the preceding internal struggle, a much tighter, more focused Republican campaign, and increasing plusses for McCain in the polls.  I don't believe this to be the case, as (a) I don't envisage the uncertainty persisting right down to the convention in the way I think he imagines, (b) McCain has some major hurdles to overcome before he starts to look and sound like the presidential candidate (Obama already does), and (c) there's every sign that the voters on both sides are aware of what has to be worked through and are patient with it -- what Democrats want is a fair contest and the best man/woman to go forward, and not vote-fixing.

Nevertheless, I would emphasize that assuming that the only Democratic strategy will be to hope that McCain comes out for mandatory teaching of creationism is just plain silly.  It's McCain that has the uphill battle at the moment,

February 17, 2008 4:47 PM

miguknamja4 said:

AaronBBrown: <i>Florida and Michigan screwed themselves, and if the people in those states don't like it they need to take it up with their legislature. I know the Florida legislature intimately and they're a band of idiot buffoons.</i>

pastortim:  <i>What a mess.  If Clinton gets the nomination in this unethical fashion, I will be sorely tempted to vote for McCain just to spite our state party leaders.  And I don't think I'm the only Michigan Democrat that feels this way.  There will be consequences.</i>

I can empathize with both these commenters, and agree with what they argue. For the sake of the party, and winning the White House, Floridians and Michiganders have to forget the insult foisted upon Dems by their legislatures. Dems should take the high ground and propose a national primary, or something like Fair Vote's American Plan, so that this insult does not occur again.

In the meantime, it's cathartic to focus our anger on the state legislators and voting them out of office.

February 17, 2008 7:37 PM

miguknamja4 said:

I empathize with and agree with AaronBBrown and pastortim. I do not agree with Jonathan Cohn's approach. As a Floridian, I'm angry with Florida legislators for breaking DNC rules. For the good of the party and the hopes of putting a Dem in the White House, I want them voted out of office, or at least defunded and de-listed by the DNC in their next contests. To take the high ground, Dems need to propose a national primary or something like Fair Vote's American Plan, not adopt self-serving proposals. Both Senators Clinton and Obama would be good nominees. But, Dems should not reward ambition with adulatory rhetoric for either contestant.

Obviously, what's wrong with the party is not the rules, but members like Jonathan Cohn.

February 17, 2008 7:52 PM

tomeg said:

I'll begin with my concluding argument: if Clinton and Obama can read the tea leaves, and really care that there be a Democrat in the White House come January, they'll  work out an arrangement amongst themselves and the DNC. At least it would nullify all the foolish proposals being debated here.

In that spirit:

jmkerr - I agree that if the DNC or the convention's credentials committee can do what they want, but I'd remind you that the whole premise of this shambles was of the DNC's making (along with the respective state party organizations), and it was not - let me repeat, NOT based on anything remotely resembling fairness. To the fairness position I say fairness shmairness, *it's politics, stupid*. (I'm not saying or implying that you are stupid, just borrowing the phrase).

The processes by which political parties choose nominees, the way it is now, is simply hardball politics, designed to obtain a result the party can live and hopefully flourish with. And if they misjudge and screw up even more what is screwed already, well, they will have to clean it up best they can - with the "help" of all concerned. There simply is no going back and redoing any bloody thing, the game now is going forward, and if the party apparatus can't manage it, gee oh gosh, I suppose the party may have to suffer in the general election.

"The Party buttered its bread, now it must sleep on it."  /I. Malaprop, by permission

February 17, 2008 8:14 PM

mollypowell said:

Miceelf writes, "Many people stayed home because they actually beleived (sic) Clinton when she said it wouldn't count."

I thought there were record turn outs? How is that many people staying home?

Why do you put that dig in about Clinton when in your previous paragraph you say all the candidates said it wouldn't count?

Michigan is one thing, but the delegates from Florida should definitely be seated. All candidates were on the ballot, and all candidates refrained from campaigning there. Well, except for Obama, who ran tv ads on CNN that aired in Florida.

February 17, 2008 8:23 PM

tomeg said:

I strongly favor a party fight over delegates, and to hell for now with voters' and caucusers' so-called rights, as with their preferences. We Democrats would do well to learn up just how dysfunctional our Party really is, up close and personal. Leave aside my thoughts and feelings about the candidates, I bloody hell *HATE* OUR PARTY. If we want reform and sanity in our processes and competence in our elected party representatives, we've got to remake the party and stop pretending we can all get along when obviously we cannot. I think a lost general election will make the point nicely. It's only what we deserve.

Personally I'm all in favor of unfairness if we get a strong leadership and really, not nominally committed participants. Some - no, many - egos will have to give way to a superego that has real authority that can make Democrats the force we can be. It can't be wished into being, nor can it be artificially manufactured for weak argument that we deserve to win elections. Phooey.

February 17, 2008 8:31 PM

jmkerr said:

" Hillary powers her wins in White Democrats through White Women. "

No evidence that this is true. Hillary generally wins the white male vote, with few exceptions. When she loses it, it's usually because of indepedents and Republicans voting in the primary.

"Do you mean to say an independent when given the choice to vote for McCain, when he was at his most vulnerable, would instead choose Obama but later to go back to McCain? "

I mean to say it would be foolish in the extreme to assume that white independents would vote for Obama over McCain when every bit of demographic history over the decades says otherwise.  Do you really think that all the independents who will vote in the general voted in the primary? Are you certain that independents who voted for Obama did so because they actively supported him?

You have no idea why they voted, and who they will votefor in the general. Al Gore lost the independent vote to Bill Bradley. He split the independent vote with George Bush, and that's with 5% of the left side in the independent realm going for Bradley. That suggests that Hillary wouldn't do that badly with them, particulalry when you consider that Al Gore also lost men by large margins against Bush. On the other hand, McCain is the independents' darling. Maybe independents assumed he had no chance and now,delighted that he's the candidate, will vote for him. Who knows?

What you *do* know is that white and Hispanic Democrats   displayed a notable preference for Hillary. To argue that it's okay to ignore that because hey, they won't vote for McCain,they're Democrats! and that Obamawill win white male voters in large numbers is just goofy.

None of this is intended to argue that *all* white and Hispanic Demswill vote for McCain, so spare me the goofball non-rebuttals.

February 17, 2008 9:05 PM

scrubbyoak said:

This is not a "goofball non rebuttal", jmkerr.  What is this your obsession with race? Just about every post with your moniker on it is all about race, and always with an implication that Americans are too racist to vote for Obama.

Well, so far, he has gotten more votes than Hillary, all of it from AMERICANS in the Democratic party.  Starting out as a heavy favorite, if Hillary, with assets like Bill Clinton and "35years of experience",  can't beat out an "inexperienced" newcomer -  a black man named Barack Hussein Obama -  in a clear-cut manner among Democrats, what makes you think she can beat McCain? Think about that before you post your next race-loaded post.

February 17, 2008 11:51 PM

tomeg said:

blackton,

I think it's presumptuous to believe that African Americans will predominantly vote GOP if Condi is on the ticket with McCain, if that is what you're suggesting. Many conservative African Americans and a fair number of center-right independents, possibly, but it wouldn't be a bloc vote. Same would be true for Latino Americans.

I agree re: Clinton's pandering. It's breathtaking if you lay it all out. Another reason the Democratic Party isn't credible to most voters, and why Obama is more credible to independents than HRC, who in turn needs all the credibility she can get to hope to win in November.

February 18, 2008 12:57 AM

jmkerr said:

"What is this your obsession with race?"

You can't possibly be that dim. Do you think it's just a coincidence that exit polls are broken down by race? You think it's just random happenstance that blacks vote 90% for the Dems? That whites in presidential primaries vote predominantly for Republicans?

The Democratic primary is clearly dividing along racial lines. Maybe that will change. If it doesn't, it's not obsession to point it out. Trust me, the Dems themselves are clearly aware of it.

February 18, 2008 2:39 AM

The Plank said:

It&#39;s a near-certainty that neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama will finish the primaries and

March 7, 2008 1:35 AM

The Plank said:

When it comes to arguments over how superdelegates should make up their minds about the Democratic nomination

March 24, 2008 12:18 AM