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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
25.10.2007
Laws Are for Other People

Whether he intended to or not, at a town meeting in Iowa last night Rudy Giuliani offered what may be the most honest defense of torture I've seen from an American politician. It is also, of course, a deeply immoral one. Asked whether waterboarding constituted torture, he replied:

It depends on how it’s done. It depends on the circumstances. It depends on who does it. [emphasis mine]

What the United States is doing isn't torture because it's the United States doing it. I suspect this is the way a lot of torture apologists feel, but give Giuliani credit for being (I think) the first to come out and say it.

--Christopher Orr

Update: I see the ever-nimble Alex Massie beat me to exactly this point.

Update Update: This post has been widely linked to (thanks, Andrew), and more than a few people have missed that the praise I  offer Giuliani is entirely ironic. The key word here is not "honest" or "credit," but "immoral."

Posted: Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:18 PM with 45 comment(s)

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teplukhin2you said:

Rudy will blow up Rudy's candidacy. Just keep listening to Old Man Podhoretz, Rudy. That's the ticket.

October 25, 2007 2:39 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Hey, what happened to the avatars?? That was really the only feature of the new new tnr that I actually liked...

October 25, 2007 2:49 PM

purcellneil said:

Ask Rudy -- he'll probably admit that "family values" are for other people too.

.

October 25, 2007 2:53 PM

epackard-02 said:

If we need to trust the President and his decision of what acts constitute torture, then it seems reasonable to me that the President should have to be one actually conducting the interrogation and performing the acts.

October 25, 2007 2:59 PM

epackard-02 said:

Cookie ...

I think regarding the avatars, they were going to find a way to remove the "spooky"-looking ones.

Surely they realize they could just change the default image from the shadow man to -- say -- a George Bush dart board.

October 25, 2007 3:00 PM

Stress » Il Duce Giuliani Has Decided Waterboarding is Torture said:

Pingback from  Stress » Il Duce Giuliani Has Decided Waterboarding is Torture

October 25, 2007 3:03 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

Off topic post moderator (look away now)

Got around to messing around with the profile thingy. Can somebody explain the friends, fans and assorted bits to me and do you have to click the remember me check box everytime.

I would have thought a simple spell check function could have been incorporated into the site.

October 25, 2007 3:08 PM

luispc said:

Hey John!

I'm trying to start a revolt against the TNR renewal. With little success, I must say, although with a great effort. Although I sense wide dicontentment (even in, guess who, Martin Peretz) few seem to understand that what happened was a cold blooded murder.

And have you noticed the insults? The "stay clean" and "on the subject"? The lapsus of time before the posts and their appearence?

Join the revolt! WE WANT TNR BACK!

October 25, 2007 3:16 PM

luispc said:

And not only this is all very insulting, it is also creating misunderstandings amongst friends. I "added" you as a friend, but I do not show on your page. Another reason for violent anger!

October 25, 2007 3:18 PM

luispc said:

If this revolt doesn't work, I suggest we all move to purceneill's blog and call it our new home! At least we are not insulted and comments are not censored!

October 25, 2007 3:19 PM

tnr1.com said:

luispc

For goodness sake, chill out. There are (obviously) any number of glitches with the new redesign, which was basically built for us by our (semi-)new owner CanWest. There are many features we didn't ask for built in. Some (like the obscenity filter) have already been removed; others will be.

But for the record (again): the "insulting" disclaimer about "keeping it clean, etc, etc" was just part of the initial package we were given; it wasn't directed at Plankers in any way. Also NO ONE is moderating or censoring posts anywhere on the site. The way comments on feature stories are set up, however, comments need to be "okay'd" on this end to go up. They're being okayed as fast as possible but there will be times (say, overnight) when they may pile up for hours. Again, this is not a feature we asked for or want, and just as soon as we can get it removed, we will.

In the meantime, please take a deep breath and stop being "insulted" by these admittedly annoying features, which were and are unwanted and are in no way a commentary on how TNR views the Plank.

Thanks,

Chris Orr

October 25, 2007 3:37 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

Luis, how are you my friend.

Hopefully, the thesis is going well.

I do prefer the old site but the new functionality has its potential. Didn't know Neil had a blog, cool, I'll check it out. That's a positive thing in its own right, finding out about posters blogs.

I still have to get around to linking to friends and fans and whatever.

Give it some time Luis, it will take a bit of getting use too. Not impressed with the fact that non-subs can post though. Could they post on the old site?

October 25, 2007 3:37 PM

luispc said:

Chris Orr

Hey! Hey! I'm not really serious!!!!!

Although I tripple hate the new design (it's insulting remarks...and censorship suggestions...even if brought with the package...it's childish features...it's counter-intuitive difficulty...it's non authomathic publication of posts that damages every possibility of conversation...it's aggressive, unfamiliar design, etc., etc., etc.)...

...and I wished you brought back the old site...

...or at least something similar...

...this would not be the cause for me to loose temper!

I'm rather staging an hiperbolic reaction!

So no need to "chill out", even if I thank your worries.

SO, REVOLT EVERYONE! BRING BACK TNR!

October 25, 2007 3:51 PM

luispc said:

Give it some time Luis, it will take a bit of getting use too. Not impressed with the fact that non-subs can post though. Could they post on the old site?

If they can post, perhaps this is the only good thing about all this mess. I'm always for democratic solutions!

PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER!

REVOLT! BRING BACK TNR!

October 25, 2007 3:53 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Dear Chris Orr,

Ye of exquisite film taste....would you be willing to...get back those avatars?  I had all kinds of great schemes.  I was going to post a different picture every few days, some of me, some of my interests and look alikes (Rondo Hatton was coming soon)

I think friend luis just needs to blow off some long building dissertation steam.  No harm, no foul...

What do you say Chris? If you can pull it off, next time you come to SF, I'll comp you a ticket to go see something good at the Castro Theater.

KG

October 25, 2007 4:24 PM

tnr1.com said:

Cookie,

Thanks for the kind words. Personally, I'm not  fan of the avatars, so I think I'll sit this one out. But I have many happy memories of the Castro theatre from my years in SF ('93-'96), chief among them seeing The Umbrellas of Cherbourg there for the first time. I know they used to try to show it every year; if you haven't seen it, there's no better place to.

Chris

October 25, 2007 4:46 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Chris,

Good memory.  My fondest is going to see that 1980's movie that was scored by Phillip Glass - was it that movie with the long name starting with a K? - and after the movie, be bopping over to Marcelo's pizza for a slice....and running into Gene Siskel, standing in front of me in line.  Being a jaunty sociable feller, I started up a conversation and we chatted while snarfing thin crust.  Afterwards, he went his way, I went mine. Two ships, one could say.

KG aka Cookie

October 25, 2007 4:54 PM

ndmackenzie said:

luispc -

I would say there is almost zero chance of going back to the original design - so you might as well get used to what there is. However, it is also clear that someone is working quite diligently to fix a lot of the problems people have noticed.  Since site development is happening now I suspect the most effective way you can influence change, within the new architecture, is to politely point out functionality you believe should be fixed.  I have noticed many bug fixes since Monday of things commentators pointed out. There is no point in beating up on the TNR staff because they are eating the same dogfood we get.

October 25, 2007 5:11 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Oh Chris,

I always take my boys to see BIG movies at the Castro.  We have seen Citizen Kane, West Side Story, Casablanca, North By Northwest, Giant, Shane, Gentlemen Prefer Blonds, The Godfather, Sound of Music, The Wizard of Oz, just to name a few.  

They have fond memories of that place and we always go out to dinner before and dine with friends then go over to the Castro.  We go to all their sing a longs.  

When I croak, I sense that they will always remember their dad as the movie dad...:)

October 25, 2007 5:14 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Oh Chris,

I always take my boys to see BIG movies at the Castro.  We have seen Citizen Kane, West Side Story, Casablanca, North By Northwest, Giant, Shane, Gentlemen Prefer Blonds, The Godfather, Sound of Music, The Wizard of Oz, just to name a few.  

They have fond memories of that place and we always go out to dinner before and dine with friends then go over to the Castro.  We go to all their sing a longs.  

When I croak, I sense that they will always remember their dad as the movie dad...:)

October 25, 2007 5:14 PM

boneill said:

Yeah, this "friends" thing is wierd.   I haven't picked anyone yet, though not out of personal feelings- some of you I feel I know better than family- but because I am horrified of being rejected.  It is like high school all over again.  

October 25, 2007 5:27 PM

drdannyu said:

Oh where, oh where has my avatar gone?

Oh where, oh where can he beeeee?

He's a dreamy guy

That I SWEAR is me,

Oh where, oh where can he beeeee?

October 25, 2007 5:34 PM

drdannyu said:

bone -- If I can "friend" you looking like THAT, I think a little reciprocation is in order, no?

October 25, 2007 5:35 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

I'm not having Bone on my team.

God damn it. Do I have to take Bone?

What there's no one left. F*cks sake.

J*sus, get to the back Bone and don't do anything alright, just...just stand there, all right, just stand there.

October 25, 2007 5:45 PM

teplukhin2you said:

Luis - acalmar-se, companheiro.

TNR's not a cheap date. It's a long-term relationship, and you have to be patient and ride out the rough spots.

That said, TNR pls bring back the avatars. Like Mr Cookie I too had a stable of personalities I wanted to revolve through my avatars. Van Eyck this week, Bronzino next, Velasquez the week following...

October 25, 2007 5:57 PM

The Ignorant Populist said:

Anybody else get a laugh out of Blacks interests?

October 25, 2007 5:59 PM

blackton said:

Chris, my only beef is with letting non subs post. Why the hell are we paying money for then. Frankly, I only read the internet version, and if that is free what is the point of my paying. I just don't want the paying customers to get drowned out by the nonpaying riff raff. It is bad enough we have to put up with Bone, adamvaught, and ratnerstar, imagine page after page of that type.

As to the original, I also like the line "how it is done" if waterboarding is done right, it is torture, if done wrong it is like bobbing for apples.

My new nickname for Guiliani is granny.

October 25, 2007 6:02 PM

blackton said:

I put bone, adamvaught, and ratnerstar on my official enemies list.

thanks Iggy, but drdannyu's bio is the best. It is really wonderful.

October 25, 2007 6:07 PM

mrcookie1 said:

Iggy Pop,

dang, you've got that script down pat...I can almost see poor bone, knobby knees, oversized gym shorts, and hang dog look, eeling his way into the back of your line.  

God, middle school was hell....

KG

teppy - I had Rondo Hatton, Monty Clift, Basil Rathbone, Eddie Cochran, and Chill Wills ready to go...

man, that smarts....

October 25, 2007 6:11 PM

drdannyu said:

Iggy, Blackie's whole profile is hysterical.  You did note his age, I trust?

October 25, 2007 6:15 PM

williamyard said:

MrCookie, Chris Orr: hopefully y'all have been at the Castro when they've cranked up the Mighty Wurlitzer.

Re: avatars.  If they bring them back, can we have, say, a stable of avatars, maybe one per blog? So I can have, like, Annabel Chong for the Plank, JonBenet Ramsey for Open University, Max Cleland for the Stump (Get it? Max Cleland! Stump! Man, I crack myself up!), and Yassir Arafat for the Spine?

Re: bios and what not. I haven't contributed one yet but, I must admit, just the thought gets my ego to throbbin' like Little Willie on the way to the Mitchell Brothers with a wallet full of lap dance grease.

October 25, 2007 7:37 PM

adamvaught said:

Oh, Blackton; did you just put the wrong guy on your enemies list.

October 25, 2007 10:54 PM

adaglas said:

Hell I'm on board.  You're all going on my enemies list, right next to Jane Fonda, J. Edgar Hoover, the Jews....wait a minute, this isn't mine.  Okay, which one of you stole my enemies list?  Just go ahead and put your name at the bottom.

October 25, 2007 11:29 PM

adamvaught said:

Similar to Abraham Lincoln, adamvaught is a lawyer in Springfield known to be over six-feet tall, not particularly attractive, and hated by southerners. While adamvaught will probably never save an entire people from slavery, he's pretty sure he can get shot watching a crappy play. That's why he only watches movies.

October 25, 2007 11:45 PM

adamvaught said:

Alright. That was supposed to by my bio. This new tnr is screwing me up.

October 25, 2007 11:46 PM

adaglas said:

Bet Abe never misposted on any of his blogs.  Just sayin'.

October 25, 2007 11:54 PM

adamvaught said:

adaglas,

Probably. But if he'd had a blog, a non-subscriber would have told him this:

"'Four score and seven years ago?' Jesus, you wordy bastard; just say 'Eighty-seven years ago'; oh, and add 'we're invading Iraq, torture rules, fuck the constitution'" and then go back to Washington for a run on the treadmill. I don't get why you don't think this job is hard. GWB."

October 26, 2007 12:14 AM

adamvaught said:

Or "I don't get why you think this job is hard."

October 26, 2007 12:15 AM

luispc said:

NO I WONT CALM DOWN! I JUST WON'T. THIS IS ALL TOO HORRIBLE!

And today the article on the French that I was intending to read this morning simply vanished.

BRING BACK TNR!!!!!

October 26, 2007 2:42 AM

luispc said:

And since this all so childish and stupid, why don't you add a section of "my enemies" or "people that I hate"?

October 26, 2007 2:44 AM

luispc said:

Oh yes, of course, how! You're the devil! And from what I can understand: A DUMB DEVIL!

October 26, 2007 2:50 AM

luispc said:

On my "public profile", you can add a section "I don't know you yet but I hate you already"!

October 26, 2007 3:02 AM

luispc said:

I'll repeat here that until this dementia is over - for instance, this turn of TNR into a KINDERGARDEN in which there are "friends", "fans" and others (isn't this site already transformed into the laughingstock of all serious people?) - I'll add every single poster as my friend!

LET'S PLAY, SINCE WE ARE ALL IN KINDERGARDEN!

AND JOHN, THE ONLY POSSIBLE REDEMPTION FOR YOU is to move my avatar to your "public profile" and express there that you kiss the floor in which I walk on!

October 26, 2007 6:04 AM

luispc said:

And if I forgotten to insert someone amongst my friends, please remember me and I'll do it right away!

October 26, 2007 6:52 AM

Robert Powell said:

I thought water-boarding was a Beach Boys hobby.

Luis, the French article didn't disappear. You have to click "more" at the bottom to go to the list of older postings. And the type gets larger if you punch Ctrl +.

I'm simply not sufficiently endowed with technical knowledge and time/interest to engage in all the avatar/friends/enemies stuff. I did select a nice Bullwinkle avatar, but it like the other stuff seemed to disappear and I just don't have the time to fool with it any more. I trust we'll eventually figure this out, and I don't mind the open posting. I already know pretty much who to read carefully and who to scan through, and agree with Luis that we have nothing to fear from more democracy.

November 1, 2007 5:15 AM