I'm one of those who takes the Iran threat seriously.  And I can only look at this as really great news because, unlike some, I actually don't want the U.S. to have to take military action there.  The assessment says that Iran's program has been dead for years, that it was stopped in response to international scrutiny and pressure, and that Iran's pursuit of this program and other actions on the world stage are susceptible to rational cost-benefit analysis rather than Islamo-crazy.  This is all really good news.  Why can't it just be good news, Corner?

jhilder writes:  "This is all really good news.  Why can't it just be good news, Corner?"

well, clearly we Talkbackers here at TNR have an agenda and are just too happy to have found an NIE that comports with that agenda.  

Why do we hate American? (And what is the turning radius of U-235?)

What's with the bullshit about the commas, you twit. In fact, truth to tell, there are not enough of them here: there should be a comma after "lethal."

But more, why don't you, Chotiner, give the implicit, snide, self-satsified, "I'm so smart, and hip, and cool too, and you're so, sort of, dumb, and such a rube, and so L7" routine a rest?

It reeks of patronising condescension, especially here, where you are as a flea, or a gant, or a termite, or such like, to Victor Davis Hanson's elephant.

MJMckay, cracked me up on that one...

RE: Islamofacists [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

TEE HEE!!!!!!!!!! GO ROMNEY

[9:30pm]

Islamofacists: [Andy McCarthy]

The Islamofascists, in their grave depravity, with their wanton hatred of freedom, which the Left treacherously does not understand, whereas President Gore, who have asked the UN, for permission to invade, to invade, to invade, to invade Afghanistan, which the Islamofascists, who hate our freedom, would have applauded, who would have surrendered our lives for the ability, which is not expressed, which Bush has expressed, which is not the reason why, after all of these years and some small setbacks in Iraq, the Left hates freedom, which is not, a, lot, whereas Andrew Sullivan is gay, Hillary is the nominee, yada yada, and so on and so on, whereas Ramesh Ponnuru is not gay. Whereas social conservative and what not hereye hereye founding fathers 24 Romney Romney Mormon gay marriage Hillary, torturing the Japonese in camps was the right thing to do I want to bone Michelle Malkin.

[9:29 PM]

Agreed with Chotiner's answer to VDH's first question.  I think we as liberals could even graciously concede that, at the time, the invasion did indeed frighten some other regimes in a salutary way. This in no way contradicts the best national-security argument against the war now, that its bungled prosecution has distracted us from pursuing the real 9/11 culprits, weakened our military, damaged our credibility, and provided Al Qaeda with a useful training ground. Taking up the argument that VDH rules out on our behalf, we could then point out how even this early benefit of the war, scaring Iran straight (*), has been threatened by the Administration's continual warmongering, backing Iran into a corner so that they might as well *actually* get a nuclear weapons program if they're going to be treated as if they were anyway.

Meanwhile, Democrats could point to a lost benefit of the war that Republicans would have to argue never existed.

In short, I don't see this is a problem for Democrats if they play it right (**). I wish VDH would stick to the Peloponnesian Wars, where he can still do some good for advancing human knowledge.

---

(*) Which is why there are no gays there.

(**) Which they won't.

Beautiful catch, Chotiner. Love seeing the chickenhawks twist in their nuclear winter wind.

I wonder how long the Beauchamp-bashing righties will continue to malinger areound our TNR.com, polluting the comment threads with their droppings, per "basman." "Gant," indeed!

virginiacentrist, that was really amusing!

Basman:  I guess we didn't need the comma comment, but, truth be told, there's no excuse for the one  between "that" and "Iran" and no need for one after "unpredictable."  Speaking of which, I like the "elephant's" idea of diplomacy.  It's similar to my mom's approach to harassers or muggers: act crazy and they'll get scared and run off.  Our foreign policy slogan should be, "Of course, we wouldn't do *that*....  Or would we?  Hey, you never know.  Clear the planet!  Clear the planet!  Bababooie, bababooie, bababooie, bababooie, bababooie!"

1. "Iranian entities are continuing to develop a range of technical capabilities that could be applied to producing nuclear weapons, if a decision is made to do so. For example, Iran’s civilian uranium enrichment program is continuing. We also assess with high confidence that since fall 2003, Iran has been conducting research and development projects with commercial and conventional military applications—some of which would also be of limited use for nuclear weapons." Same report.

2(1) Jhildner: you are correct that there should not have been a comma after "that" and before "Iraq".  The phrase..."unpredictable, but lethal" could have been written as "unpredictable but lethal..." or "unpredictable, but lethal,..." That is simply a stylistic decision, though it was wrong to put in a comma after "unpredictable and not to put one after "lethal". And you are probably right that he was better off without comma there. But the point is of course who gives a shit. The guy dashed something off in a roling blog, made a point that can be dealt with on such merits as it has, but was, rather, met with an attack on his use of commas, as if that use was as self-evidently absurd as the comment itself. I for one-and a minority of one on this thread I guess-thought Hanson had something of a point. It was at least worthy of being dealt with by a bit of argument as opposed to Chotiner's  implicit and highly self-satisfied ad hominem.

2(2) I have decided I will never mug or harass your mother now that you tell me of her approach toward such conduct.

3. drummaster:You are of course correct. Chotiner is as no "gant" to Hanson's elephant. He is as a "gnat." But talk about self satisfied ad hominem. I point out something I find petty and pissy in Chotiner's comment and you have me as a "Beauchamp-bashing rightie", which I am not, a "malingerer", which I hope I am not, a "polluter", which I trust I am not, and a leaver of droppings, which I like to think I do not do and entirely unwelcome hereabouts. All of that because of what: I did not toe the line of some divinely- ordained agenda that is a criterion for who gets to say acceptably what here? Drummaster give me a break.

I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Iran curtailed its nuclear weapons program in 2003 out of fear of US military reaction. Fear is a strong motivator.  It would worry me more that the US were no longer feared than no longer loved.

once more:

Of gants and elephants:

Chotiner:

"No, I didn't mistype that and insert extra commas--it's verbatim"

Hanson:

Warfare and Agriculture in Classical Greece. University of California Press, 1983. ISBN 0-520-21025-5

The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece. Alfred A. Knopf, 1989. ISBN 0-394-57188-6

Hoplites: The Classical Greek Battle Experience, editor, Routledge, 1991. ISBN 0-415-04148-1

The Other Greeks: The Family Farm and the Agrarian Roots of Western Civilization, Free Press, 1995. ISBN 0-02-913751-9

Fields Without Dreams: Defending the Agrarian Idea, Free Press, 1996. ISBN 0-684-82299-7

Who Killed Homer?: The Demise of Classical Education and the Recovery of Greek Wisdom, with John Heath, Free Press, 1998. ISBN 0-684-84453-2

The Soul of Battle: From Ancient Times to the Present Day, How Three Great Liberators Vanquished Tyranny, Free Press, 1999. ISBN 0-684-84502-4

The Wars of the Ancient Greeks: And the Invention of Western Military Culture, Cassell, 1999. ISBN 0-304-35222-5

The Land Was Everything: Letters from an American Farmer, Free Press, 2000. ISBN 0-684-84501-6

Bonfire of the Humanities: Rescuing the Classics in an Impoverished Age, with John Heath and Bruce S. Thornton, ISI Books, 2001. ISBN 1-882926-54-4

Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power, Doubleday, 2001. ISBN 0-385-50052-1

Published in the UK as Why the West Has Won: Carnage and Culture from Salamis to Vietnam, Faber, 2001. ISBN 0-571-20417-1

An Autumn of War: What America Learned from September 11 and the War on Terrorism, Anchor Books, 2002. ISBN 1-4000-3113-3

A collection of essays, mostly from National Review, covering events occurring between September 11, 2001 and January 2002

Mexifornia: A State of Becoming, Encounter Books, 2003. ISBN 1-893554-73-2

Ripples of Battle: How Wars Fought Long Ago Still Determine How We Fight, How We Live, and How We Think, Doubleday, 2003. ISBN 0-385-50400-4

Between War and Peace: Lessons from Afghanistan and Iraq, Random House, 2004. ISBN 0-8129-7273-2

A collection of essays, mostly from National Review, covering events occurring between January 2002 and July 2003

A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War, Random House, 2005. ISBN 1-4000-6095-8

How embarrasing: make that "gnat" not "gant". What is a "gant" anyway?

basman, Hanson lost all credibility with me when he said Rumsfeld, after Abu Ghraib and in his defense, was the greatest defense secretary of all time. I read National Review often as well and he has been consistently wrong about Iraq. For a writer who specializes in war it was not the best thing to be. I am not sure if you are aware but TNR has published his pieces as well. I had no problem with this but with Iraq he became much to invested in the actors to come close to being objective or even useful.

As to his contention: Are they now to suggest that Republicans have been warmongering over a nonexistent threat for partisan purposes?  You know the answer is yes, and I will give him credit for so concisely asking that question. Cheney wanted to keep the NIE secret.

and drummaster was way off about you. master you gotta read other peoples posts before you make blanket statements about them. Basman is a Hillary supporter for goodness sake. He need not explain his creds to anyone here.

Thanks Blackton: when time permits I'll try to answer you a bit about Hanson.

drummaster: I just out of morbid and masochistic impulses relooked at your mini rant and had an epiphany: you are a knee jerk.

basman, though I often disagree with you, you are far from a malingerer.   I might call you a "gant", though, which seems harmless enough.