The Flack - All Comments

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

basman — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:42:35 GMT

Wandrey, thanks. If you are still glancing at this thread from time to time check this out regarding Hillary at state: bloggingheads.tv/.../16085

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

mcgumbleton — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:22:44 GMT

The fact that the number of death threats against Obama and his family increased exponentially after Palin joined the campaign with her hateful rhetoric insiting the hateful right wing masses is a pretty good indication that McCain-Palln did not run an honorable campaign and are not worthy of sympathy.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

Wandreycer1 — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:55:30 GMT

What a great thing to see from you Itzik.

I'm continually impressed and humbled by the journey that so many Hillary supporters have taken, with great humility and courage, towards supporting Obama's message and his candidacy. I've said several times that I regret my emotionality during the primaries and that I said things I deeply regret - I learned a great deal from that. I take inspiration from Hillary folk who are able to move forward from those days with such class. I hope some day I can emulate this process I see.

I am pulling for Hillary at State and think she would be a superb Sec of State, we'd be lucky to have her. I know she values her independence, as she should, but to me she's a bit wasted in the Senate at this time in history. Her knowledge of domestic issues is unparalleled, but the world needs to see as much American star power and excellence as possible and she exudes both. Please Senator C! Please take it!

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

basman — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:16:18 GMT

Scrubs, thanks for the welcome. It's obviously intruiging to see Obama contemplate Hillary for State. I'm waiting for either a clear go or no go on that before, either way, I have word or two for the over the top Hillary haters, like Peretz, not that Obama gives 3 seconds of thought to him save where he's courting Peretz's consituency, as even Obama's consideration of Hillary, choice of her nor not, repudiates the haters in their face.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

scrubbyoak — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:59:14 GMT

"It tracks some of my own shift in attitude and errors in thinking about Obama.

I like him more every day."

Welcome to the club, Itzik. I always wondered when you'd see what some of us saw in Obama. Some of us, that is, who liked Hillary but never quite trusted her, and also, respected McCain but terribly disappointed in his very divisive, dishonest and mean-spirited campaign.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

basman — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:45:18 GMT

...Let's be careful not to condone them - or even to forget them - in a spirit of fraternal equanimity...

Neil, you make some good points, but I think you are wrong when you speak of "fraternal equanimity" as if for its won sake. Rather, Obama and Wolfson, others, who are kind of saying "all is forgiven, come home" are making a hard headed political claculation. Rather than being grievance mongers, and rather than maintaining the yawning, perpetual red/blue divide, they are trying to build as much of a bridge as possible to somewhere.

And if after such a tough partisan fight, Obama conveys equanimity, then he is living proof of his attempt at post partisan politics, (which I interpret as himtrying to take out the opposition with a new and prevasive majoritarian governing coaltion). You should follow Glenn Loury's conversion from being a Hillary supporting, post partisan, good faith negotaiting, doubter to a kind of measured and nuanced believer and hoper. It tracks some of my own shift in attitude and errors in thinking about Obama.

I like him more every day.

Itzik

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

purcellneil — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:58:55 GMT

Wandrey is right, and basman is half-right.

Wolfson is indeed making Obama-like sounds in reaching out to embrace the defeated rival's team, but what these people did during the campaign was very much in contradiction of the Obama approach. Obama was tarred as a pal of terrorists, a Muslim foreigner who faked his birth certificate so he could destroy America from within, a socialist and black nationalist who planned to tax white plumbers and transfer their wealth to their black neighbors...this is what the McCain-Palin team stirred up across America - there is no denying that this bile flowed with at least the tacit approval of Schmidt and, therefore, McCain.

Obama might approve of Wolfson's friendly gesture, but he certainly would not condone the tactics of the McCain campaign. Let's be careful not to condone them - or even to forget them - in a spirit of fraternal equanimity.

Neil

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

Nusholtz — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:55:19 GMT

I don't feel sorry for the McCain advisors either. When I look at the McCain campaign, like other campaigns, I think of those movies that bomb in spite of all that high priced talent and after spending millions and millions of dollars. I wonder how the movie makers could not know what they were doing would stink. Are the McCain campaign advisers like avant garde artists who will be appreciated over time? I hope not.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

jacksondyer — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 00:42:09 GMT

" As a moderate I would love them to go back to having room for reasonable Republicans, fiscally conservative, competent, etc. instead of xenophobic and jingoistic. We need two parties." Blackton

Very well put.

I fear that the Republican party as it stands is beyond repair. Too many extreme libertarians in its ranks. They remind me of the Boshevik true believers who never learn anything and never forget anything.

McCain was too good for them.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

basman — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 20:35:36 GMT

There is, sort of arguing against myself, another distinction between boxing and poltical campaigning, even though they are both arts not sciences. The rules in boxing are fairly clear and commonly understood. And the rules in campaigning are what?

...By any historical measure, we have witnessed one of the most honourable campaigns in the history of the country. Against that context, and against the context of Obama's overarching message, snarking about the McCain campaign is petty, small, and unbecoming...

This seems wise to me and says better than I what I said before here.

...But I'm not even thinking of McCain's crimes against Obama, but of his crimes against the country with his pick of Palin as vp...

I know you are speaking here metaphorically, but as a lawyer you should be sensitive as to how inapt, imprecise and over the top are your plaints. My non-legal advice, and free at that: give all the righteous indignation a rest, enjoy your new president and spend your energy helping him along. You are, after all, who you have been waiting for.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

blackton — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:21:51 GMT

Pete Beck, it is fine to disagree with me, but dead wrong is a bit harsh, don't you think? Ha.

Hitting below the belt is what fighters do in desperate situations, it comes with the game, if you get away with it it improves your chance of winning, but mostly it just means you lose by more points than your otherwise would have. That is what happened to McCain. If he ran a clean, straight up campaign he probably would have lost by less, but would not have come close to winning, hence the low blows.

As I said, the only truly unforgivable thing the McCain campaign did is to give that narcissistic nitwit national exposure. A lot of Dems want her to get the nod in 2012 just so Obama can crush her. I don't want her to have even the slightest hypothetical chance she can be President, and because of this I want the Republicans to nominate someone who, if they win, won't make me want to flee the country (although, not being in the Country this is more of a figurative statement)

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

phargle — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:10:34 GMT

Huh. Maybe I am in the minority, and maybe I am horribly mistaken. The mood here seems to be like the aftermath of a revolution, or a vindictive war crimes tribunal. Does everybody really think that the proper course of action after a campaign like this, in the context of Obama's win, is to pillory those who supported Obama's opponent in ways we find distasteful? That's really sad, but if anybody is handing out pitchforks, I'll take one. I don't want any Robespierres to mistake me for the enemy. . .

I also take back my comment about the Obama campaign achieving new lows in taking words out of context. Of course, I never would dare hint that the Obama campaign did anything untoward. What really occured was that they re-arranged their opponents' words to mean what they really meant, instead of what their previous words and record (both of which were obviously false) indicated, which is totally reasonable, in my TNR-reader sanctioned opinion. Now let's all get back to burning more McCain supporters.

Seriously, people. I'm a history kinda guy. I gots me a history degree from a university. By any historical measure, we have witnessed one of the most honourable campaigns in the history of the country. Against that context, and against the context of Obama's overarching message, snarking about the McCain campaign is petty, small, and unbecoming.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

psantillana — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:46:40 GMT

phargle, the sex-ed ad alone was a billion times worse than the 100 years thing. And the 100 years remark really did deserve derision, but of a different nature, at worst. McCain was disingenuous, I believe, because the idea that he meant a peaceful military bases such as what we have in Germany, with our ALLIES, makes no sense in the context of the question, which was clearly asking how long this effing war was going to last.

But I'm not even thinking of McCain's crimes against Obama, but of his crimes against the country with his pick of Palin as vp. For this he should be pilloried. And every jackass on his campaign who took part in this scam. Thanks to Katie Couric and Charlie Gibson and the economic crisis, this horror never came to pass, but it was not for lack of their trying.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

basman — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:38:11 GMT

...The McCain crowd debased the campaign ...

Politics is a mug's game. Don't be so sensitive. This campaign was no more debased than previous ones and won't be more debased than ones to comes. And for the forseeable future forget about publicly financed politics and hence bringing some relative sanilty to your electoral processes. Greatest show on earth though.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

psantillana — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:38:02 GMT

And I'm all for being polite, but that's a different issue. The wrongness of what they did deserves censure. Massive censure, and from the press. Not from paid flacks, who are not motivated by right and wrong, and should be banned from the press unless they report truthfully on every last lie and spin they ever bleated to the world.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

psantillana — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:33:15 GMT

Wrong. Boxing is a game. The whole reason I hate Howard Wolfson and his ilk on both sides is that to them this is a game. It's not a game. They did something wrong. They didn't just "lose". They should be hung upside down in the public square, like Mussolini was, as should you. Figuratively, but still, absolutely.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

phargle — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:31:56 GMT

re: PeteBeck, but what constitutes hittinb below the belt? As a McCain supporter and as one who has lived overseas due to my family being stationed in Germany, Italy, and England, I was appalled by Obama's willfully stupid misuse of McCain's "100 years in Iraq" line. You know and I know that Obama knows better, and you know and I know that Obama intentionally misused the line to suggest that McCain meant a hundred years of war because Obama wanted to improve his standing among anti-war folks. Should we hold him accountable for lowering the political discourse by intentionally being far, far less intelligent than he really is just so he could score points?

Should we hold him accountable for the truly excrecable Spanish-language ad on immigration that took taking words out of context to a whole new level unseen in presidential politics before?

I think you're being overly angry, and overly unsportsmanlike. I'll agree that there's a line, but McCain got nowhere near it. Both men ran, by any historical standards, honourable campaigns. If you want to hate on someone, hate on Elizabeth Dole.

In any case, Obama's message is one of reconciliation, unity, and a new tone. He calls McCain a great and honorable American too. I support my new president - for whom I did not vote in the general, although I considered it at the end - and look forward to him being successful. I'm proud to have him as my president.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

PeteBeck — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:12:40 GMT

I have no sympathy.

Presidential politics is not just a high school sport where everyone smiles and shakes hands when the game is over. The McCain crowd debased the campaign and the public conversation. Much of their bad work will survive their defeat. Instead of a pat on the back, they should be encouraged to slither off into the woods, never to be seen again. In short, the essence of democracy is accountability -- which means that bad guys are in some way punished, not praised -- and that repeat performances of what we saw in the McCain campaign are to be discouraged by the example of their punishment.

Blackton is dead wrong -- yes, in boxing you fight hard to win, but you also abide by the rules, one of which is to not hit below the belt. If you repeatedly hit below the belt you lose and are disgraced, period.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

basman — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:44:12 GMT

I'm with Wolfson and Blackton on this one.

Wolfson's perspective here is very Obamian.

re: Sympathy for the McCainiacs

phargle — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:26:23 GMT

Several years ago, I stopped being a good Democrat because I couldn't abide the negativeness. Democrats were very negative and hostile in defeat, and it bothered me. Now I see that they are negative and hostile in victory, too. I suppose the Republicans have their negative and hostile voters too, but I don't have to apologize for them because I am not a Republican. And Republican opinion-formers have been absolutely gracious at NRO, with the exception of the singularly curmudgeonly John Derbyshire, who it is hard to take seriously at some junctures.

Thank you for posting this, Mr. Wolfson. This is the part of the game where we need to cross the court and shake hands, even if we think we were playing against John McEnroe - and most of that belief is based on caricature, not reality. Please, Democrats - let's leave the unhinged anger to the other side. Remember that Obama called us to something better than what is being demonstrated in this thread. It's one of the messages that resonated with me, and it's the reason he earned my vote in the primary.