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COLUMNISTS
TODAY'S STORIES
02.05.2008
Krugman's Misleading Attack on Barack Obama

Reasonable people are making reasonable arguments for and against Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain. But in a recent column attacking Barack Obama, Paul Krugman has lost his bearings.

Krugman objects to Obama's suggestion, on Fox News, that he accepts the Republican claim that regulation should take the form of tradable emissions permits rather "top-down command and control." Krugman says that Obama is "giving Republicans credit for good ideas they never had."

Here is what Obama actually said:

"I think that back in the '60s and '70s a lot of the way we regulated industry was top-down command and control, we're going to tell businesses exactly how to do things. And you know, I think that the Republican Party and people who thought about the markets came up with the notion that, 'You know what? If you simply set some guidelines, some rules and incentives, for businesses--let them figure out how they're going to, for example, reduce pollution,' and a cap and trade system, for example is a smarter way of doing it, controlling pollution, than dictating every single rule that a company has to abide by, which creates a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and oftentimes is less efficient."

Krugman objects, "Mr. Obama's answer was puzzling because he gave credit where it isn't due."

Actually Obama had it right. As Harvard's Robert Stavins, a long-time participant in the relevant debates and perhaps the world's leading expert on what actually happened, wrote me, "I think I know the history and provenance of U.S. of cap-and-trade and emission-reduction-credit systems relatively well, and Krugman's column is exceptionally misleading."

The major emissions trading program in federal law, enacted in 1990 and focused on acid deposition, was developed under Bush 41, in the White House no less (under the leadership of C. Boyden Gray, an influential Republican and a pioneering figure, in political circles, with respect to emissions trading). The law was pushed through an initially skeptical Democratic-controlled Congress. The pivotal role of the Bush White House has been carefully documented in books and articles. (See, for example, A. Denny Ellerman et al., Markets for Clean Air.)

The several early emissions trading systems, adopted in the 1970s, were established in Republican administrations (Nixon/Ford), with significant opposition from Democrats (and environmental organizations). The trading program for lead in gasoline was also adopted under a Republican president (Reagan).

Krugman is quite right to say that the Reagan administration resisted a regulatory response to acid deposition (a point that is irrelevant to Obama's claims). He is also right to say that economists of all stripes supported tradable permit systems by 1990. But in the political domain (which was clearly the topic), Obama was correct to say that such systems have come from Republicans. As Robert Stavins writes, "the history is what it is, and unfortuately Krugman has misled his readers in order to score some political points."

There is a more general point here. Krugman wants Democrats to attack Republicans and to call them "the party of denial," rather than to give them credit for good ideas. But where credit is due, it is not exactly terrible to give credit.

--Cass Sunstein

Posted: Friday, May 02, 2008 5:26 PM with 34 comment(s)

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jacobt1 said:

"Reasonable people are making reasonable arguments for and against Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain. "

I don't tink that Obama cultists accept any arguments  against Barack Obama as "reasonable ".

Any argument  against Barack Obama is  a  "Misleading Attack" .

May 2, 2008 10:41 PM

three putt said:

so jacobtl:  tell what is reasonable about Krugman's attack please.

May 2, 2008 11:00 PM

jacobt1 said:

three putt,

1.It was not an attack.

2. Tewll as about any argument  against Barack Obama that you consider reasonable.

May 2, 2008 11:50 PM

Annabella2 said:

The history is what the history is... it is utterly pointless to attack Obama as having been incorrect when he was in fact correct on the facts.  Haven't we all noticed that Krugman is awfully pissy about Obama generally and very reluctant to give him any credit for ideas, even when Krugman actually agrees with him, for instance in the issue of the gas tax moratorium.  In fact it is often very hard to figure out lately what Krugman's argument is other than being pissy.  Would that he would give it a rest since it undercuts whatever effectiveness he might otherwise have... one just begins to tune him out as crotchey

And Jacob is there anything that Obama puts forth as a policy position or an argument that you in any way consider reasonable?  OOOPs... I've probably just laid myself open to a stream of vituperation.

May 3, 2008 1:48 AM

jacobt1 said:

Annabella2,

Most of Obama  policy positions are reasonable. It doesn't mean that I agree with them.

This is not the issue, The issue is if Obama cultists can accept  any argument  against Barack Obama as reasonable.

If you you don't accept Krugaman as a reasonable critic of Obama, who is?

Let me expain to you that you don't have to agree with such  critic , you just have accept him/her as reasonable.

I understand that for Ibama cutists, it’s very hard  to comprehend. a concept of diversity of opinions

I really like this:

www.liberalrapture.com/.../poisonous-campaign-of-barack-obama.html

"Finally, when all is said and done - it is his lunatic supporters I fear most. We have gotten a small taste of that happy mob turning ugly this week. Imagine what they'd do with a President Obama (lol) stranded between his own rhetoric and reality."

May 3, 2008 2:25 AM

jacobt1 said:

I like this too:

www.slate.com/.../2190378

One key to the movement's lack of popularity, Orwell argues, is its supporters. "As with the Christian religion," he writes, "the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents." Then he wheels out the heavy rhetorical artillery. The typical socialist, according to Orwell, "is either a youthful snob-Bolshevik who in five years time will quite probably have made a wealthy marriage and been converted to Roman Catholicism, or, still more typically, a prim little man with a white-collar job, usually a secret teetotaler, and often with vegetarian leanings … with a social position he has no intention of forfeiting. … One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words 'Socialism' and 'Communism' draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, 'Nature Cure' quack, pacifist and feminist in England." (Think "organic food lover," "militant nonsmoker," and "environmentalist with a private jet" for a more contemporary list.)

May 3, 2008 2:28 AM

roidubouloi said:

Jacobt

I think you make in excellent point there.  A good piece of Hillary Clinton's sky-high unpopularity is definitely due to her "adherents," such as yourself.  The mere mention of her name seems to draw with magnetic force everyone with a sense of entitlement, that they and she are owed the nomination and the presidency.  It may not be true, for example, that Hillary felt herself entitled to the nomination.  But her adherents, such as yourself, plainly do and many people don't see any difference between your sense of entitlement and hers.  A lot of people find that sense of entitlement repellent.  The funny thing is, they turned out to be the majority.

How about that?

May 3, 2008 8:02 AM

timteeter said:

Let's see.  Obama was my third choice (after Al Gore, who didn't run, and Joe Biden, who did).  But I'm a cultist?

Hmmm . . .

The first response by Jacob1 is to complain about the complaint, without discussing it's merits in any way.

The second response is to attach an emotive label to the supporters of the man he opposes, still with no discussion of the merits of the complaint that is the topic of the post.

The third is to refer to a bizarre citation of Orwell, whose relevance is . . . well, what, exactly?  That Obama supporters are bourgeois vegetarians?  Snobbish socialists?  (Is this some sort of definition of "cultist"?  If so, then I suggest you get a dictionary.) And this is connected to the history of cap-and-trade, um, well, how?

May 3, 2008 9:03 AM

odanuki1 said:

Jacob -

You're not helping yourself, or your candidate.  You can't really position yourself as the reasonable party when you make ad hominem attacks against the other guy's supporters.  I mean, do you really think anyone's going to listen to you right after you call them a 'cultist'?

May 3, 2008 12:07 PM

scrubbyoak said:

jacobt believes that Obama is  reasonable, and a fine candidate. It's the hero-worship and cultist mentality of Obama supporters that he finds objectionable.

He also believes that Hillary Clinton supporters are deep thinkers, well reasoned, very objective and magnanimous. Right, jake?

May 3, 2008 12:08 PM

eharder2 said:

Labeling supporters of a candidate as cultist is always a good way to stimulate reasoned debate.  Gold star to all commenters who fit that bill.  

Anyways, WTF is up with Krugman vis-a-vis Obama.  I understand that economics is the dismal science but Krugman's take on this political season is all dismal and no science.  It's worse then reading right wing hacks demagogue, since Krugman in all likelihood is smart enough to know better.        

May 3, 2008 8:38 PM

blackton said:

this guy jacob has got to be a brilliant satirist, nobody could be so obviously obtuse and still manage to find TNR on the internet (oops internets)

He has not addressed the post because I doubt he even read the posting instead choosing to create a completely pointless diversion.

annabella was right, Krugman said he agreed with Obama, but himself felt compelled to go off topic with regards to UHC, which showed that Krugman himself is a little unhinged when it comes to him.

jacob, try to focus and address the thread, otherwise you simply subject yourself to mockery.

for the love of God, why are there so few bright Clinton supporters at TNR?

May 3, 2008 9:19 PM

zaiquiri said:

"It's the hero-worship and cultist mentality of Obama supporters that he finds objectionable."

In other words, he's taking whacks at a straw man.  One or two more and he'll have pretty much all the logical fallacies covered.

Fact is, I support Obama, though I do think he has his flaws and he's not the perfect candidate.  I still believe he's a better prospect to run the country than Hillary.  His legislative record in the senate, for starters, is vastly superior (I believe the library of congress factual record clearly shows this), and shows greater foresight, creativity, and judgement.

As a by the way, since one need find only one counterexample to disprove a positive assertion, and I am an Obama supporter who is not a cultist...

Unless of course, someone wants to pipe in and try to claim that he's not objecting specifically to me, but only to the Obama supporters who -are- cultists.  Which would beg the question, what's the definition of an Obama cultist?

Perhaps it's what jacobtl already said: "someone who doesn't accept any arguments against Barack Obama as reasonable."  

Oooops.  That's not circular reasoning, is it?

May 3, 2008 9:45 PM

alittleblackegg said:

Ditto on eharder2, zaiquiri, et al.

The idea of "Obama cultists" is offensive on so many levels. God forbid anyone actually likes or identifies with the candidate they support. Voter enthusiasm doesn't preclude a smart debate about policy, but ironically enough, calling your opponents deluded and obtuse does.

As for Krugman, I don't mind that he disagrees with Obama's healthcare plan or "post-partisan" style, but there is no doubt in my mind that political strategy is not his strength. He critiques the senator for echoing republican attack lines, but then fails to notice that by promising the electorate things that she can not deliver, ("jobs, jobs, jobs! tax holiday!") Hillary is the one undermining progressive politics. Obama has been successful so far because he just isn't interested in token wedge issues, and he won't tell you the grass is green when anyone who takes the time to look up can see that its blue.

May 4, 2008 1:08 AM

aeromonas said:

Anaabella, you said that Krugman's pissiness leads one "to tune him out as crotchey."

I think you meant "crotchety," though I must admit, as a coinage "crotchey"would seem to have some potential.

Some sentences in which "crotchey" might find its niche:

'Last night I rode this skank back to my crib and we got all crotchey.'

'Hey, you got some o' that Gold Bond powder?  If I don't get this crotchiness under control I'm gonna scratch myself to death.'

'That asshole?  Male slut, defined.  He's as crotchey as they come.'

'Adam, Romi, just leave the Vaseline gauze on until it comes off by itself.  Don't try to bath him for a day or two.  Give him a little Tylenol before bed and hopefully he won't get too crotchey.  If he bleeds more than a little spotting, give me a call.  Now pick a tree you think needs some help, and I'll bury it.  Don't laugh, it's a mitzvah!'

May 4, 2008 9:44 AM

anonevent said:

What the psychological term for Clinton supporters that call Obama supporters "cultists?"  Projection.

May 4, 2008 12:14 PM

mpatrickhendri said:

Jacobtl is like most of these bitter, math challenged Clinton partisans; he dismisses anyone in the Obama camp as a "cultist" or Obamaniac, or whatever. Give it a rest. There are millions of people, in fact more than Hillary, that have had months to take a good hard look at both players and a majority have decided to throw their support to Obama. Get over it, you big babies. Clinton had every advantage and still lost. That speaks volumnes. Much more than this boilerplated "fanatics" line that gets tossed around.

May 4, 2008 2:28 PM

lsernoff said:

Krugman is an economist who believes that anything not created by government is either of no consequence or harmful.  He has never found any policy favored by Republicans to be tolerable.  HRC is the ultimate government groupie, while BHO, though very liberal, has more respect for markets.  That, in a nutshell, explains Krugman's love of HRC and disdain for BHO.

May 4, 2008 3:49 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Jacobt:

"Cultists" tend to repeat the same thing over and over, mindlessly, without emotion or the appropriate context.

You seem to fit the bill.

You're also typical. Throughout the last few generations of politics/competition/sport, it is typical for a certain percentage of members of the losing side of a competition to assume that the members of the winning side are deluded, naive, cheating, not playing fair, etc.. You're a typical manifestation of this typical behavior. You're a statistic in a political scientist's textbook. Your existence is as predictable as a coin landing 50% of the time on heads.

I'm not surprised by your behavior. A certain percentage of Hillary supporters are destined act up and flail around irrationally, searching for a psychological scapegoat or rationalization for the loss of their candidate. It's human nature. We could not survive if we could not internalize losses using scapegoats or overwrought justifications.

The only thing that troubles me is that you expect anyone to take you seriously as you predictably go through the motions. You are a statistically probable outcome of a game between two competitors, nothing more, nothing less. The irony is that knowing this will not help you get over Hillary's loss. It's probably useful for you to keep believing what you believe about Obama supporters until the pain fades and you move on to other pursuits. So I say, "Keep it up!" Do what you need to do.

May 4, 2008 6:00 PM

virginiacentrist said:

Haha wow that was the most condescending thing I've ever written!

May 4, 2008 7:30 PM

citizenghost said:

Ah, those Obama Cultists!

This continues to be an amusing phenomenon -  the description of Obama supporters as "cultists."  

Of course a "cultist" is, evidently, anyone that dares to actually like the candidate they are supporting.  

It's fairly clear that  most Hillary supporters don't actually like Hillary - they simply see her as the least bad choice for America.  But because they are so clever and cynical that they can only dismiss the enthusiasim of Obama supporters as cultish -  never mind the merits of their arguments or the actual reasons why they support Obama over Clinton.    No, can't be bothered.  Clearly, Obama supporters are naive and brainwashed.

Talk about being elitist and bitter at the same time.  Jealous too.  

May 4, 2008 11:41 PM

GSpinks said:

jacob: we definitely don't accept garbage like "Obama cultists" as reasonable; and why do  you insist on calling names instead of putting out some proof, maybe a couple of links to examples?

...

Thanks for the link; now lets consider what you consider a valid argument against Obama:

- "this email I received today from an Obamite": oh yeah, lets hold the candidate responsible for having attracted some jackasses who make less-than-ideal surrogates...

- "He has taken the difficult issue of race and turned it into a Benetton commercial and wonders why Pennsylvania isn't buying it": interesting analysis, too bad he hasn't bothered to explain how the speech was a Benetton commercial, and why he thinks that PA isn't buying it. Hillary went into PA with a 20% lead in the polls, and was up by as much as 33% according to one poll; the fact that she only won by 9.2% contradicta this author's claim...

- He breathlessly compares his grandmother to the putrid Wright and wonders why his grand "speech" didn't take: obviously, this author missed the point that Obama was declaring that he was not going to throw anyone under the bus; not his grandmother, and not Wright. As for Wright, that is a second argument that I'd be willing to get into, but I think there are several people on this board who are tired of hearing me rant about that.

- "He has plagiarized speeches,": so close! except that Obama helped the "originator" of the speech come up with it in the first place, and was told to use that material by the "originator" (both facts supplied by the originator during an interview); he has never attempted to claim the material as his own (cite without reference does not equal plagiarism, and apologized for the incident.

- "lied about NAFTA": it is not a lie, or being two-faced, to state that he intends to attempt to renegotiate NAFTA, and will kill it if it can't be renegotiated to his satisfaction...

- "He has willfully associated with bigots, slumlords and terrorists to further his career": so have most politicians, this is nothing "new"; isn't Ayers teaching at some university in chicago now? and how did this terrorist get to be selected for sitting on the board of a big-name charity? hrm...

- "He has accomplished nothing of note in his public life ": damnable lie, unless "public life" actual means "US Senate", and "noteworthy" means sponsoring legislation; as for that much, I wouldn't expect much from a Jr Senator anyway, disingenious at best.

I was going to cite more from this author, but everything else was either 1) disingenious, 2) baseless, or 3) speculative. This definitely qualifies as "any arguments", but it does not even get to the point of being misleading because it does not try to lead the reader through any sort of logical process. On the whole, it looked like the scattered ramblings of a Neoconservative "stooge" who is trying to "game up" some recruits by claiming to be a reformed Obama supporter which implies he's actually followed a logical progression of disillusionment with Obama over the issues he mentions.

Anything else?

May 5, 2008 12:18 AM

GSpinks said:

blackton: probably for the same reason she does not poll well with the highly educated...

May 5, 2008 12:26 AM

GSpinks said:

damn, that sounds even better than I thought it would.

My apologies to the bright Hillary supporters we *do* have; polite/sincere debate/discussion is always welcome and appreciated!

May 5, 2008 12:34 AM

GSpinks said:

VC: I don't know, you've written some doozies... ;>

May 5, 2008 12:34 AM

jacobt1 said:

Cass Sunstein wrote in the beginning of his post:

"Reasonable people are making reasonable arguments for and against Barack Obama"

All I asked is for the name of such  reasonable person  who is  making reasonable arguments against Barack Obama.

So far I got no answer. I guess that in reality Cass Sunstein  and other Obama cultists don't believe that  reasonable people can possibly  make reasonable arguments  against Barack Obama.

They think that any argument against Barack Obama is a misleading racist attack.

May 5, 2008 2:17 AM

bigfish said:

jacobtl

"All I asked is for the name of such  reasonable person  who is  making reasonable arguments against Barack Obama."

I'll give you a few reasonable arguments against Obama:

John McCain is making a defensible argument for staying in Iraq until it is stable, saying that Obama's (and Clinton's) plans are unwise.

Many writers (some on TNR!) make reasonable arguments against Obama's healthcare plan, vis a vis Clinton's, in that hers is more truly universal.

A lot of people say that Obama doesn't have enough experience on the national stage, and that experience counts for more than he thinks it does.

Do I get a prize now, jacob?

May 5, 2008 1:11 PM

jacobt1 said:

Good boy, bigfish.

So, why are Krugman's arguments  not reasonable?

Notice, I'm not asking why Krugman's arguments are not correct.

How do we know that  an argument that we diagree with is reasonable or "Misleading Attack" ?

May 5, 2008 2:25 PM

bigfish said:

jacob, the opening post reads, in part:

"Krugman says that Obama is 'giving Republicans credit for good ideas they never had.'"

"Krugman objects, 'Mr. Obama's answer was puzzling because he gave credit where it isn't due.'"

Cass then goes on to show how Obama was telling the truth about some emissions trading ideas coming from Republicans.  If the facts and historical record clearly show that Republicans came up with these ideas, it is an UNFAIR ATTACK to say that credit isn't due to the Republicans who came up wit the ideas.  Opinions aren't facts, no matter how postmodern this age seems to be.

It is unfair to say Obama was giving credit where it isn't due when history plainly says that credit is due.  For Krugman to attack Obama for deviating from an untrue history is silliness.

I don't remember who said it, but I think the quote is apt.  "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts."

May 5, 2008 2:56 PM

jacobt1 said:

Well, Krugman actually wrote

"And it had also been accepted by leading Democrats. The Environmental Protection Agency began letting cities meet air-quality standards using emissions-trading systems during the Carter administration — which also led the way on deregulation of airlines and trucking."

Cass Sunstein didn't not adress this argument.

I don't know who is correct, reasonable people can disagree.  I just don't see what justification Cass Sunstein  has for smearing  Krugman  and  questioning  his integrity.

May 5, 2008 3:54 PM

sleepyavl said:

Jacobt1, of course you will get no example from Obama supporters. Look at these on TNR. Dare attack Obama and you will be labeled a racist - I was. These people tolerate no dissent. You see, it is not reasonable to dissent with the Anointed One.

May 13, 2008 1:11 AM

liberal reformer said:

As a Hillary supporter, Kruman has a dog in this hunt. I support Hillary, too, but Obama has a point here. What Cass Sunstein doesn't mention though, is that Jimmy Carter was responsible for trucking deregulation and other such initiatives. Sen. Edward Kennedy and his former top aide. Stephen Breyer, also supported such deregulation. So the picture here is perhaps a little more mixed than in this telling.

May 16, 2008 8:32 AM

psantillana said:

And the EPA was created under Nixon. That cross section in the glacier or permafrost or whatever it is in The Inconvenient Truth that they point to and say it was when the Clear Air Act took effect, 1970 - Nixon.

Ok, here's a reasonable criticism of Obama coming from me, a huge supporter: farm bill sucked, should have voted against it.

But mainly: why are you mad at Sunstein for saying there are reasonable arguments against Obama - I mean, why are you insisting on proof of this?

I guess it goes without saying, but I am addressing jacobtl. How come jacobtl is here and sleepy is on the plank/stump? they - you - should get to know each other and all.

May 28, 2008 4:17 AM

psantillana said:

Oh there he is!

May 28, 2008 4:17 AM

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